Combat so easy you are bored? Adjust your build?

Tarloch_S

I have on many occasions in game heard people complaining that combat is so easy they are bored with it. After a short time on this fourm digging around I'm seeing it as well.

I don't understand why the concept of adjusting your personal build to keep combat challenging to suit your personal preference is such a hard concept to understand.

Hypothesis
If meta builds offer players with lesser abilities the opportunity to succeed and players with higher abilities adjust builds to suit their difficulty preference...that's a good thing correct?

“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is — infinite.” ― William Blake

fizl101

Its not difficult to understand but if even playing naked or in white gear is still easy it doesnt make a difference.

Braffin

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590162/overland-content-feedback-thread#latest

As short summary, there are two major problems with "just nerf yourself":
- It's nothing else than "git gud" coming from the opposite direction and is in direct opposition to character development (which is one of the most important mechanics in any rpg, even if you play it as pen&paper)
- Most of us tried nerfing themselves, the results weren't exactly desireable, look for yourself

Braffin wrote: »

As the original thread was closed during video processing I'll post my personal experience with "fighting the troll" in this thread.

For this attempt following rules apply:

- Toon is lvl 50, all points in stam, no CP slotted.
- No armor, jewelry, buff food, pots and further unnecessary paraphernalia are applied.
- Weapons: 2x dagger CP 160, white, no trait, no enchants
- It's strictly a one-bar-"build" to keep things simple.
- Used skills: LA, HA, bloodthirst
- Mechanics of the troll were respected, as I refuse to simulate a complete moron. Scuttler avoided AoE quite well too (he is a veteran in the end)

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/GW_jTlNvqd8

Result: Definitely more tedious, but still braindead easy

The really interesting question is: Why do some players oppose an optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Tarloch_S

Braffin wrote: »

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

The really interesting question is: Why does some players oppose a optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Thanks. Since I'm so late to the forum party, Perhaps I should just stop and delve deeper into archived topics before posting.

Braffin

Tarloch_S wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

The really interesting question is: Why does some players oppose a optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Thanks. Since I'm so late to the forum party, Perhaps I should just stop and delve deeper into archived topics before posting.

Nothing wrong with asking

Enjoy the thread, it's quite a read.

Hoghorn

i found this game's overland questing mobs very easy on my first toon, wearing only quest rewards and mob drops. how could i nerf myself even more? meanwhile i know players who struggle when more than 2 bandits beat on them at once. i think a big part of the appeal of games like this is the pleasure of receiving each small new cool new ability or piece of gear. deliberately forgoing that to make mobs marginally more challenging removes a significant motivation to play. none of this means i think any sort of harder overland is likely or practical, this is just the easy mmo, god grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change.

SeaGtGruff

fizl101 wrote: »

Its not difficult to understand but if even playing naked or in white gear is still easy it doesnt make a difference.

But it isn't due to your gear. End-game players understand that very well when they tell others that they can't simply slap on golded-out gear of whatever the META sets happen to be and expect to magically be able to clear difficult content. The skills you slot and the rotations you use them in are actually more important. But even before that, the distribution of your APs and CPs is crucial in determining your max stats and your recovery rates. So instead of simply removing all of your gear, try doing an AP and CP respec-- for instance, try spreading your APs as evenly as possible between Mag, Stam, and Health, something like 21 Mag, 21 Stam, and 22 Health.

Braffin

And so we zerg world bosses nowadays: naked and fists only

kargen27

Braffin wrote: »

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590162/overland-content-feedback-thread#latest

As short summary, there are two major problems with "just nerf yourself":
- It's nothing else than "git gud" coming from the opposite direction and is in direct opposition to character development (which is one of the most important mechanics in any rpg, even if you play it as pen&paper)
- Most of us tried nerfing themselves, the results weren't exactly desireable, look for yourself

Braffin wrote: »

As the original thread was closed during video processing I'll post my personal experience with "fighting the troll" in this thread.

For this attempt following rules apply:

- Toon is lvl 50, all points in stam, no CP slotted.
- No armor, jewelry, buff food, pots and further unnecessary paraphernalia are applied.
- Weapons: 2x dagger CP 160, white, no trait, no enchants
- It's strictly a one-bar-"build" to keep things simple.
- Used skills: LA, HA, bloodthirst
- Mechanics of the troll were respected, as I refuse to simulate a complete moron. Scuttler avoided AoE quite well too (he is a veteran in the end)

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/GW_jTlNvqd8

Result: Definitely more tedious, but still braindead easy

The really interesting question is: Why do some players oppose an optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Many players have expressed an opinion I share. It isn't that we oppose veteran difficulty we just do not think it is feasible. A vet level instance of each zone would after a short time become mostly empty. Some players may choose to quest there but many would not. Players farming for gear or materials are going to stay away from vet mode. Fight mechanics for every creature you encounter would need to be reworked. Just making them stronger wouldn't make the fights any more fun. Would just make them last longer.
I would spend some time in a vet level instance if it were offered. I just don't think I or anyone else would spend enough time there to make developing it a worth while endeavor. To me it isn't feasible to have vet leveled overland content. Maybe public dungeons and things like that could offer a choice?

Braffin

kargen27 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590162/overland-content-feedback-thread#latest

As short summary, there are two major problems with "just nerf yourself":
- It's nothing else than "git gud" coming from the opposite direction and is in direct opposition to character development (which is one of the most important mechanics in any rpg, even if you play it as pen&paper)
- Most of us tried nerfing themselves, the results weren't exactly desireable, look for yourself

Braffin wrote: »

As the original thread was closed during video processing I'll post my personal experience with "fighting the troll" in this thread.

For this attempt following rules apply:

- Toon is lvl 50, all points in stam, no CP slotted.
- No armor, jewelry, buff food, pots and further unnecessary paraphernalia are applied.
- Weapons: 2x dagger CP 160, white, no trait, no enchants
- It's strictly a one-bar-"build" to keep things simple.
- Used skills: LA, HA, bloodthirst
- Mechanics of the troll were respected, as I refuse to simulate a complete moron. Scuttler avoided AoE quite well too (he is a veteran in the end)

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/GW_jTlNvqd8

Result: Definitely more tedious, but still braindead easy

The really interesting question is: Why do some players oppose an optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Many players have expressed an opinion I share. It isn't that we oppose veteran difficulty we just do not think it is feasible. A vet level instance of each zone would after a short time become mostly empty. Some players may choose to quest there but many would not. Players farming for gear or materials are going to stay away from vet mode. Fight mechanics for every creature you encounter would need to be reworked. Just making them stronger wouldn't make the fights any more fun. Would just make them last longer.
I would spend some time in a vet level instance if it were offered. I just don't think I or anyone else would spend enough time there to make developing it a worth while endeavor. To me it isn't feasible to have vet leveled overland content. Maybe public dungeons and things like that could offer a choice?

Sure, a full rework of all existing zones won't happen. Almost nobody is expecting that, I think. But the issue has to be adressed in general (your suggestion is a viable one, as are some others around). All we can do as players is sharing our experiences and expectations, it's on zos to react now.

I think with Necrom we already see they are at least trying to present a solution, and while of course not everyone is happy about the changes in detail (but which change did ever reach that?) we see even here on forums (which are not exactly famous for their high density of "sweatlords" nowadays) that players react well to the slightly increased difficulty and zos is moving in the right direction. Offer a veteran option for delves and public dungeons would be logical next step.

Nestor

I have been suggesting something like this since Morrowind, the Single Player Game. I usually get ganked on the forums....

People will always chase gear for the outcome they want. They just have a hard time gearing down for the outcome that makes the game harder.

TaSheen

At some point (perhaps not all that far in the future) I will no longer be able to play this game - because it WILL be too hard considering my limitations.

Sad. And I will be very sad to leave it.

Lumenn

kargen27 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590162/overland-content-feedback-thread#latest

As short summary, there are two major problems with "just nerf yourself":
- It's nothing else than "git gud" coming from the opposite direction and is in direct opposition to character development (which is one of the most important mechanics in any rpg, even if you play it as pen&paper)
- Most of us tried nerfing themselves, the results weren't exactly desireable, look for yourself

Braffin wrote: »

As the original thread was closed during video processing I'll post my personal experience with "fighting the troll" in this thread.

For this attempt following rules apply:

- Toon is lvl 50, all points in stam, no CP slotted.
- No armor, jewelry, buff food, pots and further unnecessary paraphernalia are applied.
- Weapons: 2x dagger CP 160, white, no trait, no enchants
- It's strictly a one-bar-"build" to keep things simple.
- Used skills: LA, HA, bloodthirst
- Mechanics of the troll were respected, as I refuse to simulate a complete moron. Scuttler avoided AoE quite well too (he is a veteran in the end)

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/GW_jTlNvqd8

Result: Definitely more tedious, but still braindead easy

The really interesting question is: Why do some players oppose an optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Many players have expressed an opinion I share. It isn't that we oppose veteran difficulty we just do not think it is feasible. A vet level instance of each zone would after a short time become mostly empty. Some players may choose to quest there but many would not. Players farming for gear or materials are going to stay away from vet mode. Fight mechanics for every creature you encounter would need to be reworked. Just making them stronger wouldn't make the fights any more fun. Would just make them last longer.
I would spend some time in a vet level instance if it were offered. I just don't think I or anyone else would spend enough time there to make developing it a worth while endeavor. To me it isn't feasible to have vet leveled overland content. Maybe public dungeons and things like that could offer a choice?

Couldn't agree more. I just personally think it wouldn't be cost efficient. Especially considering that even if you dark souled the whole thing there would STILL be people wanting it harder. And, as you said, a rework would be needed, not just longer fights. Vets already have the knowledge, muscle memory, and experience to make naked conquests trivial.

As for the direction zos went this time around I've seen both positive and negative comments. As it's still fairly new (especially on console) we'll have to wait and see if they have to give it the craglorn treatment or if it'll be enough for the ones wanting harder content and continue as is.

disintegr8

As someone who has 18 characters and regularly jumps on different ones to play, I don't find combat boring. If you only have 1 or 2 characters you do everything on, I could understand it might feel that way. Going from a Magplar that can solo a lot of content to a StamDK that might struggle keeps thing interesting.

merpins

I don't find combat boring. I find overland content boring because it's too easy. It poses no challenge. People say nerf yourself, but you can do any overland content in the game with nothing but your fists if you really want to. It just takes a bit longer and is hyper boring.

Veteran PVE players want a veteran overland option so we can do all the content in the game, even the old content no one is playing anymore, and actually use our good builds and maybe need another player with us to help us along the way, because overland content just poses no challenge. It has no incentives either, and a vet overland could bring in some kind of new reward system as well which would help with game retention which is overall a good thing for the game. But generally, the process of ESO is as follows: a new expansion comes out. If you're interested in PVE, you go to the new zone, do the quests in a day or less, and you never have any reason to go back to that zone except to do dailies 6 months later when they finally release motifs, that is if you even care.

To put it into perspective, I would want vet overland, for the difficulty, to do five things.
1. monsters in every zone are harder with more health. Not to the point that it's the same as a real vet dungeon, but something like a harder normal dungeon, or an easier vet dungeon. It's still primarily solo content after all. Definitely add some extra monsters that make sense in certain areas that freshen up combat, so there are at least some mechanics to be aware of. think of the statue heads that appear in Cradle of Shadows. doesn't need to be exactly that, but harder mobs and new mobs (even if they're just copy pasta'd from somewhere else) with mechanics would make it fun.
2. Delve bosses should have some mechanics and be about as hard as some of the harder normal dungeons, public dungeons should be about as hard as an easier vet dungeon, and world bosses should be on the level of a hard vet boss if not a trial boss.
3. Overland events, like Anchors, should be harder content as well, kind of like the waves in Vet Blackrose Prison.
4. All areas should have more monsters in general. Like with quests that tell you to protect an area or defeat waves of enemies only to have 1 or 2 enemies at a time come out. It should be actual waves of enemies. And areas in delves or even overland where there are enemies shouldn't cap at about 3, it should be much higher than that.
5. Delve bosses, world bosses, and the final boss of public dungeons should have a hard mode scroll/banner you can activate, like the final boss of vet dungeons. Just optional harder versions of vet overland bosses. Just make it so if you activate it, your party, or the people in the general area of the boss, gets instanced if you think it'd pose a problem to have jump-ins.

That's about it for difficulty, really. It doesn't need to be SUPER hard. It just needs to be challenging enough to be fun to run through, and maybe have extra rewards to incentivize it, even if the reward is just extra exp, though I'd love to see more than just that to make it really worth running through. It could also have more abundant resources throughout that you can get if you clear out areas of monsters or manage to sneak your way through. Could even limit teleportation through vet, and only have wayshrines in main towns and player homes (that might be tedious though, ngl).

But even if there are no extra rewards for running the content, I can't see people not running it. It's like plaything through easy mode on a videogame, and then just ignoring the harder difficulties despite having a prestige character that you can play the game again with, but on that harder difficulty. It doesn't make sense to me people saying it would have no one playing it, when solo games do that exact thing all the time.

BlueRaven

This conversation is the same as the sticky and should be closed.

Anyway, here is the main problem with a more difficult overland.

There is no fallback position for the players who don’t like it. Understand?

Vet trials, vet dungeons, regular trials, regular dungeons, public dungeons, arenas… The one thing they all have in common is that if a player finds them too difficult they have overland. They have a basic story they can solo and entertain them selves with it.

Zos makes overland more difficult, they have no place to go. There is no fall back position from that.

This game keeps chipping away at the casual common player, every time they seem to get an advantage they push them back and symbolically hit their nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Here is a ring!
Nope sorry too powerful, can’t let you be even slightly competitive.

Here is a more enjoyable combat rotation based on heavy attacks!
Nope, got to pull that back. You were almost at 50% of top end players! Can’t have that!

Necrom even took away public events from them.

And it’s beginning to show. Pvp event? I remember when the battle grounds were full. You had to wait to get into any of them. Now a bunch of them are empty, during an event!

Wbs? New chapter? Used to have huge groups farming them. No wait, always multiple people. Now they are mostly deserted.

Stop pushing away players. There is so much difficult content in this game. Utilize it. Let common, casual players enjoy themselves.

CP5

Optional, BlueRaven. Every piece of pve content outside of overland has optional difficulties. Is the mentality of "if ZOS does this it has to be forced" still this prevalent? Because all they would need to do is leverage the same thing they do in dungeons and trials, to modify the multiple different overland instances that already exist, to curate each to fit different players interest. Nothing needs to be "forced," and continuing to say that's the only option is to ignore how much of the game already works.

So, as per your own phrasing. Stop pushing experienced players away from the world of tamriel by making even world ending threats nothing more than boring tedium, by adding options.

TaSheen

@BlueRaven - all too true. Thanks for posting.

merpins

BlueRaven wrote: »

I don't want to replace normal overland. I just want an optional vet version is all. By all means, fix PVP problems and make battleground better first. But after that... Vet overland option.

Braffin

BlueRaven wrote: »

This conversation is the same as the sticky and should be closed.

Anyway, here is the main problem with a more difficult overland.

There is no fallback position for the players who don’t like it. Understand?

Vet trials, vet dungeons, regular trials, regular dungeons, public dungeons, arenas… The one thing they all have in common is that if a player finds them too difficult they have overland. They have a basic story they can solo and entertain them selves with it.

Zos makes overland more difficult, they have no place to go. There is no fall back position from that.

This game keeps chipping away at the casual common player, every time they seem to get an advantage they push them back and symbolically hit their nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Here is a ring!
Nope sorry too powerful, can’t let you be even slightly competitive.

Here is a more enjoyable combat rotation based on heavy attacks!
Nope, got to pull that back. You were almost at 50% of top end players! Can’t have that!

Necrom even took away public events from them.

And it’s beginning to show. Pvp event? I remember when the battle grounds were full. You had to wait to get into any of them. Now a bunch of them are empty, during an event!

Wbs? New chapter? Used to have huge groups farming them. No wait, always multiple people. Now they are mostly deserted.

Stop pushing away players. There is so much difficult content in this game. Utilize it. Let common, casual players enjoy themselves.

Optional difficulty adjustments don't take anything away from anyone. Repeating this false assumption won't make it true. That's nothing but a strawman.

The reference to HA builds isn't viable either, as only players in endgame content (said veteran instances) were affected, which the ominous "common casual player" your're talking about all the time isn't doing anyways, as this difficulty isn't made for them.

Yes, there are players around which outright refuse to evolve and adapt their builds for literally 10 years now, and that's legitimate. But every decision comes with consequences. In this case, if a player refuses to adapt, this player won't be able to do everything. It's as easy as that.

Do you really think zos reacted with necrom for no reason? Maybe take a look what people are talking about regarding eso difficulty anywhere offside this forums. Take reddit for example: people are laughing their backside off if they talk about difficulty. And zos slowly realizes that they are losing an enormous amount of money by catering only to the anti-veteran-crowd. They tried with U35 and now we experience the consequences.

Ugrak

Having to theorycraft self-nerf builds in order to achieve normal difficulty in lieu of proper balancing is not really acceptable, though it can certainly be done. It would be better then to increase the difficulty but enable a story-mode toggle for those who want to keep it fully casual.

ESO combat can be great fun when the pressure is on.

BlueRaven

CP5 wrote: »

Optional, BlueRaven. Every piece of pve content outside of overland has optional difficulties. Is the mentality of "if ZOS does this it has to be forced" still this prevalent? Because all they would need to do is leverage the same thing they do in dungeons and trials, to modify the multiple different overland instances that already exist, to curate each to fit different players interest. Nothing needs to be "forced," and continuing to say that's the only option is to ignore how much of the game already works.

So, as per your own phrasing. Stop pushing experienced players away from the world of tamriel by making even world ending threats nothing more than boring tedium, by adding options.

Budget.

Want a duplicate “vet” overland? Well it does not come free.

Additional server space, additional combat balance, are the rewards different? Well someone has to create those rewards, so more budget…

So we giving up the trials for this? Maybe no wbs anymore? No public dungeons? What gets axed to pay for this?

And let me tell you right now. Not having a new card deck (or something like that) is not going to give you the budget for what you want.

Sure, vet overland. While we are at it pve cyrodiil, story mode trials and dungeons, free crafting bag, double the house space, and a new class every chapter…

What else you want?

Braffin

BlueRaven wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Optional, BlueRaven. Every piece of pve content outside of overland has optional difficulties. Is the mentality of "if ZOS does this it has to be forced" still this prevalent? Because all they would need to do is leverage the same thing they do in dungeons and trials, to modify the multiple different overland instances that already exist, to curate each to fit different players interest. Nothing needs to be "forced," and continuing to say that's the only option is to ignore how much of the game already works.

So, as per your own phrasing. Stop pushing experienced players away from the world of tamriel by making even world ending threats nothing more than boring tedium, by adding options.

Budget.

Want a duplicate “vet” overland? Well it does not come free.

Additional server space, additional combat balance, are the rewards different? Well someone has to create those rewards, so more budget…

So we giving up the trials for this? Maybe no wbs anymore? No public dungeons? What gets axed to pay for this?

And let me tell you right now. Not having a new card deck (or something like that) is not going to give you the budget for what you want.

Sure, vet overland. While we are at it pve cyrodiil, story mode trials and dungeons, free crafting bag, double the house space, and a new class every chapter…

What else you want?

Here you have your answer: They axed a story zone for a new endless dungeon mode in Q4. They did so based on the data they gather all the time. And it was long overdue to do so.

BlueRaven

Braffin wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Optional, BlueRaven. Every piece of pve content outside of overland has optional difficulties. Is the mentality of "if ZOS does this it has to be forced" still this prevalent? Because all they would need to do is leverage the same thing they do in dungeons and trials, to modify the multiple different overland instances that already exist, to curate each to fit different players interest. Nothing needs to be "forced," and continuing to say that's the only option is to ignore how much of the game already works.

So, as per your own phrasing. Stop pushing experienced players away from the world of tamriel by making even world ending threats nothing more than boring tedium, by adding options.

Budget.

Want a duplicate “vet” overland? Well it does not come free.

Additional server space, additional combat balance, are the rewards different? Well someone has to create those rewards, so more budget…

So we giving up the trials for this? Maybe no wbs anymore? No public dungeons? What gets axed to pay for this?

And let me tell you right now. Not having a new card deck (or something like that) is not going to give you the budget for what you want.

Sure, vet overland. While we are at it pve cyrodiil, story mode trials and dungeons, free crafting bag, double the house space, and a new class every chapter…

What else you want?

Here you have your answer: They axed a story zone for a new endless dungeon mode in Q4. They did so based on the data they gather all the time. And it was long overdue to do so.

When I pointed that out, as the dlc was something else they took away from the common player, someone mentioned they also took out a dungeon pack.

So was not producing more four player dungeons something else “long overdue”?

Tarloch_S

All the conversations in game I had never heard anyone specify "overland" difficulty..so this was not even targeted at that.

I had decided not to post here and assumed it would be closed but here are a couple thoughts on difficulty in general and the overland debate.

There are other ways to increase difficulty in addition to resetting AP/CP as well. Go into options and make sure any and all combat notifications and UI elements are off. Turn off health/stamina/magic bars, play in first person...so forth and so on.

These - "nerf" or "git gud" are defiantly not the same. What level of "git gud" a person can achieve is restricted to the best they can be, adjusting a build is endless possibilities.

On the overland thing...
One could rationalize that making an overland build is no different than a group, trial or pvp build...other than it involves what some label "nerfing"...it's still just creating a build to match the situation...just like every other build. You hear people complaining all the time. Don't go into PVP with a PVE build, I hate PVE who go in dungeons with PVE gear, it's the worst when noobs show up in a trial not in trial gear...why don't people adjust the CP for "insert activity"...? idk :shrug:

Braffin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Optional, BlueRaven. Every piece of pve content outside of overland has optional difficulties. Is the mentality of "if ZOS does this it has to be forced" still this prevalent? Because all they would need to do is leverage the same thing they do in dungeons and trials, to modify the multiple different overland instances that already exist, to curate each to fit different players interest. Nothing needs to be "forced," and continuing to say that's the only option is to ignore how much of the game already works.

So, as per your own phrasing. Stop pushing experienced players away from the world of tamriel by making even world ending threats nothing more than boring tedium, by adding options.

Budget.

Want a duplicate “vet” overland? Well it does not come free.

Additional server space, additional combat balance, are the rewards different? Well someone has to create those rewards, so more budget…

So we giving up the trials for this? Maybe no wbs anymore? No public dungeons? What gets axed to pay for this?

And let me tell you right now. Not having a new card deck (or something like that) is not going to give you the budget for what you want.

Sure, vet overland. While we are at it pve cyrodiil, story mode trials and dungeons, free crafting bag, double the house space, and a new class every chapter…

What else you want?

Here you have your answer: They axed a story zone for a new endless dungeon mode in Q4. They did so based on the data they gather all the time. And it was long overdue to do so.

When I pointed that out, as the dlc was something else they took away from the common player, someone mentioned they also took out a dungeon pack.

So was not producing more four player dungeons something else “long overdue”?

Offering 4 dungeons to dungeoneers (to which I personally belong btw) while for example PvPers got the last relevant update years ago isn't healthy for the game. So my answer is yes, it was the right move, even if I personally lost some preferred content. Q3 should be dedicated to PvP starting with next year, that would be healthy.

Freelancer_ESO

Braffin wrote: »

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590162/overland-content-feedback-thread#latest

As short summary, there are two major problems with "just nerf yourself":
- It's nothing else than "git gud" coming from the opposite direction and is in direct opposition to character development (which is one of the most important mechanics in any rpg, even if you play it as pen&paper)
- Most of us tried nerfing themselves, the results weren't exactly desireable, look for yourself

Braffin wrote: »

As the original thread was closed during video processing I'll post my personal experience with "fighting the troll" in this thread.

For this attempt following rules apply:

- Toon is lvl 50, all points in stam, no CP slotted.
- No armor, jewelry, buff food, pots and further unnecessary paraphernalia are applied.
- Weapons: 2x dagger CP 160, white, no trait, no enchants
- It's strictly a one-bar-"build" to keep things simple.
- Used skills: LA, HA, bloodthirst
- Mechanics of the troll were respected, as I refuse to simulate a complete moron. Scuttler avoided AoE quite well too (he is a veteran in the end)

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/GW_jTlNvqd8

Result: Definitely more tedious, but still braindead easy

The really interesting question is: Why do some players oppose an optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Because it's an ineffective usage of resources in my view.

Both Cyrodiil and the Imperial City have some phenomenal content that I think people are missing out on due to the PvP modes that they are attached to that in my view are beyond cost effectively saving. It's a waste to use them to draw people into modes that will simply never fly in their current iteration.

I could be mistaken but, my impression is that it would be relatively cheap to spin up an additional instance that has tweaks so that the PvP is off/effectively off and to cut down on the loot. (It might end up being a bit of a hackish solution like you see in Battlegrounds where players have their faction overwritten.)

Based on your complaints about Overland it's likely the only solutions that would work for you would be changing the abilities/ability usage of npcs and that would definitely be a significant amount of work to attempt in most areas (Some areas with high rates of npc repetition or areas where you have similar npcs that offer higher difficulties elsewhere might not be that bad but, other areas would be an absolute mess). (I'd assume the instancing would be relatively manageable)

From the games I've played over the past couple decades developers have a pretty lousy record of designing content for the top section of the game (despite constantly attempting to do it.) and having them end up happy. Further, in the majority of the games I've played over the two decades the population at the top tended to not care much about story content and tended to be highly results oriented. Finally, ESO has a relatively low skill player base and a significant gear gap and as such I would not expect many players to actually be able to complete the content if it is actually hard enough to be challenging to the top.

So, I don't expect implementing it would be cheap. I don't expect them to actually succeed on their first attempt. I don't expect the people at the top to actually use it much even it if does work out for them. I don't expect many of the people outside the top will be able to do it if it does work for the top.

It might be possible to cost effectively make a Veteran Overland that works for people that just want things a bit harder as you can do that potentially with just some numbers tweaks but, I wouldn't expect one that satisfies you to ever be cost effective.

CP5

BlueRaven wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

Optional, BlueRaven. Every piece of pve content outside of overland has optional difficulties. Is the mentality of "if ZOS does this it has to be forced" still this prevalent? Because all they would need to do is leverage the same thing they do in dungeons and trials, to modify the multiple different overland instances that already exist, to curate each to fit different players interest. Nothing needs to be "forced," and continuing to say that's the only option is to ignore how much of the game already works.

So, as per your own phrasing. Stop pushing experienced players away from the world of tamriel by making even world ending threats nothing more than boring tedium, by adding options.

Budget.

Want a duplicate “vet” overland? Well it does not come free.

Additional server space, additional combat balance, are the rewards different? Well someone has to create those rewards, so more budget…

So we giving up the trials for this? Maybe no wbs anymore? No public dungeons? What gets axed to pay for this?

And let me tell you right now. Not having a new card deck (or something like that) is not going to give you the budget for what you want.

Sure, vet overland. While we are at it pve cyrodiil, story mode trials and dungeons, free crafting bag, double the house space, and a new class every chapter…

What else you want?

We got companions, many players don't care about those, but they required a lot of resources to even make.

We got a card game, many players don't care about those, but they required a lot of resources to even make.

ZOS has the flexibility to keep content to its current standard, but the "what's new this chapter" cycles, so what if it's a vet overland or pvp overhaul? I expect ZOS to care and try to do something rather than silence, I'm not expecting them to snap their fingers and make something flawless happen.

Braffin

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Well, this topic were discussed a lot in a sticky thread regarding overland difficulty. Look here, if you're interested:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/590162/overland-content-feedback-thread#latest

As short summary, there are two major problems with "just nerf yourself":
- It's nothing else than "git gud" coming from the opposite direction and is in direct opposition to character development (which is one of the most important mechanics in any rpg, even if you play it as pen&paper)
- Most of us tried nerfing themselves, the results weren't exactly desireable, look for yourself

Braffin wrote: »

As the original thread was closed during video processing I'll post my personal experience with "fighting the troll" in this thread.

For this attempt following rules apply:

- Toon is lvl 50, all points in stam, no CP slotted.
- No armor, jewelry, buff food, pots and further unnecessary paraphernalia are applied.
- Weapons: 2x dagger CP 160, white, no trait, no enchants
- It's strictly a one-bar-"build" to keep things simple.
- Used skills: LA, HA, bloodthirst
- Mechanics of the troll were respected, as I refuse to simulate a complete moron. Scuttler avoided AoE quite well too (he is a veteran in the end)

Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/GW_jTlNvqd8

Result: Definitely more tedious, but still braindead easy

The really interesting question is: Why do some players oppose an optional veteran difficulty for overland so fervent, while they demand the very same splitting of the playerbase in other connections (like for example PvP)?

Because it's an ineffective usage of resources in my view.

Both Cyrodiil and the Imperial City have some phenomenal content that I think people are missing out on due to the PvP modes that they are attached to that in my view are beyond cost effectively saving. It's a waste to use them to draw people into modes that will simply never fly in their current iteration.

I could be mistaken but, my impression is that it would be relatively cheap to spin up an additional instance that has tweaks so that the PvP is off/effectively off and to cut down on the loot. (It might end up being a bit of a hackish solution like you see in Battlegrounds where players have their faction overwritten.)

Based on your complaints about Overland it's likely the only solutions that would work for you would be changing the abilities/ability usage of npcs and that would definitely be a significant amount of work to attempt in most areas (Some areas with high rates of npc repetition or areas where you have similar npcs that offer higher difficulties elsewhere might not be that bad but, other areas would be an absolute mess). (I'd assume the instancing would be relatively manageable)

From the games I've played over the past couple decades developers have a pretty lousy record of designing content for the top section of the game (despite constantly attempting to do it.) and having them end up happy. Further, in the majority of the games I've played over the two decades the population at the top tended to not care much about story content and tended to be highly results oriented. Finally, ESO has a relatively low skill player base and a significant gear gap and as such I would not expect many players to actually be able to complete the content if it is actually hard enough to be challenging to the top.

So, I don't expect implementing it would be cheap. I don't expect them to actually succeed on their first attempt. I don't expect the people at the top to actually use it much even it if does work out for them. I don't expect many of the people outside the top will be able to do it if it does work for the top.

It might be possible to cost effectively make a Veteran Overland that works for people that just want things a bit harder as you can do that potentially with just some numbers tweaks but, I wouldn't expect one that satisfies you to ever be cost effective.

That's a whole lot assumptions and expectations solely based on your personal preference. 🤔

And no, I don't expect vma in overland, but would indeed be fine with tweaked numbers personally. Not harder to do than PvE cyrodiil and less gamebreaking on top of that.

Btw: if you're correct when you say eso has a low skilled playerbase, where do all the complaints about difficulty come from, some people here are arguing against all the time? Maybe this forum isn't representative for the general playerbase anymore, if it ever was.

Denying an existing problem won't solve anything.

Janni

Tarloch_S wrote: »

I have on many occasions in game heard people complaining that combat is so easy they are bored with it. After a short time on this fourm digging around I'm seeing it as well.

I don't understand why the concept of adjusting your personal build to keep combat challenging to suit your personal preference is such a hard concept to understand.

Hypothesis
If meta builds offer players with lesser abilities the opportunity to succeed and players with higher abilities adjust builds to suit their difficulty preference...that's a good thing correct?

“If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is — infinite.” ― William Blake

The problem is that we spent time and effort coming up with that build to function in that way. Altering the build to make things harder is exactly what you said... ALTERING THE BUILD. which by extension means we aren't playing the build we created anymore. So what's the point?

Vhozek

No amount of debuff on yourself with the systems currently in the game will make the low level experience feel like a low level experience.
You will not feel like you're progressing.
You will not feel like you're fighting enemies.
You will not feel important due to the threats of the world not being important themselves, therefore diminishing the need for a hero like you.

The only thing that comes close to this is getting to max level and then pretending you are a low level character because of how the scaling works. This doesn't work either because you're again, not progressing any further, pretending you're fighting anything when you're just max level and thus being unimportant.

It truly comes down to the freaking director realizing he didn't get it right the first time when he decided to go from "hard game" to "ToggleGodMode".