Tri-Focus passive on Sorcs is overperforming.

jaws343

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's not overperforming - it's outright bugged. Tri-Focus bypasses battle spirit, so all of those nerfs to remove Heavy Attack sets and Empower from PvP mean nothing. You can stack tons of heavy attack damage against mobs and kill players with the passive since none of the damage will be mitigated.

It's egregious that this has been in the game for going on 2 years now. It's not balanced, actively goes against rules for combat that ZOS has put in place, and has little to no counterplay besides "Don't farm bosses lol". Those ticks on your recap are even low - I've seen as high as 45k damage in 2 dot ticks and another 30k from the final tick.

The 2h passive that applies splash damage to your light and heavy attacks are also bugged in the same way.

But it bypassing battle spirit is intentional, not a bug. It is done that way to prevent double dipping battlespirit against the passive.

All they need to do is disable empower with battle spirit. Leave the actual functioning properly passive alone

And as I've said before when you've made this same reply on other posts, it is only supposed to bypass Battle Spirit if the initial target is a player. If the initial target is a mob, it should still be going through Battle Spirit before damaging players in the area but it doesn't.

It is not functioning properly in that circumstance. No damage should ever bypass Battle Spirit completely, especially if that damage includes modifiers that aren't even supposed to affect players in the first place.

That is not how those mechanics have ever worked.

Battle spirit is always applied on the initial damage and damage dependent on that is applied without.

In this case, they ramped up the damage against NPCs.

The way the passive and other damage abilities like it function remain unchanged.

You guys keep calling it a bug, as if it isn't performing exactly how it is supposed it perform.

It is performing as expected. That is not a bug.

Should it be adjusted? Yes. Should it be done at the passive level? Absolutely not. You would effectively make the passive worthless to fix a simple empower adjustment. Because there are ZERO damage dependent secondary damages that have different battle spirit effects. They all only apply battle spirit against the initial damage source to prevent the splash damage from being reduced by battle spirit effectively twice.

Except it isn't performing exactly how it's supposed to perform. It isn't supposed to tick on players for well over 20k a tick.

If you write code and have a logic error, the code is working as written. That doesn't mean it's working as intended, and logic errors are still considered bugs. Just because things aren't supposed to be double hit by Battle Spirit doesn't mean that they should completely bypass Battle Spirit either. Heavy Attack modifiers that are supposed to only work on mobs are never supposed to work on players. Damage against players should always be reduced by Battle Spirit. Tri-Focus currently breaks both of those rules.

It is working as intended. Not as desired. Important distinction.

There is no bug here. Trifocus has always worked like this, by design.

Trifocus does not need to be touched. Only empower needs to be adjusted here.

Intended and desired mean the same thing. Tri-Focus is not doing either, unless targeting a player. I'm not sure why you're picking this hill to die on. Tri-Focus does not work as intended when targeting a mob, as it is allowing modifiers only intended for mobs to hit players.

Empower already only works against mobs, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say that's what needs to be changed. Fix Tri-Focus.

Tri focus was literally designed to work the way it currently works. Intended.

The desired effect is what you are describing. You desire it not to work the way it was intended to work.

The reason for that desire is that the adjustment to empower has made the intended effect overperform.

None of this describes a bug at all.

Empower should be disabled with battle spirit because the actual problem is empower.

I dont think you understand what the words "intended" and "desired" mean.

Desired:
adjective
strongly wished for or intended.

The important word there is OR.

For Zos, the intent and desire for the passive seem to be the same. No battle spirit application by designer.

For players wanting a nerf, that is their desired action. I use the two differently to express the intended function of the passive and the player's wish for the function to be.

CameraBeardThePirate

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

It's not overperforming - it's outright bugged. Tri-Focus bypasses battle spirit, so all of those nerfs to remove Heavy Attack sets and Empower from PvP mean nothing. You can stack tons of heavy attack damage against mobs and kill players with the passive since none of the damage will be mitigated.

It's egregious that this has been in the game for going on 2 years now. It's not balanced, actively goes against rules for combat that ZOS has put in place, and has little to no counterplay besides "Don't farm bosses lol". Those ticks on your recap are even low - I've seen as high as 45k damage in 2 dot ticks and another 30k from the final tick.

The 2h passive that applies splash damage to your light and heavy attacks are also bugged in the same way.

But it bypassing battle spirit is intentional, not a bug. It is done that way to prevent double dipping battlespirit against the passive.

All they need to do is disable empower with battle spirit. Leave the actual functioning properly passive alone

And as I've said before when you've made this same reply on other posts, it is only supposed to bypass Battle Spirit if the initial target is a player. If the initial target is a mob, it should still be going through Battle Spirit before damaging players in the area but it doesn't.

It is not functioning properly in that circumstance. No damage should ever bypass Battle Spirit completely, especially if that damage includes modifiers that aren't even supposed to affect players in the first place.

That is not how those mechanics have ever worked.

Battle spirit is always applied on the initial damage and damage dependent on that is applied without.

In this case, they ramped up the damage against NPCs.

The way the passive and other damage abilities like it function remain unchanged.

You guys keep calling it a bug, as if it isn't performing exactly how it is supposed it perform.

It is performing as expected. That is not a bug.

Should it be adjusted? Yes. Should it be done at the passive level? Absolutely not. You would effectively make the passive worthless to fix a simple empower adjustment. Because there are ZERO damage dependent secondary damages that have different battle spirit effects. They all only apply battle spirit against the initial damage source to prevent the splash damage from being reduced by battle spirit effectively twice.

Except it isn't performing exactly how it's supposed to perform. It isn't supposed to tick on players for well over 20k a tick.

If you write code and have a logic error, the code is working as written. That doesn't mean it's working as intended, and logic errors are still considered bugs. Just because things aren't supposed to be double hit by Battle Spirit doesn't mean that they should completely bypass Battle Spirit either. Heavy Attack modifiers that are supposed to only work on mobs are never supposed to work on players. Damage against players should always be reduced by Battle Spirit. Tri-Focus currently breaks both of those rules.

It is working as intended. Not as desired. Important distinction.

There is no bug here. Trifocus has always worked like this, by design.

Trifocus does not need to be touched. Only empower needs to be adjusted here.

Intended and desired mean the same thing. Tri-Focus is not doing either, unless targeting a player. I'm not sure why you're picking this hill to die on. Tri-Focus does not work as intended when targeting a mob, as it is allowing modifiers only intended for mobs to hit players.

Empower already only works against mobs, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say that's what needs to be changed. Fix Tri-Focus.

Tri focus was literally designed to work the way it currently works. Intended.

The desired effect is what you are describing. You desire it not to work the way it was intended to work.

The reason for that desire is that the adjustment to empower has made the intended effect overperform.

None of this describes a bug at all.

Empower should be disabled with battle spirit because the actual problem is empower.

I dont think you understand what the words "intended" and "desired" mean.

Desired:
adjective
strongly wished for or intended.

The important word there is OR.

For Zos, the intent and desire for the passive seem to be the same. No battle spirit application by designer.

For players wanting a nerf, that is their desired action. I use the two differently to express the intended function of the passive and the player's wish for the function to be.

The intended behavior is to not double dip in Battle Spirit. That doesn't mean that it's intended to completely ignore Battle Spirit. It's intended to be hit by Battle Spirit once. Not twice, not nonce, but once. Arguing that it's supposed to completely bypass Battle Spirit is just being difficult.

Dagoth_Rac

My guess is the game does not store a history of "original intended target" when you take damage. So when you take that splash damage from tri-focus (or the 2H passive), the game literally does not know if the original target was another player or an NPC. So this might be an issue where they would need to make changes to some core combat code to store and track the history of secondary sources of damage. Which might be tricky. Or might introduce performance issues in a PVP environment that is already straining.

Right now, Tri-Focus splash damage off an NPC hits a player for 3.4x as much damage as the same hit applied directly to a player. There is no way that is intended. There is undoubtedly some underlying complication that makes it hard to change without gimping heavy attack builds in Imperial City/PVP.

StackonClown

So are we saying the upcoming tri focus nerf is related to PVP feedback after all ?

CameraBeardThePirate

StackonClown wrote: »

So are we saying the upcoming tri focus nerf is related to PVP feedback after all ?

PvP is a part of it yes, but saying it's a "PvP change" is misunderstanding what makes the passive effective.

The problem is that the Tri-Focus passive on a Lightning Staff is ~5x more powerful than any other staff. As a result, it also makes any heavy attack set have an absurdly high impact on Lightning Staves when compared to anything else. If the set was only intended to increase heavy attack damage by 2000, but is actually increasing Lightning Staff heavies by 10,000 damage, that's a pretty big imbalance.