Theory crafting is dead in PvP

taugrim

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Darn no responses! I was looking forward to this discussion all day at work! I was hoping someone else might've shared some of their off-meta success stories.

The thing with off-meta builds is that you have to be a very strong PvPer to pull off kills, but it doesn’t mean you can equally compete with someone in a meta build who’s as good as you.

For example I’ve tried a health recovery build in the current meta. Health recovery is a dead stat in PvP, everyone knows that. The highest I could get to was a little more than 3000 health regen, and that took sacrificing 3 dmg sets, Undeath, and a bunch of other stuff. Could I kill an average player? Sure, I could do that with any build. But the moment I run into someone competent, I tend to lose more. I know I would have a higher winning chance if I wore something like Rallying Cry and Essence Thief.

I think using health recovery as an example is the far extreme. Health recovery is devalued because it's halved by Battle Spirit.

People tend to stick to meta sets because they don't have the patience, creativity, funds, or willingness to lose in service of learning.

But there are plenty of good to great options available, if people are willing to experiment.

StaticWave wrote: »

Now, if you're not slotting Rallying Cry you're going to have a higher chance of losing against someone with it, assuming both of you are equal in skill. If you're not slotting Master DW, you're probably going to lose more. If you're not slotting Maarselok or Zaan, you're definitely going to lose almost all of the time.

I've slotted RC 1% of the time in PVP.
I've slotted Master DW 2% of the time in PVP.
I've slotted Maarselk and Zaan 0% of the time in PVP, partly because I don't have Zaan.

There are ways to be meaningfully successful outside of the meta, but like I said it requires desire to experiment and patience, and not everyone has that.

OBJnoob

Desire to experiment, patience, and being okay with not always being the best. If being good is good enough for you then you can have a lot of fun in this game. If you focus mainly on comparing your theorycrafted builds to how they perform against other very good players in meta gear then you'll spend a lot of time disappointed. Don't call a build not-viable because you lose to these 15 people when there are 100 people you can beat.

There should be some sets that work better on some classes than others. There are a few. Of the more universally helpful sets there should be relative balance. Things could be better in this regard. BUT we need relative balance not literal balance. Because the only thing that will kill theorycrafting more than a few sets being obviously OP is every set being the same. Think about it. Okay so now you can use all the sets in the game! But what's the fun in theorizing if every result is equally good?

It is not only important to theory crafting that some sets are in fact better, but it is also important to the progression of the game. PvP isn't supposed to stand alone. There needs to be incentives for people to buy DLCs, grind skill lines, do trials and arenas. There needs to be rewards for these things. And we as PvPers that like to call ourselves good just need to accept that character building and gear choosing are parts of the skill in this game, even if that metric isn't as differentiating as reflexes, lining up combos, and animation canceling are.

I think theory crafting is dead (if we're going to say it is,) for a very different reason.

We're in a new age of video games. Players have access to ridiculous amounts of tools and knowledge. PTS servers, patch notes, forums, combat metrics, streamers. There's no fun in theorizing what works best because we all know, with the unshakable certainty of math, what works best. In games and decades prior only the lucky or truly hardcore would stumble across the winning combination and there weren't ways to disseminate that knowledge en masse. What made those players so good used to be a mystery-- something to aspire for-- a reason to craft theories. Now? People know what's going to be best before the patch even drops.

So if you want to have fun theorycrafting builds you really just have to settle for 2nd best. Cuz there's nothing the game can do to help you there.

It was a theorycrafter that found out savage Werewolf was good. And it was also theorycrafters who mathed out why, declared it broken, and got it nerfed. Theorycrafting, as you want it to be @StaticWave has been rendered into more or less a state of bug, exploit, and broken mechanic finding.

taugrim

OBJnoob wrote: »

We're in a new age of video games. Players have access to ridiculous amounts of tools and knowledge. PTS servers, patch notes, forums, combat metrics, streamers. There's no fun in theorizing what works best because we all know, with the unshakable certainty of math, what works best.

You are absolutely right that players have incredible access to knowledge.

That said — and this has been true for over 15 years in the PVP I've played across MMORPGs — there are narratives that become popularized to the point of dismissing any other ideas...

And a great example of that is this:

OBJnoob wrote: »

It was a theorycrafter that found out savage Werewolf was good. And it was also theorycrafters who mathed out why, declared it broken, and got it nerfed.

I can't remember the EU player's name, but when he introduced his Bow/Bow Savage Wolf build, it was pretty novel for most of the players.

Objectively, Savage Werewolf was overpowered, it's just that most didn't realize it because they hadn't experimented with it with other synergistic mechanics. Or IOW, it deserved to get nerfed.

But that doesn't change the fact that a very different playstyle was identified by one player who came up with it.

OBJnoob wrote: »

Theorycrafting, as you want it to be @StaticWave has been rendered into more or less a state of bug, exploit, and broken mechanic finding.

There are plenty of people who leverage things that are broken, e.g. I recently learned that Flame Blossom can fire multiple times. I considered Mara's Balm to be faceroll OP.

I also don't believe relying on things that are likely to get balanced (e.g. Savage Werewolf, and Mara's Balm is finally after 4-5 nerfs is much more close to balance) is a good idea, because they'll eventually get addressed.

But not everyone wants to win with cheese, and there are plenty of smart players coming up with relatively unknown combinations of gears and skills that others simply haven't bothered to consider and meaningfully test.

StaticWave

taugrim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Darn no responses! I was looking forward to this discussion all day at work! I was hoping someone else might've shared some of their off-meta success stories.

The thing with off-meta builds is that you have to be a very strong PvPer to pull off kills, but it doesn’t mean you can equally compete with someone in a meta build who’s as good as you.

For example I’ve tried a health recovery build in the current meta. Health recovery is a dead stat in PvP, everyone knows that. The highest I could get to was a little more than 3000 health regen, and that took sacrificing 3 dmg sets, Undeath, and a bunch of other stuff. Could I kill an average player? Sure, I could do that with any build. But the moment I run into someone competent, I tend to lose more. I know I would have a higher winning chance if I wore something like Rallying Cry and Essence Thief.

I think using health recovery as an example is the far extreme. Health recovery is devalued because it's halved by Battle Spirit.

People tend to stick to meta sets because they don't have the patience, creativity, funds, or willingness to lose in service of learning.

But there are plenty of good to great options available, if people are willing to experiment.

StaticWave wrote: »

Now, if you're not slotting Rallying Cry you're going to have a higher chance of losing against someone with it, assuming both of you are equal in skill. If you're not slotting Master DW, you're probably going to lose more. If you're not slotting Maarselok or Zaan, you're definitely going to lose almost all of the time.

I've slotted RC 1% of the time in PVP.
I've slotted Master DW 2% of the time in PVP.
I've slotted Maarselk and Zaan 0% of the time in PVP, partly because I don't have Zaan.

There are ways to be meaningfully successful outside of the meta, but like I said it requires desire to experiment and patience, and not everyone has that.

I used health recovery because it is an example of build diversity being removed from the game. At the time, HP regen was an alternative to vampire stage 3. You had the option to build for HP regen and forgo Undeath passive, or forgo HP regen and get Undeath. Now you have to get Undeath because HP regen is a dead stat.

You primarily play BG, and RC greatly diminishes there. RC is very needed for solo PvP and any small-scale PvP because you're fighting a lot more people than a simple 4v4v4. You probably don't slot mDW or Maarselok or Zaan because your build doesn't require it, but meta builds include all of them.

I'm not saying non-meta builds don't work, I'm saying they only work because of the player. You're a good PvPer, and you can probably make most builds work. But that doesn't change the point that you are at a greater disadvantage when you do run into people who are as good as you and also in meta builds.

OBJnoob

Quick interlude... Why is Zaans meta? It's been brought up like twice now. I have seen everything else a lot, but I don't think Ive seen much Zaans on Xbox NA.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Quick interlude... Why is Zaans meta? It's been brought up like twice now. I have seen everything else a lot, but I don't think Ive seen much Zaans on Xbox NA.

Because unless you have a purge or streak, you're going to die if it's on you.

OBJnoob

Yeah. I mean, I remember when it first came out. It was pretty much a death sentence. Then they nerfed it pretty hard and I thought it more or less went out of existence.

The proc condition seems hard to plan and I thought the damage wasn't all that anymore. Just wondering what changed.

JerBearESO

Zaans is pretty easy to LoS before it ramps up.... I think, and I say this respectfully, StaticWave must base most things on a dueling point of view? I don't duel but I see how balance would work differently in that outlet since there essentially is no LoS or teammates taking focus while you dip out, so things that ramp up over time are pretty OP there specifically I assume.

TechMaybeHic

JerBearESO wrote: »

Zaans is pretty easy to LoS before it ramps up.... I think, and I say this respectfully, StaticWave must base most things on a dueling point of view? I don't duel but I see how balance would work differently in that outlet since there essentially is no LoS or teammates taking focus while you dip out, so things that ramp up over time are pretty OP there specifically I assume.

Even outside of dueling; it's kind of obnoxious that the game devolves into "run around LOS" to counter X". Radiant Oppression; LOS, Arcanist beam; LOS A lot of things like Vate destro, you can't even purge and have to LOS. Corrosive armor? Just run away. The list goes on. Not to mention, the reason it's paired with master dual wield is so that you still take damage.

When I'm outnumbered; I do it as well and try to single out a burst opportunity but at some point, it would be nice if the tactic was to fight rather than just run around.

StaticWave

JerBearESO wrote: »

Zaans is pretty easy to LoS before it ramps up.... I think, and I say this respectfully, StaticWave must base most things on a dueling point of view? I don't duel but I see how balance would work differently in that outlet since there essentially is no LoS or teammates taking focus while you dip out, so things that ramp up over time are pretty OP there specifically I assume.

I do BGs and Cyrodiil a lot. My stamsorc is also a Grand Overlord. I don't just base my opinion on dueling alone lol. I duel when waiting for BG queues and for when Cyrodiil is too laggy for me to play.

Like i've said, Zaan is really hard to get away unless you have Cloak, Streak, or a full cleanse. Some group comps specifically abuse this mechanic by stacking multiple Zaans on 1 single person to kill that guy through cross heals.

Anti_Virus

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yeah Ravenwatch is mostly dead on Xbox NA too. But that's kinda beside the point, isn't it? I mean the only way I can make that a defense of your plan is if I assume your conclusion is "so who cares about balance there?" But I do, cuz that's where I play.

New Moon is already strong there. You add another 100 weapon damage and it'll be the only thing anyone uses.

I'm not sure the disparity between 5piece stat sets and 5piece proc sets is really the issue. The change they made to where procs scale off of stats was a good one. Someone wearing maras and way of fire for instance really shouldn't be capable of much damage theoretically. What the culprit really seems to be, to me, is certain mythics and monster sets that rival or even exceed 5piece bonuses without taking up many slots in your build.

Someone wearing Maras and, I dunno, RoA for instance-- really isn't capable of much damage. You're supposed to have to build for damage to make the proc powerful. But you add 1000 base weapon damage to everybody, then throw sea serpents coil in there, and voila you're a powerhouse.

Major courage AND major berserk? A little excessive for a single piece of gear isn't it? Who even needs New Moon?

To actually fix this game you're gonna need a more fundamental overhaul than just balancing sets. And nobody will honestly be on board with it. Because the same things elite players complain about are the same things that help them be elite. Their favorite aspect of the game is that one person can run around tanking 5 people while retaining the capability to kill them also... And run 100mph all the while, never hurting for sustain. But you get 12 people together who do the same thing and "whoa whoa whoa that's ruining the game."

The game needs to return to the trinity where every DD isn't a healer of preposterous power. Healing needs to be at least partially uncoupled from damage. It just does. And this will basically destroy Xing for all but the best of the best. But it's the only answer. If you don't want players who aren't as good as you to survive against you then you're gonna have to give up your ability to fight 5 people.

There's no way to keep casual players from closing the gap on elites when elites are crutching on gear also. The only way to reintroduce the skill gap is to make the game harder for everybody. But people don't want that they just say they do. Nobody wants to get killed by a glass cannon build. They catch the glass cannon out in the open, kill them, decide they're trash, and the next time the glass cannon does manage to kill them "Oo my heals aren't strong enough-- scavenging demise does too much damage-- this person isn't a good player he's being carried by his gear-- I know for a fact he's trash because whenever it's a fair fight I win." People say they want the game to have a rock paper scissors feel to it, but any changes so all-consuming that they themselves can't be all 3 would be unacceptable to them.

Any 3 people-- not super good but that know how to play-- actively targeting and pressing offensive buttons... Should wreck all but the best players in short order. The thought that any one person is 3x better than anyone except a total rookie is nonsense. The game just isn't that complicated. The same mechanisms that allow the elites to feed their egos is what they are now complaining about. The exact same.

I would click agree 1000 times on this post if I could

Alchimiste1

jarlragnar wrote: »

The reason theory crafting is dead is because as much as you craft you can take that build into cyrodiil or IC and have someone take no damage but turn around and kill you. All the top sweaty players use exploits in the game or run cheat engines that can’t be detected or they run scripts. 50%~60% of pvp players do this.

Lmao

StaticWave

@OBJnoob

I forgot to comment on one of your previous points, but I don’t think PvP was harder in the past by any sense.

It’s weird how 1vXing was EASIER despite sets being no where near as stat dense as they are now. I could comfortably 1v5 back in the day in a full damage build. Now not so much, that would be suicidal.

I think the biggest issue is just high HP in general. 18-19k HP was the norm for the vast majority of builds, and only healers and tanks were breaching 30-40k HP.

The simplest thing ZoS can do now that has the most impact is lowering max HP for PvP through Battle Spirit. We would instantly see more fights end quicker as 24-25k HP become the new average HP in PvP.

sabresandiego_ESO

I always run semi weird stuff combined with meta stuff in battlegrounds. I think there is still a lot of diversity but it’s probably the least it’s ever been because I see master DW and vate destro staff more than anything far too commonly.

OBJnoob

I'm on board with nerfing max HP through battlespirit-- I agree it's needed and I agree it's the easiest thing to do, in the short term, to address the problem.

But I think some other things would have to be done at the same time.

The two strongest classes right now are DK and NB. They have the best damage. They also have some of the strongest damage mitigation and avoidance tools that aren't reliant on max HP. If we just suddenly steal 5k of everyone's HP, which classes come out on top? I think it's them. The DK is still only taking 3% damage when he's doing his thing and the NB can still be invisible when not doing his.

The real losers are Wardens and Sorcs, as they are the only ones really with a reason to stack health beyond the generic "I'm a vampire and having more HP makes my Undeath stronger." Making vampires weaker, incidentally, also helps DKs.

Ultimately I think a broader rework is in order. I won't rehash it because I've already typed quite a lot-- but some people agreed, so that makes me feel good.

LittlePinkDot

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Quick interlude... Why is Zaans meta? It's been brought up like twice now. I have seen everything else a lot, but I don't think Ive seen much Zaans on Xbox NA.

Because unless you have a purge or streak, you're going to die if it's on you.

It never procs when you need it.

taugrim

StaticWave wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Darn no responses! I was looking forward to this discussion all day at work! I was hoping someone else might've shared some of their off-meta success stories.

The thing with off-meta builds is that you have to be a very strong PvPer to pull off kills, but it doesn’t mean you can equally compete with someone in a meta build who’s as good as you.

For example I’ve tried a health recovery build in the current meta. Health recovery is a dead stat in PvP, everyone knows that. The highest I could get to was a little more than 3000 health regen, and that took sacrificing 3 dmg sets, Undeath, and a bunch of other stuff. Could I kill an average player? Sure, I could do that with any build. But the moment I run into someone competent, I tend to lose more. I know I would have a higher winning chance if I wore something like Rallying Cry and Essence Thief.

I think using health recovery as an example is the far extreme. Health recovery is devalued because it's halved by Battle Spirit.

People tend to stick to meta sets because they don't have the patience, creativity, funds, or willingness to lose in service of learning.

But there are plenty of good to great options available, if people are willing to experiment.

StaticWave wrote: »

Now, if you're not slotting Rallying Cry you're going to have a higher chance of losing against someone with it, assuming both of you are equal in skill. If you're not slotting Master DW, you're probably going to lose more. If you're not slotting Maarselok or Zaan, you're definitely going to lose almost all of the time.

I've slotted RC 1% of the time in PVP.
I've slotted Master DW 2% of the time in PVP.
I've slotted Maarselk and Zaan 0% of the time in PVP, partly because I don't have Zaan.

There are ways to be meaningfully successful outside of the meta, but like I said it requires desire to experiment and patience, and not everyone has that.

I used health recovery because it is an example of build diversity being removed from the game. At the time, HP regen was an alternative to vampire stage 3. You had the option to build for HP regen and forgo Undeath passive, or forgo HP regen and get Undeath. Now you have to get Undeath because HP regen is a dead stat.

BTW, I don't use afflictions on any of my characters either.

I do agree it's a shame Health Recovery was nerfed, it made sets such as Troll King or Alessian Order viable.

StaticWave wrote: »

You primarily play BG, and RC greatly diminishes there. RC is very needed for solo PvP and any small-scale PvP because you're fighting a lot more people than a simple 4v4v4. You probably don't slot mDW or Maarselok or Zaan because your build doesn't require it, but meta builds include all of them.

Oh, I didn't mean to say RC isn't really powerful. It is. It basically combines nearly two 5-pc set bonuses into 1.

StaticWave wrote: »

I'm not saying non-meta builds don't work, I'm saying they only work because of the player. You're a good PvPer, and you can probably make most builds work. But that doesn't change the point that you are at a greater disadvantage when you do run into people who are as good as you and also in meta builds.

OK, that's fair context.

I do think a lot of people tend to over-dismiss or under-experiment because they have the expectation that meta builds are the only strong option. Arcanist is a great example. The class mechanics totally favor building around the class kit, but some folks think arena weapons are the only or most effective playstyle. I'm sure it's effective, but it's not exclusively effective.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

I'm on board with nerfing max HP through battlespirit-- I agree it's needed and I agree it's the easiest thing to do, in the short term, to address the problem.

But I think some other things would have to be done at the same time.

The two strongest classes right now are DK and NB. They have the best damage. They also have some of the strongest damage mitigation and avoidance tools that aren't reliant on max HP. If we just suddenly steal 5k of everyone's HP, which classes come out on top? I think it's them. The DK is still only taking 3% damage when he's doing his thing and the NB can still be invisible when not doing his.

The real losers are Wardens and Sorcs, as they are the only ones really with a reason to stack health beyond the generic "I'm a vampire and having more HP makes my Undeath stronger." Making vampires weaker, incidentally, also helps DKs.

Ultimately I think a broader rework is in order. I won't rehash it because I've already typed quite a lot-- but some people agreed, so that makes me feel good.

I’ve also stated in another thread that damage would have to be slightly adjusted if HP was lowered. Things should feel relatively the same damage wise, but people can actually die now because they aren’t sitting at 30-40k HP anymore.

OBJnoob

@StaticWave lol yes I actually just got done reading that other post of yours. Like I said, I agree. But an overall slight nerf to damage won't do. In simple terms, they're gonna need to fix Corrosive and Assassins Will. If I can only have 25k HP then I don't want to be getting hit for 20k anymore. And no, 18k doesn't make the situation much better.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

@StaticWave lol yes I actually just got done reading that other post of yours. Like I said, I agree. But an overall slight nerf to damage won't do. In simple terms, they're gonna need to fix Corrosive and Assassins Will. If I can only have 25k HP then I don't want to be getting hit for 20k anymore. And no, 18k doesn't make the situation much better.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I think nerfing NB would make the class pretty bad in PvE. What we can do though, is increase the value of Impenetrable trait. Crit damage is easily accessible nowadays while crit resistance is limited to 3 usable sets (2 of which are used by healers). On my stamsorc, I can easily reach 99% crit damage with 11% from Shadow mundus, 8% from FF CP, 10% from 5 medium, 10% from Minor Force, and 10% from Minor Brittle. Even if you're in 7 Impen and wearing Rallying Cry, you're only going to get 58% crit damage resistance, still 41% short of my max crit damage. NBs can hit the cap quite easily with their abundant sources of penetration and crit damage modifiers.

As for DK, FoO is the main issue imo. It's usually, if not always top DPS in a fight. It's basically a mini Caluurion's but can also build Molten Whip stacks. Either remove its ability to build Whip stacks, or turn it into a mini delayed burst with a clear visual indicator so people can at least counter play it.

OBJnoob

That's a fair comment. My understanding is indeed that NB sucks for PvE. I think they suck at PvE for the same reason they rock at PvP. I'm not suggesting a nerf so much as an overhaul. Some of the power in their Incap + AW combo really needs to be stolen and redistributed more evenly through the class kit. We can stop justifying AW damn near one-shotting people with the excuse "it has to hit that hard cuz we have no delayed burst," by turning it into delayed burst. NBs can stop complaining that it's clunky, and everyone else can stop complaining that it hits too hard. In addition to the functionality changing, yes the tooltip needs to be lowered as well, and that power fed into their AoE and/or DoT abilities. Doing 30K in 2 seconds might decimate in PvP but in PvE they probably lack for sustained damage and cleave. And even their burst, in PvE, is probably run of the mill because everybody in PvE is at the crit and pen cap, robbing NB of what it has a PvP advantage in.

And I know this will steal some of NBs identity and in general I'm not a fan of doing that. But they still have invisibility, and now that they aren't squishy anymore I find it hard to justify them hitting quite so hard. Something should've been done years ago, to be honest, because the slippery backstabber might be a RPG staple but it's a balance nightmare.

As for DK, we agree, I've said multiple times that something needs to be done about FoO. The first fireballs need to come out at the 5 second mark, not at the 0 second mark, so that it can be the delayed burst it's supposed to be instead of being an aim-free spammable that builds stacks. OR... Remove major savagery from it. Who in the flying heck decided DKs having the best source of savagery in the game was balanced or thematic anyway? It's hugely out of place.

TankHealz2015

I'd like to see more cyrodiil off-meta builds that are still fun and somewhat effective ...

If anybody willing to post.

I normally go for some sort of support the team type build.

OBJnoob

@TankHealz2015 What class are you playing at the moment? And what is the average size of your groups?

TankHealz2015

Cyroduil open world PvP

DK, pug groups. LFG in zone chat and sometimes a top player is leading a group.

Sometimes is a small group other times is full. Everyday is a surprise.

OBJnoob

@TankHealz2015 Okay well I'm not going to lay out a build for you but I have some ideas.

If you choose to use Igneous weapons as your source of major brutality then you will be providing it for your whole group AND giving them minor brutality at the same time. Most everybody has their own way to get major but you'll help their uptimes. There are other ways to give them minor, but doing them both at once saves barspace.

As far as gear goes, powerful assault or rallying cry are good sets for buffing your group. The monster set Magma Incarnate is also good. A lot of people don't use it I think because Resolving Vigor already grants minor resolve. But you could use Echoing Vigor to proc Powerful Assault and heal more people and give them weapon damage, and still use Coagulating Blood to keep yourself alive and proc Magma Incarnate.

As far as fighting goes, DKs are good for CCs. So if you aren't going to try to be a solo killer then making good use of Talons is always a good idea. You could do Fossilize as well but honestly your teammates will be stunning people on and off I find immobilizes to be more useful in large group fights.

But yea... Make yourself survivable, heckle the enemies with CCs and whatever damage you can muster, and give your group as much weapon damage as you can.

Zama666

I still like Twice Born Star. How about a 12 pc set, 9pc give you 3 Mundi 12 give yo 4 Mundi.

oh, and what is the point of Battle Spirit again?

Lumenn

Zama666 wrote: »

I still like Twice Born Star. How about a 12 pc set, 9pc give you 3 Mundi 12 give yo 4 Mundi.

oh, and what is the point of Battle Spirit again?

Ohhhhh, I MISS my twice born. I even attuned a crafting set in memory (and the hope that zos will bring it back. It'll happen! One day! Maybe.....)

Zabagad

Lumenn wrote: »

Zama666 wrote: »

I still like Twice Born Star. How about a 12 pc set, 9pc give you 3 Mundi 12 give yo 4 Mundi.

oh, and what is the point of Battle Spirit again?

Ohhhhh, I MISS my twice born. I even attuned a crafting set in memory (and the hope that zos will bring it back. It'll happen! One day! Maybe.....)

Don't know why you don't use it if you miss it? If you play NoCp - it's working there - even if some people say it wouldn't....

Urzigurumash

StaticWave wrote: »

I think the biggest issue is just high HP in general. 18-19k HP was the norm for the vast majority of builds, and only healers and tanks were breaching 30-40k HP.

Back when - rather than having any hard cap on HP - Battlespirit gave us an additional 5k HP? What's that tell you?

Read my first comment in this thread again and the posts I reference:

There's too much healing, too much damage, and far too much sustain. (and this all motivates stacking HP instead of Mag/Stam).

19k HP is an easy two-shot for any class - and while I agree buffing Impen makes tons of sense:

Simply change the existing Battlespirit modifiers. However much Dev time that would take is nothing compared to considering the thousands of other suggestions this forum has made.

Ps. I agree with StaticWave that FoO is by far what's pushing DK ahead (along with DK's 13% global damage buff from Vampirism) and I very much that OBJ's solution is the best posited. Isn't OBJ's idea closer to what the original Sea of Flames was like? I don't quite remember.

TankHealz2015

Vampire passive - 30% less DMG
Revealing Flare skill - 10% less DMG

Throw on a shield spam - OK

But how do they maintain permanently CC immune?

Is there a health/immovable potion?

I've only seen the magika restore/immovable potions.

What's missing?

And what is the counter? Defile troll build?


Also, unrelated, but the tool tip for plague break set is not very big, compared to DK deep breath skill or proxy set, or even Vicious Death set

Yet, I sometimes get hit with a 13k plus DMG - and look on the floor and see only 3 other players dead.

The scale up says 50% increase per player, but it seems much higher. What am I missing?