High Isle exposed a flaw in ESO but what is it?

Marcus684

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I thought long and hard about this, since I agree on the premise that there is something wrong with ESO, that makes it hard to get into it. In my opinion this has nothing to do with the High Isle Chapter. It is a couple of facts that play into this, but it basically comes down to the fact that expectations are not met.

The most important two being:
1) If you come from previous Elder Scrolls games and expect gameplay, combat, questing and exploration to be at least similar. But they are not. Not even close to that what previous Elder Scrolls games established.
...

This is probably all that needs to be said about why a lot of new players don't stick around. Fans of single-player TES games, which I'm guessing is the majority of new players, will discover that ESO exists and decide to try it out. They'll immediately learn that it's nothing like they expected, especially those without prior MMO experience, and many will leave shortly thereafter. This doesn't mean that there's anything "wrong" with ESO, it just means that the intersection between fans of single-player RPGs and fans of MMORPGs is limited.

As for MMORPG fans not sticking with ESO, I think this is simply because there are plenty of other titles to try out, and the desire of MMO players to subject themselves to another grind in another new game is low. That's what people I know have told me when I've offered to get them into ESO.

This isn't implying that ESO is a perfect game and there isn't room for improvement. I just don't see low new player retention as indicating some dramatic problem with ESO. I suspect that every game with low entry cost will have a big percentage of players that will try it out on a whim, only to quickly get bored and move on.

I_killed_Vivec

Marcus684 wrote: »

Fans of single-player TES games, which I'm guessing is the majority of new players...

I have no idea if you're right or not, but from my perspective, as a TES fan, I started playing at beta. Skyrim was released in 2011... I'd been waiting for the next TES adventure!

12 years after the release of Skyrim, how many TES fans are only just now making it over to ESO? I really don't know how many new TES fans have picked up Skyrim in the last decade and are now migrating to ESO.

Though I suppose it shows some kind of loyalty to have held out for years waiting for TES VI

And I suspect that is the real problem, ESO isn't TES VI - even though most people play it like it is

chessalavakia_ESO

Braffin wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

Perhaps. Given that it's an Elder Scrolls game, I think ESO might not be typical. There are quite a few players that try the game and stick around because it's Elder Scrolls and put up with a lot, including unsatisfying combat, because of that. Though I'm sure many players are here for the combat, of course.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

It's probably a lot of reasons, and maybe combat is one. But I think new players don't get far enough in the game to care about that. As the OP said, they leave before their characters even hit level 25, when they haven't really maxed out any skill lines and such. So while I think veteran players might get fed up of the combat and leave, I'm not sure it's the *primary* reason why new players leave. Without data or exit survey results (which I don't think ZOS does), we can both only speculate (which can be fun, of course!).

So, just for the fun of speculating then

1) I think you're partially right about the difference between tes single player games and eso. Online games are just different, not restricted to combat though. It's also about world building, quest structure, rewards and many other things. That can be a hard transistion, as I experienced myself when I played swtor (my first mmo) coming from kotor. But also tes single player games are combat-centered. A different style of combat, as some get never tired to explain, but combat nonetheless.

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

My impression is that generally speaking MMO's aren't a good fit for players that have interests that are strongly slanted towards just combat because MMO's tend to include grinds for both skills and gear which can get in the way of experiencing the full range of combat.

I disagree, as mmos are mostly combat-centric. Eso is no exception with this, it's just careless with motivating players to evolve their builds dynamically while they play. That's why most content is braindead easy and many players hit a wall if they decide to try veteran content.

I mean, grinding involves combat too, doesn't it? Maybe not the most interesting one, but combat nonetheless.

MMOs do have lots of combat but, the combat is generally speaking filler to keep people busy so that they don't burn through the game too quickly.

It's not an accident that people in MMOs will routinely attempt to skip parts of the combat if they can do so because for much of the audience it simply isn't the main course. MMOs will routinely sell/provide XP boosts as perks which cuts down on the amount you need to engage with the combat system.

A good combat system will be fun even if you remove the pretty graphics, the story, progression, stats, friends ect and just cut the experience down to combat.

That fundamentally isn't MMOs most of the time.

In fact, in many MMOs you can enjoy the content even without the combat. SWTOR would be a prime example of this as you've got hours of footage from the class quests that has been viewed hundreds of thousands of times on youtube. At one point, I decided to stop leveling one of my characters on SWTOR and to just watch it on youtube because the combat + side quests were just a slog.

Braffin

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

Perhaps. Given that it's an Elder Scrolls game, I think ESO might not be typical. There are quite a few players that try the game and stick around because it's Elder Scrolls and put up with a lot, including unsatisfying combat, because of that. Though I'm sure many players are here for the combat, of course.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

It's probably a lot of reasons, and maybe combat is one. But I think new players don't get far enough in the game to care about that. As the OP said, they leave before their characters even hit level 25, when they haven't really maxed out any skill lines and such. So while I think veteran players might get fed up of the combat and leave, I'm not sure it's the *primary* reason why new players leave. Without data or exit survey results (which I don't think ZOS does), we can both only speculate (which can be fun, of course!).

So, just for the fun of speculating then

1) I think you're partially right about the difference between tes single player games and eso. Online games are just different, not restricted to combat though. It's also about world building, quest structure, rewards and many other things. That can be a hard transistion, as I experienced myself when I played swtor (my first mmo) coming from kotor. But also tes single player games are combat-centered. A different style of combat, as some get never tired to explain, but combat nonetheless.

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

My impression is that generally speaking MMO's aren't a good fit for players that have interests that are strongly slanted towards just combat because MMO's tend to include grinds for both skills and gear which can get in the way of experiencing the full range of combat.

I disagree, as mmos are mostly combat-centric. Eso is no exception with this, it's just careless with motivating players to evolve their builds dynamically while they play. That's why most content is braindead easy and many players hit a wall if they decide to try veteran content.

I mean, grinding involves combat too, doesn't it? Maybe not the most interesting one, but combat nonetheless.

At one point, I decided to stop leveling one of my characters on SWTOR and to just watch it on youtube because the combat + side quests were just a slog.

Exactly, you decided to stop playing your character, because you didn't want to get further involved with the combat, which is neither arbitrary nor optional in swtor, and watched a vid instead.

Vhozek

Vrienda wrote: »

Take a look around any city. They're packed full of quests and guess what? Most of them are prologues that lead you off to some remote place, obfuscating your progress in the zone you're in. Prologue quests need moving somewhere away from new players. Desperately. Having ten different plotlines dumped on you at once is overwhelming

I have over 2k hours into the game and I avoid quests in the city a lot cause I don't know where they're going to take me. I think the only one I've done is the werewolf quest in Daggerfall city.

spartaxoxo

Braffin wrote: »

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

The devs have gone on record that the vast majority of the players are here for the story and play the story and exploration side of things, first and foremost.

I don't think they want zero combat. But, I think it's more so something they treat as flavor for what they really want to do, which is quest.

I think there's a sizable group of people who are more interested in difficultly. But I think that a game that has been known as a casual mmo for years (and apparently mocked by more hardcore players widely for being too easy) probably has a pretty casual playerbase.

vsrs_au

Deter1UK wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

The game is almost impossibly difficult to understand for a new player.

You are bombarded with content, that you can play in random order even though some of it is serialised. You'll then find you've broken the stories. .... But put a new player in that experience and the game just collapses.

Leveling an ALT really spotlights this.

Do the Main Quest up to the part where Abner Tharn asks you to meet in the Guildhall.

`Go to the Mages Guild and there are TWO Abner Tharns; one really obvious one trying to get you to go on the Elsewyr chapter and the Abner Tharn you are really looking for for the Main Quest - hidden in the basement!

Its ridiculous and ruins any suspension of disbelief in the game for a time.

I really think they should put Chapters on a quest board and direct players to the quest giver placed somewhere remote to aviod all the confusion.

On the weekend, after over 3 years of playing ESO on only 1 character, I created 7 crafting alts. For variety, I made them 7 different races, and based them in towns that those races would typically consider their homelands, so I'm doing daily crafting writs in different locations for each character.

Now what do they get every time I do daily writs on them ? Solicitations from the usual suspects: the hooded figure, Stuga, Sorinne, and others (but especially those three). If I was a new player, particularly if crafting was one of my character's activities, I'd find that both confusing and discouraging. It's confusing, because they're everywhere: you see copies of them in various towns.

Vhozek

Another thing I've noticed, that not many people bring up, is how at low levels you eventually end up fighting Daedra either through random encounters, dolmens, or something like the portals in Blackwood.
I think that takes away from the "epic" factor far too early on in the game. I just started a new character right now and bumped into one of those portals in Blackwood. I didn't wanna go in cause everything else after that feels very dull and I didn't want to get bored just yet.
My exact words were "Nah, I don't wanna do anything to crazy yet, I wanna kill a few more 'mundane' enemies before moving on to demons and that sort of thing".
My logic is that killing bears, wolves, and delve bandits after killing what are essentially fallen angels is kinda... lame.
I'm level 3 with 54% exp at the moment of this happening.

Foxtrot39

Biggest buzz killer to progression arc is the lack of hard enemies in overland that arent world bosses, delve bosses are still a joke TTK wise

Kidna wish I was there before One Tamriel as it seemed even overland enemies could have been a good challenge, just like a normal TES game would have

Kendaric

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Biggest buzz killer to progression arc is the lack of hard enemies in overland that arent world bosses, delve bosses are still a joke TTK wise

Kidna wish I was there before One Tamriel as it seemed even overland enemies could have been a good challenge, just like a normal TES game would have

It wasn't really that much of a difference, overland combat was always rather easy and before they radically changed the world bosses they could be soloed with (relative) ease.
Also, it was common to overlevel zones, even if people were not actively trying to.

People really need to remove the rose-tinted glasses when looking at pre-One Tamriel.

What a lot of people forget to mention is that our damage was far lower, so especially in the veteran zones it was often just a tedious slog.

Vhozek

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

wish I was there before One Tamriel

Necrotech_Master

Kendaric wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Biggest buzz killer to progression arc is the lack of hard enemies in overland that arent world bosses, delve bosses are still a joke TTK wise

Kidna wish I was there before One Tamriel as it seemed even overland enemies could have been a good challenge, just like a normal TES game would have

It wasn't really that much of a difference, overland combat was always rather easy and before they radically changed the world bosses they could be soloed with (relative) ease.
Also, it was common to overlevel zones, even if people were not actively trying to.

People really need to remove the rose-tinted glasses when looking at pre-One Tamriel.

What a lot of people forget to mention is that our damage was far lower, so especially in the veteran zones it was often just a tedious slog.

yeah back in the early days, most of the current base game WBs only had about the same amount of hp and dmg output as a public dungeon boss

and combat wasnt really "harder" then, all you had to do was outlevel the content and it became trivial, the only content that couldnt be trivialized that way was the end game content of stuff like IC and craglorn

edit: i still remember when people were scaling MoL trial down to lvl 10 which ended up making the dro'mathra motifs incredibly cheap at the time lol

Vhozek

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Biggest buzz killer to progression arc is the lack of hard enemies in overland that arent world bosses, delve bosses are still a joke TTK wise

Kidna wish I was there before One Tamriel as it seemed even overland enemies could have been a good challenge, just like a normal TES game would have

It wasn't really that much of a difference, overland combat was always rather easy and before they radically changed the world bosses they could be soloed with (relative) ease.
Also, it was common to overlevel zones, even if people were not actively trying to.

People really need to remove the rose-tinted glasses when looking at pre-One Tamriel.

What a lot of people forget to mention is that our damage was far lower, so especially in the veteran zones it was often just a tedious slog.

combat wasnt really "harder" then, all you had to do was outlevel the content and it became trivial

No way ZOS listened to the people typing TGM in the Skyrim console command or the game journalists saying we need an invincibility mode in video games to just play through the story line.

Necrotech_Master

Vhozek wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Foxtrot39 wrote: »

Biggest buzz killer to progression arc is the lack of hard enemies in overland that arent world bosses, delve bosses are still a joke TTK wise

Kidna wish I was there before One Tamriel as it seemed even overland enemies could have been a good challenge, just like a normal TES game would have

It wasn't really that much of a difference, overland combat was always rather easy and before they radically changed the world bosses they could be soloed with (relative) ease.
Also, it was common to overlevel zones, even if people were not actively trying to.

People really need to remove the rose-tinted glasses when looking at pre-One Tamriel.

What a lot of people forget to mention is that our damage was far lower, so especially in the veteran zones it was often just a tedious slog.

combat wasnt really "harder" then, all you had to do was outlevel the content and it became trivial

No way ZOS listened to the people typing TGM in the Skyrim console command or the game journalists saying we need an invincibility mode in video games to just play through the story line.

back pre-one tamriel if you were fighting enemies that were the same level as you, it was maybe only slightly more challenging than it was now, maybe about the same, and if you got higher level than the enemies, it became trivial (even easier than it is now)

craglorn when it came out, was very difficult, most of those delves were harder than group dungeons (some of them still could be considered so depending on the person such as a new player, this was the only content i feel that was actually nerfed (coming from experience of clearing all of the content both "on release" of craglorn pre one tamriel and "current" craglorn), i would say its like most things in the game, mostly trivial to established vet players but not to new or casual players