High Isle exposed a flaw in ESO but what is it?

RedRoomGaming

joergino wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They don't understand the quest order. (...)

"No. It's just everything in this stupid game has to be so complicated."

This is exactly the way I felt when I started playing this game.
I only stayed because there was a group of people playing this game with whom I liked to play in my early days.
Not a single one of them is still in this game, everybody left and I'm basically left doing writs for no reason whatsoever.

I’m the only one out of the 15 of us that played constantly, I am sad, I have no friends, I do writs, farm, and fish.

Like I had an argument with a guild member because I asked for help for a build. “But your cp 1300 why are you asking”

“Uuuuuuh I got about 400 of those from writs, daily dungeons and dailies. I fell out of love for the game and just started making gold”


“ yeah but you should know the game seeing as you where here from the start”

“No, I just enjoyed playing and others gave me the idea and I rolled with it. DID YOU THINK I WANTED TO BE A HEALER/TANK?? No but for the laughs I did and boy was it fun doing vet white gold tower back then”

Never got a reply. So I’ve just built my own and hope that’ll work

Vhozek

Northwold wrote: »

Honestly, I tend to agree with the poster above that I doubt the vast majority of new players give a fig about combat. Combat is what people who've been playing 1000 hours get bothered about. People who've played 20 simply want to understand what on earth is going on.

I mean, I got halfway to writing a novel (thanks to folk for wading through it) above relating everything I felt about ESO when I started and how horrible it was, and combat didn't even occur to me as an issue to put into words. Yes, my personal priorities are my personal priorities, but I definitely wasn't thinking "oh my goodness if only I could somehow animation cancel this game would be chef's kiss perfect".

The way I see it is that the vast majority of people who play video games are combat centric. That's why you see more dps than tanks and healers in every game you play and why shooters are so popular. The likely first thing someone does is kill a few mobs, gather 1 or 2 resources, explore the terrain a bit, kill more mobs, do a couple of quests. If those quests had combat in them, they check their skills and progress right after, if not, they kill a few mobs again and then check their skills and progress afterwards.
I believe this is how majority of players play video games, not very far off of that pattern. Maybe mix in configuring their game settings somewhere in there, probably right after combat since they want it to feel good.
Humans are also very "feel" oriented which is why I believe the feel of combat is very important, second to the feel of general movement, which is not bad in ESO.

AzuraFan

Vhozek wrote: »

The way I see it is that the vast majority of people who play video games are combat centric. That's why you see more dps than tanks and healers in every game you play and why shooters are so popular.

There was some big survey or study done years ago about gamers who play MMOs. Based on a survey, they divided gamers into categories like "Explorers", "Warriors", etc. You'd be surprised at how many gamers, especially those that play RPGs (I consider ESO to fall under that genre), don't have a ton of interest in combat. Combat often gets in the way of what they want to do: roleplay, explore, find secrets, etc.

Also, there are quite a few games now that have no combat in them. Look at games like Life is Strange or The Room, etc. Look at strategy games where sure, there's a form of combat, but it's not really the point. Of course players who play shooters like combat, where combat really is the point, but that's only one genre and there are plenty of gamers who don't play shooters at all.

Now maybe the majority of ESO players are most interested in combat, but maybe not. We don't really know. I think the reason most people are DPS, and not tanks and healers, is because it's easy to pew, pew, pew. Learning how to be an effective tank or healer is a little more difficult.

I think the people who say the game is a mess for new players because of the lack of guidance and the abundance of quest markers for chapter prologues are probably closer to the mark about why many new players don't stick around.

Braffin

Sorry to say that, but eso is (and always was) clearly a combat-centered game. Not much to do besides it.

The only somewhat "complete" gamemodes without combat are housing and ToT, aside that you have several tied-in minigames like antiquities and fishing. And you can hang out with people of course (as in every other online game). But nonetheless 90% of this game are built upon and around combat.

Sure, somebody could say it's about story. Yes, it is. A story about a hero fighting his way across the whole of tamriel.

There are indeed several games out there, which aren't combat-centered (most rpg are tho): building games, simulations, strategy games, sport and whatnot.

But saying combat isn't the central element of eso, is simply not true.

AzuraFan

Braffin wrote: »

But saying combat isn't the central element of eso, is simply not true.

I didn't say ESO isn't combat centric. It clearly is. I was responding to the assertion that the vast majority of players who play video games are combat centric.

Also, on the topic of the thread, I think the confusion and overwhelm new players experience is the more likely reason why many leave, not the combat.

Braffin

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

But saying combat isn't the central element of eso, is simply not true.

I didn't say ESO isn't combat centric. It clearly is. I was responding to the assertion that the vast majority of players who play video games are combat centric.

Also, on the topic of the thread, I think the confusion and overwhelm new players experience is the more likely reason why many leave, not the combat.

You're of course right in this wider context.

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

AzuraFan

Braffin wrote: »

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

Perhaps. Given that it's an Elder Scrolls game, I think ESO might not be typical. There are quite a few players that try the game and stick around because it's Elder Scrolls and put up with a lot, including unsatisfying combat, because of that. Though I'm sure many players are here for the combat, of course.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

It's probably a lot of reasons, and maybe combat is one. But I think new players don't get far enough in the game to care about that. As the OP said, they leave before their characters even hit level 25, when they haven't really maxed out any skill lines and such. So while I think veteran players might get fed up of the combat and leave, I'm not sure it's the *primary* reason why new players leave. Without data or exit survey results (which I don't think ZOS does), we can both only speculate (which can be fun, of course!).

Braffin

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

Perhaps. Given that it's an Elder Scrolls game, I think ESO might not be typical. There are quite a few players that try the game and stick around because it's Elder Scrolls and put up with a lot, including unsatisfying combat, because of that. Though I'm sure many players are here for the combat, of course.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

It's probably a lot of reasons, and maybe combat is one. But I think new players don't get far enough in the game to care about that. As the OP said, they leave before their characters even hit level 25, when they haven't really maxed out any skill lines and such. So while I think veteran players might get fed up of the combat and leave, I'm not sure it's the *primary* reason why new players leave. Without data or exit survey results (which I don't think ZOS does), we can both only speculate (which can be fun, of course!).

So, just for the fun of speculating then

1) I think you're partially right about the difference between tes single player games and eso. Online games are just different, not restricted to combat though. It's also about world building, quest structure, rewards and many other things. That can be a hard transistion, as I experienced myself when I played swtor (my first mmo) coming from kotor. But also tes single player games are combat-centered. A different style of combat, as some get never tired to explain, but combat nonetheless.

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

Caligamy_ESO

Maybe they came for the story and found a jumbled hot mess of spaghetti instead? :shrugs:

chessalavakia_ESO

Braffin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

Perhaps. Given that it's an Elder Scrolls game, I think ESO might not be typical. There are quite a few players that try the game and stick around because it's Elder Scrolls and put up with a lot, including unsatisfying combat, because of that. Though I'm sure many players are here for the combat, of course.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

It's probably a lot of reasons, and maybe combat is one. But I think new players don't get far enough in the game to care about that. As the OP said, they leave before their characters even hit level 25, when they haven't really maxed out any skill lines and such. So while I think veteran players might get fed up of the combat and leave, I'm not sure it's the *primary* reason why new players leave. Without data or exit survey results (which I don't think ZOS does), we can both only speculate (which can be fun, of course!).

So, just for the fun of speculating then

1) I think you're partially right about the difference between tes single player games and eso. Online games are just different, not restricted to combat though. It's also about world building, quest structure, rewards and many other things. That can be a hard transistion, as I experienced myself when I played swtor (my first mmo) coming from kotor. But also tes single player games are combat-centered. A different style of combat, as some get never tired to explain, but combat nonetheless.

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

My impression is that generally speaking MMO's aren't a good fit for players that have interests that are strongly slanted towards just combat because MMO's tend to include grinds for both skills and gear which can get in the way of experiencing the full range of combat.

rpa

ESO is a huge messy pile on content which is not on rails. One has to play for a while or spoil themself with some web research before learning enough about the game to play through it in order which makes sense if they want to. I believe its better than rails on levelling and expansions invalidating old content but it is confusing. If there is a perfect solution, I do not know what it would be.

Howda

Vhozek wrote: »

The "trailer knight" guy from High Isle became viral and I see him everywhere. Surely people eventually found out where he's from, right? Well, what happened then? Why did nobody play ESO cause they wanted to see the "trailer knight"? And if they did, why didn't they stay?
This was ESO's chance to nearly double its playerbase.

There's something in this game that's unappealing to a wider audience, something players notice very early on as data from all other video games suggest that majority of players obtain very early game achievements like "reach level 10" and less than half of those obtain achievements like "reached level 25".
What do you think it is?

High Isle exposed a flaw in ESO and I think we should really try to figure out what it is. This was THE chance for the game to blow up and there could be other chances, but for now, it looks like the game isn't going anywhere with the way it currently operates.

Combat is not for everyone.

Hurbster

I have to agree, the new player experience is absolutely terrible.

notyuu

The real issue is that the combat is eaither too easy with no challange or pushback rendering it a rather dull walk in the park or it is hard to the point of tedium which renders it again, dull, there's no sweet-spot middle ground that keeps players engaged.

Sprinkle in the fact that every zone is scaled to the same tier meaning you lack any feeling of growth or gain in power and thus lacking a feeling of accomplishing anything with your time.

Then you mix in the moon sized Ludonarrative dissonance when "the big bad guy that is a threat to everything is unstoppable and felled out best heros help us" is encoutered in game as a fight and you kill them in 10 seconds or less and it leaves you just sitting there going "is this a joke?" dosn't foster a feeling of actually accomplishing anything, thus you put the game down and walk away to find something more enjoyable to do with your free time.

For the record I am NOT saying "make every zone harder than craglorn and bosses rock solid diffcuility that onl 3% of people can beat/nerf trial contant into the ground it's too hard, weh weh weh" what I am saying is "change the overall diffcuility from of the overland and questing stuff from -2/10 to 1/10" and "maybe add in some content with diffcuility between a dungon and a trial"

ADarklore

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

My impression is that generally speaking MMO's aren't a good fit for players that have interests that are strongly slanted towards just combat because MMO's tend to include grinds for both skills and gear which can get in the way of experiencing the full range of combat.

And this is the problem that ESO had in the beginning when they tried to be 'all things to all players' and found out that it wasn't working for anyone. So they created One Tamriel and opted to focus on the players who wanted, "Skyrim with friends" because that style was most aligned with the Elder Scrolls series.

But as you said, the game is still a conflicted mess in many ways. Because Elder Scrolls series are single-player games that are pretty much static, whereas ESO is constantly changing- and this turns off many "Skyrim with friends" players. Personally, I had never even played another Elder Scrolls game before starting ESO back in 2015, but I have since gone back and played Skyrim, which I never finished. I honestly prefer ESO because there are always things changing (sometimes for the worse) but also cool new things being added, like companions and new classes. I don't mind grind and repetition, but I also hate PVP and forced 'group' content... so ESO has been a good fit because it allows me to play the majority of the game how "I" want to play it, unlike some other MMOs that revolve around the 'old mentality' that MMO meant a heavy focus on 'group' content.

So I think ESO still has a problem because it's still trying to be 'all things to all people' and not able to focus strictly on a specific player base... and with that, there will always be disagreements and disappointments amongst the players. ESO is in reality, a 'jack of all trades, master of none' game... and I'm OK with that.

endgamesmug

joergino wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They don't understand the quest order. (...)

"No. It's just everything in this stupid game has to be so complicated."

This is exactly the way I felt when I started playing this game.
I only stayed because there was a group of people playing this game with whom I liked to play in my early days.
Not a single one of them is still in this game, everybody left and I'm basically left doing writs for no reason whatsoever.

Totally with you there my story similar aswell, my friends left at one tamriel then the rest at morrowind. Ive been mostly solo ever since

Braffin

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

Perhaps. Given that it's an Elder Scrolls game, I think ESO might not be typical. There are quite a few players that try the game and stick around because it's Elder Scrolls and put up with a lot, including unsatisfying combat, because of that. Though I'm sure many players are here for the combat, of course.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

It's probably a lot of reasons, and maybe combat is one. But I think new players don't get far enough in the game to care about that. As the OP said, they leave before their characters even hit level 25, when they haven't really maxed out any skill lines and such. So while I think veteran players might get fed up of the combat and leave, I'm not sure it's the *primary* reason why new players leave. Without data or exit survey results (which I don't think ZOS does), we can both only speculate (which can be fun, of course!).

So, just for the fun of speculating then

1) I think you're partially right about the difference between tes single player games and eso. Online games are just different, not restricted to combat though. It's also about world building, quest structure, rewards and many other things. That can be a hard transistion, as I experienced myself when I played swtor (my first mmo) coming from kotor. But also tes single player games are combat-centered. A different style of combat, as some get never tired to explain, but combat nonetheless.

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

My impression is that generally speaking MMO's aren't a good fit for players that have interests that are strongly slanted towards just combat because MMO's tend to include grinds for both skills and gear which can get in the way of experiencing the full range of combat.

I disagree, as mmos are mostly combat-centric. Eso is no exception with this, it's just careless with motivating players to evolve their builds dynamically while they play. That's why most content is braindead easy and many players hit a wall if they decide to try veteran content.

I mean, grinding involves combat too, doesn't it? Maybe not the most interesting one, but combat nonetheless.

Kendaric

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree, as mmos are mostly combat-centric. Eso is no exception with this, it's just careless with motivating players to evolve their builds dynamically while they play. That's why most content is braindead easy and many players hit a wall if they decide to try veteran content.

I mean, grinding involves combat too, doesn't it? Maybe not the most interesting one, but combat nonetheless.

I disagree, most MMORPGs are combat-heavy, but combat isn't the main point of a MMORPG. Most MMORPGs have a strong focus on questing or exploration, which may or may not involve combat to varying degrees.

Diablo and it's clones or FPS games are combat-centric as combat is the entire point of the game.

Braffin

Kendaric wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I disagree, as mmos are mostly combat-centric. Eso is no exception with this, it's just careless with motivating players to evolve their builds dynamically while they play. That's why most content is braindead easy and many players hit a wall if they decide to try veteran content.

I mean, grinding involves combat too, doesn't it? Maybe not the most interesting one, but combat nonetheless.

I disagree, most MMORPGs are combat-heavy, but combat isn't the main point of a MMORPG. Most MMORPGs have a strong focus on questing or exploration, which may or may not involve combat to varying degrees.

Diablo and it's clones or FPS games are combat-centric as combat is the entire point of the game.

So, how many quests do we have which aren't involving combat?

Don't get me wrong: Of course most mmos focus on story and questing (not necessarily exploration tho, which is treated quite neglectfully imo), but the way it's done is through combat.

It's not either questing or combat but questing with combat as integral core mechanic.

On a sidenote: Personally I'd appreciate more non combat-related quests, even riddles and puzzles would cater to my interests. Not to speak of an exploration experience without omnipresent questmarkers all over the screen. But I've accepted long ago, that mmos aren't this type of game.

AzuraFan

Braffin wrote: »

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

As someone who has played a lot of RPGs and a few MMOs, I expect to have to gradually pick up skills and such. I don't expect to have everything right away (unless the game smartly separates PvE and PvP, as Guild Wars always has - I can't remember, but I think you can get a fully-built PvP character fairly quickly). So I don't think your question makes sense. Most combat-centric players, unless they've never played an RPG in their lives, don't expect to instantly be at max skill. If someone's that combat-centric that they'll be turned off unless they're instantly at max level with everything, RPG isn't the right genre for them. They should stick to shooters.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think it's the combat that's turning off most new players who leave, because in terms of skills, they've only got a small taste of it (mainly from their 3 class lines - but there's MG, FG, TG, Dark brotherhood, undaunted, etc. that they've most likely barely touched). For those who are leaving before they hit 25 (or even 50), it's most likely something else that's turning them off.

ETA: If the combat is turning them off when they've barely scratched the surface, it's likely how combat works, and not the difficulty level. I've never liked ESO's combat. I think the bar swapping doesn't add much, and having to constantly re-apply buffs is boring as heck. I put up with it because it's TES and there's a lot of story content. But frankly, if this wasn't a TES game, I'd have been gone a while back because the combat just isn't all that interesting. Nothing to do with the skills but more the way it's mechanically designed.

Braffin

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

As someone who has played a lot of RPGs and a few MMOs, I expect to have to gradually pick up skills and such. I don't expect to have everything right away (unless the game smartly separates PvE and PvP, as Guild Wars always has - I can't remember, but I think you can get a fully-built PvP character fairly quickly). So I don't think your question makes sense. Most combat-centric players, unless they've never played an RPG in their lives, don't expect to instantly be at max skill. If someone's that combat-centric that they'll be turned off unless they're instantly at max level with everything, RPG isn't the right genre for them. They should stick to shooters.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think it's the combat that's turning off most new players who leave, because in terms of skills, they've only got a small taste of it (mainly from their 3 class lines - but there's MG, FG, TG, Dark brotherhood, undaunted, etc. that they've most likely barely touched). For those who are leaving before they hit 25 (or even 50), it's most likely something else that's turning them off.

I played my share of RPGs and MMOs too, and not in a single one of them, except eso of course, it was possible to kill an enemy, declared as "dangerous" (even in the tooltip), without using armor or any skill simply by using the most basic attack possible while ignoring the mobs mechanics. That's fitting for a tutorial or starter zones, but not everywhere in the game.

Try that in gw2 and you're dead. Same goes for the rest of mmos and rpgs out there.

Kesstryl

Braffin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

But saying combat isn't the central element of eso, is simply not true.

I didn't say ESO isn't combat centric. It clearly is. I was responding to the assertion that the vast majority of players who play video games are combat centric.

Also, on the topic of the thread, I think the confusion and overwhelm new players experience is the more likely reason why many leave, not the combat.

You're of course right in this wider context.

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

I disagree that it's "absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat." I'm here for the story and lore because it's an Elder Scrolls game. I've played other MMOs and didn't stay if I couldn't get into the world building and stories. To me combat is merely a mechanic of your character getting stronger through adventures in the story he or she is forging. I've done all kinds of endgame stuff too like vet trials and dungeons, and did those purely for combat and teamwork. But as a rule, I'm here for the story, world building, and RPing in my head. I don't need a difficult overland to feel challenged because I'm not doing quests and overland for combat, I'm doing them for story. I do dungeons and trials if I want pure combat.

I think it's more legitimate to assume that there are many different kinds of people who come to this game for many different reasons. Combat is only one among many.

Vhozek

notyuu wrote: »

The real issue is that the combat is eaither too easy with no challange or pushback rendering it a rather dull walk in the park or it is hard to the point of tedium which renders it again, dull, there's no sweet-spot middle ground that keeps players engaged.

Sprinkle in the fact that every zone is scaled to the same tier meaning you lack any feeling of growth or gain in power and thus lacking a feeling of accomplishing anything with your time.

Then you mix in the moon sized Ludonarrative dissonance when "the big bad guy that is a threat to everything is unstoppable and felled out best heros help us" is encoutered in game as a fight and you kill them in 10 seconds or less and it leaves you just sitting there going "is this a joke?" dosn't foster a feeling of actually accomplishing anything, thus you put the game down and walk away to find something more enjoyable to do with your free time.

For the record I am NOT saying "make every zone harder than craglorn and bosses rock solid diffcuility that onl 3% of people can beat/nerf trial contant into the ground it's too hard, weh weh weh" what I am saying is "change the overall diffcuility from of the overland and questing stuff from -2/10 to 1/10" and "maybe add in some content with diffcuility between a dungon and a trial"

I do feel like every mob is basically the same thing. There's no real identity to them because of the scaling. I remember the first time I fought a bear I expected it to be an experience like in Skyrim where I was just going to die as opposed to when fighting a wolf.
Nope, it's the exact same as a wolf. Lions? Wolves. Quest bosses? Wolves with more hp.

Vhozek

Braffin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

2) Don't get me wrong, I also think a central point of newer players leaving is the lack of explanation and guidance through content. But you say something very interesting here: A player around lvl 25 (and indeed also around lvl 50) didn't really get in touch with the combat system, which is almost treated as optional veteran-exclusive system nowadays. Now imagine you're a newcomer interested in combat: Would you stay?

As someone who has played a lot of RPGs and a few MMOs, I expect to have to gradually pick up skills and such. I don't expect to have everything right away (unless the game smartly separates PvE and PvP, as Guild Wars always has - I can't remember, but I think you can get a fully-built PvP character fairly quickly). So I don't think your question makes sense. Most combat-centric players, unless they've never played an RPG in their lives, don't expect to instantly be at max skill. If someone's that combat-centric that they'll be turned off unless they're instantly at max level with everything, RPG isn't the right genre for them. They should stick to shooters.

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think it's the combat that's turning off most new players who leave, because in terms of skills, they've only got a small taste of it (mainly from their 3 class lines - but there's MG, FG, TG, Dark brotherhood, undaunted, etc. that they've most likely barely touched). For those who are leaving before they hit 25 (or even 50), it's most likely something else that's turning them off.

I played my share of RPGs and MMOs too, and not in a single one of them, except eso of course, it was possible to kill an enemy, declared as "dangerous" (even in the tooltip), without using armor or any skill simply by using the most basic attack possible while ignoring the mobs mechanics. That's fitting for a tutorial or starter zones, but not everywhere in the game.

Try that in gw2 and you're dead. Same goes for the rest of mmos and rpgs out there.

Can confirm. Been playing GW2 for a few weeks, just tried PoE last night and the tutorial boss alone was more interesting than most mobs in ESO, got back into Lost Ark after not playing since launch and the mobs there are easy but combat is satisfying.
I do believe it has something to do with combat, some element involved in it.

Am I a hardcore player? No, I've done like 3 trials in ESO in my 2,200+ hours and only gotten to Selene's Web when it comes to vet dungeons. I have little to no experience in PvP.

Braffin

Kesstryl wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

But saying combat isn't the central element of eso, is simply not true.

I didn't say ESO isn't combat centric. It clearly is. I was responding to the assertion that the vast majority of players who play video games are combat centric.

Also, on the topic of the thread, I think the confusion and overwhelm new players experience is the more likely reason why many leave, not the combat.

You're of course right in this wider context.

I just wanted to hint, it's absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat.

That's why I think it's the combination of the lack of proper introduction in the game's mechanics (starting with a inexisting roadmap for content all the way up to unexplained build development) and an increasingly unsatisfying combat experience.

I disagree that it's "absolute legitimate to assume the majority of people playing this specific game are here for the combat." I'm here for the story and lore because it's an Elder Scrolls game. I've played other MMOs and didn't stay if I couldn't get into the world building and stories. To me combat is merely a mechanic of your character getting stronger through adventures in the story he or she is forging. I've done all kinds of endgame stuff too like vet trials and dungeons, and did those purely for combat and teamwork. But as a rule, I'm here for the story, world building, and RPing in my head. I don't need a difficult overland to feel challenged because I'm not doing quests and overland for combat, I'm doing them for story. I do dungeons and trials if I want pure combat.

I think it's more legitimate to assume that there are many different kinds of people who come to this game for many different reasons. Combat is only one among many.

You're right. The way I worded it sounded far too mutually exclusive. That wasn't intended.

My point is nonetheless, that almost every new player will expect some sort of combat, as it's typical for this sort of games. Ranging from easier encounters up to more difficult ones of course. That's what a significant part of mmos and rpgs are about, it's called character development.

This mechanic is implemented quite bad in eso, because the experience isn't fluid as your character grows stronger. The game literally bombards you with the possibility to go almost everywhere at once (breaking also storytelling doing so btw), while failing to let players experience, that their character development decisions matter. At least until they hit the wall called "veteran mode".

Just one of the various statements from a player, who left this game shortly after starting his journey:

The moment I learned there's not a single challenge anywhere in the world, that every single enemy everywhere will always be a "trash mob", my motivation to play this game dropped to zero. What's the point of levelling, of learning all that dizzying array of tools like crafting or alchemy if you never need any of it?

Found here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/gytw98/a_new_player_feedback_eso_is_both_phenomenal_and/

And the answer of the defenders of this mess is always the same: Go solo group content, do instanced vet content or go for another game.

AzuraFan

Braffin wrote: »

I played my share of RPGs and MMOs too, and not in a single one of them, except eso of course, it was possible to kill an enemy, declared as "dangerous" (even in the tooltip), without using armor or any skill simply by using the most basic attack possible while ignoring the mobs mechanics. That's fitting for a tutorial or starter zones, but not everywhere in the game.

Your assumption that NEW players come into this game expecting to die and die and die is wrong. Especially for a TES game, where some type of level scaling is par for the course.

Now maybe later, when players are no longer new, some will find the combat too easy and get bored. But this thread is about NEW players. I think you're taking what might be boring for veteran players and thinking new players feel the same, which isn't true. Clearly you don't find the combat satisfying because you find it too easy, but you're not a new player.

(and yeah, I get it. Some players do find the combat here too easy and want an optional difficult overland, etc. But that has nothing to do with why many players try out ESO and leave before they hit level 25.)

Braffin

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

I played my share of RPGs and MMOs too, and not in a single one of them, except eso of course, it was possible to kill an enemy, declared as "dangerous" (even in the tooltip), without using armor or any skill simply by using the most basic attack possible while ignoring the mobs mechanics. That's fitting for a tutorial or starter zones, but not everywhere in the game.

Your assumption that NEW players come into this game expecting to die and die and die is wrong. Especially for a TES game, where some type of level scaling is par for the course.

Now maybe later, when players are no longer new, some will find the combat too easy and get bored. But this thread is about NEW players. I think you're taking what might be boring for veteran players and thinking new players feel the same, which isn't true. Clearly you don't find the combat satisfying because you find it too easy, but you're not a new player.

(and yeah, I get it. Some players do find the combat here too easy and want an optional difficult overland, etc. But that has nothing to do with why many players try out ESO and leave before they hit level 25.)

No, it's not about me. It's about that:

The moment I learned there's not a single challenge anywhere in the world, that every single enemy everywhere will always be a "trash mob", my motivation to play this game dropped to zero. What's the point of levelling, of learning all that dizzying array of tools like crafting or alchemy if you never need any of it?

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/gytw98/a_new_player_feedback_eso_is_both_phenomenal_and/

(and yeah, I get it. Some players don't like how combat works in this game since the very beginning and try to avoid it as much as possible. But that has nothing to do with why many players try out ESO and leave before they hit level 25.)

AzuraFan

Braffin wrote: »

The moment I learned there's not a single challenge anywhere in the world, that every single enemy everywhere will always be a "trash mob", my motivation to play this game dropped to zero. What's the point of levelling, of learning all that dizzying array of tools like crafting or alchemy if you never need any of it?

[snip]

I've been speculating about why the majority of players leave before they hit 25. I think it's the overwhelm and the confusion they're faced with. But obviously there will be a range of reasons. I just don't think combat difficulty (lack thereof) is up there for most who quickly exit the game. But as I've said, I can see some players leaving because the combat design isn't all that great (bar swapping, the need to constantly rebuff if you're not using the oakensoul ring).

Let's leave it there. I'm okay with you thinking new players leave in droves because the combat is too easy. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

[edited for baiting]

Braffin

AzuraFan wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

The moment I learned there's not a single challenge anywhere in the world, that every single enemy everywhere will always be a "trash mob", my motivation to play this game dropped to zero. What's the point of levelling, of learning all that dizzying array of tools like crafting or alchemy if you never need any of it?

[snip]

I've been speculating about why the majority of players leave before they hit 25. I think it's the overwhelm and the confusion they're faced with. But obviously there will be a range of reasons. I just don't think combat difficulty (lack thereof) is up there for most who quickly exit the game. But as I've said, I can see some players leaving because the combat design isn't all that great (bar swapping, the need to constantly rebuff if you're not using the oakensoul ring).

Let's leave it there. I'm okay with you thinking new players leave in droves because the combat is too easy. The sun will still rise tomorrow.

It's not a single opinion. Reddit is filled with complaints from newer players regarding this issue:

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/sz69yo/eso_difficulty_level/
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/uwkbek/absurdly_low_difficulty_level_makes_it_hard_to_me/
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/wq6drr/difficulty_of_solo_content/

That's why I'm opposing the theories, which pretend difficulty hasn't any influence on their decision at all.

And mechanics like bar swapping and constant rebuffing aren't necessary in overland at any given moment. That's a veteran's point of view you're referring here.

But yeah, let's leave it there. We won't convince each other and it isn't necessary either.

[edited quote]

Zodiarkslayer

I thought long and hard about this, since I agree on the premise that there is something wrong with ESO, that makes it hard to get into it. In my opinion this has nothing to do with the High Isle Chapter. It is a couple of facts that play into this, but it basically comes down to the fact that expectations are not met.

The most important two being:
1) If you come from previous Elder Scrolls games and expect gameplay, combat, questing and exploration to be at least similar. But they are not. Not even close to that what previous Elder Scrolls games established.

• Combat is ability driven and much faster, more complex than the typical ES game, with hidden layers and requires a lot of individual player skill to become at least a bit proficient.
• Quests are linear, if you are nice. Moronically simple, if you want to be mean. It has gotten a bit better over the years, but only with a handful of quests.
• Exploration is dumbed down to finding the main hub and a couple places in every zone. No detail, nothing interesting or anything unique to remember. Even the visuals sucks if you do not have a ReShade to pimp it up. All in all the Zones feel empty. Just plainly, boringly empty. And meeting other players is a mostly a bad experience, since they will be a lot higher in Level and proficiency. Often "stealing" the Bosses. And leaving the newbies without a reward at all.
• ESOs gameplay is interwoven with chance. Almost all rewards are randomised. That makes them unimportant. Nothing to be remembered. And most often absolutely useless, because it is just a couple of hundred gold and maybe a random green set piece of the local overland variation. (Ask yourself: How many viable Overland sets are there? Two? Three, maybe? And how is a newbie expected to know them?)

2) Rewards are not rewarding. Everyone expects that they get rewarded for playing, so they get disappointed when they are not.
Rewards are disconnected from the effort to gain them. Ridiculous grinds to have a chance of a chance to get an item of value. That is the ESO reality. Even if there are some fixed drops in the game, they have almost no value and constitute the exception, not the rule.
RNGsus is a vengeful god of trickery in ESO. Or rather he hates us players.
The other side is that those items, that are valuable to players, cosmetics, mounts, pets and the like are almost exclusively available from the crown store. And expecting a new player to buy himself a nice character, right after purchasing the game for full value, is disconnected from reality.