@ZOS, Can you please make Tribute matches shorter?

Ashjunkie

Tribute would be more playable and accessible if it were shorter. These games can last over 20 minutes... that's asking way too much for a card game inside of another game. More people would be likely to play it if it were like a 5 minute thing we could do on our down time waiting for stuff in the game, but the games taking as long as they do make it just not worth it in any way. What are the chances of this happening?

wilykcat

Yes please. I do many other stuff in game and I don't need to spend all day doing Tales of Tribute.

tsaescishoeshiner

I agree they take a long time. Animations could be a bit quicker, but it's ultimately about decision-making time. I try to pick patrons that speed games up as much as possible:

Red Eagle
Duke of Crows
St. Pelin
Delmene Hlaalu

and avoid patrons that slow the game down:

Rajhin
Almalexia
Psijics

I'm not 100% sure how the remaining patrons rank among those.

The idea is to have at least 2-3 patrons with a fast win condition (generating power or prestige) and enough early gold that the early game isn't slow (Red Eagle + St. Pelin can be slow together). Avoiding patrons with complex choices each turn (especially Almalexia) also helps.

Necrotech_Master

i mostly only play npcs and the matches rarely take more than 10 minutes unless im really just trying to make them last as long as possible to troll the heck out of the npc lol

its slower against players because a lot of people probably camp their turn and dont end their turn once their done their moves

NeuroticPixels

The games definitely need to be quicker to finish, imo.

Rouz

You mean to tell me you don't want to spend 30 mins to an hour playing a single ToT match? What a surprising turn of events!

Yeah they really need to tone down the time it takes to play this god damn mini game. It gets so boring sometimes. I'm glad people want to take their time, but its out of hand right now how long the entire process takes. Takes me 5-15 mins to play against NPCs (depending if I'm playing to win asap or if I want to use a certain strategy). But I go play players and i'm dead by the time I finish the game.

I know their goal with ToT was to make it super accessible and low skill/new player friendly. But yeah its a bit ridiculous. If people want to take ages, go play NPCs. Nevermind the people who purposefully run the clock.

BaggyGreen

Ashjunkie wrote: »

Tribute would be more playable and accessible if it were shorter. These games can last over 20 minutes... that's asking way too much for a card game inside of another game. More people would be likely to play it if it were like a 5 minute thing we could do on our down time waiting for stuff in the game, but the games taking as long as they do make it just not worth it in any way. What are the chances of this happening?

Fair request. I've dipped into it, but the game length made me think, "This is a total time waster... why am I doing this?" and did indeed turn me off doing more with it. So your thought that more people would play a shorter game is on the money.

spartaxoxo

This is in part a skill issue and player behavior issue. NPC matches take me 5 to 10 minutes and I seldom use the full timer because I know what I want to do ahead of time. When I play against players who don't need a lot of time to think it's usually about 10-15 minutes. But, players who take a long time can make it drag out longer.

Roxxsmom

Do npc matches have timers? I generally do my turns very quickly. Still, I've gone AFK in the middle of npc matches, while cooking dinner and so on, and the game is still waiting when I get back unless I exceed the automatic ESO logout time.

Even the npc games have gotten longer, now that the npcs are using the patrons again (and much of the time this means picking one they will spam at every opportunity throughout the game, even if it means ignoring a patron that would be of more use points wise in that turn). Interestingly, there seems to be little difference in how the npcs at the three levels play anymore, aside from which patrons they can pick. This makes for longer games and removes the option of picking a novice-level opponent for a quick match.

DragonRacer

Roxxsmom wrote: »

Do npc matches have timers?

No. No timer on NPC matches, only the ones versus real players.

Ashjunkie

@zos_kevin Now tribute will be an endeavor? I thought endeavors were meant to be fast things that aren't too annoying to get? Seems a bit of an ask for tribute to be an endeavor... the games can take forever.

Reverb

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

I agree they take a long time. Animations could be a bit quicker, but it's ultimately about decision-making time. I try to pick patrons that speed games up as much as possible:

Red Eagle
Duke of Crows
St. Pelin
Delmene Hlaalu

and avoid patrons that slow the game down:

Rajhin
Almalexia
Psijics

I'm not 100% sure how the remaining patrons rank among those.

The idea is to have at least 2-3 patrons with a fast win condition (generating power or prestige) and enough early gold that the early game isn't slow (Red Eagle + St. Pelin can be slow together). Avoiding patrons with complex choices each turn (especially Almalexia) also helps.

Interesting that you put Crow on that list. I find it’s one of the decks that really slows down gameplay. It’s easy to run out the timer on it while it keeps drawing more and more and more cards, then spending the amassed coins.

I think the fastest matches are Pelin, Hunding, Hlaalu, and Red Eagle.

Any match with both crow and Almalexia is almost guaranteed to go 30 minutes. Add rajhin and Psijic and you’re in for a long one.

Combined with the several players I’ve encountered at Rubedite level this cycle who flip three cards and then sit there without taking any action until the timer warning flips, every hand, and a competitive match can take as long as running an arena.

valenwood_vegan

I see players who I assume are pretty experienced with ToT saying that NPC games only take 5-10 min.

True, but they can take a much longer time for players newer to the game, and this is a problem as I think it turns many off right from the start. Especially with the recent changes to the novice NPC. Imagine spending 10-20 minutes playing a NPC only to lose and get basically nothing. How many people really want to repeat this experience multiple times? I assume a lot just give up fairly early on.

And then if people actually do make it past that beginner state and start playing PvP matches... these can easily take > 15 or 20 minutes depending on the matchup. And you don't really know ahead of time how much of a time commitment it's going to be. Yikes.

I wouldn't mind ToT if it was a quick thing I could do in between other ESO activities, but I generally won't touch it anymore because one match could eat up a significant chunk of my playing time. If I only have an hour to play, I'm not interested in spending 25-50% of this time playing a DIFFERENT game... it's just not going to happen, no matter what rewards they dangle in front of me. (And lol, it also seems like the ToT rewards have been slowly reduced over time, if anything).

It's not that I dislike ToT per se, but I'm here to play ESO. ZoS seems to be making changes to try and *force* more people to play ToT... but instead of forcing us, they should be looking at making the game less of a time commitment.

(Or some kind of speed-version of the game - I'm not into ToT enough to come up with a detailed idea on this but I would absolutely play more often if I knew a match was guaranteed to have an upper limit... like in the 5-8 minute range... and maybe I'd even start to get more into the game and learn it more and move "up" to full matches eventually, who knows?).

Groterdan

Such a waste of recourses used to add this to the game while so many existing things already could use tweaking. So few peeps actually do this mini game they might as well just remove it. Don't waste. More recourses on a crap card game that's hardly played.

spartaxoxo

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

I see players who I assume are pretty experienced with ToT saying that NPC games only take 5-10 min.

That is also true of players doing dungeons. But, dungeons are still an good endeavor. Hopefully, the Tales of Tribute endeavor can also be completed with a friend. So, if the NPC is truly beyond them, they can at least play a friend who will take it easy on them are similarly inexperienced.

Seraphayel

Groterdan wrote: »

Such a waste of recourses used to add this to the game while so many existing things already could use tweaking. So few peeps actually do this mini game they might as well just remove it. Don't waste. More recourses on a crap card game that's hardly played.

While I was very reserved about Tales of Tribute when they first announced it as a feature - and while I still think it should have been no Chapter feature at all - I came to the conclusion that it was (at least for me) one of the best additions to the game, ever.

Since I returned to ESO for Necrom three weeks ago, I spent dozens of hours playing Tribute (I haven’t played High Isle last year, so it was new for me) and I love it. It’s basically the most played activity in ESO for me right now. I even pause playing my Arcanist to just play ToT matches. I love it. And I hope they add new decks at least once a year like they do with companions.

If people would get a bit more into it and leave their prejudices behind, I think so many people would be on board and enjoy the game as a side activity. That said, it should be made a base game addition for every player asap.

And a match lasting ~ 10 minutes is totally fine. If it’s too long for newer players, they simply need to get into the cards a bit more and learn and if that’s too much, they shouldn’t bother with ToT at all. That’s just how the game works. While you could cut NPC matches down to 20 or 30 instead of 40 Prestige, that won’t work for PvP matches.

valenwood_vegan

Seraphayel wrote: »

If people would get a bit more into it and leave their prejudices behind, I think so many people would be on board and enjoy the game as a side activity. That said, it should be made a base game addition for every player asap.

And a match lasting ~ 10 minutes is totally fine. If it’s too long for newer players, they simply need to get into the cards a bit more and learn and if that’s too much, they shouldn’t bother with ToT at all. That’s just how the game works

Well, respectfully, some of us are attempting to explain why we aren't getting more into it... And the answer is that we shouldn't bother with ToT at all I guess? I mean that's fine, I already don't. But I do stand by my opinion that if ZoS wants more people to play it, the matches need to be shorter... particularly the upper limit of the length of matches.

That said, I'm glad that you're enjoying it and that others are as well!

Seraphayel

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

If people would get a bit more into it and leave their prejudices behind, I think so many people would be on board and enjoy the game as a side activity. That said, it should be made a base game addition for every player asap.

And a match lasting ~ 10 minutes is totally fine. If it’s too long for newer players, they simply need to get into the cards a bit more and learn and if that’s too much, they shouldn’t bother with ToT at all. That’s just how the game works

Well, respectfully, some of us are attempting to explain why we aren't getting more into it... And the answer is that we shouldn't bother with ToT at all I guess? I mean that's fine, I already don't. But I do stand by my opinion that if ZoS wants more people to play it, the matches need to be shorter... particularly the upper limit of the length of matches.

That said, I'm glad that you're enjoying it and that others are as well!

A 10 minute match is short. There‘s no way to make it shorter without destroying the entire concept (deck building) of the game. You don’t have 10 minutes to spare for a match? Uhm. Not sure if ToT is the problem here (if there’s a problem at all). Realistically, how would you make it shorter? Reduce the time per turn to 45/60 seconds? Most turns don’t take that long anyway. What other solution is there?

Some matches can be very drawn out when both players are stalling each other, but those are quite rare and happen more on the higher tier leader of the game. And matches against the beginner NPCs are really easy and can be quite fast (I hope we‘re not talking about them anyway). At first I was slow too, but you really get the hang of the game quite quickly. And it‘s worth it in my opinion because when you know the decks and cards, it can get very strategical.

valenwood_vegan

As I said in my initial post, I am not knowledgeable enough about ToT to make a detailed suggestion about how to speed it up.

All I am really attempting to do here is to provide feedback about why I stopped playing it, which I feel I have done at this point. Maybe it's just not for me, and that's fine. I do think it's worth thinking about because this is absolutely not the first thread, and won't be the last, with complaints that the game takes too long.

I hope you continue to enjoy ToT and I wish you luck in getting more people to try it out.

Seraphayel

I mean… I read your opinion about ToT, but when you’re saying you’re not knowledgeable enough about ToT, I fail to see how you can even come to the conclusion that the matches take too much time. They take too much time because you’re not knowledgeable.

The more you know about decks and cards, the faster your actions become. I mean this is very much a trial and error thing and when you’ve done a decent amount of patches, you just know which cards are good or which ways to play.

I‘m not trying to devalue your feedback, but saying matches should be faster / take less time isn’t really feedback when there‘s no idea or at least a suggestion is involved on how to make them faster while keeping ToT as what it is. The core of the game is to build a deck and that just takes time. You cannot make that faster, you need about 5 minutes until every party has gotten a decent kind of deck and the real game starts.

I‘ve played over hundred matches in the last week and not one took me 20 or 30 minutes like some are saying here. Not even as a complete beginner. Most matches are on average 11-12 minutes, the longer ones being 15 and the shorter ones about 7-8. I’m not playing PvE matches because they’re outright boring due to the terrible NPC AI, so maybe that‘s the issue, but I cannot believe that NPC matches against the beginner ones are taking so much time to play anyway due to how dumb the AI acts.

(By the way, none of this is meant in an offensive or condescending way, I’m just trying to explain)

Necrotech_Master

Roxxsmom wrote: »

Do npc matches have timers? I generally do my turns very quickly. Still, I've gone AFK in the middle of npc matches, while cooking dinner and so on, and the game is still waiting when I get back unless I exceed the automatic ESO logout time.

Even the npc games have gotten longer, now that the npcs are using the patrons again (and much of the time this means picking one they will spam at every opportunity throughout the game, even if it means ignoring a patron that would be of more use points wise in that turn). Interestingly, there seems to be little difference in how the npcs at the three levels play anymore, aside from which patrons they can pick. This makes for longer games and removes the option of picking a novice-level opponent for a quick match.

there is no timer per turn, but the post-game report will still tell you how long the game took

spartaxoxo

One way to end your matches faster is to go for patron victories against NPCs. Just concede if it chooses the Psijic deck. This match was only around 5 minutes.

https://youtu.be/QwWFLnK7D_k

Necrotech_Master

spartaxoxo wrote: »

One way to end your matches faster is to go for patron victories against NPCs. Just concede if it chooses the Psijic deck. This match was only around 5 minutes.

https://youtu.be/QwWFLnK7D_k

im not sure if that works well anymore considering the npcs like to almost spam any patron, especially hlaalu

i actually had a 6 min match against a novice npc, the decks in play were pelin, hlaalu, rahjin, and orgnum (i obviously selected rahjin and orgnum because novice doesnt have access to those lol)

the novice did its usual hlaalu spam and never had any gold generation and between pelin and orgnum cards i was amassing power very quickly and got to 40

emilyhyoyeon

I used to do patron victories before the Necrom patch but I don't understand the new AI to make it reliable at all. Sometimes NPCs spam Hlaalu, sometimes they never use it, sometimes they use it once or twice. Sometimes they turn Ansei back every turn, sometimes they don't.

Would love to know what the best strategy to guarantee patron victories against NPCs is, especially which ones work for which level, because the different skill levels seem like they have different patron AI but I don't know what it is.


edit: just tried this against an expert NPC and they used patrons every turn (the game had Hlaalu, Orgnum, Almalexia, Crow). The only patron they didn't use once was Crow. Thankfully I still won.

But I really don't understand how to work around AI for patron wins. I really would like a consistent reliable strategy while I'm trying to get the inkwood box lead. I actually dread playing these every day for the daily boxes.

Necrotech_Master

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I used to do patron victories before the Necrom patch but I don't understand the new AI to make it reliable at all. Sometimes NPCs spam Hlaalu, sometimes they never use it, sometimes they use it once or twice. Sometimes they turn Ansei back every turn, sometimes they don't.

Would love to know what the best strategy to guarantee patron victories against NPCs is, especially which ones work for which level, because the different skill levels seem like they have different patron AI but I don't know what it is.

for novice npc for reliable wins i usually like having hlaalu and rahjin in play, i use rahjin to stall and -prestige, and the novice npc will reliably spam hlaalu every time they buy any card

i usually win 90% of the games still, without using patron wins and match time is still on avg 12 minutes

NoxiousBlight

Ashjunkie wrote: »

Tribute would be more playable and accessible if it were shorter. These games can last over 20 minutes... that's asking way too much for a card game inside of another game. More people would be likely to play it if it were like a 5 minute thing we could do on our down time waiting for stuff in the game, but the games taking as long as they do make it just not worth it in any way. What are the chances of this happening?

Said this multiple times during the PTS cycle when ToT came to ESO.

They don't care.

Games are way, way too long and that is the primary reason I don't play it. Games should be 5 minutes MAX.

spartaxoxo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

One way to end your matches faster is to go for patron victories against NPCs. Just concede if it chooses the Psijic deck. This match was only around 5 minutes.

https://youtu.be/QwWFLnK7D_k

im not sure if that works well anymore costilnsidering the npcs like to almost spam any patron, especially hlaalu

i actually had a 6 min match against a novice npc, the decks in play were pelin, hlaalu, rahjin, and orgnum (i obviously selected rahjin and orgnum because novice doesnt have access to those lol)

the novice did its usual hlaalu spam and never had any gold generation and between pelin and orgnum cards i was amassing power very quickly and got to 40

I forgot about that as I usually just play against expert. As you saw in the video, it still worked there (it's an Almalexia match). And yeah you honestly can just beat them that quickly too. Once you hit a certain point of knowledge, the NPCs become really easy.

spartaxoxo

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Games are way, way too long and that is the primary reason I don't play it. Games should be 5 minutes MAX.

How would that even work? Even Solitaire doesn't work like that.

MasterSpatula

This is a big part of why I stopped playing Tribute. When it's their turn, I don't want to wait. When it's my turn, I don't want to be rushed. Since I don't enjoy feeling like a hypocrite, I end up never playing.

Seraphayel

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Ashjunkie wrote: »

Tribute would be more playable and accessible if it were shorter. These games can last over 20 minutes... that's asking way too much for a card game inside of another game. More people would be likely to play it if it were like a 5 minute thing we could do on our down time waiting for stuff in the game, but the games taking as long as they do make it just not worth it in any way. What are the chances of this happening?

Said this multiple times during the PTS cycle when ToT came to ESO.

They don't care.

Games are way, way too long and that is the primary reason I don't play it. Games should be 5 minutes MAX.

Again, how? What‘s your proposed change that would make matches shorter? I‘m reading matches are too long yet I see no suggestions on how to make them shorter without butchering what ToT is about.

spartaxoxo

Seraphayel wrote: »

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Ashjunkie wrote: »

Tribute would be more playable and accessible if it were shorter. These games can last over 20 minutes... that's asking way too much for a card game inside of another game. More people would be likely to play it if it were like a 5 minute thing we could do on our down time waiting for stuff in the game, but the games taking as long as they do make it just not worth it in any way. What are the chances of this happening?

Said this multiple times during the PTS cycle when ToT came to ESO.

They don't care.

Games are way, way too long and that is the primary reason I don't play it. Games should be 5 minutes MAX.

Again, how? What‘s your proposed change that would make matches shorter? I‘m reading matches are too long yet I see no suggestions on how to make them shorter without butchering what ToT is about.

The animations could play a bit faster. But, that's about it imo.