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Why you should all support accessibility

  • jbrianj
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    Mekie wrote: »
    Accessibility will never work in this game. Why? Because all of us (players).
    There's nothing better than HA for those with accessibility needs, and we all know what happens with these players.
    If we can't accept the easiest accessibility option we have (HA), and if even ZoS keeps these HA players out of trials like vCR... What do you really expect from ZoS?!
    ESO Accessibility = RIP

    The thing is, that to make something challenging, - in a video game- you cannot just make the content easier for those people, because the content will be easier for everyone else too. Like someone before said, you cannot make dedicated parking spots for disabled people in a video game. I'm pretty sure that ZOS is trying it's best to make things more accessible without making MMO content easier, but there's a line somewhere, just like there's a line somewhere to how much you can help disabled people in real life. At some point you got to accept the fact that you cannot do everything on your own anymore.
  • Twig_Garlicshine
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    "just because accessibility is a good thing in games, it doesn't mean a game should be dumbed down just to appease those audiences"

    "normal" people will leave

    eventually bore "normal" people.

    Disabilities/health issues make people dumber?
    Or disabilities/health issues require dumber content?
    Normal? I'd like to see the poster's definition of "normal".

    Attitudes like this remove a very large portion of the market from Zos's possible income stream.

    Enjoy the population level of your mmo...while it lasts.


  • I_killed_Vivec
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    LunaFlora wrote: »
    a go kart in a 100m dash? elder scrolls isn't a sport. that is pretty strange to add.

    I'm sorry, but you are ignoring a lot of people who have the very valid approach that the game is a competitive sport. Otherwise why are there achievements?

    I see it myself in my solo endeavours... should I hold out "for purity", or get on the go-kart everyone else is using?

    I used to be truly hardcore - first person PoV. I gave that up because there's a lot of content where it just isn't possible to play that way.

    I'm still holding out about using companions, because that isn't truly solo. But that might change if I find myself really, really wanting to do content I can't without a companion.

  • colossalvoids
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    No one here is opposing actual accessibility, there's normal mode and tools to make it accessible even more, even by just being multiplayer game where you can invite anyone to help you out directly. There's other things related to health and wellbeing and it's always expanding (wasn't screen narration the last one?). Being unable to tackle different difficulty tier isn't really an accessibility issue as you're already able to do the content, but on a different level than other people who have different preferences and abilities. When "accessibility" of sorts enters competetive spaces (lets say leaderboard content) it's enters a territory where some decisions might affect it's very nature negatively, competitive one, so not everything would stick eventually. And there most people are drawing the line more directly as it starts affecting their own enjoyment and gameflow in favour of people who feel like they should have easier time in every tier of said content, not just one intended for them.

    As we can't have the game tuned for 0.1% we also can't have 99.9% to affect it all either, not some other 33.3% can and that's where balance should be struck. Everyone enjoys the game differently, but enjoyment of one can affect enjoyment of others pretty easily and it can't be always dismissed through "but accessibility" in vacuum. Pretty sure zos would be able to balance it out after some time, but divide created in communities is more complicated issue that will stay for awhile.
    Edited by colossalvoids on June 10, 2023 6:47PM
  • jbrianj
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    Fkey wrote: »
    "just because accessibility is a good thing in games, it doesn't mean a game should be dumbed down just to appease those audiences"

    "normal" people will leave

    eventually bore "normal" people.

    Disabilities/health issues make people dumber?
    Or disabilities/health issues require dumber content?
    Normal? I'd like to see the poster's definition of "normal".

    Attitudes like this remove a very large portion of the market from Zos's possible income stream.

    Enjoy the population level of your mmo...while it lasts.


    How to take things out of context 101.
  • Twig_Garlicshine
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    jbrianj wrote: »
    Fkey wrote: »
    "just because accessibility is a good thing in games, it doesn't mean a game should be dumbed down just to appease those audiences"

    "normal" people will leave

    eventually bore "normal" people.

    Disabilities/health issues make people dumber?
    Or disabilities/health issues require dumber content?
    Normal? I'd like to see the poster's definition of "normal".

    Attitudes like this remove a very large portion of the market from Zos's possible income stream.

    Enjoy the population level of your mmo...while it lasts.


    How to take things out of context 101.

    Nothing was taken out of context.
    You said it and it got "snipped" because your meaning was very clear.
    Shrug.

    Personally I'm just about done with game anyway since Flashbang Arcanists give me migraines as was reported by many during PTS server. It was ignored so as not to disturb "normal" peoples' gaming.
    I can no longer do much else besides a few craft dailies and hang out in houses.
    Not much point in logging in anymore.
  • jbrianj
    jbrianj
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    Fkey wrote: »
    jbrianj wrote: »
    Fkey wrote: »
    "just because accessibility is a good thing in games, it doesn't mean a game should be dumbed down just to appease those audiences"

    "normal" people will leave

    eventually bore "normal" people.

    Disabilities/health issues make people dumber?
    Or disabilities/health issues require dumber content?
    Normal? I'd like to see the poster's definition of "normal".

    Attitudes like this remove a very large portion of the market from Zos's possible income stream.

    Enjoy the population level of your mmo...while it lasts.


    How to take things out of context 101.

    Nothing was taken out of context.
    You said it and it got "snipped" because your meaning was very clear.
    Shrug.

    Personally I'm just about done with game anyway since Flashbang Arcanists give me migraines as was reported by many during PTS server. It was ignored so as not to disturb "normal" peoples' gaming.
    I can no longer do much else besides a few craft dailies and hang out in houses.
    Not much point in logging in anymore.

    No

    With dumbing down I meant: Making it easier to allow better accessibility
    With normal people I meant: People who can play the game normally without accessibility issues

    You definitely took it harshly out of context, and because my comment was snipped, there is no context at all anymore, so your comments should also be snipped, so it doesn't get taken out of context.
  • Ph1p
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    LunaFlora wrote: »
    everyone is allowed to use accessibility options in videogames and should if they want to. an abled person isn't cheating by using aim assist or subtitles.

    a go kart in a 100m dash? elder scrolls isn't a sport. that is pretty strange to add.

    take the ramp that's in front of a building's entrance, anyone can use it. you don't need a wheelchair to use a ramp.
    it doesn't give you an advantage over people using the stairs.

    support more accessibility and stop believing that being against something that helps disabled people is okay just because abled people also use it.
    This isn't about "being against something that helps disabled people". That question is a no-brainer and we're all on the supporting side: Accessibility should be about helping people overcome disabilities and bringing them to or at least close to the level of everyone else. You're right: If my color-blind buddy can change the default colors of enemy and friendly AOEs, it makes the game more accessible for him, but not easier than it would be for anyone else. No one can reasonably object to this.

    It gets trickier, when a feature actually changes the difficulty of the game itself. Subtitles are allowed in e-sports but aim assists aren't. Oakensoul made it easier to achieve high DPS and survive tough encounters - not just for people with physical disabilities, but everyone. And that's generally fine, but people will disagree on how much easier it should be made. Because while ESO isn't a sport, it does have competitive elements like PVP and leaderboards. Players practice their skills/rotations, form organized raid groups, and test their abilities in scored trials, sometimes with a Twitch audience. That's at least sports-like to me.

    Therefore, we need to discuss how far we want to prioritize helping people overcome disabilities over changing the underlying balance of the game. And we should be able to do so without the black-and-white assumption that one side doesn't want to help people with disabilities at all...
  • Dreaders123
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    Ph1p wrote: »
    LunaFlora wrote: »
    everyone is allowed to use accessibility options in videogames and should if they want to. an abled person isn't cheating by using aim assist or subtitles.

    a go kart in a 100m dash? elder scrolls isn't a sport. that is pretty strange to add.

    take the ramp that's in front of a building's entrance, anyone can use it. you don't need a wheelchair to use a ramp.
    it doesn't give you an advantage over people using the stairs.

    support more accessibility and stop believing that being against something that helps disabled people is okay just because abled people also use it.
    This isn't about "being against something that helps disabled people". That question is a no-brainer and we're all on the supporting side: Accessibility should be about helping people overcome disabilities and bringing them to or at least close to the level of everyone else. You're right: If my color-blind buddy can change the default colors of enemy and friendly AOEs, it makes the game more accessible for him, but not easier than it would be for anyone else. No one can reasonably object to this.

    It gets trickier, when a feature actually changes the difficulty of the game itself. Subtitles are allowed in e-sports but aim assists aren't. Oakensoul made it easier to achieve high DPS and survive tough encounters - not just for people with physical disabilities, but everyone. And that's generally fine, but people will disagree on how much easier it should be made. Because while ESO isn't a sport, it does have competitive elements like PVP and leaderboards. Players practice their skills/rotations, form organized raid groups, and test their abilities in scored trials, sometimes with a Twitch audience. That's at least sports-like to me.

    Therefore, we need to discuss how far we want to prioritize helping people overcome disabilities over changing the underlying balance of the game. And we should be able to do so without the black-and-white assumption that one side doesn't want to help people with disabilities at all...

    Genuine question here. I get concerns over PVP. I get concerns over leaderboards. I still don't get why OakenSorc. I understand the views that OakenSorc was too powerful with damage and survivability and so on (agree or otherwise). I know tweaks were made to limit effectiveness in PVP.

    But PVP is dominated by certain other classes in the main. Trial Leaderboards are a mix, with certain classes dominating - Sorcerers not being one. Solo Trial Leaderboards are a long list of Nightblades and nothing else.

    Why OakenSorc? It never beat the best rotation/two bar builds. For me it's not the nerf and the specific rights or wrongs of it. It's "why that one?" and "why was there only one build like this in the first place?"

  • thorwyn
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    ]But PVP is dominated by certain other classes in the main. Trial Leaderboards are a mix, with certain classes dominating - Sorcerers not being one. Solo Trial Leaderboards are a long list of Nightblades and nothing else.

    You keep making the same mistake over and over and over and over again. I've explained it to you dozends of times by now:
    If you want to evaluate the impact of oakensoul, YOU CAN NOT USE LEADERBOARDS OR WORLD RECORDS OR RANKINGS AS A REFERENCE!!!!
    Oakensoul does not have impact on top tier groups and comparing them is misleading. It does, however, have a huge impact on the average trial group scene. If you were truly interested in answering the question "Why OakenSorc", you would open esologs, go to all reports, pick any trial and browse the logs. But you are not interested in answering the question and that's the problem.
    Edited by thorwyn on June 11, 2023 7:31AM
    And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
    And if there is no room upon the hill
    And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
  • Dreaders123
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    thorwyn wrote: »
    ]But PVP is dominated by certain other classes in the main. Trial Leaderboards are a mix, with certain classes dominating - Sorcerers not being one. Solo Trial Leaderboards are a long list of Nightblades and nothing else.

    You keep making the same mistake over and over and over and over again. I've explained it to you dozends of times by now:
    If you want to evaluate the impact of oakensoul, YOU CAN NOT USE LEADERBOARDS OR WORLD RECORDS OR RANKINGS AS A REFERENCE!!!!
    Oakensoul does not have impact on top tier groups and comparing them is misleading. It does, however, have a huge impact on the average trial group scene. If you were truly interested in answering the question "Why OakenSorc", you would open esologs, go to all reports, pick any trial and browse the logs. But you are not interested in answering the question and that's the problem.

    The person I was quoting literally said it was about leaderboards.

    EDIT OK I've done it, I've opened ESOLOGS, I've gone to trials and gone to statistics. What are you hoping I'll see?

    eqnuhy97qg8u.png

    I've also picked a bunch of random logs from All reports. Tell me what I'm missing?
    Edited by Dreaders123 on June 11, 2023 7:51AM
  • DarcyMardin
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    Cheers to the OP — What a great post!

    For folks who have no accessibility issues currently, if they continue being gamers during all phases of their lives, they will very likely have some type of limitation that could be diminished by the creative use of accessibility options by game makers. Granted, I speak as one who has been gaming since childhood, beginning with board games and cards, since personal computers hadn’t yet been invented. Now that I’m older than dirt, gaming isn’t as easy for me as it once was.

    But I still love it and I still spend many hours a week playing games (mostly ESO). Slower reflexes, stiffer muscles, and a sensitivity to bright flashes of light mean I don’t raid as I still used to as a cocky end-gamer in former MMOs, but man, I hope to still be gaming until I die.

    I was lucky not have many accessibility issues at younger ages, but many, many people do. It’s not at all uncommon. We need gaming companies to step up and rise to the challenge.
  • thorwyn
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    The person I was quoting literally said it was about leaderboards.

    Yes... and leaderboards are more than just the top 10.
    What are you hoping I'll see?

    vas6.jpg
    vas5.jpg
    vas4.jpg
    vas3.jpg
    vas1.jpg
    And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
    And if there is no room upon the hill
    And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
  • Dreaders123
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    Thanks for pasting that. I've found none like that but I take your evidence. I found a lot that looked mixed. I found a lot where certain other classes led a similar looking picture.

    38t68glsinit.png

    Still don't get it (and again, not whether it needed a nerf, what and why it was singled out)
  • Dreaders123
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    thorwyn wrote: »
    The person I was quoting literally said it was about leaderboards.

    Yes... and leaderboards are more than just the top 10.

    I looked beyond the top 10 but ... are you saying they are relevant now? Because you CAPPED me to say they weren't.
  • Dreaders123
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    This is going to go into another OakenSorc thing isn't it?

    I'm mentally exhausted so I'm going to close out now but I wanted to thank:

    Those who were brave enough to share their stories
    Those who supported, either through reactions or through posts
    Those who disagreed, where we had respectful debate
    Those where we disagreed a little heatedly but where we were able to patch things up later :)

    Mods @ZOS_Icy @ZOS_Kevin please feel free to close this, I don't think more is going to be constructively said. I do hope we can all think more about accessibility as a first class citizen that benefits all of us. I know not everyone is convinced but that's OK too.

    More importantly I hope that ZoS think long and hard about the need for an accessibility strategy and a narrative to share to prevent polarisation. I'd rather we were debating a strategy constructively, than a vacuum without structure.
  • thorwyn
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    I looked beyond the top 10 but ... are you saying they are relevant now? Because you CAPPED me to say they weren't.

    I capped you because you keep bringing up world records and top leaderboards and high level endgame logs and use them as a benchmark to make oakensoul builds look less impactful. Because that is your agenda. Accessibility is just the scapegoat.

    Leaderboards are not relevant for direct competition, but they are relevant in terms of assessing the performance of a group. And as my screenshots suggest, it is highly doubtful that a. all those people are disabled players and b. they would have performed as well without oakensoul.
    Edited by thorwyn on June 11, 2023 8:54AM
    And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
    And if there is no room upon the hill
    And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
This discussion has been closed.