Undeath again

mmtaniac

Undeath should be weaker or they should lock fighter's guild skill tree for wampires and werewolfs. This way people will have too choose. Because right now not being vampire is just being worst in pvp. With some downsides and lose of Dawnbreaker some people will think did i need survival over good chunk of damage ultimate. If passive is not op then why 90% of pvp players use it. Ok vampire have downsides too but with current game and sets this downsides are too easy to counter. Game need some choose in few categories similiar problem is with dk invicibility with infiniti armor penetration. I know people want to do eveything , i want too but this thing just not healthy for game and whole balance.

StarOfElyon

The drawbacks are completely negated at low health.

GrimStyx

here the only option is to make a vampire narrowly focused on skills, like a werewolf, unfortunately vampire skills do not synergize well with each other, but at the same time they are useful as an addition to any build, if the developers would make passive abilities more tied to vampire skills, for example, resistance to damage could be passively received only if 3 skills from the vampire branch are selected, e.g. 3 skills on one weapon, 3 other skills on the second weapon, for a full bonus, this would make many players wonder if they need it or not, and of course, the vampire skills themselves should be reworked and significantly improved, as in terms of synergy and combinations, so in terms of direction for different game content

GrimStyx

although it seems to me that it would be easier to remove the % resistance xd

WoppaBoem

I am fine with removing undeath if they bring back health recovery by removing debuff from battle spirit. Than meta you had to build for. But do remove the cp that gives health recovery based on ultimate.

Weckless

Undeath is definitely strong but locking fighters guild skills from vamps is not the way to go. It would make classes like stamsorc obselete with no good ultimate besides 2h ult but dw would be unplayable. The class already struggles due to having the worst healing in the game so youd basically make them choose between 2 things that are both bad

mmtaniac

Undeath passive is 100% similiar to current Dragonknight class that is too strong and do too much for one thing. Vampire should be attractive for skills not passives. Passives should be only bonus not main thing of this skill tree it shouldn't dictate whole meta in pvp. Ok sorc can lose ultimate it's not good i get it but look at this from person that don't play vampire that person are from start on losing side of the coin (they don't have undeath)no matter what they do. Ok player skill matters much but still sometimes skill can't help when similiar skill people met at time like this strongest passives matters more than player skill.

usmcjdking

How Undeath has been allowed to survive 9 years past balance checks is absolutely laughable.

Mrtoobyy

usmcjdking wrote: »

How Undeath has been allowed to survive 9 years past balance checks is absolutely laughable.

The balancing team at ZOS doing their finest job!

mmtaniac

They ignore undeath whole time. I proposed change to undeath ,change it to armor scaling similiar to pariah ,maybe weaker, this way vampires will be forced to stack less armor to get maximum bonus from passive, because right now they have too much defense bonuses. Another bonus of armor is ,you can reduce it. Get minor and major protection + 33000armor + undeath + 1hit from serpent coil. It's too much defense. They should add more unique armor bonuses not % damage reduction bonuses. Armor a least have a cap. So you can't stack it indefinitly.

Tyrant_Tim

If Undeath required a Vampire ability slotted to work, it would make Vampire a build choice rather than a necessity for any build.

GrimStyx

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If Undeath required a Vampire ability slotted to work, it would make Vampire a build choice rather than a necessity for any build.

one ability on each slot will not solve the problem, the new mist is used quite often, like the ultimate, the problem of vampirism is that this branch was originally built as an addition to class and weapon skills, and not as an independent branch where you have to smear yourself with vampire abilities, to get the maximum bonus for example from undeath passive, 6%/12%/18%/... max protection with min hp from each vampire skill on your panel,and with the current abilities and their synergy with each other, no one will do this, especially some like vampiric drain are completely useless

Vevvev

usmcjdking wrote: »

How Undeath has been allowed to survive 9 years past balance checks is absolutely laughable.

You're assuming it's been this strong for that amount of time. Before Greymoor it only started working below 50% HP at execute range, but now it scales starting at 100%.

El_Borracho

Just because a lot of PVP players use Undeath does not make it OP. Its a nice passive that gives survivability, available to everyone, and is not class specific. And people are still dying despite being a Vampire.

The Vampire skill line for all of its existence has been almost universally a PVP skill line. Its had its very, very brief moments of utility in PVE (i.e. Blood for Blood) but its a PVP skill line. Stealth and resistance are countered by skill cost and vulnerability to fire. If you remove the resistance, why would anyone play as a Vampire?

GrimStyx

El_Borracho wrote: »

Just because a lot of PVP players use Undeath does not make it OP. Its a nice passive that gives survivability, available to everyone, and is not class specific. And people are still dying despite being a Vampire.

The Vampire skill line for all of its existence has been almost universally a PVP skill line. Its had its very, very brief moments of utility in PVE (i.e. Blood for Blood) but its a PVP skill line. Stealth and resistance are countered by skill cost and vulnerability to fire. If you remove the resistance, why would anyone play as a Vampire?

For the same reason that players play as a werewolf, for the sake of his abilities and unique gameplay, the vampire has always been just a gag for adding abilities that are important to a particular class and the undeath passive, it was like that before the change, and remained after, although it could be obviously come up with something more interesting, make a unique branch, with its own gameplay, and not just a gag of your class problems, then it would be much easier to balance the same undeath. Let me remind you that the vampire lord set is the most useless in the game, simply because no one needs a neutered skill line that has no synergy between themselves, with the same neutered and undeveloped set, so yes, the only thing left is just to be a gag skill and an undeath passive. It’s just a shame that the purpose of this branch didn’t change much both before and after the rework, you correctly noted that players with bad builds and / or weak classes still die even with a passive, but already dense classes with big damage potential and broken damage builds become completely unkillable with the undeath passive

LittlePinkDot

mmtaniac wrote: »

Undeath should be weaker or they should lock fighter's guild skill tree for wampires and werewolfs. This way people will have too choose. Because right now not being vampire is just being worst in pvp. With some downsides and lose of Dawnbreaker some people will think did i need survival over good chunk of damage ultimate. If passive is not op then why 90% of pvp players use it. Ok vampire have downsides too but with current game and sets this downsides are too easy to counter. Game need some choose in few categories similiar problem is with dk invicibility with infiniti armor penetration. I know people want to do eveything , i want too but this thing just not healthy for game and whole balance.

Why does my werewolf deserve this?

Weckless

GrimStyx wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If Undeath required a Vampire ability slotted to work, it would make Vampire a build choice rather than a necessity for any build.

one ability on each slot will not solve the problem, the new mist is used quite often, like the ultimate, the problem of vampirism is that this branch was originally built as an addition to class and weapon skills, and not as an independent branch where you have to smear yourself with vampire abilities, to get the maximum bonus for example from undeath passive, 6%/12%/18%/... max protection with min hp from each vampire skill on your panel,and with the current abilities and their synergy with each other, no one will do this, especially some like vampiric drain are completely useless

Actually when vampire was first made it was made specifically for the passives. The only abilities were mist form and vampire drain and then the bat swarm ultimate. They reworked it in Greymoor and that's when it became a complete skill line adding the spammable, vamp drain and fear. Also undeath has only been as strong as it is now since then too, as it only kicked in under 50% health back then so it hasn't been op for 9 years like people are saying. Nobody really ran vampire until they nerfed health recovery then undeath was peoples answer to losing the passive defense it provided. Honestly i think if they just reverted the nerfs to health recovery and adjusted sets like alessian and changed undeath back to only scaling under 50% we would be in a lot better place overall.

Weckless

usmcjdking wrote: »

How Undeath has been allowed to survive 9 years past balance checks is absolutely laughable.

Because undeath hasnt been op for 9 years

GrimStyx

Weckless wrote: »

GrimStyx wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If Undeath required a Vampire ability slotted to work, it would make Vampire a build choice rather than a necessity for any build.

one ability on each slot will not solve the problem, the new mist is used quite often, like the ultimate, the problem of vampirism is that this branch was originally built as an addition to class and weapon skills, and not as an independent branch where you have to smear yourself with vampire abilities, to get the maximum bonus for example from undeath passive, 6%/12%/18%/... max protection with min hp from each vampire skill on your panel,and with the current abilities and their synergy with each other, no one will do this, especially some like vampiric drain are completely useless

Actually when vampire was first made it was made specifically for the passives. The only abilities were mist form and vampire drain and then the bat swarm ultimate. They reworked it in Greymoor and that's when it became a complete skill line adding the spammable, vamp drain and fear. Also undeath has only been as strong as it is now since then too, as it only kicked in under 50% health back then so it hasn't been op for 9 years like people are saying. Nobody really ran vampire until they nerfed health recovery then undeath was peoples answer to losing the passive defense it provided. Honestly i think if they just reverted the nerfs to health recovery and adjusted sets like alessian and changed undeath back to only scaling under 50% we would be in a lot better place overall.

I remember that time when you could cast vampire drain and stun through a rolldodge, it was fun. But, this is the whole problem, even after rebalancing they made a whole branch, but could not make good abilities, with synergy among themselves, it just looks more like a set of skills, as I said, to plug the shortcomings, or win back through the undeath passive. You say that there is no longer a possibility for good survivability in view of the nerf of the alternative to health regeneration, but this will mean that others will also not be able to play on a conditional DK with a ton of damage from their own class abilities, and at the same time have extra big survivability, as in me, passives like this should be more orientired for those who want to play specifically for the vampire, and not for the sake of his resistance passive, with all or most of his abilities, which of course need to be reworked, and at the same time, with this approach, it will be much easier to balance the vampire branch. Maybe then there won't be players who can outlive the zerg and still deal tons of damage, in fact, if no one has a strong version of this passive other than vampire skill oriented players, then nothing much will change, those who die easily will die and further, on the other hand, other can no longer to play on tanks with broken damage builds, then it will no longer be possible to deal tons of damage and at the same time overcome the defense cap, or turn duels between strong players into an endless brawl for unknown hours, because due to the huge survivability of both, they cannot simply kill each other, but at the same time, players with weaker classes and builds will only be incinerated from a couple of hits, without being able to defeat them

Weckless

GrimStyx wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

GrimStyx wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

If Undeath required a Vampire ability slotted to work, it would make Vampire a build choice rather than a necessity for any build.

one ability on each slot will not solve the problem, the new mist is used quite often, like the ultimate, the problem of vampirism is that this branch was originally built as an addition to class and weapon skills, and not as an independent branch where you have to smear yourself with vampire abilities, to get the maximum bonus for example from undeath passive, 6%/12%/18%/... max protection with min hp from each vampire skill on your panel,and with the current abilities and their synergy with each other, no one will do this, especially some like vampiric drain are completely useless

Actually when vampire was first made it was made specifically for the passives. The only abilities were mist form and vampire drain and then the bat swarm ultimate. They reworked it in Greymoor and that's when it became a complete skill line adding the spammable, vamp drain and fear. Also undeath has only been as strong as it is now since then too, as it only kicked in under 50% health back then so it hasn't been op for 9 years like people are saying. Nobody really ran vampire until they nerfed health recovery then undeath was peoples answer to losing the passive defense it provided. Honestly i think if they just reverted the nerfs to health recovery and adjusted sets like alessian and changed undeath back to only scaling under 50% we would be in a lot better place overall.

I remember that time when you could cast vampire drain and stun through a rolldodge, it was fun. But, this is the whole problem, even after rebalancing they made a whole branch, but could not make good abilities, with synergy among themselves, it just looks more like a set of skills, as I said, to plug the shortcomings, or win back through the undeath passive. You say that there is no longer a possibility for good survivability in view of the nerf of the alternative to health regeneration, but this will mean that others will also not be able to play on a conditional DK with a ton of damage from their own class abilities, and at the same time have extra big survivability, as in me, passives like this should be more orientired for those who want to play specifically for the vampire, and not for the sake of his resistance passive, with all or most of his abilities, which of course need to be reworked, and at the same time, with this approach, it will be much easier to balance the vampire branch. Maybe then there won't be players who can outlive the zerg and still deal tons of damage, in fact, if no one has a strong version of this passive other than vampire skill oriented players, then nothing much will change, those who die easily will die and further, on the other hand, other can no longer to play on tanks with broken damage builds, then it will no longer be possible to deal tons of damage and at the same time overcome the defense cap, or turn duels between strong players into an endless brawl for unknown hours, because due to the huge survivability of both, they cannot simply kill each other, but at the same time, players with weaker classes and builds will only be incinerated from a couple of hits, without being able to defeat them

Im confused about what i said that hurts dks? My solution would help dks by making their class passives to health recovery meaningful again. And i agree that undeath is too strong i was just saying why people started using it. This change would also benefit sorcs who have a big problem with survivability rn bc if their health regen passive being made useless

MindOfTheSwarm

Simple fix.

Flame Damage and Fighter’s Guild abilities ignore Undeath passive.

katorga

Nerfing Undeath only benefits the S-Tier classes in pvp.

1 of my classes can play without Undeath. The others are borderline unviable without it, to the point that I can tell immediately in pvp when vamp stage 3 runs out. Just saying.

Brrrofski

I think netting it would actually make for a tankier meta.

A lot would drop a damage set for survival. I think it would be worse.

The problem isn't undeath. Someone with 30k health, only damage or sustain sets and something like dual wield and bow is still easy to kill.

It's when people have 48k health, heals that scale off health, heavy armor, sword and shield, sets which give more damage mitigation and ultis that make you immortal.

techprince

Undeath should be halved.

Mrtoobyy

My bet is ZOS won't do anything about this until the end of the year EARLIEST. May take til next years chapter if they will make one.
Im glad D4 has come out so I can take a needed break from this game since the current state is so bad

Zastrix

techprince wrote: »

Undeath should be halved.

Only if rest of the vampirism is buffed. In PvE it's worthless unless for esthetic reasons and it's a BIG drawback and for PvP only the passive is good. Buff the other skills to be viable and then nerf this.

Weckless

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Simple fix.

Flame Damage and Fighter’s Guild abilities ignore Undeath passive.

Nah. This makes DKs even stronger what are you talking about lol. How about flame damage ignores the undeath passive and deals 50% damage back to the caster

Jammy420

Just put undeath at stage 4, and move stage 4 to stage three passives.

Easy, everyone wins, vampire keeps its identity.

Urzigurumash

Jammy420 wrote: »

Just put undeath at stage 4, and move stage 4 to stage three passives.

Easy, everyone wins, vampire keeps its identity.

DKs would especially win since that's a 7% buff to their damage. Read my famous poll and my first response: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/628489/dk-needs-a-13-damage-nerf

I agree with @Weckless here 100%, this is the surest way to untangle this web:

- Revert the changes to Undeath's Scaling
- Nerf the large integer sources of HP Regen which were added from 2018 - 2021
- Revert the subjection of HP Regen to Battlespirit

As to that first part, more analysis can be found in React's post here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621381/pvp-balance-in-u37-in-depth-balance-suggestions/p1

As to the second part, I'll quote myself from a comment from April 2021:
"ever-increasing integer sources of HP Regen along with ever-decreasing unique Percentile Buffs which had some opportunity cost (Orgnum's, Racial passives, Champion passives) meant that HP Regen was freely available in larger numbers to any spec that wanted it. This meant it only further increased the power of what would've been the strongest specs anyhow, without many meaningful opportunity costs " (taken from this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/571123/health-recovery-inconsistency-and-viability)

Tessitura

I am really tired of Dawnbreaker, and really tired of vampires being all over the place. There is a lot of extra none class skill trees that over preform in a big way. FIghter's guild is ridiculous, Vampire is slotted for passives only just like before which was the whole point of the rework, Duel Wield and Ice Staff is the only weapons anyone uses. Metas do always rise but the meta hasnt shifted from these in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time and outside of balance I am just bored with them and tired of seeing them.

the1andonlyskwex

Just change vampire's extra flame damage taken into extra damage taken of any type. That change would serve as both a well-deserved nerf to DKs and as a counterbalance to Undeath (where the reduced damage taken at low health would be countered by increased damage taken at medium and high health).