The Green CP Tree Needs a Total Overhaul

Heartrage

@HushAzrael
Slottables have their places in the green tree but not in the way they have been implemented. The current slottables, and movement slots especially, should be made into passives. The new ones should come with counterparts that make them a neutral gain unless you are looking for something particular.

I used this example in the thread:

A perk that makes catching fish faster but reduces the odds of getting rare fishes.
Another perk that make catching fish slower but increases the odds of getting rare fishes.

-It would make farming for roe or rare fish easier. -You would only slot one of the other because there’s no benefit in getting both. If all slots work this way, this means that we could get 4 activities slotted which should reduce the need to change slots when changing activities.
-If you don’t fish a lot, not equipping either doesn’t put you at a real disadvantage so you don’t need to switch your slots all the time.

Vetixio

Its the micromanagement for me, it'd be so much easier if half of the slottables were just passives or at least remove the timer when changing slottables, cause having to wait 2 minutes to switch passives cause you want to fish or sell stolen goods is just not it.

Jammy420

Northwold wrote: »

As others have said, it doesn't matter *which* slottables you think are most valuable in the green tree, it's that almost the entirety of the tree shouldn't be slottables at all. ALL OF THEM are nice-to-haves, NONE OF THEM is essential to any particular playstyle unless all you do with ESO is farming, say, or stealing -- the types of gameplay activity that were supposed to enrich the overall experience, not to be the *totality* of it.

Your mount speed / sustain doesn't matter. Getting an extra 10 gold from a chest doesn't matter. Getting two furnishing plans instead of one doesn't matter. Picking a flower in half a second rather than three doesn't matter.

But add them all together and then *remove them because you can only slot so many at a time* and you make doing certain things casually from time to time unbearable.

I no longer pick flowers unless I absolutely need them right now in the game because it takes a stupidly long time that it did not used to take. Why would I do that? I no longer move as fast as I used to because there are better things to slot. I don't pickpocket because the loot will be rubbish without slotting the perk.

There is no logic to it. It made the game more boring and made the really irritating grind on things that didn't need to be grindy, that used to go away as you got to a higher level, permanent.

Seriously, why? What possible advantage or pleasure does that bring to the game? "The all new, more painfully boring ESO"?

Have people forgotten this is an mmoRPG?

This isnt a math class where the only thing that matters is the maths, its an RPG for boethias sake. We have 2 champ trees that are soley for critical things. If you create a viable rp build, its nice to ACTUALLY have some RP options, and not just some passives that you forget exist most of the time. Those things might not matter to you, but to others they do. Your experience is not others experience. Yeesh

Heartrage

Jammy420 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

As others have said, it doesn't matter *which* slottables you think are most valuable in the green tree, it's that almost the entirety of the tree shouldn't be slottables at all. ALL OF THEM are nice-to-haves, NONE OF THEM is essential to any particular playstyle unless all you do with ESO is farming, say, or stealing -- the types of gameplay activity that were supposed to enrich the overall experience, not to be the *totality* of it.

Your mount speed / sustain doesn't matter. Getting an extra 10 gold from a chest doesn't matter. Getting two furnishing plans instead of one doesn't matter. Picking a flower in half a second rather than three doesn't matter.

But add them all together and then *remove them because you can only slot so many at a time* and you make doing certain things casually from time to time unbearable.

I no longer pick flowers unless I absolutely need them right now in the game because it takes a stupidly long time that it did not used to take. Why would I do that? I no longer move as fast as I used to because there are better things to slot. I don't pickpocket because the loot will be rubbish without slotting the perk.

There is no logic to it. It made the game more boring and made the really irritating grind on things that didn't need to be grindy, that used to go away as you got to a higher level, permanent.

Seriously, why? What possible advantage or pleasure does that bring to the game? "The all new, more painfully boring ESO"?

Have people forgotten this is an mmoRPG?

This isnt a math class where the only thing that matters is the maths, its an RPG for boethias sake. We have 2 champ trees that are soley for critical things. If you create a viable rp build, its nice to ACTUALLY have some RP options, and not just some passives that you forget exist most of the time. Those things might not matter to you, but to others they do. Your experience is not others experience. Yeesh

The cp system and the green tree too are as mathematical as a system can be. It doesn’t really add flourishes and the late game reward of the system is its flexibility in changing a build which is not a RP oriented thing. I wouldn’t mind RP friendly oriented changes to the cp system but the green tree isn’t it right now. It’s also reasonable to debate about the numbers of a system that’s about increasing and decreasing odds and values.

Jammy420

Heartrage wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

As others have said, it doesn't matter *which* slottables you think are most valuable in the green tree, it's that almost the entirety of the tree shouldn't be slottables at all. ALL OF THEM are nice-to-haves, NONE OF THEM is essential to any particular playstyle unless all you do with ESO is farming, say, or stealing -- the types of gameplay activity that were supposed to enrich the overall experience, not to be the *totality* of it.

Your mount speed / sustain doesn't matter. Getting an extra 10 gold from a chest doesn't matter. Getting two furnishing plans instead of one doesn't matter. Picking a flower in half a second rather than three doesn't matter.

But add them all together and then *remove them because you can only slot so many at a time* and you make doing certain things casually from time to time unbearable.

I no longer pick flowers unless I absolutely need them right now in the game because it takes a stupidly long time that it did not used to take. Why would I do that? I no longer move as fast as I used to because there are better things to slot. I don't pickpocket because the loot will be rubbish without slotting the perk.

There is no logic to it. It made the game more boring and made the really irritating grind on things that didn't need to be grindy, that used to go away as you got to a higher level, permanent.

Seriously, why? What possible advantage or pleasure does that bring to the game? "The all new, more painfully boring ESO"?

Have people forgotten this is an mmoRPG?

This isnt a math class where the only thing that matters is the maths, its an RPG for boethias sake. We have 2 champ trees that are soley for critical things. If you create a viable rp build, its nice to ACTUALLY have some RP options, and not just some passives that you forget exist most of the time. Those things might not matter to you, but to others they do. Your experience is not others experience. Yeesh

The cp system and the green tree too are as mathematical as a system can be. It doesn’t really add flourishes and the late game reward of the system is its flexibility in changing a build which is not a RP oriented thing. I wouldn’t mind RP friendly oriented changes to the cp system but the green tree isn’t it right now. It’s also reasonable to debate about the numbers of a system that’s about increasing and decreasing odds and values.

Again, you have 2 trees for combat. We do not need a third. Period. If they want to spruce up some of the perks in the green tree, thatd be great. But I much prefer the way it is now, to what is being suggested.

Northwold

Jammy420 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

As others have said, it doesn't matter *which* slottables you think are most valuable in the green tree, it's that almost the entirety of the tree shouldn't be slottables at all. ALL OF THEM are nice-to-haves, NONE OF THEM is essential to any particular playstyle unless all you do with ESO is farming, say, or stealing -- the types of gameplay activity that were supposed to enrich the overall experience, not to be the *totality* of it.

Your mount speed / sustain doesn't matter. Getting an extra 10 gold from a chest doesn't matter. Getting two furnishing plans instead of one doesn't matter. Picking a flower in half a second rather than three doesn't matter.

But add them all together and then *remove them because you can only slot so many at a time* and you make doing certain things casually from time to time unbearable.

I no longer pick flowers unless I absolutely need them right now in the game because it takes a stupidly long time that it did not used to take. Why would I do that? I no longer move as fast as I used to because there are better things to slot. I don't pickpocket because the loot will be rubbish without slotting the perk.

There is no logic to it. It made the game more boring and made the really irritating grind on things that didn't need to be grindy, that used to go away as you got to a higher level, permanent.

Seriously, why? What possible advantage or pleasure does that bring to the game? "The all new, more painfully boring ESO"?

Have people forgotten this is an mmoRPG?

This isnt a math class where the only thing that matters is the maths, its an RPG for boethias sake. We have 2 champ trees that are soley for critical things. If you create a viable rp build, its nice to ACTUALLY have some RP options, and not just some passives that you forget exist most of the time. Those things might not matter to you, but to others they do. Your experience is not others experience. Yeesh

On the contrary, I'm saying the skills in the green tree DO matter to almost every player in small but cumulatively extremely irritating ways. In that they make the basic gameplay experience *for everyone* more tolerable.

As such, they should *not* need to be slotted because it makes casual interaction with those aspects of gameplay that you haven't slotted plain bad. It was a step backwards that -- I imagine for many more players than want to roleplay specifically one niche and do nothing else -- made the game *worse* than it was before.

It is very hard to believe that anyone enjoys the idea of changing slots to pick up one flower, changing slots again to loot a chest, changing slots a third time to pickpocket someone, and a fourth time to drink a potion. All things that more or less *everyone* will do every so often in casual gameplay. Although they might do them significantly less than they used to now that the experience feels exactly the same as it was at level 50.

Who are these players who only fish and loot chests, or only move fast and pickpocket. So instead of what we had before, now we have a situation where a good half of the casual open world activities in the game at any one time are artificially crimped. It is absolutely ridiculous.

jtm1018

Make all cp skill passive, and done.

Tyvm.

spartaxoxo

Northwold wrote: »

Who are these players who only fish and loot chests, or only move fast and pickpocket. So instead of what we had before, now we have a situation where a good half of the casual open world activities in the game at any one time are artificially crimped. It is absolutely ridiculous.

Yes. I agree. The way I handle it as I only change my green slottables when I will be extensively interacting with that causal activity. Like if I'm fishing for ROE rather than just hitting one node until a boss respawns. I also have a dedicated character for stealing. Or if I'm farming surveys, treasure hunter comes off and master gatherer is slotted.

However, everytime I hit something knowing that it won't benefit from slottables that I have earned, I do feel a bit of irritation. Not enough to constantly change slottables, but enough I do resent the green tree a bit.

TaSheen

After years in this game, I'm not fussed about green slottables. Seriously. I have several million in mats in the craft bag, so it's not a problem if I don't swap a star.

I repeat - I'm not into micromanagement.

Yes, this could be a problem for people without the number of CP points to get something they think they want or need. That's not on me - it's on ZOS.

Heartrage

Jammy420 wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

As others have said, it doesn't matter *which* slottables you think are most valuable in the green tree, it's that almost the entirety of the tree shouldn't be slottables at all. ALL OF THEM are nice-to-haves, NONE OF THEM is essential to any particular playstyle unless all you do with ESO is farming, say, or stealing -- the types of gameplay activity that were supposed to enrich the overall experience, not to be the *totality* of it.

Your mount speed / sustain doesn't matter. Getting an extra 10 gold from a chest doesn't matter. Getting two furnishing plans instead of one doesn't matter. Picking a flower in half a second rather than three doesn't matter.

But add them all together and then *remove them because you can only slot so many at a time* and you make doing certain things casually from time to time unbearable.

I no longer pick flowers unless I absolutely need them right now in the game because it takes a stupidly long time that it did not used to take. Why would I do that? I no longer move as fast as I used to because there are better things to slot. I don't pickpocket because the loot will be rubbish without slotting the perk.

There is no logic to it. It made the game more boring and made the really irritating grind on things that didn't need to be grindy, that used to go away as you got to a higher level, permanent.

Seriously, why? What possible advantage or pleasure does that bring to the game? "The all new, more painfully boring ESO"?

Have people forgotten this is an mmoRPG?

This isnt a math class where the only thing that matters is the maths, its an RPG for boethias sake. We have 2 champ trees that are soley for critical things. If you create a viable rp build, its nice to ACTUALLY have some RP options, and not just some passives that you forget exist most of the time. Those things might not matter to you, but to others they do. Your experience is not others experience. Yeesh

The cp system and the green tree too are as mathematical as a system can be. It doesn’t really add flourishes and the late game reward of the system is its flexibility in changing a build which is not a RP oriented thing. I wouldn’t mind RP friendly oriented changes to the cp system but the green tree isn’t it right now. It’s also reasonable to debate about the numbers of a system that’s about increasing and decreasing odds and values.

Again, you have 2 trees for combat. We do not need a third. Period. If they want to spruce up some of the perks in the green tree, thatd be great. But I much prefer the way it is now, to what is being suggested.

I never said that the green tree should be about combat and I haven’t seen anyone suggest this.

fall0athboy

I slot the Reel Technique and Angler's Instincts temporarily as I fish.

Wanderer is a passive, not an active.

Hotdog_23

Console players get shafted because of the system ZOS created on purpose. In fact the reason for the time delay in switching slottables is because of the Jack of Trade add-on which I find hilarious. They never said that directly, but after it was made obvious on the forums about it when the change was made.

 Rather than throw use a bone, they made the choice to continue to punish us for no reason other than just because they can in the name magic word “performance”. We have begged for ZOS to change or improve the system, but we are ignored. How much of a performance hit would it be to give us 6-8 slottables in the green tree only? Seriously doubt anyone would even be able to tell a difference. 

Stay safe

Gnesnig

Heartrage wrote: »

I.e. a perk that increase the speed that you get fish but also significantly decrease the odds of getting rare fishes. This is great to farm roe but sucks if you want to get the fishing achievements. A perk that does the opposite could also be part of the secondary fishing perk tree.

No thanks. Having negatives with a positive doesn't work, it's actually what the last major overhaul did: remove the negatives and diminishing returns of passives in the trees.

The thing is that a lot of the slottables are needed when mucking about in overland. You'd combine fast travel, fast harvest, fishing, opening chests and killing random mobs, which can drop furnishing patterns.

If I want to slot as a thief / assassin, now that makes sense for those to be slottable. Wayshrine usage, higher quest reward, those are passives that make more sense as slottables to me. Slottables in the other tree are also about making choices, you can't get everything you want there. But they do tailor more to a specific role and/or strategy and anyone that isn't constantly in dungeons needs access to most of the slottables, just doing the basics, not something specific as one role.

I do believe, stealth/crime related makes sense as slottables as it is a specific role.

Titanium

If PC players are allowed to use the Jack of All trades add-on, then that feature should be allowed on consoles too. It makes no sense to me at all to have to keep swapping all these out all the time, even when you are at CP3600. Maybe that should be the incentive? When you reach MAX CP, we get Jack of All Trades on Console?

Hurbster

QoL stuff should not be slottable at all. The green tree is all QoL stuff.

Nothing in the green tree should be slottable.

derkaiserliche

For me the whole cp tree needs to be overhauled. I stopped caring for levels when i reached cp 1400. Before it felt awesome to level up since you actually got stronger. The green tree needs a lot more passives or more slottables, most of them are by far not good enough to be an active perk.

I feel like the orange tree needs some love as well with different perks.

I hope some day it will be worth grinding to 3600cp again.

ACamaroGuy

Anything on the green tree should just be given to you. You should not have to slot anything from the green tree. The blue & red trees should move up to five slots from four.

Jammy420

Heartrage wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Heartrage wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

As others have said, it doesn't matter *which* slottables you think are most valuable in the green tree, it's that almost the entirety of the tree shouldn't be slottables at all. ALL OF THEM are nice-to-haves, NONE OF THEM is essential to any particular playstyle unless all you do with ESO is farming, say, or stealing -- the types of gameplay activity that were supposed to enrich the overall experience, not to be the *totality* of it.

Your mount speed / sustain doesn't matter. Getting an extra 10 gold from a chest doesn't matter. Getting two furnishing plans instead of one doesn't matter. Picking a flower in half a second rather than three doesn't matter.

But add them all together and then *remove them because you can only slot so many at a time* and you make doing certain things casually from time to time unbearable.

I no longer pick flowers unless I absolutely need them right now in the game because it takes a stupidly long time that it did not used to take. Why would I do that? I no longer move as fast as I used to because there are better things to slot. I don't pickpocket because the loot will be rubbish without slotting the perk.

There is no logic to it. It made the game more boring and made the really irritating grind on things that didn't need to be grindy, that used to go away as you got to a higher level, permanent.

Seriously, why? What possible advantage or pleasure does that bring to the game? "The all new, more painfully boring ESO"?

Have people forgotten this is an mmoRPG?

This isnt a math class where the only thing that matters is the maths, its an RPG for boethias sake. We have 2 champ trees that are soley for critical things. If you create a viable rp build, its nice to ACTUALLY have some RP options, and not just some passives that you forget exist most of the time. Those things might not matter to you, but to others they do. Your experience is not others experience. Yeesh

The cp system and the green tree too are as mathematical as a system can be. It doesn’t really add flourishes and the late game reward of the system is its flexibility in changing a build which is not a RP oriented thing. I wouldn’t mind RP friendly oriented changes to the cp system but the green tree isn’t it right now. It’s also reasonable to debate about the numbers of a system that’s about increasing and decreasing odds and values.

Again, you have 2 trees for combat. We do not need a third. Period. If they want to spruce up some of the perks in the green tree, thatd be great. But I much prefer the way it is now, to what is being suggested.

I never said that the green tree should be about combat and I haven’t seen anyone suggest this.

You want it more like the other trees and it to be " useful ". To me, and many others, it is useful already. Stop trying to change things that arent broken.

Jammy420

TaSheen wrote: »

After years in this game, I'm not fussed about green slottables. Seriously. I have several million in mats in the craft bag, so it's not a problem if I don't swap a star.

I repeat - I'm not into micromanagement.

Yes, this could be a problem for people without the number of CP points to get something they think they want or need. That's not on me - it's on ZOS.

Then they just need to play more.

redlink1979

What the green tree really needs is to have more passive stars than slottable stars.

Jammy420

redlink1979 wrote: »

What the green tree really needs is to have more passive stars than slottable stars.

That would be better. But a complete overhaul is just absurd, as some are suggesting. This game needs WAY less sweeping changes, and far more small precise changes.

wolfie1.0.

The irony I feel is that based in the comments that people have posted, the green tree actually provides the most varied of selections between the trees. I am curious, tell me this. In your various builds how much variation do you have between your builds?

For example say you have two pve tanks a Warden and a DK which perks do you slot from the blue or brown tree? Now do the same for pvp dps, pve dps, etc.

I personally find that I am slotting the same ones over and over.

Personally, I like the green tree. And don't mock Plentiful Harvest or meticulous disassembly, if player feedback gets those skills nerfed or removed from the green tree then I NEVER want to see another post about how mat prices are too high on these forums. These skill lines are essential to resource farmers

All things considered though, the cp2.0 system has always been about the illusion of choice, and with the armory system that had been reinforced. Because really players are always going to max out their passives and then slot the most useful active skills for what they like to do and then not mess with them. Which means that any cp earned beyond that point... is pointless.

Jammy420

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

The irony I feel is that based in the comments that people have posted, the green tree actually provides the most varied of selections between the trees. I am curious, tell me this. In your various builds how much variation do you have between your builds?

For example say you have two pve tanks a Warden and a DK which perks do you slot from the blue or brown tree? Now do the same for pvp dps, pve dps, etc.

I personally find that I am slotting the same ones over and over.

Personally, I like the green tree. And don't mock Plentiful Harvest or meticulous disassembly, if player feedback gets those skills nerfed or removed from the green tree then I NEVER want to see another post about how mat prices are too high on these forums. These skill lines are essential to resource farmers

All things considered though, the cp2.0 system has always been about the illusion of choice, and with the armory system that had been reinforced. Because really players are always going to max out their passives and then slot the most useful active skills for what they like to do and then not mess with them. Which means that any cp earned beyond that point... is pointless.

All three of my characters use different constellations in the green tree. Not at my pc right now, but specifically my argonian necromancer, Plays With Spirits, who runs two potion based armor sets, Skooma Smuggler and Clever Alchemist, uses the fishing, and potion ones, the harvest one and the extra loot one. In pvp I use both horse stars, the potion, and the food length ( artaeum pickled fish bowl is expensssssive ). I like to make RP builds that work well in pvp and pve, and right now, the green tree is great. Are my buids meta? Absolutely not, do I still kill meta players with a moderate amount of effort? Absolutely. And I can finish vet content with her too.

Gnesnig

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

For example say you have two pve tanks a Warden and a DK which perks do you slot from the blue or brown tree? Now do the same for pvp dps, pve dps, etc.

I personally find that I am slotting the same ones over and over.

I don't. And I may even swap for certain encounters. For example, as a necro off-tank, I slot reaving blows over one of the defensive in the blue tree (forgot what it's called, think ironclad or from the brink), but if main tank, I slot the defensive.
For dungeons and trials where speed is needed I slot celerity over Fortified on my DK tank.

On DPS in dungeons where you can bring trash to a boss or boss spawns a lot of adds I prefer Occult Overload over Thaumaturge. So yeah, I do make choices and sometimes they are hard, but they are role based and/or situational. But a lot of the slottables in the Green tree are used in the same context and situation, which is what prompted add-ons like Jack of all Trades.

And yes, Alphagear, Wizard's Wardrobe and Dressing Room also address the issues with swapping slottables (and gear and skills) for different situations. Dressing Room can even switch when moving to a certain encounter within a trial. But you don't swtich within 10 seconds from one set to the next and when trying to optimise your basic overland harvesting, chest looting, mucking about, it's quite normal that you'd slot and reslot within seconds. And I think that's the main point of this topic.

Northwold

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Personally, I like the green tree. And don't mock Plentiful Harvest or meticulous disassembly, if player feedback gets those skills nerfed or removed from the green tree then I NEVER want to see another post about how mat prices are too high on these forums. These skill lines are essential to resource farmers

I don't think many, or indeed any, players are arguing for those skills to be nerfed here. They're saying that they need to be passives so that they function at all times.

Someone else is saying that the green tree "isn't broken" (ie this part of the message is not a reply to you). Well, that's an opinion. But given the other opinions on this thread, I'm not sure most people agree with you.

Titanium

redlink1979 wrote: »

What the green tree really needs is to have more passive stars than slottable stars.

This is actually the best solution I've heard in this entire discussion.

We can also make everything in the green tree just passives and not bother about slotting them. How the green tree works does not have to mirror the red and blue trees.

Kendaric

Titanium wrote: »

We can also make everything in the green tree just passives and not bother about slotting them. How the green tree works does not have to mirror the red and blue trees.

So basically everyone with enough CP would have everything at all times, while newer players with low or no CP get shafted. I can see that go over well...

Some abilities absolutely need to stay as slotable. Want them? Then sacrifice another slotable star for them.

Northwold

Kendaric wrote: »

Titanium wrote: »

We can also make everything in the green tree just passives and not bother about slotting them. How the green tree works does not have to mirror the red and blue trees.

So basically everyone with enough CP would have everything at all times, while newer players with low or no CP get shafted. I can see that go over well...

Some abilities absolutely need to stay as slotable. Want them? Then sacrifice another slotable star for them.

And none of those abilities are in the green tree.... That is exactly the way the setup was before and I don't recall players complaining because nothing in that section of skills wins you fights. It just makes your life a bit easier / more tolerable the further you progress in the game and the more fed up you get with its artificial limitations.

richo262

Kendaric wrote: »

Titanium wrote: »

We can also make everything in the green tree just passives and not bother about slotting them. How the green tree works does not have to mirror the red and blue trees.

So basically everyone with enough CP would have everything at all times, while newer players with low or no CP get shafted. I can see that go over well...

Some abilities absolutely need to stay as slotable. Want them? Then sacrifice another slotable star for them.

I can assure you, two players in a duel, one with all green perks, the other with none. Unless they go horse riding mid fight, or decide to run a marathon, the outcome would not be decided by the Green tree.

The Green tree is primarily QOL. The few perks that may give some sort of debateable non direct combat advantage such as run speed are easily obtainable by anyone with low CP, one isn't even attached to the rail and can be acquired straight away.

Kendaric

Not everything in ESO revolves around combat...

If everything in the craft tree (green tree) became passives, it would affect low/no CP players.
Things like reduced repair costs, reduced stamina cost for sneak, etc. all have an impact on the way the game is played and that impact is not necessarily trivial.

But I guess we have to agree to disagree.