CC Break has been broken this entire patch - Zenimax has ignored this

React

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

When the scribes of fate patch launched on PC, many people noticed something was seriously wrong with break free. Every single time you break free, you cannot see any character animations for about 1-2 seconds. If you break free and activate block, cast a skill, light attack, heavy attack, use an ultimate, or whatever - your character visually just stands there and does nothing.

I reported this bug on March 15th here on the forums, although there were multiple ingame tickets sent as early as the first day of the patch. Here is the thread where I reported this bug.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629361/u37-pc-break-free-animation-is-horrendously-bugged-in-pvp-with-video-explanation/p1

On March 16, @ZOS_Kevin said the following;

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@React Thanks for noting this. We just checked in with the team, they are aware of this bug and investigating a fix. Once we have more info on this, we'll update.

Following this, I confirmed the bug was still present after the incremental on 3/27, after the incremental on 4/11, I provided a video on 4/14 showing how the bug was still present and also in PVE, and again confirmed the bug was still present after the 4/24 incremental. This thread did not receive another comment following Kevin's 3/16 response.

On March 28th, I made a second thread regarding this bug and several other gamebreaking combat bugs that got introduced in the scribes of fate patch.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/630176/hey-console-players-when-the-patch-finishes-today-try-to-do-this/p1

@ZOS_GinaBruno Commented on this thread on 3/28, and again repeated Kevin's statement that they were aware of the bugs, and working on a fix.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that while this will be an issue with today's console patch, we are aware of these issues and are working on getting some fixes tested. We'll keep you posted on when you can expect the fixes to go live.

The next day on 3/29, @ZOS_GinaBruno said the following;

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey folks, just to follow up here, both fixes have passed QA and we are planning to include them in the next PC and console incremental patches, both of which are scheduled for the week of April 10.

This comment indicates that the bug was to be fixed in the April 10th incremental, which actually ended up being the April 11th incremental due to an unrelated issue. The bug was not fixed in this incremental. Zenimax did not ever acknowledge this bug past this point.

When the PTS launched on April 17th, I logged in and immediately noticed the bug was fixed. I commented on the initial bug report thread and tagged both Kevin and Gina, asking about the fix and whether we would receive it in an upcoming live incremental, or if we would have to wait until Necrom in June to receive the fix. Neither of them ever responded. There have been 3 Incremental patches now on the live server since the PTS launched on April 17th, and the bug has not been fixed.

Here is a video from today, 5/11, showing side by side how CC break works on the live server and how it works on the PTS. I included my controller overlay on screen so you can see the inputs being pressed. Please note, this issue is not related to controller and is present on mouse and keyboard as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0HuwrngVfE
This indicates that Zenimax has resolved the issue, but doesn't deem it important enough to push the fix live. They're allowing a core combat function to remain completely broken. This comes after last patch where block was broken for nearly 3 months. Earlier this year, we received an apology from @ZOS_RichLambert for the problems and we were promised that they would "do better".

ZOS_RichLambert wrote:

Now that things have settled down a bit from Firesong’s PC/Mac launch, we wanted to thank everyone for your patience. It was a rougher than normal launch – especially on the stability side. Without sugar coating things, we dropped the ball – no excuses, we will do better in the future.

So, when are you going to start doing better? When are you going to communicate about core combat mechanics being broken in a timely fashion? When are you going to treat your customer base like they matter, and like ESO is a product you actually care about? When can we expect break free to work properly?

KainedED

Pain and suffering

Dr_Con

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

VixxVexx

React still keeping up the fight. Bump

React

Dr_Con wrote: »

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

If the developers cannot infer how not being able to see what your character is doing following a break free is impactful to combat, they are unfit to be combat designers.

virtus753

Dr_Con wrote: »

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

In one of the threads I noted that my partner managed to cancel all the visuals of DK standard. I couldn’t see it or tell I was in it except for the damage that was hitting me. She did the same with Wall of Elements the next duel. We were testing to see what would happen, but imagine that anywhere in actual PvP. There’s a reason enemy telegraphs exist, and this bug allows people to negate them entirely.

Credible_Joe

React wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

If the developers cannot infer how not being able to see what your character is doing following a break free is impactful to combat, they are unfit to be combat designers.

If the fix is live on PTS then that means it's tied up with the Necrom game version. That's all there is to it.

It's easy to think of the game like it's a car where any issue can be isolated, taken out, repaired, and put back. But every single aspect of the code is tied to dozens of others in dozens of ways that no single developer has complete comprehension of. That's just the nature of collective programming.

All this means is that they can't easily divorce the fix from other parts of the code that are married to the chapter launch. That's the way it works out sometimes.

You might think they're unfit to be combat designers, but just about everyone on the forums is unfit to be a software engineer. So please, manage your expectations. Debugging and troubleshooting is an extremely exhausting and demanding task with pressure from every dimension; players, managers, partners, colleagues.

CameraBeardThePirate

Look, I know this sounds cynical, but the answer to the question of "When will you stop x y z" is never.

The same issues have been plaguing the game for years now. Nothing has changed, and if you continue to expect change, you will continue to be disappointed.

Communication hasn't changed in the slightest. Don't hold your breath for any improvement.

React

Credible_Joe wrote: »

React wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

If the developers cannot infer how not being able to see what your character is doing following a break free is impactful to combat, they are unfit to be combat designers.

If the fix is live on PTS then that means it's tied up with the Necrom game version. That's all there is to it.

It's easy to think of the game like it's a car where any issue can be isolated, taken out, repaired, and put back. But every single aspect of the code is tied to dozens of others in dozens of ways that no single developer has complete comprehension of. That's just the nature of collective programming.

All this means is that they can't easily divorce the fix from other parts of the code that are married to the chapter launch. That's the way it works out sometimes.

You might think they're unfit to be combat designers, but just about everyone on the forums is unfit to be a software engineer. So please, manage your expectations. Debugging and troubleshooting is an extremely exhausting and demanding task with pressure from every dimension; players, managers, partners, colleagues.

Seems you're glossing over the part where they explicitly stated "The fix for this bug has passed QA and will be included in the incremental patch on April 10th". I'm certainly no software engineer, but my understanding is that when something passes QA, they've confirmed that the issue has been resolved.

My expectation is that the core combat system of the game functions the way it should 8 years after launch. Last patch block was broken for 3 months. This patch every button combination function on gamepad was broken, and this CC break animation bug was introduced as well.

My bare minimum expectation is that if they break something as crucial as the core combat system, they should be giving us clear and frequent updates on the issue. Instead, they claimed it would be fixed over a month ago, it wasn't fixed, and now we're being given radio silence.

You're insinuating that these expectations are too high to ask of the studio managing a AAA MMO, which frankly I find laughable.

Four_Fingers

Yes bugs happen.
With that being said they could at least explain what is going on rather than hiding from it.

React

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Look, I know this sounds cynical, but the answer to the question of "When will you stop x y z" is never.

The same issues have been plaguing the game for years now. Nothing has changed, and if you continue to expect change, you will continue to be disappointed.

Communication hasn't changed in the slightest. Don't hold your breath for any improvement.

Zenimax has obviously adopted a strategy of "if nobody complains about it, we'll pretend it doesn't exist". My only goal making posts like this is to draw attention to glaring issues that aren't receiving the attention they deserve.

Is there something wrong with making an effort to improve a game you enjoy playing?

Credible_Joe

React wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

React wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

If the developers cannot infer how not being able to see what your character is doing following a break free is impactful to combat, they are unfit to be combat designers.

If the fix is live on PTS then that means it's tied up with the Necrom game version. That's all there is to it.

It's easy to think of the game like it's a car where any issue can be isolated, taken out, repaired, and put back. But every single aspect of the code is tied to dozens of others in dozens of ways that no single developer has complete comprehension of. That's just the nature of collective programming.

All this means is that they can't easily divorce the fix from other parts of the code that are married to the chapter launch. That's the way it works out sometimes.

You might think they're unfit to be combat designers, but just about everyone on the forums is unfit to be a software engineer. So please, manage your expectations. Debugging and troubleshooting is an extremely exhausting and demanding task with pressure from every dimension; players, managers, partners, colleagues.

Seems you're glossing over the part where they explicitly stated "The fix for this bug had passed QA and will be included in the incremental patch on April 10th".

My expectation is that the core combat system of the game functions the way it should 8 years after launch. Last patch block was broken for 3 months. This patch every button combination function on gamepad was broken, and this CC break animation bug was introduced as well.

My bare minimum expectation is that if they break something as crucial as the core combat system, they should be giving us clear and frequent updates on the issue. Instead, they claimed it would be fixed over a month ago, it wasn't fixed, and now we're being given radio silence.

You're insinuating that these expectations are too high to ask of the studio managing a AAA MMO, which frankly I find laughable.

I promise you, the developers would love to go in depth on the nature of the bug, why it was so hard to fix, and why it was delayed from their original estimated launch. There are definitely reasons.

But doing that every single time the peanut gallery demands would waste more time than fixing the bug would have taken. Which is why a community engagement team communicates with players, not developers.

Feel free to bag on them for the radio silence, but I'm pretty sure they don't know enough details to give a satisfying answer. Hell, they might have just made a mistake with the time estimate to begin with. Miscommunications happen, especially between departments. QA could have sounded off that the fix passed, and player engagement assumed it was for the next incremental. That's two departments removed from development. Who knows?

The fix is live on PTS. We can see that. What more is there to say? You can ask them to clarify the miscommunication, but demanding it with this much entitlement is not likely to merit response.

In fact, responding at all to this much hostility is strictly discouraged from any PR perspective. It sets a bad example of rewarding toxic engagement.

So ultimately what I'm insinuating is that your thread was dead on arrival just from your approach. Acting like you're their manager with a negative reinforcement productivity strategy never had a chance of getting a response to begin with.

React

Credible_Joe wrote: »

React wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

React wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

If the developers cannot infer how not being able to see what your character is doing following a break free is impactful to combat, they are unfit to be combat designers.

If the fix is live on PTS then that means it's tied up with the Necrom game version. That's all there is to it.

It's easy to think of the game like it's a car where any issue can be isolated, taken out, repaired, and put back. But every single aspect of the code is tied to dozens of others in dozens of ways that no single developer has complete comprehension of. That's just the nature of collective programming.

All this means is that they can't easily divorce the fix from other parts of the code that are married to the chapter launch. That's the way it works out sometimes.

You might think they're unfit to be combat designers, but just about everyone on the forums is unfit to be a software engineer. So please, manage your expectations. Debugging and troubleshooting is an extremely exhausting and demanding task with pressure from every dimension; players, managers, partners, colleagues.

Seems you're glossing over the part where they explicitly stated "The fix for this bug had passed QA and will be included in the incremental patch on April 10th".

My expectation is that the core combat system of the game functions the way it should 8 years after launch. Last patch block was broken for 3 months. This patch every button combination function on gamepad was broken, and this CC break animation bug was introduced as well.

My bare minimum expectation is that if they break something as crucial as the core combat system, they should be giving us clear and frequent updates on the issue. Instead, they claimed it would be fixed over a month ago, it wasn't fixed, and now we're being given radio silence.

You're insinuating that these expectations are too high to ask of the studio managing a AAA MMO, which frankly I find laughable.

I promise you, the developers would love to go in depth on the nature of the bug, why it was so hard to fix, and why it was delayed from their original estimated launch. There are definitely reasons.

But doing that every single time the peanut gallery demands would waste more time than fixing the bug would have taken. Which is why a community engagement team communicates with players, not developers.

Feel free to bag on them for the radio silence, but I'm pretty sure they don't know enough details to give a satisfying answer. Hell, they might have just made a mistake with the time estimate to begin with. Miscommunications happen, especially between departments. QA could have sounded off that the fix passed, and player engagement assumed it was for the next incremental. That's two departments removed from development. Who knows?

The fix is live on PTS. We can see that. What more is there to say? You can ask them to clarify the miscommunication, but demanding it with this much entitlement is not likely to merit response.

In fact, responding at all to this much hostility is strictly discouraged from any PR perspective. It sets a bad example of rewarding toxic engagement.

So ultimately what I'm insinuating is that your thread was dead on arrival just from your approach. Acting like you're their manager with a negative reinforcement productivity strategy never had a chance of getting a response to begin with.

There's certainly merit in parts of your comment here, like the potential disconnect between departments. But your attempt at gaslighting me as some "toxic faux manager" is pretty transparent.

The fact is that this studio has mismanaged communication, bugfixing, and performance for almost the entire lifespan of this game. Posts like this one aren't spawned from feeling wronged by one specific bug that was allowed to fester a bit too long; this is the product of years of neglect and failure to make good on promises to the playerbase.

Honestly? They ignored the gamepad issues from earlier this patch until I made a very similar post. I'm pretty certain given the obscure nature of those bugs, that if I hadn't gone to those lengths to get their attention they wouldn't have been resolved.

I wish I could approach zenimax in a much more respectful manner than this. Their lack of communication and acknowledgement of core issues prompts this sort of response, unfortunately.

SaffronCitrusflower

Thank you for keeping this issue on the front burner.

CameraBeardThePirate

React wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Look, I know this sounds cynical, but the answer to the question of "When will you stop x y z" is never.

The same issues have been plaguing the game for years now. Nothing has changed, and if you continue to expect change, you will continue to be disappointed.

Communication hasn't changed in the slightest. Don't hold your breath for any improvement.

Zenimax has obviously adopted a strategy of "if nobody complains about it, we'll pretend it doesn't exist". My only goal making posts like this is to draw attention to glaring issues that aren't receiving the attention they deserve.

Is there something wrong with making an effort to improve a game you enjoy playing?

I'm not saying you shouldn't be making these posts, but at a certain point it becomes evident that ZOS just doesn't care about these issues nearly as much as the playerbase does.

Credible_Joe

React wrote: »

There's certainly merit in parts of your comment here, like the potential disconnect between departments. But your attempt at gaslighting me as some "toxic faux manager" is pretty transparent.

The fact is that this studio has mismanaged communication, bugfixing, and performance for almost the entire lifespan of this game. Posts like this one aren't spawned from feeling wronged by one specific bug that was allowed to fester a bit too long; this is the product of years of neglect and failure to make good on promises to the playerbase.

Honestly? They ignored the gamepad issues from earlier this patch until I made a very similar post. I'm pretty certain given the obscure nature of those bugs, that if I hadn't gone to those lengths to get their attention they wouldn't have been resolved.

I wish I could approach zenimax in a much more respectful manner than this. Their lack of communication and acknowledgement of core issues prompts this sort of response, unfortunately.

Accusing someone of gaslighting when they're not, is gaslighting. Your thread reeks of entitlement, shaming the studio for their communication approach, calling them unfit to design games, and demanding engagement.

And are you saying that this thread will push them to address the issue when it's already fixed on PTS?

And lastly, what exactly is preventing you from approaching this more respectfully?

Marcus684

React wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

When the scribes of fate patch launched on PC, many people noticed something was seriously wrong with break free. Every single time you break free, you cannot see any character animations for about 1-2 seconds. If you break free and activate block, cast a skill, light attack, heavy attack, use an ultimate, or whatever - your character visually just stands there and does nothing.

I reported this bug on March 15th here on the forums, although there were multiple ingame tickets sent as early as the first day of the patch. Here is the thread where I reported this bug.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629361/u37-pc-break-free-animation-is-horrendously-bugged-in-pvp-with-video-explanation/p1

On March 16, @ZOS_Kevin said the following;

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@React Thanks for noting this. We just checked in with the team, they are aware of this bug and investigating a fix. Once we have more info on this, we'll update.

Following this, I confirmed the bug was still present after the incremental on 3/27, after the incremental on 4/11, I provided a video on 4/14 showing how the bug was still present and also in PVE, and again confirmed the bug was still present after the 4/24 incremental. This thread did not receive another comment following Kevin's 3/16 response.

On March 28th, I made a second thread regarding this bug and several other gamebreaking combat bugs that got introduced in the scribes of fate patch.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/630176/hey-console-players-when-the-patch-finishes-today-try-to-do-this/p1

@ZOS_GinaBruno Commented on this thread on 3/28, and again repeated Kevin's statement that they were aware of the bugs, and working on a fix.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that while this will be an issue with today's console patch, we are aware of these issues and are working on getting some fixes tested. We'll keep you posted on when you can expect the fixes to go live.

The next day on 3/29, @ZOS_GinaBruno said the following;

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey folks, just to follow up here, both fixes have passed QA and we are planning to include them in the next PC and console incremental patches, both of which are scheduled for the week of April 10.

This comment indicates that the bug was to be fixed in the April 10th incremental, which actually ended up being the April 11th incremental due to an unrelated issue. The bug was not fixed in this incremental. Zenimax did not ever acknowledge this bug past this point.

When the PTS launched on April 17th, I logged in and immediately noticed the bug was fixed. I commented on the initial bug report thread and tagged both Kevin and Gina, asking about the fix and whether we would receive it in an upcoming live incremental, or if we would have to wait until Necrom in June to receive the fix. Neither of them ever responded. There have been 3 Incremental patches now on the live server since the PTS launched on April 17th, and the bug has not been fixed.

Here is a video from today, 5/11, showing side by side how CC break works on the live server and how it works on the PTS. I included my controller overlay on screen so you can see the inputs being pressed. Please note, this issue is not related to controller and is present on mouse and keyboard as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0HuwrngVfE
This indicates that Zenimax has resolved the issue, but doesn't deem it important enough to push the fix live. They're allowing a core combat function to remain completely broken. This comes after last patch where block was broken for nearly 3 months. Earlier this year, we received an apology from @ZOS_RichLambert for the problems and we were promised that they would "do better".

ZOS_RichLambert wrote:

Now that things have settled down a bit from Firesong’s PC/Mac launch, we wanted to thank everyone for your patience. It was a rougher than normal launch – especially on the stability side. Without sugar coating things, we dropped the ball – no excuses, we will do better in the future.

So, when are you going to start doing better? When are you going to communicate about core combat mechanics being broken in a timely fashion? When are you going to treat your customer base like they matter, and like ESO is a product you actually care about? When can we expect break free to work properly?

IMHO, if you're getting this worked up about this, maybe it's time to take a break and get some perspective. I've seen it in others from time to time and felt it in myself more than once. At the end of the day though it's just a game. Something not working properly and not being fixed when you think it should is trivial in the grand scheme of life.

Please take this in the spirit that it's intended, as encouragement rather than criticism. These forums can be a very negative place and I'm just as guilty as anyone in contributing to this, but I'm trying to do better.

Dr_Con

virtus753 wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

There are many visual glitches in the game. I think if you shared how this negatively (edit: or positively, as it seems like the animation cancelling is being done for you) impacts your ability to play the game, rather than just reporting it as a visual glitch, it might be more likely to get priority/taken seriously.

In one of the threads I noted that my partner managed to cancel all the visuals of DK standard. I couldn’t see it or tell I was in it except for the damage that was hitting me. She did the same with Wall of Elements the next duel. We were testing to see what would happen, but imagine that anywhere in actual PvP. There’s a reason enemy telegraphs exist, and this bug allows people to negate them entirely.

This comment puts things into perspective nicely and describes why it should get fixed sooner rather than later, and shares how it's not just an animation being cancelled, but instead it can be an entire area effect being omitted and therefore abusable glitch that can give players an unfair advantage in PVP.


The original report showed a crushing shock animation not going through in a time dilated clip of 8 seconds with weapon swaps and multiple attempts to use a potion on cooldown, with some bashing thrown in.

With replicated footage of what virtus is describing, i'm sure it would be seen as more "severe" whereas a missing crushing shock animation may be seen as "benign," and they would have provided more updates.

React

Credible_Joe wrote: »

React wrote: »

There's certainly merit in parts of your comment here, like the potential disconnect between departments. But your attempt at gaslighting me as some "toxic faux manager" is pretty transparent.

The fact is that this studio has mismanaged communication, bugfixing, and performance for almost the entire lifespan of this game. Posts like this one aren't spawned from feeling wronged by one specific bug that was allowed to fester a bit too long; this is the product of years of neglect and failure to make good on promises to the playerbase.

Honestly? They ignored the gamepad issues from earlier this patch until I made a very similar post. I'm pretty certain given the obscure nature of those bugs, that if I hadn't gone to those lengths to get their attention they wouldn't have been resolved.

I wish I could approach zenimax in a much more respectful manner than this. Their lack of communication and acknowledgement of core issues prompts this sort of response, unfortunately.

Accusing someone of gaslighting when they're not, is gaslighting. Your thread reeks of entitlement, shaming the studio for their communication approach, calling them unfit to design games, and demanding engagement.

And are you saying that this thread will push them to address the issue when it's already fixed on PTS?

And lastly, what exactly is preventing you from approaching this more respectfully?

Do you think their communication approach has been adequate thus far? They did after all have to make a post addressing the lack of it earlier this year, and promising to do better.

Do you think their failure to fix cyrodiil performance in 7 consecutive years, or their continual introduction of gamebreaking combat bugs every patch (that are reported on the PTS but allowed to go live regardless) is indicative of a development team that is doing an adequate job of developing the game?

I'm suggesting that threads like this - ones that provide valid criticism with clear cut examples of where the issues lie - are necessary.

Well, did you take a moment to glance at the initial bug report I linked? The one where I respectfully requested updates on this issue, before and after the supposed date of the fix past? Where I spent my own time creating detailed videos and explanations of the problem?

Examples like that are exactly why I personally deem posts like this necessary. Respect begets respect, and as a player who mainly participates in PVP and combat, I don't feel like my community has received that.

Marcus684 wrote: »

React wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

When the scribes of fate patch launched on PC, many people noticed something was seriously wrong with break free. Every single time you break free, you cannot see any character animations for about 1-2 seconds. If you break free and activate block, cast a skill, light attack, heavy attack, use an ultimate, or whatever - your character visually just stands there and does nothing.

I reported this bug on March 15th here on the forums, although there were multiple ingame tickets sent as early as the first day of the patch. Here is the thread where I reported this bug.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629361/u37-pc-break-free-animation-is-horrendously-bugged-in-pvp-with-video-explanation/p1

On March 16, @ZOS_Kevin said the following;

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

@React Thanks for noting this. We just checked in with the team, they are aware of this bug and investigating a fix. Once we have more info on this, we'll update.

Following this, I confirmed the bug was still present after the incremental on 3/27, after the incremental on 4/11, I provided a video on 4/14 showing how the bug was still present and also in PVE, and again confirmed the bug was still present after the 4/24 incremental. This thread did not receive another comment following Kevin's 3/16 response.

On March 28th, I made a second thread regarding this bug and several other gamebreaking combat bugs that got introduced in the scribes of fate patch.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/630176/hey-console-players-when-the-patch-finishes-today-try-to-do-this/p1

@ZOS_GinaBruno Commented on this thread on 3/28, and again repeated Kevin's statement that they were aware of the bugs, and working on a fix.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey all, just wanted to let you know that while this will be an issue with today's console patch, we are aware of these issues and are working on getting some fixes tested. We'll keep you posted on when you can expect the fixes to go live.

The next day on 3/29, @ZOS_GinaBruno said the following;

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey folks, just to follow up here, both fixes have passed QA and we are planning to include them in the next PC and console incremental patches, both of which are scheduled for the week of April 10.

This comment indicates that the bug was to be fixed in the April 10th incremental, which actually ended up being the April 11th incremental due to an unrelated issue. The bug was not fixed in this incremental. Zenimax did not ever acknowledge this bug past this point.

When the PTS launched on April 17th, I logged in and immediately noticed the bug was fixed. I commented on the initial bug report thread and tagged both Kevin and Gina, asking about the fix and whether we would receive it in an upcoming live incremental, or if we would have to wait until Necrom in June to receive the fix. Neither of them ever responded. There have been 3 Incremental patches now on the live server since the PTS launched on April 17th, and the bug has not been fixed.

Here is a video from today, 5/11, showing side by side how CC break works on the live server and how it works on the PTS. I included my controller overlay on screen so you can see the inputs being pressed. Please note, this issue is not related to controller and is present on mouse and keyboard as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0HuwrngVfE
This indicates that Zenimax has resolved the issue, but doesn't deem it important enough to push the fix live. They're allowing a core combat function to remain completely broken. This comes after last patch where block was broken for nearly 3 months. Earlier this year, we received an apology from @ZOS_RichLambert for the problems and we were promised that they would "do better".

ZOS_RichLambert wrote:

Now that things have settled down a bit from Firesong’s PC/Mac launch, we wanted to thank everyone for your patience. It was a rougher than normal launch – especially on the stability side. Without sugar coating things, we dropped the ball – no excuses, we will do better in the future.

So, when are you going to start doing better? When are you going to communicate about core combat mechanics being broken in a timely fashion? When are you going to treat your customer base like they matter, and like ESO is a product you actually care about? When can we expect break free to work properly?

IMHO, if you're getting this worked up about this, maybe it's time to take a break and get some perspective. I've seen it in others from time to time and felt it in myself more than once. At the end of the day though it's just a game. Something not working properly and not being fixed when you think it should is trivial in the grand scheme of life.

Please take this in the spirit that it's intended, as encouragement rather than criticism. These forums can be a very negative place and I'm just as guilty as anyone in contributing to this, but I'm trying to do better.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not worked up. I come to these forums for conversations like this one because I enjoy having them. Hopefully they won't be necessary in the near future, and we can instead enjoy discussions about how the game works flawlessly, cyrodiil performs well, and zenimax communicates with us in a timely manner!

Credible_Joe

React wrote: »

Do you think their communication approach has been adequate thus far? They did after all have to make a post addressing the lack of it earlier this year, and promising to do better.

Do you think their failure to fix cyrodiil performance in 7 consecutive years, or their continual introduction of gamebreaking combat bugs every patch (that are reported on the PTS but allowed to go live regardless) is indicative of a development team that is doing an adequate job of developing the game?

I'm suggesting that threads like this - ones that provide valid criticism with clear cut examples of where the issues lie - are necessary.

Well, did you take a moment to glance at the initial bug report I linked? The one where I respectfully requested updates on this issue, before and after the supposed date of the fix past? Where I spent my own time creating detailed videos and explanations of the problem?

Examples like that are exactly why I personally deem posts like this necessary. Respect begets respect, and as a player who mainly participates in PVP and combat, I don't feel like my community has received that.

No, I don't think the studio has communicated well. But as a player, I don't believe shouting at them from the audience would be effective in soliciting a response. In fact, I think the exact opposite.

Yes, I think managing this monstrosity of a live service in a way that's playable at all is a feat worthy of praise. Does that mean I won't report bugs or air grievances I have about systems or gameplay? Absolutely not, but again, I won't shout it at them from the audience and demand engagement.

Also, implying that nothing has been done in regards to Cyrodiil performance over the last seven years is misleading in the extreme.

I did not take a moment to look at your bug report, and your behavior isn't transactional. Demanding respect in exchange for respect, or demanding a response in exchange for good behavior is entitlement. Assuming they're ignoring the community, or you specifically, is indicative of a very skewed perspective of the player / studio relationship.

And lastly, as a player that participates in PvP and combat, I feel like threads like these, with demands, belittlements and entitled outrage, do the exact opposite of what you say they do. Every single point in your post could have been stripped of your opinions and demands, and I guarantee, community managers and devs would have been much more inclined to respond.

But even if they hadn't, that doesn't entitle us to anything else. We have to trust that they see these reports, grievances, and accept any response they deliver. Even none at all, no matter how frustrating that is.

And by the way, voicing frustration is perfectly acceptable. About anything. But pairing it with demands and belittlements is unacceptable in every circumstance, and guarantees you won't be engaged with. That's all there is to it.

Qwazzy

This during the first PvP in two years is yet another slap in the face of the PvP community.

React

Credible_Joe wrote: »

React wrote: »

Do you think their communication approach has been adequate thus far? They did after all have to make a post addressing the lack of it earlier this year, and promising to do better.

Do you think their failure to fix cyrodiil performance in 7 consecutive years, or their continual introduction of gamebreaking combat bugs every patch (that are reported on the PTS but allowed to go live regardless) is indicative of a development team that is doing an adequate job of developing the game?

I'm suggesting that threads like this - ones that provide valid criticism with clear cut examples of where the issues lie - are necessary.

Well, did you take a moment to glance at the initial bug report I linked? The one where I respectfully requested updates on this issue, before and after the supposed date of the fix past? Where I spent my own time creating detailed videos and explanations of the problem?

Examples like that are exactly why I personally deem posts like this necessary. Respect begets respect, and as a player who mainly participates in PVP and combat, I don't feel like my community has received that.

No, I don't think the studio has communicated well. But as a player, I don't believe shouting at them from the audience would be effective in soliciting a response. In fact, I think the exact opposite.

Yes, I think managing this monstrosity of a live service in a way that's playable at all is a feat worthy of praise. Does that mean I won't report bugs or air grievances I have about systems or gameplay? Absolutely not, but again, I won't shout it at them from the audience and demand engagement.

Also, implying that nothing has been done in regards to Cyrodiil performance over the last seven years is misleading in the extreme.

I did not take a moment to look at your bug report, and your behavior isn't transactional. Demanding respect in exchange for respect, or demanding a response in exchange for good behavior is entitlement. Assuming they're ignoring the community, or you specifically, is indicative of a very skewed perspective of the player / studio relationship.

And lastly, as a player that participates in PvP and combat, I feel like threads like these, with demands, belittlements and entitled outrage, do the exact opposite of what you say they do. Every single point in your post could have been stripped of your opinions and demands, and I guarantee, community managers and devs would have been much more inclined to respond.

But even if they hadn't, that doesn't entitle us to anything else. We have to trust that they see these reports, grievances, and accept any response they deliver. Even none at all, no matter how frustrating that is.

And by the way, voicing frustration is perfectly acceptable. About anything. But pairing it with demands and belittlements is unacceptable in every circumstance, and guarantees you won't be engaged with. That's all there is to it.

I'm unsure what you mean with your mention of cyrodiil performance. The performance has undeniably degraded every single patch since (morrowind?). The only instance we ever saw where it improved was when they physically replaced their server hardware - but they also reduced population caps simultaneously, and PC NA one year later is now performing the same that it had prior to the replacement, but with lower maximum population.

As far as writing these posts without being critical - I simply am not going to do that. It's been a month since they last commented on this issue when they explicitly told us it was resolved. They've had every opportunity to let us know what is going on regarding it, and they've simply chosen not to do that. It isn't like they did not see one of the dozen or more tags from myself or the other participants in the multiple threads about this issue.

If they're going to blatantly ignore critical issues and refuse to communicate with us - I'm going to further criticize that lack of communication. I'm sorry if this doesn't conform to your idea of how the playerbase should interact with the studio.

I suppose I'll leave it there - I forsee this thread being closed for "unnecessary back and forth" if we continue.

Credible_Joe

React wrote: »

I'm unsure what you mean with your mention of cyrodiil performance. The performance has undeniably degraded every single patch since (morrowind?). The only instance we ever saw where it improved was when they physically replaced their server hardware - but they also reduced population caps simultaneously, and PC NA one year later is now performing the same that it had prior to the replacement, but with lower maximum population.

As far as writing these posts without being critical - I simply am not going to do that. It's been a month since they last commented on this issue when they explicitly told us it was resolved. They've had every opportunity to let us know what is going on regarding it, and they've simply chosen not to do that. It isn't like they did not see one of the dozen or more tags from myself or the other participants in the multiple threads about this issue.

If they're going to blatantly ignore critical issues and refuse to communicate with us - I'm going to further criticize that lack of communication. I'm sorry if this doesn't conform to your idea of how the playerbase should interact with the studio.

I suppose I'll leave it there - I forsee this thread being closed for "unnecessary back and forth" if we continue.

Well, keep up your crusade, I guess. You can dress up entitlement as "criticism" as much as you want, but I guarantee you their policy won't change. Anything that happens after your call out threads is entirely coincidental and unrelated to your campaign. All it accomplishes is to discourage studio response and engagement entirely.

And by the way, if they had done nothing, Cyrodiil wouldn't just have performance issues. It wouldn't be playable at all. We all know fundamental problems need to be addressed, but suggesting that nothing has been done is ludicrous in the extreme. There's hell, and then there's the Cyrodiil optimization team, who get pushed back two steps every chapter launch after taking a step forward, and then accused of incompetence by back seat engineers.

React

Qwazzy wrote: »

This during the first PvP in two years is yet another slap in the face of the PvP community.

Yeah, it's super frustrating that our PVP event was postponed for several months, only to land in a window where a bug that is extremely impactful to PVP is present. One that was supposedly supposed to be fixed a month ago.

Wolfkeks

Yeah it's kinda frustrating that this bug is still here - especially with the pvp event live now.
Really hoping they'll address this considering there is a second pvp event coming after this one.

itsfatbass

This has been absolutely frustrating for months now! Not seeing any character animations for several seconds after a CC break has caused MANY deaths. I find myself having to bar swap to force the animations to work sooner. Thanks for making this post and BIG OL BUMPPPPPPPP

Lags

this is how they've always been, you know this. Its only wishful thinking to believe it ever changes. Sadly.

Destai

@React I feel your pain. I've been asking @ZOS_Kevin to update another issue for months. Like this issue, it was slated to be fixed and the expected patch fix didn't work. Can't get follow up on that. I also reached out to him on how to properly report gold-sellers on PS-NA, and no response on that either. Really feels like all we're getting these days are official links and "we're working on it" posts from ZOS. Oh, and moderation. I do not feel valued by ZOS here on the forums.

@Credible_Joe How should we encourage or engender studio responses? I think there's many of us who feel at a loss on that. There's a long history of many eloquent posts about how to improve communication, discussions on core issues, requests for Q&As, PTS feedback, the list goes on - with little to no engagement. That's not our fault; players are trying to help them. Their pattern of turtling up hasn't helped them, if anything the silent treatment just reinforces a lot of the negative sentiment people have towards them. Like react said, that sentiment doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a very clear cause and effect.

And take last year as an example. U35 was one of the lowest points in the game's history, and I don't really feel like I saw the kind of engagement needed to repair any of the frustration felt nearly across the board in all play styles. We didn't get the Q&A. We didn't get follow up to any of the questions on their substitute solution. And to top it off, @ZOS_GinaBruno called a meeting with Nefas and the other stream teamers asking what're the biggest pain points. How did they not already know? That tells me ZOS presence on the forums is VERY minimal. They don't communicate with the larger community. We're not the bad guys for wanting them to do so.

And think of how much @ZOS_Kevin was regarded as a hero early on because he responded. He's respected here and even on Reddit. Because he responds, people will come to this defense, and he's given the benefit of the doubt by a lot of folks. Now imagine if ZOS did that more regularly, across all CMs, and there'd be a lot more warmth on the forums.

TybaltKaine

I appreciate what you are doing here, but the reality is, unless and until the community votes with their wallets to not support the game, there is no incentive to change anything.

I wish we lived in a world where game development, which typically begins as a passion to bring awesome games to people, didn't devolve into a business transaction, but we don't.

Jaimeh

Credible_Joe wrote: »

Well, keep up your crusade, I guess. You can dress up entitlement as "criticism" as much as you want, but I guarantee you their policy won't change. Anything that happens after your call out threads is entirely coincidental and unrelated to your campaign. All it accomplishes is to discourage studio response and engagement entirely.

How's it entitlement to enquire about a bug that is really important to combat, and thus impacting players' experience? OP is just trying to understand why the devs said it was fixed in the incremental patch last month when it clearly wasn't, and why they haven't addressed the discrepancy. It's not a minor bug in, say, an older dlc content, it's core combat related. Also, I don't think threads like these discourage studio engagement, since players are documenting the bugs very thoroughly, thus making devs' job easier. In fact, when threads like these stop existing is when a game starts to perish.

UnabashedlyHonest

React wrote: »

Credible_Joe wrote: »

React wrote: »

Do you think their communication approach has been adequate thus far? They did after all have to make a post addressing the lack of it earlier this year, and promising to do better.

Do you think their failure to fix cyrodiil performance in 7 consecutive years, or their continual introduction of gamebreaking combat bugs every patch (that are reported on the PTS but allowed to go live regardless) is indicative of a development team that is doing an adequate job of developing the game?

I'm suggesting that threads like this - ones that provide valid criticism with clear cut examples of where the issues lie - are necessary.

Well, did you take a moment to glance at the initial bug report I linked? The one where I respectfully requested updates on this issue, before and after the supposed date of the fix past? Where I spent my own time creating detailed videos and explanations of the problem?

Examples like that are exactly why I personally deem posts like this necessary. Respect begets respect, and as a player who mainly participates in PVP and combat, I don't feel like my community has received that.

No, I don't think the studio has communicated well. But as a player, I don't believe shouting at them from the audience would be effective in soliciting a response. In fact, I think the exact opposite.

Yes, I think managing this monstrosity of a live service in a way that's playable at all is a feat worthy of praise. Does that mean I won't report bugs or air grievances I have about systems or gameplay? Absolutely not, but again, I won't shout it at them from the audience and demand engagement.

Also, implying that nothing has been done in regards to Cyrodiil performance over the last seven years is misleading in the extreme.

I did not take a moment to look at your bug report, and your behavior isn't transactional. Demanding respect in exchange for respect, or demanding a response in exchange for good behavior is entitlement. Assuming they're ignoring the community, or you specifically, is indicative of a very skewed perspective of the player / studio relationship.

And lastly, as a player that participates in PvP and combat, I feel like threads like these, with demands, belittlements and entitled outrage, do the exact opposite of what you say they do. Every single point in your post could have been stripped of your opinions and demands, and I guarantee, community managers and devs would have been much more inclined to respond.

But even if they hadn't, that doesn't entitle us to anything else. We have to trust that they see these reports, grievances, and accept any response they deliver. Even none at all, no matter how frustrating that is.

And by the way, voicing frustration is perfectly acceptable. About anything. But pairing it with demands and belittlements is unacceptable in every circumstance, and guarantees you won't be engaged with. That's all there is to it.

I'm unsure what you mean with your mention of cyrodiil performance. The performance has undeniably degraded every single patch since (morrowind?). The only instance we ever saw where it improved was when they physically replaced their server hardware - but they also reduced population caps simultaneously, and PC NA one year later is now performing the same that it had prior to the replacement, but with lower maximum population.

As far as writing these posts without being critical - I simply am not going to do that. It's been a month since they last commented on this issue when they explicitly told us it was resolved. They've had every opportunity to let us know what is going on regarding it, and they've simply chosen not to do that. It isn't like they did not see one of the dozen or more tags from myself or the other participants in the multiple threads about this issue.

If they're going to blatantly ignore critical issues and refuse to communicate with us - I'm going to further criticize that lack of communication. I'm sorry if this doesn't conform to your idea of how the playerbase should interact with the studio.

I suppose I'll leave it there - I forsee this thread being closed for "unnecessary back and forth" if we continue.

Please don't let the critics in this thread hold you back. You are respectfully pointing out long standing bugs that should have been addressed LONG BEFORE NOW. What else can we do as players other than keep bringing up these issues until they are dealt with? This is like the "can't gift crown crate bug", "block bug" and a few other bugs that people just need to keep talking about until they are fixed. As players we don't have any other recourse but to keep talking about the bugs in hope that, at some point, they will get fixed.