The Arcanist Changes are an Insulting Slap in the Face to Sorcerers.

acastanza_ESO

Sorcerers have always been saddled with a channeled spammable ability that is completely unusable in PVP because of its interruptability.
Arcanists had a massive damage skill that had (past tense) a similar drawback - massive damage at the risk of being interrupted.

Now, that same ability generates ANOTHER shield for Arcanists and the massive damage can't even be interrupted without first managing to take down their shield. And on top of that, Arcanists can stack another in-class shield - one that also heals them - on top of that to further protect that channel.

How is this fair?

Like Arcanists, Sorcerers were tied to channeled abilities that were quite strong but could be interrupted by enemies as their primary tradeoff. Now Arcanists have been given in-class counterplay to mitigate these interrupts. And, to add insult to injury, the counterplay comes from Shields. Shields are intended to be Sorcerers primary defensive ability with little in-class healing because of them. Now Arcanists get both a damage shield that heals them, AND protects their Fatecarver from being interrupted AND a heal directly on their spammable (instead of on a mediocre passive).

Sorcerers get an unusable Spammable that is basically the only way to proc the Blood Magic heal, with no ability to mitigate this, and a single source of a single target (self) shield that doesn't heal. How on earth do you consider this anything even remotely adjacent to class balance? Arcanists get a healing spammable that can't be interrupted, and their separate massive damage ability can now be shielded from interrupting it with multiple in-class stackable shields that also heal.

Not to mention that you're still going forward with the absolutely useless buffs to Dark Exchange, with buffs that already had near 100% uptime instead of giving the buffs that are ACTUALLY NEEDED like Major Breserk (what DKs got) or Major Breach (a major gap in the class kit).

Hello? ZOS? What on Nirn are you thinking?! Can we get someone, anyone to actually look at Sorcerer? I get that you want us to play the new class but this is insulting.

Edit: Turns out the shield is absolutely massive with minimal effort, and because it procs on the first tick of Fatecarver which has extremely low cost and can be made actually free with cost reduction glyphs, it is a free, massive damage shield, every GCD (if you block cancel the channel). Oh, and the reason it's such a big shield is because, you guessed it, it scales off max offensive stat. You know, that thing we've been begging for that ZOS has refused to give sorc for years? Yeah. That.

merpins

I mean sure, but Arcanist was underperforming in comparison to most classes anyway, Sorcerer included. And its DPS was basically useless in PVP. This makes it somewhat useable now, in pvp. Still not great, but at least you can be an arcanist in pvp. And its damage didn't even increase for that ability, so it's not like it's more powerful.

Yes. Sorcerer needs to be buffed. So does Templar. But what's happening to Arcanist has nothing to do with Sorc or Templar. I'd love for those classes to see buffs. They're my two favorite classes, pre-nerfs, and now I don't even play them anymore. But Arcanist is a new class and needs balancing, and I think this is a decent balancing solution. A heal over time could have worked too, but then it'd just be Templar's beam execute but as a spammable.

acastanza_ESO

merpins wrote: »

. But what's happening to Arcanist has nothing to do with Sorc or Templar.

Except in the case of Sorc vs Arcanist it does. It has to do with how ZOS balances Healing vs. Shields, and the tradeoffs of loading your damage into a channeled ability. ZOS has decided that Arcanist will get attention to these tradeoffs that favor their ability to actually use their class skills and survive, and Sorcerer does not.

EramTheLiar

They've decided Arcanist will get their attention *now* because arcanist is the new class coming out with this chapter.

acastanza_ESO

EramTheLiar wrote: »

They've decided Arcanist will get their attention *now* because arcanist is the new class coming out with this chapter.

Sorcerer has had these problems for YEARS with nothing done to address them and numerous excuses given for why it is that way and that it is intended behavior. Then the new class that they're trying to sell has similar problems and it gets immediately adjusted in the classes favor with coherent, reasonably well designed, solutions while the existing class with the same problems gets absolutely nothing. I know why they did it, but that doesn't make it okay.

Thecompton73

I get your point and agree giving Arcanist access to so much useful self healing and powerful shields at the same time contradicts the arguments they've made against giving Sorc a insta cast self heal that doesn't have to be double barred. But cast times are different than channels, just had to say that.

bachpain

But you have to buy the new expansion to play the Archanist.... LOL

acastanza_ESO

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Cast times are different than channels, just had to say that.

Crystal Frags, Dark Exchange, and Fatecarver are all channeled abilities, that can be interrupted and stunlocked.
Those are what we are talking about here, and are all that are relevant.

dinokstrunz

Thanks for the chuckle xD

Thecompton73

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Cast times are different than channels, just had to say that.

Crystal Frags, Dark Exchange, and Fatecarver are all channeled abilities, that can be interrupted and stunlocked.
Those are what we are talking about here, and are all that are relevant.

Crystal Fragments
ESO-Hub.com
Cast Time: 800
Target: Enemy
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700

Dark Exchange
ESO-Hub.com
Cast Time: 1000
Target: Self
Cost: 3240

Pragmatic Fatecarver
ESO-Hub.com
Target: Area
Skill description
Harness pure knowledge into a beam of energy that scars the world in front of you. Channel the beam for up to 4 seconds, dealing 878 Magic Damage every 0.3 seconds.


In essence I agree with you. But using the wrong terminology undermines your argument. Cast times and channels are different things.

acastanza_ESO

Thecompton73 wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Cast times are different than channels, just had to say that.

Crystal Frags, Dark Exchange, and Fatecarver are all channeled abilities, that can be interrupted and stunlocked.
Those are what we are talking about here, and are all that are relevant.

Crystal Fragments
ESO-Hub.com
Cast Time: 800
Target: Enemy
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700

Dark Exchange
ESO-Hub.com
Cast Time: 1000
Target: Self
Cost: 3240

Pragmatic Fatecarver
ESO-Hub.com
Target: Area
Skill description
Harness pure knowledge into a beam of energy that scars the world in front of you. Channel the beam for up to 4 seconds, dealing 878 Magic Damage every 0.3 seconds.


In essence I agree with you. But using the wrong terminology undermines your argument. Cast times and channels are different things.

They are interruptible, and result in the skill being locked if they are interrupted. The game's terminology is bad, but they ARE at least functionally the same.
There are cast time skills that are NOT channels and can't be interrupted and stunlocked, but the Sorcerer are.

OtarTheMad

While I do agree that other classes need some love, Sorc included, Arcanist needed the most attention right now because it has the most problems and it's new. Before this patch Arcanist, sorry to say, wasn't a huge selling point for Necrom... it just happened to be included. That is because Arcanist, overall, was meh. This at least helps it out a bit so that, if nothing else changes and I hope it does, it'll hit Live okay... probably around B tier.

I do get it though. Sorc has been my first love in this game and I will always love it, Necro will be my main for some time as well and both need attention. However, with that said... as a good business move you just can't simply have a new class introduced and it is underperforming, that's not good at all.

Lastly though, that other person is right Dark Exchange and Dark Deal are not channels. Soul Trap ult is a channel, Templar beam execute is a channel.

Tessitura

What are you talking about? Frags can proc instant casts and has been a strong part of their pvp kit since beta. It also doesn't make a very telegraphed -look at me and put down pressure right now- beam.

acastanza_ESO

Tessitura wrote: »

What are you talking about? Frags can proc instant casts and has been a strong part of their pvp kit since beta. It also doesn't make a very telegraphed -look at me and put down pressure right now- beam.

Frags is ONLY slotted for the instant cast proc. It is NOT used as a spammable in PVP. EVER. At least not by anyone competent. Sorc is relegated to a non-class spammable with the class "spammable" ONLY used for burst. Also the hand waving growing crystal telegraph is, in fact, quite noticeable to anyone that knows what they're looking for.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Lastly though, that other person is right Dark Exchange and Dark Deal are not channels. Soul Trap ult is a channel, Templar beam execute is a channel.

They can get interrupted and stunlocked. Call them what you want but they are the same. Deltia also refers to Dark Deal as a channel in his PVP guide. It might not be "technically" a channel, but it is functionally one and any difference is not meaningful.

Mr_Jord_Joe

Fatecarver makes it impossible for you to sprint, you are vulnerable due to the slowness during channel time, there is and always will be a desynchronization of the damage of the skill in relation to other players in PvP, the value of the shield will be low in relation to the disadvantages of using the skill, but it's basically the biggest channel time in the game, and one of the Arcanist's main sources of damage, he's still subject to silences, and stuns... if it's any consolation, the class will be nerfed quite a bit later.

derpy_mushroom

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Sorcerers get an unusable Spammable that is basically the only way to proc the Blood Magic heal, with no ability to mitigate this, and a single source of a single target (self) shield that doesn't heal. How on earth do you consider this anything even remotely adjacent to class balance? Arcanists get a healing spammable that can't be interrupted, and their separate massive damage ability can now be shielded from interrupting it with multiple in-class stackable shields that also heal.

Just play Arcanist in Necrom 4head.

Jokes aside, it's absurd, I've been playing Sorcerer since I started the damn game, and I want to keep playing Sorcerer in the future, and my preferred playstyle without pets has been beaten into the ground and buried, and this Arcanist buff just keeps on shovelling dirt into the hole.

At this point they might as well just delete Sorcerer and rename Arcanist to Sorcerer because it's taken so much of our damn identity, and surpassing us in playability

IAVITNI

Not that I entirely agree with the OP - since they're completely ignoring the rest of sorc and arcanist kits here, but the fact that sorc abilities are a cast time and not a channel is arguably in favour of the "buff sorc" plea that this thread is aiming for.

If interrupted, channeled abilities provide some marginal benefit whereas cast time abilities like Dark Deal provide net-zero benefit since the affect only occurs at the end of the cast.

Yes Dark Deal is powerful and has a fair risk vs reward ratio but the same can't be said for frags...so all the "use the correct terminology" comments are also off base here.

Sorc has a lot of flaws but buffing Frag or Dark Deal isn't the solution. Tbh, sorc might end up being one of the strongest classes next patch assuming [redacted] doesn't get nerfed lmao.

Assuming [redacted] gets "fixed", giving shields some base impen or reverting the crit changes to shields would go a long way.

Shields cap out around 13k and you sacrifice A LOT to get there whereas burst heals can crit for +15k without sacrificing as much.

A DK, which is supposed to be a tank class can literally 1 shot a sorcs shields and still hit the health pool with a crit.Not even going to mention the other "burst" class in the game lmao

tangent here, but tldr Dark Deal is fine. Frags as a spammable could be changed a bit to warrant the cast time but the class has more critical issues going on.

PhoenixGrey

100% agree with OP.

And yet there is also a problem with my buff list being too OP here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/626685/where-are-the-sorc-buffs/p1

Doesn’t look so OP in the face of arcanist or dk or nb does it ? Although I still feel arcanist will never be as good as nb.

Same people who had a problem with my buff list play 40k hp sorcs which is the entire irony here.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

How about the developer comment for the Psychic Lesion passive?

Developer Comment:
We recognized this passive has felt on the weaker side, so we added an increase to Status Effect Chance to keep with the feeling that the Arcanist has a greater knowledge of the elements than other classes.

Are they implying the class that uses no elemental magic knows more about elemental magic then the classes that do?

OtarTheMad

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

What are you talking about? Frags can proc instant casts and has been a strong part of their pvp kit since beta. It also doesn't make a very telegraphed -look at me and put down pressure right now- beam.

Frags is ONLY slotted for the instant cast proc. It is NOT used as a spammable in PVP. EVER. At least not by anyone competent. Sorc is relegated to a non-class spammable with the class "spammable" ONLY used for burst. Also the hand waving growing crystal telegraph is, in fact, quite noticeable to anyone that knows what they're looking for.

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Lastly though, that other person is right Dark Exchange and Dark Deal are not channels. Soul Trap ult is a channel, Templar beam execute is a channel.

They can get interrupted and stunlocked. Call them what you want but they are the same. Deltia also refers to Dark Deal as a channel in his PVP guide. It might not be "technically" a channel, but it is functionally one and any difference is not meaningful.

And maybe you are right but that does not change the fact that the Arcanist just needs more attention right now. I know that sucks, I'm with you... Necromancer, my main class, hasn't had any significant changes since BB was fixed and that was a long time ago now. Most of my bar as a PvP'er dps is from other skill lines... mages, psijic, fighters etc.

Even with all the changes Arcanist had in today's patch notes the damage is still meh, skills are highly situational, healing is still in question, and sustain is still an issue for a class with a recovery passive. On top of that, you have the whole Crux system which I am growing to not be a fan of at all because let's say you don't like the runes spammable... okay you lost your Crux generator... you have to find one so you can work the system. You also have to make sure you have a spender too just to get a stronger heal or more damage or whatever. The kicker? Even when you spend Crux and use the stronger version of an ability it's not even that much stronger compared to other things like it (NB bow proc, instant frags). It is looking like, for damage, you really need to lean into proc sets. As an example I tried a combo of non proc sets as an experiment just some stat boosters, when all was active I had about 6k spell damage... and it STILL left like I wasn't hitting hard enough.

I am not saying that the class needs to be S tier in every category but when it comes to a new class you at least want it near the top in all. Idk, right now it just seems the crux system is just a pain... like do you risk not having a generator and a spender on your bar so you can have abilities from other places that perform better?

Overall, Arcanist needs to be in a spot where the class abilities are good and viable, and using other abilities or proc sets is just simply a preference over needing to. Also, working the crux system is just simply an option, not a necessity.

Panderbander

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about the developer comment for the Psychic Lesion passive?

Developer Comment:
We recognized this passive has felt on the weaker side, so we added an increase to Status Effect Chance to keep with the feeling that the Arcanist has a greater knowledge of the elements than other classes.

Are they implying the class that uses no elemental magic knows more about elemental magic then the classes that do?

I mean, they gave Necromancer a DOT buff passive and then no proper DOTs lol

NuarBlack

Changing crystal frags would ruin sorc for me. It is such a key part of the identity proccing it. Keeps the rotation reactive.

Also spammables from non-class skill lines need a use. Problem is that they suck too. Why the mages guild skill line doesn't have a Mage spammable is ridiculous. A spammable there that specifically addressed sorc weaknesses would be a neat way to fix it. Fire rune already has a sweet animation and is mostly worthless. Change it to fireball or lightning bolt and have it proc major prophecy somehow. Bam! sorc still retains its identity with crystal frags and perhaps opens up some cool builds elsewhere too like a legit fire Mage for DK too

acastanza_ESO

Well, the shield from Fatecarver is better than Hardened Ward. By so much it isn't even funny.

robpr

I'd like to see some duels tho. The shield goes away when you stop or cancel beams but the fact it can be stacked with the healing one can be problematic.
But I wouldnt be surprised if you cast Chakram first then beam you could be still interrupted because ZoS brilliant coding xd

tsaescishoeshiner

Hi OP! Are sorcs losing in duels to arcanists? Is the Fatecarver damage shield too hard to take down in practice?

I only tried them on PTS at launch, and it didn't seem one-sided either way, but that was Day 1.

I've mostly heard that arcanists are weak in PvP, especially because Fatecarver had a lot of downsides before even factoring in aiming and interrupts.

Also, I really don't think you're meant to be hard casting crystal fragments in PvP. It's much better to use it only when it procs. So I'm not sure if that's an apt comparison.

Mr_Jord_Joe

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about the developer comment for the Psychic Lesion passive?

Developer Comment:
We recognized this passive has felt on the weaker side, so we added an increase to Status Effect Chance to keep with the feeling that the Arcanist has a greater knowledge of the elements than other classes.

Are they implying the class that uses no elemental magic knows more about elemental magic then the classes that do?

I think they took it for the logic that in ''Apocrypha'' there is hidden and forbidden knowledge, that other classes don't have, maybe the arcanist knows more about all the elements of magic than the other classes, and uses only the most efficient one, however I agree if this bothers a lot of people, maybe Zos should change the ''Psychic Lesion'' passive to something more linked to the arcanist's abilities themselves, making the passive equally useful, of course.

Nerhesi

This is really no different than the class with benefits to all dots having the weakest dots (Necromancer).

Everything is going to seem like it is out of place or hap-hazard change unless they do a full class overhaul that pretty much nerfs most of the classes overall, while highlighting a single particular identity aspect. Lot of the base game classes get a ton of overloaded abilities for free.. why is a skill giving you a dot component, a dd component and burning status effect? Why is a skill stunning, rooting and undodgeable and unblockable? Why is a skill giving you powerful dot, with a snare, that also applies a hard hitting status component EVERY TICK?!?

Class identity needs to be-redone from the ground up once they realise that the "play the way you want" was a failure to begin with. Of course this will never happen, because it is too risk to alienate the people still playing this game in favour of actually attracting and retaining a more permanent base.

The unfortunate conclusion is you will continue to have muddying of identities (or lack there of), with certain classes just being leagues above the rest because they do the other classes' identity, PLUS more (or just better).