How I solved Sorc Survivability and heal issues with one skill change

Galeriano

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ah that would be fun. i just use dark conversion though

Yeah in theory and on paper that sounds great. But an interruptable channeled 1sec 4500 heal 7000 Crit isn't where it's at. 12k polar Wind. 12k breath of life, full health coagulating blood lol, 12k healthy offering, 12k resistant flesh, and lastly 12k Twilight matriarch is where we're at. 7k 12k Crit heal in PvP more if you have more Crit healing. Arcanist has a skill that just slots on one bar and gives you the buff no matter what bar your on. Why can't Sorc have the same. Balance by definition means everything is on the same playing field. Why can't Sorc have a burst heal that can be slotted on one bar like every class in the game. Can someone give me some insight and valid reasons why this change shouldn't happen. Ill listen and discuss anything that's not a strawman argument.

By the same logic we can ask why can't everyone have streak.

And before someoone will say that everyone have streak with new mist form it's basically like saying that sorc have one bar burst heal like everyone else with a dark deal.

by that logic we should make dark deal into a 0.3 second cast time ability to match mist forms cast time compared to streak (tooltip doesn't show it, but streak has a built in 0.3 second cast time, it's why it has so many issues of the skill not firing or being delayed or desyncing the caster in PvP and lag).

Which to be fair, if they did it that way, I'd be happy with that, technically still allows for counter play, but is far harder to time the counter and will be far less punishing for the sorc that is simply trying to survive in PvP.

But considering they've added shields (that were already stronger with more utility and effects and helped allies than hardened ward) and gave them heals as well as shields that prevent being interrupted to the arcanist class, I think we can aim a little higher here for sorcerers.

No? There is no logical connection between these two. Streak does not have 0,3 sec of hidden cast time. It have built in animation time like every ability with instant cast. Ever started an animation of some meele instant cast ability on moving enemy and than suddenly it got interrupted by itself without doing any damage? That's basically the same thing. Ever had a situation when fighting in PvP and after firing an ability, in Your upper right corner You were getting constantly messages saying "target out of range", "could not use this ability", "item not ready yet" etc? That's basically the same thing. Instant cast abilities in general are not instant by the definition of doing what they meant to do instantly without any delay after clicking the button. This is why it's getting so hard to play in laggy enviroment. Sorc isn't the only class experiencing this, the difference is just on sorc it's more frustrating because it affects his core ability that servers multiple purposes so it's more noticable because it will fail in more different scenarios.

Balancing the game around fact that lag may occur doesn't sound like the greatest idea. As for dark deal being faster to cast it also doesn't sound like the greatest idea. This ability is basically a counter to streak spam fatigue making it faster to cast would just make already strong streaking even stronger and would also make sorc offensive window wider possibly too wide. Sorc is a class that when allowed can create extreme damage pressure on enemy and because of that devs are purposely keeping his offensive window shorter than for other classes. This is also why there is such a big difference between really good sorc players and average sorc players.

Arcanist shields is really not that great argument unless You want to have 4-5 sec chanell time ability in sorc kit. It can be done, after all dark deal was a 4 sec chanell long time ago. Maybe You want this back but now with a shield? Other arcanist shields are really not that groundbreaking PvP wise. I don't know why but every time any class gets something similar to what sorc has than sorc players start to loose their minds instantly calling it better and claiming that sorc will be dead. It was the same with mist form. Based on some comments before change to it went live it should by now be used by every player in PvP including sorcs. The same thing happened with arcanist teleport, people were claiming it will kill sorc before ability even hit PTS. Suprise, suprise both thing didn;t happen. Now I see the new reason to complain are arcanist shields which many arcanist players testing PvP arcanist on PTS are not even using.

Even ignoring the built in animation cast time on streak, by your logic dark deal/conversion should have a 0.6s cast time at most since that's the cast time of mist form. Either way, the current 1 second cast time on dark deal/conversion is way too high considering everything in the game.

every class can slot their instant cast much higher tooltip burst heal and mist form and have a reliable heal on-top of a ball of lightning that when compared to a sorc that has instant cast streak + a heal that takes twice as long to cast as mist form while also being easily interruptible (see completely denied) and having half the heal value of other burst heals.

Nobody wants dark deal/conversion to heal for the same amount as coag or offering, but at least significantly reduce the cast time while keeping its current low heal amount so sorc has some semblance of reliable healing to account for the significantly increased mobility that other classes now have access to via the new mist form as well as all the access to expedition and movement speed buffs that are available to all classes now (which had a much bigger impact than people realise in closing the gap between magsorcs and other classes mobility).

Saying dark deal is sustain and the cast time is to prevent working around the ramping cost of streak would be an acceptable argument against changing dark deal/conversion if sustain in general wasn't so blatantly free and available now. Especially considering mist form has a cheaper cost than streak due to the vamp passives making its ramping cost much less punishing on sustain and this is combined with every other classes heal being significantly stronger than dark deal (meaning its cast much less frequently) and infinitely more reliable/flexible than matriarch.

As for shields, arcanist is the first class outside of sorcs to see shields be the main focus of their defense. Shields on their own are significantly weaker in the current meta than healing, especially accounting for block mitigation that has gotten significantly stronger and cheaper over the past few years. The reason arcanist shields (especially the latest changes) are so contentious is because zos has gone out of their way to fix the shield mechanics inherent weaknesses for the arcanist despite sorcerers practically begging for something half as good as what arcanist got for years now.

Mist form does not have a cast time and I don't know how did You even come up with the idea to start balancing dark deal based on mist form. These are two completly different abilities. What's next? We will start balancing cloak around crystal frag? Saying "1 second cast time on dark deal/conversion is way too high considering everything in the game" really says nothing at all. By the same logic someone can say that considering everything in the game current iteration of streak is way too effective.

Dark deal is not just a heal. It's basically a countermeasure to streak ramping cost. This ability is a massive sustain boost so massive that some version of sorc like proc based stamsorc can completly ignore sustain departament in their gear and just go with 4x offensive proc sets with 3x infused wep dmg enchantments and still sustain just fine. If dark deal would have to become a reliable strong burst heal it would have to loose sustain component or have it drastically reduced. Dark conversion already have 10k tooltip which is close to what other classes are actually getting on their tooltips but it also restores high amounts of magicka back. How many classes actively and effectively utisilisg mist form for mobility have You actually seen? That ability is inferior to streak in every way and people almost never use it as chasing tool but more of an escaping tool and never to the extent that sorcs are using streak. Sorc was and still is the most mobile class in the game. Have You ever thougt that maybe ZoS has given so many mobility tools to other classes because of how strong sorc mobility is in the first place?

Sorc still have better and easier sustain than many other classes. And becuse of that he just needs one more strong thing to create broken setup. We have prove of it even right now with proc based stamsorc that have found an option to deal massive amounts of DoT pressure, something that sorc normally is lacking. In the past we had master destro which allowed sorc to have decent ranged spammable with a stun, rune cage change that allowed sorc to create decent burst combo with a stun, pirate skeleton monster set which allowed to give shields 30% dmg reduction from major protection ingoring minor defile drawback because health was secure under the shield etc. Literally every time when sorc gets something strong that covers one of his downsides it's possible to create completly broken setup. EVERY TIME. After mara's balm nerf proc based stamsorc will possibly be the best setup in BGs. Right now number of people playing this setup is raising with every day. Now imagine what would happen if they would get even stronger and more reliable healing.

Shields are really not main focus of arcanist defense in PvP. Group shield have weak value and health based shield, well ask templars how good that is. Sorc shielding is still stronger than arcanist shieldimg. It's literally same story as with mist. Every sorc was claiming it will be better than streak and we know now it isn't true. Same will happen with arcanist shields.

I will be switching my main from sorc to arcanist for sure as it’s simply better period.

Arcanist is better than sorc
Dk is better than sorc
Warden is better than sorc

Nb is better than everything else in the game and in every aspect of pvp.

That’s literally what matters

Arcanist as it is right now is super mediocre in PvP. It's good for groups especially large ones but for small scale and solo it's very mediocre. Look at how little hype this class generates when compared to previous ones and how little arcanist is talked about. When warden and necro were coming out there were many forum threads calling some of their abilities OP and rightfully claiming these classes will be very strong in PvP. Do You see something like that happening for arcanist? Barely anyone is talking about this class.

Galeriano

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ah that would be fun. i just use dark conversion though

Yeah in theory and on paper that sounds great. But an interruptable channeled 1sec 4500 heal 7000 Crit isn't where it's at. 12k polar Wind. 12k breath of life, full health coagulating blood lol, 12k healthy offering, 12k resistant flesh, and lastly 12k Twilight matriarch is where we're at. 7k 12k Crit heal in PvP more if you have more Crit healing. Arcanist has a skill that just slots on one bar and gives you the buff no matter what bar your on. Why can't Sorc have the same. Balance by definition means everything is on the same playing field. Why can't Sorc have a burst heal that can be slotted on one bar like every class in the game. Can someone give me some insight and valid reasons why this change shouldn't happen. Ill listen and discuss anything that's not a strawman argument.

By the same logic we can ask why can't everyone have streak.

And before someoone will say that everyone have streak with new mist form it's basically like saying that sorc have one bar burst heal like everyone else with a dark deal.

Wrong again. What matters is which class has more mobility and which class has more healing

Sorc neither has best mobility nor the best healing.

Claiming that sorc doesn't have the best mobility is a bit silly. You are really making it hard to take You seriously at this point.

PhoenixGrey

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ah that would be fun. i just use dark conversion though

Yeah in theory and on paper that sounds great. But an interruptable channeled 1sec 4500 heal 7000 Crit isn't where it's at. 12k polar Wind. 12k breath of life, full health coagulating blood lol, 12k healthy offering, 12k resistant flesh, and lastly 12k Twilight matriarch is where we're at. 7k 12k Crit heal in PvP more if you have more Crit healing. Arcanist has a skill that just slots on one bar and gives you the buff no matter what bar your on. Why can't Sorc have the same. Balance by definition means everything is on the same playing field. Why can't Sorc have a burst heal that can be slotted on one bar like every class in the game. Can someone give me some insight and valid reasons why this change shouldn't happen. Ill listen and discuss anything that's not a strawman argument.

By the same logic we can ask why can't everyone have streak.

And before someoone will say that everyone have streak with new mist form it's basically like saying that sorc have one bar burst heal like everyone else with a dark deal.

Everyone has streak with the new mist form bro. Your comparison is humorous but not true dark deal is not instant and interruptable with a mediocre heal. I've have people outrun and kite me on my warden when they use vampire streak. What we have here is a strawman argument. "Sorcs can't heal but they can run away" is not a counter or rebuttal to them having some sort survivability kit. Maybe for certain magsorc builds but not the class as a whole. I understand the consequences of buffing Stam Sorc could ultimately make Mag Sorc unkillable. That's not the purpose of this topic. Just want a balanced kit on Sorc whether caster or melee or hybrid without being forced into one specific playstyle like for example shield stacking. In and out etc.....

And mist form is not instant cast point blank teleport with the strongest stun in the game attached to it. Other classes also cannot use teleporting as effectrively as soprc due to not having massive resource restore from dark deal. Strawman argument is Your argument about warden. By the same logic we can argue that there are people who are not nightblades vanishing from the fight with a vampire invisibility passive.

Yes fact that sorcs have the best mobility and control in the game tied to one ability is the exact reason why developer refuses to grant them burst heal comparable to other classes. They have "some sort survivability kit" just not the same as other classes. What You want is giving them survivability of ther classes with streak on top of it. You already have multiple playstyles on sorc.

Streak is not the best stun in the game

Imagine a ranged class gap closing on a ton of melee classes. Doesn’t even make sense to me design wise. There is no reason why the sorc should not die right after.

Besides streak has an animation time attached to it

Galeriano

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ah that would be fun. i just use dark conversion though

Yeah in theory and on paper that sounds great. But an interruptable channeled 1sec 4500 heal 7000 Crit isn't where it's at. 12k polar Wind. 12k breath of life, full health coagulating blood lol, 12k healthy offering, 12k resistant flesh, and lastly 12k Twilight matriarch is where we're at. 7k 12k Crit heal in PvP more if you have more Crit healing. Arcanist has a skill that just slots on one bar and gives you the buff no matter what bar your on. Why can't Sorc have the same. Balance by definition means everything is on the same playing field. Why can't Sorc have a burst heal that can be slotted on one bar like every class in the game. Can someone give me some insight and valid reasons why this change shouldn't happen. Ill listen and discuss anything that's not a strawman argument.

By the same logic we can ask why can't everyone have streak.

And before someoone will say that everyone have streak with new mist form it's basically like saying that sorc have one bar burst heal like everyone else with a dark deal.

Everyone has streak with the new mist form bro. Your comparison is humorous but not true dark deal is not instant and interruptable with a mediocre heal. I've have people outrun and kite me on my warden when they use vampire streak. What we have here is a strawman argument. "Sorcs can't heal but they can run away" is not a counter or rebuttal to them having some sort survivability kit. Maybe for certain magsorc builds but not the class as a whole. I understand the consequences of buffing Stam Sorc could ultimately make Mag Sorc unkillable. That's not the purpose of this topic. Just want a balanced kit on Sorc whether caster or melee or hybrid without being forced into one specific playstyle like for example shield stacking. In and out etc.....

And mist form is not instant cast point blank teleport with the strongest stun in the game attached to it. Other classes also cannot use teleporting as effectrively as soprc due to not having massive resource restore from dark deal. Strawman argument is Your argument about warden. By the same logic we can argue that there are people who are not nightblades vanishing from the fight with a vampire invisibility passive.

Yes fact that sorcs have the best mobility and control in the game tied to one ability is the exact reason why developer refuses to grant them burst heal comparable to other classes. They have "some sort survivability kit" just not the same as other classes. What You want is giving them survivability of ther classes with streak on top of it. You already have multiple playstyles on sorc.

Streak is not the best stun in the game

Imagine a ranged class gap closing on a ton of melee classes. Doesn’t even make sense to me design wise. There is no reason why the sorc should not die right after.

Besides streak has an animation time attached to it

Yes streak is the best stun in the game. It's an large AoE undodgable unblockable stun. Nothing comes close. Fact that skill doesn't fit Your personal desires doesn't mean it's not the strongest stun in the game.

Somehow stamsorcs are doing more than fine as meele characters.

Turtle_Bot

Galeriano wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ah that would be fun. i just use dark conversion though

Yeah in theory and on paper that sounds great. But an interruptable channeled 1sec 4500 heal 7000 Crit isn't where it's at. 12k polar Wind. 12k breath of life, full health coagulating blood lol, 12k healthy offering, 12k resistant flesh, and lastly 12k Twilight matriarch is where we're at. 7k 12k Crit heal in PvP more if you have more Crit healing. Arcanist has a skill that just slots on one bar and gives you the buff no matter what bar your on. Why can't Sorc have the same. Balance by definition means everything is on the same playing field. Why can't Sorc have a burst heal that can be slotted on one bar like every class in the game. Can someone give me some insight and valid reasons why this change shouldn't happen. Ill listen and discuss anything that's not a strawman argument.

By the same logic we can ask why can't everyone have streak.

And before someoone will say that everyone have streak with new mist form it's basically like saying that sorc have one bar burst heal like everyone else with a dark deal.

by that logic we should make dark deal into a 0.3 second cast time ability to match mist forms cast time compared to streak (tooltip doesn't show it, but streak has a built in 0.3 second cast time, it's why it has so many issues of the skill not firing or being delayed or desyncing the caster in PvP and lag).

Which to be fair, if they did it that way, I'd be happy with that, technically still allows for counter play, but is far harder to time the counter and will be far less punishing for the sorc that is simply trying to survive in PvP.

But considering they've added shields (that were already stronger with more utility and effects and helped allies than hardened ward) and gave them heals as well as shields that prevent being interrupted to the arcanist class, I think we can aim a little higher here for sorcerers.

No? There is no logical connection between these two. Streak does not have 0,3 sec of hidden cast time. It have built in animation time like every ability with instant cast. Ever started an animation of some meele instant cast ability on moving enemy and than suddenly it got interrupted by itself without doing any damage? That's basically the same thing. Ever had a situation when fighting in PvP and after firing an ability, in Your upper right corner You were getting constantly messages saying "target out of range", "could not use this ability", "item not ready yet" etc? That's basically the same thing. Instant cast abilities in general are not instant by the definition of doing what they meant to do instantly without any delay after clicking the button. This is why it's getting so hard to play in laggy enviroment. Sorc isn't the only class experiencing this, the difference is just on sorc it's more frustrating because it affects his core ability that servers multiple purposes so it's more noticable because it will fail in more different scenarios.

Balancing the game around fact that lag may occur doesn't sound like the greatest idea. As for dark deal being faster to cast it also doesn't sound like the greatest idea. This ability is basically a counter to streak spam fatigue making it faster to cast would just make already strong streaking even stronger and would also make sorc offensive window wider possibly too wide. Sorc is a class that when allowed can create extreme damage pressure on enemy and because of that devs are purposely keeping his offensive window shorter than for other classes. This is also why there is such a big difference between really good sorc players and average sorc players.

Arcanist shields is really not that great argument unless You want to have 4-5 sec chanell time ability in sorc kit. It can be done, after all dark deal was a 4 sec chanell long time ago. Maybe You want this back but now with a shield? Other arcanist shields are really not that groundbreaking PvP wise. I don't know why but every time any class gets something similar to what sorc has than sorc players start to loose their minds instantly calling it better and claiming that sorc will be dead. It was the same with mist form. Based on some comments before change to it went live it should by now be used by every player in PvP including sorcs. The same thing happened with arcanist teleport, people were claiming it will kill sorc before ability even hit PTS. Suprise, suprise both thing didn;t happen. Now I see the new reason to complain are arcanist shields which many arcanist players testing PvP arcanist on PTS are not even using.

Even ignoring the built in animation cast time on streak, by your logic dark deal/conversion should have a 0.6s cast time at most since that's the cast time of mist form. Either way, the current 1 second cast time on dark deal/conversion is way too high considering everything in the game.

every class can slot their instant cast much higher tooltip burst heal and mist form and have a reliable heal on-top of a ball of lightning that when compared to a sorc that has instant cast streak + a heal that takes twice as long to cast as mist form while also being easily interruptible (see completely denied) and having half the heal value of other burst heals.

Nobody wants dark deal/conversion to heal for the same amount as coag or offering, but at least significantly reduce the cast time while keeping its current low heal amount so sorc has some semblance of reliable healing to account for the significantly increased mobility that other classes now have access to via the new mist form as well as all the access to expedition and movement speed buffs that are available to all classes now (which had a much bigger impact than people realise in closing the gap between magsorcs and other classes mobility).

Saying dark deal is sustain and the cast time is to prevent working around the ramping cost of streak would be an acceptable argument against changing dark deal/conversion if sustain in general wasn't so blatantly free and available now. Especially considering mist form has a cheaper cost than streak due to the vamp passives making its ramping cost much less punishing on sustain and this is combined with every other classes heal being significantly stronger than dark deal (meaning its cast much less frequently) and infinitely more reliable/flexible than matriarch.

As for shields, arcanist is the first class outside of sorcs to see shields be the main focus of their defense. Shields on their own are significantly weaker in the current meta than healing, especially accounting for block mitigation that has gotten significantly stronger and cheaper over the past few years. The reason arcanist shields (especially the latest changes) are so contentious is because zos has gone out of their way to fix the shield mechanics inherent weaknesses for the arcanist despite sorcerers practically begging for something half as good as what arcanist got for years now.

Mist form does not have a cast time and I don't know how did You even come up with the idea to start balancing dark deal based on mist form. These are two completly different abilities. What's next? We will start balancing cloak around crystal frag? Saying "1 second cast time on dark deal/conversion is way too high considering everything in the game" really says nothing at all. By the same logic someone can say that considering everything in the game current iteration of streak is way too effective.

Dark deal is not just a heal. It's basically a countermeasure to streak ramping cost. This ability is a massive sustain boost so massive that some version of sorc like proc based stamsorc can completly ignore sustain departament in their gear and just go with 4x offensive proc sets with 3x infused wep dmg enchantments and still sustain just fine. If dark deal would have to become a reliable strong burst heal it would have to loose sustain component or have it drastically reduced. Dark conversion already have 10k tooltip which is close to what other classes are actually getting on their tooltips but it also restores high amounts of magicka back. How many classes actively and effectively utisilisg mist form for mobility have You actually seen? That ability is inferior to streak in every way and people almost never use it as chasing tool but more of an escaping tool and never to the extent that sorcs are using streak. Sorc was and still is the most mobile class in the game. Have You ever thougt that maybe ZoS has given so many mobility tools to other classes because of how strong sorc mobility is in the first place?

Sorc still have better and easier sustain than many other classes. And becuse of that he just needs one more strong thing to create broken setup. We have prove of it even right now with proc based stamsorc that have found an option to deal massive amounts of DoT pressure, something that sorc normally is lacking. In the past we had master destro which allowed sorc to have decent ranged spammable with a stun, rune cage change that allowed sorc to create decent burst combo with a stun, pirate skeleton monster set which allowed to give shields 30% dmg reduction from major protection ingoring minor defile drawback because health was secure under the shield etc. Literally every time when sorc gets something strong that covers one of his downsides it's possible to create completly broken setup. EVERY TIME. After mara's balm nerf proc based stamsorc will possibly be the best setup in BGs. Right now number of people playing this setup is raising with every day. Now imagine what would happen if they would get even stronger and more reliable healing.

Shields are really not main focus of arcanist defense in PvP. Group shield have weak value and health based shield, well ask templars how good that is. Sorc shielding is still stronger than arcanist shieldimg. It's literally same story as with mist. Every sorc was claiming it will be better than streak and we know now it isn't true. Same will happen with arcanist shields.

So your entire argument for all sorcs not getting any sort of semi reliable healing is simply because "stamsorc too OP" because stamsorcs are able to abuse the latest proc sets (the same thing every other class can do if people actually put effort and thought into building and playing their class properly).

I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously, as a sorc main you would rather the entire class be kept down just because 1 specific spec performs well above all the other specs. That does not sound like a sorc main at all. How about addressing that specific spec while buffing other specs for the class to give those a chance to play, that way there's more diversity in the builds for the class because as it stands it already is just build stamsorc or play another class.

Also, if you had bothered to do some actual research on this instead of straight up ignoring others ideas because you think 1 spec of stamsorc is "OP", you would realise many of us had proposed different ways of giving the class an instant/ better heal while keeping downsides to it or nerfing the class in other ways to compensate.

Including:
reduced (but not removed) cast time
instant cast time but the heal and sustain is delayed (and sustain reduced)
heal increased, everything else stays as is to account for the punishing interrupt mechanic
Instant cast + bigger heal but streak has stun replaced with snare
and many other options.

Dark conversion does not tooltip for anywhere near other classes burst heals since it caps out (with healing CP buffs) at 13k tooltip while other classes burst heals consistently tooltip for 15/20k+ unless on a bad (or completely unbuffed, not even sorcery/brutality) build. So where ever you got that information from is just flat out wrong.

I am comparing streak + dark deal to mist form + other classes burst heals because they are an appropriate comparison, (a gap closer/creator + a heal to a gap closer/creator + a heal) If we include sustain, DK gets it passively, warden gets it via free to cast netch, nb has a bunch of passives as well as siphoning attacks which give it passively as they build up their bow, plar gets it from their rune which is so cheap it might as well be free. The only class that struggles with it is necro, but they are in a bad spot overall currently. Therefore it is a very apt comparison, especially accounting for the movement speed increases every class got access to over the past few years and the significantly reduced base cost of mist form and increased base cost of streak thanks to the vampire passives.

Also while considering that "sorcs mobility warranted the increase in mobility for other classes" did you stop and consider that maybe if those other classes got similar mobility to sorc that maybe something should be looked at for sorcs healing and defenses to account for this?

PhoenixGrey

Galeriano wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ah that would be fun. i just use dark conversion though

Yeah in theory and on paper that sounds great. But an interruptable channeled 1sec 4500 heal 7000 Crit isn't where it's at. 12k polar Wind. 12k breath of life, full health coagulating blood lol, 12k healthy offering, 12k resistant flesh, and lastly 12k Twilight matriarch is where we're at. 7k 12k Crit heal in PvP more if you have more Crit healing. Arcanist has a skill that just slots on one bar and gives you the buff no matter what bar your on. Why can't Sorc have the same. Balance by definition means everything is on the same playing field. Why can't Sorc have a burst heal that can be slotted on one bar like every class in the game. Can someone give me some insight and valid reasons why this change shouldn't happen. Ill listen and discuss anything that's not a strawman argument.

By the same logic we can ask why can't everyone have streak.

And before someoone will say that everyone have streak with new mist form it's basically like saying that sorc have one bar burst heal like everyone else with a dark deal.

Everyone has streak with the new mist form bro. Your comparison is humorous but not true dark deal is not instant and interruptable with a mediocre heal. I've have people outrun and kite me on my warden when they use vampire streak. What we have here is a strawman argument. "Sorcs can't heal but they can run away" is not a counter or rebuttal to them having some sort survivability kit. Maybe for certain magsorc builds but not the class as a whole. I understand the consequences of buffing Stam Sorc could ultimately make Mag Sorc unkillable. That's not the purpose of this topic. Just want a balanced kit on Sorc whether caster or melee or hybrid without being forced into one specific playstyle like for example shield stacking. In and out etc.....

And mist form is not instant cast point blank teleport with the strongest stun in the game attached to it. Other classes also cannot use teleporting as effectrively as soprc due to not having massive resource restore from dark deal. Strawman argument is Your argument about warden. By the same logic we can argue that there are people who are not nightblades vanishing from the fight with a vampire invisibility passive.

Yes fact that sorcs have the best mobility and control in the game tied to one ability is the exact reason why developer refuses to grant them burst heal comparable to other classes. They have "some sort survivability kit" just not the same as other classes. What You want is giving them survivability of ther classes with streak on top of it. You already have multiple playstyles on sorc.

Streak is not the best stun in the game

Imagine a ranged class gap closing on a ton of melee classes. Doesn’t even make sense to me design wise. There is no reason why the sorc should not die right after.

Besides streak has an animation time attached to it

Yes streak is the best stun in the game. It's an large AoE undodgable unblockable stun. Nothing comes close. Fact that skill doesn't fit Your personal desires doesn't mean it's not the strongest stun in the game.

Somehow stamsorcs are doing more than fine as meele characters.

Crit surge, masters dual wield and Mara’s balm.

Carried by sets and one outdated skill which was non intentional.

PhoenixGrey

Galeriano wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

ah that would be fun. i just use dark conversion though

Yeah in theory and on paper that sounds great. But an interruptable channeled 1sec 4500 heal 7000 Crit isn't where it's at. 12k polar Wind. 12k breath of life, full health coagulating blood lol, 12k healthy offering, 12k resistant flesh, and lastly 12k Twilight matriarch is where we're at. 7k 12k Crit heal in PvP more if you have more Crit healing. Arcanist has a skill that just slots on one bar and gives you the buff no matter what bar your on. Why can't Sorc have the same. Balance by definition means everything is on the same playing field. Why can't Sorc have a burst heal that can be slotted on one bar like every class in the game. Can someone give me some insight and valid reasons why this change shouldn't happen. Ill listen and discuss anything that's not a strawman argument.

By the same logic we can ask why can't everyone have streak.

And before someoone will say that everyone have streak with new mist form it's basically like saying that sorc have one bar burst heal like everyone else with a dark deal.

by that logic we should make dark deal into a 0.3 second cast time ability to match mist forms cast time compared to streak (tooltip doesn't show it, but streak has a built in 0.3 second cast time, it's why it has so many issues of the skill not firing or being delayed or desyncing the caster in PvP and lag).

Which to be fair, if they did it that way, I'd be happy with that, technically still allows for counter play, but is far harder to time the counter and will be far less punishing for the sorc that is simply trying to survive in PvP.

But considering they've added shields (that were already stronger with more utility and effects and helped allies than hardened ward) and gave them heals as well as shields that prevent being interrupted to the arcanist class, I think we can aim a little higher here for sorcerers.

No? There is no logical connection between these two. Streak does not have 0,3 sec of hidden cast time. It have built in animation time like every ability with instant cast. Ever started an animation of some meele instant cast ability on moving enemy and than suddenly it got interrupted by itself without doing any damage? That's basically the same thing. Ever had a situation when fighting in PvP and after firing an ability, in Your upper right corner You were getting constantly messages saying "target out of range", "could not use this ability", "item not ready yet" etc? That's basically the same thing. Instant cast abilities in general are not instant by the definition of doing what they meant to do instantly without any delay after clicking the button. This is why it's getting so hard to play in laggy enviroment. Sorc isn't the only class experiencing this, the difference is just on sorc it's more frustrating because it affects his core ability that servers multiple purposes so it's more noticable because it will fail in more different scenarios.

Balancing the game around fact that lag may occur doesn't sound like the greatest idea. As for dark deal being faster to cast it also doesn't sound like the greatest idea. This ability is basically a counter to streak spam fatigue making it faster to cast would just make already strong streaking even stronger and would also make sorc offensive window wider possibly too wide. Sorc is a class that when allowed can create extreme damage pressure on enemy and because of that devs are purposely keeping his offensive window shorter than for other classes. This is also why there is such a big difference between really good sorc players and average sorc players.

Arcanist shields is really not that great argument unless You want to have 4-5 sec chanell time ability in sorc kit. It can be done, after all dark deal was a 4 sec chanell long time ago. Maybe You want this back but now with a shield? Other arcanist shields are really not that groundbreaking PvP wise. I don't know why but every time any class gets something similar to what sorc has than sorc players start to loose their minds instantly calling it better and claiming that sorc will be dead. It was the same with mist form. Based on some comments before change to it went live it should by now be used by every player in PvP including sorcs. The same thing happened with arcanist teleport, people were claiming it will kill sorc before ability even hit PTS. Suprise, suprise both thing didn;t happen. Now I see the new reason to complain are arcanist shields which many arcanist players testing PvP arcanist on PTS are not even using.

Even ignoring the built in animation cast time on streak, by your logic dark deal/conversion should have a 0.6s cast time at most since that's the cast time of mist form. Either way, the current 1 second cast time on dark deal/conversion is way too high considering everything in the game.

every class can slot their instant cast much higher tooltip burst heal and mist form and have a reliable heal on-top of a ball of lightning that when compared to a sorc that has instant cast streak + a heal that takes twice as long to cast as mist form while also being easily interruptible (see completely denied) and having half the heal value of other burst heals.

Nobody wants dark deal/conversion to heal for the same amount as coag or offering, but at least significantly reduce the cast time while keeping its current low heal amount so sorc has some semblance of reliable healing to account for the significantly increased mobility that other classes now have access to via the new mist form as well as all the access to expedition and movement speed buffs that are available to all classes now (which had a much bigger impact than people realise in closing the gap between magsorcs and other classes mobility).

Saying dark deal is sustain and the cast time is to prevent working around the ramping cost of streak would be an acceptable argument against changing dark deal/conversion if sustain in general wasn't so blatantly free and available now. Especially considering mist form has a cheaper cost than streak due to the vamp passives making its ramping cost much less punishing on sustain and this is combined with every other classes heal being significantly stronger than dark deal (meaning its cast much less frequently) and infinitely more reliable/flexible than matriarch.

As for shields, arcanist is the first class outside of sorcs to see shields be the main focus of their defense. Shields on their own are significantly weaker in the current meta than healing, especially accounting for block mitigation that has gotten significantly stronger and cheaper over the past few years. The reason arcanist shields (especially the latest changes) are so contentious is because zos has gone out of their way to fix the shield mechanics inherent weaknesses for the arcanist despite sorcerers practically begging for something half as good as what arcanist got for years now.

Mist form does not have a cast time and I don't know how did You even come up with the idea to start balancing dark deal based on mist form. These are two completly different abilities. What's next? We will start balancing cloak around crystal frag? Saying "1 second cast time on dark deal/conversion is way too high considering everything in the game" really says nothing at all. By the same logic someone can say that considering everything in the game current iteration of streak is way too effective.

Dark deal is not just a heal. It's basically a countermeasure to streak ramping cost. This ability is a massive sustain boost so massive that some version of sorc like proc based stamsorc can completly ignore sustain departament in their gear and just go with 4x offensive proc sets with 3x infused wep dmg enchantments and still sustain just fine. If dark deal would have to become a reliable strong burst heal it would have to loose sustain component or have it drastically reduced. Dark conversion already have 10k tooltip which is close to what other classes are actually getting on their tooltips but it also restores high amounts of magicka back. How many classes actively and effectively utisilisg mist form for mobility have You actually seen? That ability is inferior to streak in every way and people almost never use it as chasing tool but more of an escaping tool and never to the extent that sorcs are using streak. Sorc was and still is the most mobile class in the game. Have You ever thougt that maybe ZoS has given so many mobility tools to other classes because of how strong sorc mobility is in the first place?

Sorc still have better and easier sustain than many other classes. And becuse of that he just needs one more strong thing to create broken setup. We have prove of it even right now with proc based stamsorc that have found an option to deal massive amounts of DoT pressure, something that sorc normally is lacking. In the past we had master destro which allowed sorc to have decent ranged spammable with a stun, rune cage change that allowed sorc to create decent burst combo with a stun, pirate skeleton monster set which allowed to give shields 30% dmg reduction from major protection ingoring minor defile drawback because health was secure under the shield etc. Literally every time when sorc gets something strong that covers one of his downsides it's possible to create completly broken setup. EVERY TIME. After mara's balm nerf proc based stamsorc will possibly be the best setup in BGs. Right now number of people playing this setup is raising with every day. Now imagine what would happen if they would get even stronger and more reliable healing.

Shields are really not main focus of arcanist defense in PvP. Group shield have weak value and health based shield, well ask templars how good that is. Sorc shielding is still stronger than arcanist shieldimg. It's literally same story as with mist. Every sorc was claiming it will be better than streak and we know now it isn't true. Same will happen with arcanist shields.

I will be switching my main from sorc to arcanist for sure as it’s simply better period.

Arcanist is better than sorc
Dk is better than sorc
Warden is better than sorc

Nb is better than everything else in the game and in every aspect of pvp.

That’s literally what matters

Barely anyone is talking about this class.

I see a lot of potential. If no one’s talking, it’s less likely to be nerfed.

Although the real nerfs will come about when nb mains complain about the class

The #1 eso pvp sacred code of balance states that there shall be no class stronger than nb

PhoenixGrey

Galeriano wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

TheTruestKing wrote: »

@Galeriano Hmm. For a Sorc main that just started playing ESO April 2023(no evidence of playing beta) you sure seem to be against the idea that sorcerer is weak and needs a buff in the survivability department. PvP Streamers like Hoarcrux and Nes ESO, Eman the Chosen, etc disagree with you. Do you believe sorcerer is in a good spot or not? Would be your supposed change? If you have an idea how about you make your own post and I'll come check it out and give you a thumbs up if it sounds good.

You do realise that in game account creation date is not connected to forum account creation date? All You can figure out from forum is when I created forum account not when I started playing the game so I don't know why You're implying I started to play in april 2023.

I am not against the idea of sorc getting some buffs just not the buffs some people are asking for like instant cast dark deal with even higher heal value. Sorc is in a pretty wierd spot atm and it varies what sorc and which type of PvP are we talking about. For example full proc stamsorc in BGs is really strong right now when played correctly and will be even stronger after mara's balm nerf. On the other hand classic max mag shield based sorc is underperforming when playing solo.

For me the best route wouldn't be just trying to add buffs to sorc but redesigning it by nerfing what's overperfoming which would open the space to buffing what's underperfoming. Blatant buffs won't solve the issue.

Blatant buffs will solve the issue as it will bring sorc at par with other classes. That is called balance

They won't. Thing is that when magsorc ios mediocre stamsorc is really strong. Quite frankly in BGs in next patch stamsorc will be top dog. So when magsorc will recive buffs that maybe will end up making him on pair with others stamsorc will become so strong that there will be no point in even playing magsorc.

How strong will it be?

Better than NB ?
Better than DK?
Better than Arcanist

I don’t think so. All I m trying to say is the gap between nb and the rest of the pile are so gigantic at this point is that blatant buffs are the only solution