Templar tweaks we can all probably live with

HiImRex

I’ve been keeping a close eye on the various discussions of Templar on PTS forums and ingame.

This was my takeaway from very insightful players:

(1) defense: buffs to toppling and rune were appreciated

(2) offense: the new sunsphere is a neat idea, with problem in implementation; namely - 5% is too low / no bar space for flare. Backlash scaling is still not working as intended with battle spirit.

(3) beam is too strong, especially combined with unblockable, armor piercing javelin stun

I’ve been thinking about simple ways to address these issues.

These are my suggestions:

(1) change beam to begin scaling at 30 - 40%

(2) reduce javelin range to 15m

(3) jabs - move 10 sec major sorcery to base ability. STAM jabs give 20 sec major sorcery instead.

(4) backlash - this needs a recode to fix, I believe the new way it is coded, there’s a certain amount of damage you need to do to reach max scaling. The code calculates the required damage as a flat number.

Let’s say the game wants you to deal 20,000 damage in order to max out backlash scaling damage. This works fine in PVE. In pvp, battle spirit halves the damage dealt. But it seems the game still requires the same amount of damage dealt (20,000 in my example) to hit max scaling damage. But I do half damage in pvp, essentially double dipping into battle spirit. That’s my guess.

Here’s a band aid solution: “deals 60-80% more damage to players”.

(5) flare - increase class skills buff to 10%

(6) flare - give 10 sec major prophecy/savagery on activation

Please discuss, would love to hear the community’s thoughts.

merpins

So PVE is completely reliant on beam to do any damage at all. Without it, Templar does no damage at all and wouldn't be a class worth using for DPS.

In PVE, there are only 2 things the class is missing; a spammable and a burst damage skill that isn't an execute. The two skills that used to cover that requirement, jabs and backlash, were nerfed so hard that 1. No one uses Jabs at all, and 2. it's so bad that the only reason to slot it is minor breach when your party doesn't have access to it.
The fix on the PVE side is simple. Revert jabs and backlash. If those two skills were changed back to their old versions, pre nerf and pre animation change, the class would work again. Having a spammable and a burst is all the class is missing. It doesn't need tweaks elsewhere, it just needs skills that every other class has access to... Other than Sorc which has been in a not ideal place since before Templar has been having these problems.

If they were reverted, then the beam could have a nerf. But without that, the beam shouldn't be nerfed.

Ratzkifal

Stam jabs having a longer duration does nothing. Nobody has struggled with uptime of Major Sorcery.
The problem is after the nerfs the ability simply does too little damage. Magicka templars can use other skills to compensate but stamina templar doesn't have other skills.
Their pressure tool is jabs. They have nothing else. I have 3 templars and I hate playing stamplar since U35 and that is mostly due to the new animation, reduced number of hits and lower dps (with the expectation that I need to do proper weaving now, which I was glad I didn't have to before).

Arcanists aren't expected to weave, so why must Templars be?

FrancisCrawford

HiImRex wrote: »

I’ve been keeping a close eye on the various discussions of Templar on PTS forums and ingame.

This was my takeaway from very insightful players:

(1) defense: buffs to toppling and rune were appreciated

(2) offense: the new sunsphere is a neat idea, with problem in implementation; namely - 5% is too low / no bar space for flare. Backlash scaling is still not working as intended with battle spirit.

(3) beam is too strong, especially combined with unblockable, armor piercing javelin stun

I’ve been thinking about simple ways to address these issues.

These are my suggestions:

(1) change beam to begin scaling at 30 - 40%

(2) reduce javelin range to 15m

(3) jabs - move 10 sec major sorcery to base ability. STAM jabs give 20 sec major sorcery instead.

(4) backlash - this needs a recode to fix, I believe the new way it is coded, there’s a certain amount of damage you need to do to reach max scaling. The code calculates the required damage as a flat number.

Let’s say the game wants you to deal 20,000 damage in order to max out backlash scaling damage. This works fine in PVE. In pvp, battle spirit halves the damage dealt. But it seems the game still requires the same amount of damage dealt (20,000 in my example) to hit max scaling damage. But I do half damage in pvp, essentially double dipping into battle spirit. That’s my guess.

Here’s a band aid solution: “deals 60-80% more damage to players”.

(5) flare - increase class skills buff to 10%

(6) flare - give 10 sec major prophecy/savagery on activation

Please discuss, would love to hear the community’s thoughts.

If you're right, then fixing the coding directly should be as easy as any other option. In particular, it should be no harder (and probably actually easier) than whatever work went into the most recent failed change.

Solariken

Beam is not too strong, it's perfect as is.

Javelin range is also fine. If it needs a nerf they should slow the speed a bit (it actually used to be slower back in the day, and looked better then too IMO)

The only skill in the "plar kit that needs a nerf is Living Dark.

Major Protection on the gap closer is ok I guess but IMO it should be on Everlasting Sweep.

I hate the 5% damage buff to class skills idea, it should be a buff to all damage.

Backlash absolutely needs changed/fixed. At this point I'm sure it's NOT dev neglect - they want this skill to be bad in PvP for some reason.

nemesrichard

HiImRex wrote: »

I’ve been keeping a close eye on the various discussions of Templar on PTS forums and ingame.

This was my takeaway from very insightful players:

(1) defense: buffs to toppling and rune were appreciated

(2) offense: the new sunsphere is a neat idea, with problem in implementation; namely - 5% is too low / no bar space for flare. Backlash scaling is still not working as intended with battle spirit.

(3) beam is too strong, especially combined with unblockable, armor piercing javelin stun

I’ve been thinking about simple ways to address these issues.

These are my suggestions:

(1) change beam to begin scaling at 30 - 40%

(2) reduce javelin range to 15m

(3) jabs - move 10 sec major sorcery to base ability. STAM jabs give 20 sec major sorcery instead.

(4) backlash - this needs a recode to fix, I believe the new way it is coded, there’s a certain amount of damage you need to do to reach max scaling. The code calculates the required damage as a flat number.

Let’s say the game wants you to deal 20,000 damage in order to max out backlash scaling damage. This works fine in PVE. In pvp, battle spirit halves the damage dealt. But it seems the game still requires the same amount of damage dealt (20,000 in my example) to hit max scaling damage. But I do half damage in pvp, essentially double dipping into battle spirit. That’s my guess.

Here’s a band aid solution: “deals 60-80% more damage to players”.

(5) flare - increase class skills buff to 10%

(6) flare - give 10 sec major prophecy/savagery on activation

Please discuss, would love to hear the community’s thoughts.

So lets nerf Templar and HA at the same time. Why not delete Templar class at all?

Hotdog_23

Change Radiant Aura into a crowd control skill for the Templar tank, since no one really used that skill at all. Make either lock down enemies like DK's claw or pull like Vateshran one hand and shield. Templar has no crowd control abilities. Sure, Javelin can stun, but it's only one target and not really useful to a tank. Like the pull idea better myself.

Stay safe

gariondavey

Solariken wrote: »

Beam is not too strong, it's perfect as is.

Javelin range is also fine. If it needs a nerf they should slow the speed a bit (it actually used to be slower back in the day, and looked better then too IMO)

The only skill in the "plar kit that needs a nerf is Living Dark.

Major Protection on the gap closer is ok I guess but IMO it should be on Everlasting Sweep.

I hate the 5% damage buff to class skills idea, it should be a buff to all damage.

Backlash absolutely needs changed/fixed. At this point I'm sure it's NOT dev neglect - they want this skill to be bad in PvP for some reason.

Concealed weapon - minor expedition, UNNAMED major berserk, major resolve, not reduced by major and minor evasion, sets off balance

Jabs - major brut/sorcery, reduced by major and minor evasion

With arcanist coming out, jabs is essentially getting a 10 percent nerf in pvp beyond dueling a non-arcasnist. Jabs damage already is bad due to the over-nerfs a few patches ago.
Even if jabs got a 10 percent damage boost, it would still not be a buff in pvp due to arcanist...it would just remain the same.
But instead of a 10 percent unnamed buff on a skill quintessential to the templar playstyle, we get a 5 percent buff to only class skills, and that's on a skill nobody uses.

The reality is templar needs:
Jabs - major brut/sorc moved to base skill. Base skill damage needs increasing AND should apply an unnamed major berserk like concealed weapon does, in order for this skill to be remotely usable in pvp when arcanist comes out.

Beam - revert to previous level (it had received a 20 percent buff

Backlash - reverted to previous level or reworked to be a 6 second delayed damage skill with a similar tooltip to curse. If zos can't make the calculations make sense for scaling with the damage buildup (an already difficult delayed damage style, as other classes just cast + forget), just rework it like curse, man.

Toppling - if you want to keep the major protection buff, which isn't needed, imo, at least give it 10 seconds duration. Nobody uses explosive as it doesn't stun unless they are casting, and it doesn't off balance unless they are casting (explosive gets 10 second duration). Setting off balance let's you run stuhns, which is really the only reason to run toppling anyway.

Solar barrage - has been nerfed like 3 times in the last 3+ years. Damage is wildly low. If you are intent on giving a passive damage buff on this skill, let it give major berserk for 2 seconds if damage is dealt. And boost the damage of the skill.

Rune - not really needed but thank you for the change

In the end, jabs damage is bad now, and will be 10 percent worse in next patch due to arcanist passive minor evasion for everyone.
Backlash is broken and needs to do 2x damage it currently does or needs a simple rework to be like curse.
Beam needs a tiny bit toning back (revert the fairly recent 20 percent buff.

YandereGirlfriend

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Change Radiant Aura into a crowd control skill for the Templar tank, since no one really used that skill at all. Make either lock down enemies like DK's claw or pull like Vateshran one hand and shield. Templar has no crowd control abilities. Sure, Javelin can stun, but it's only one target and not really useful to a tank. Like the pull idea better myself.

Stay safe

Radiant Aura gets plenty of use in PvP so hands off, please.

StarOfElyon

Solariken wrote: »

Beam is not too strong, it's perfect as is.

My good sir or madame, please put your bias aside; the beam is absolutely busted since it got buffed. It was perfect where it was, not where it is.

EramTheLiar

I don't think major sorcery should be part of base jabs. If it is, 20 sec major sorcery for stam jabs is just not equal to 10 sec plus heal for Magicka jabs. Stam morph would need more than that.

xDeusEJRx

EramTheLiar wrote: »

I don't think major sorcery should be part of base jabs. If it is, 20 sec major sorcery for stam jabs is just not equal to 10 sec plus heal for Magicka jabs. Stam morph would need more than that.

Nah major sorcery definitely needs to be apart of base jabs. If they wanted full hybridization it makes literally 0 sense for very specific classes(namely Magplar and Necromancer) to be left out of the "having access to critical buffs" club.

EramTheLiar

I guess my point is if it's part of base jabs there is no good trait for the stamina morph. Extending the duration would be pointless. Jabs is a spammable.

gariondavey

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Beam is not too strong, it's perfect as is.

My good sir or madame, please put your bias aside; the beam is absolutely busted since it got buffed. It was perfect where it was, not where it is.

Beam only got buffed 20 percent more from 480 percent. It wasn't changed to be that much better. People just started using it more as jabs and backlash got wrecked.

Daggerfell0929

Just give both morphs of jabs a unique 1000 armor penetration debuff that lasts around 5 seconds or so.

FlamingBeard

gariondavey wrote: »

Beam needs a tiny bit toning back (revert the fairly recent 20 percent buff.

Beam did not get a 20% buff. The execute scaling of 480% was slightly increased to 500%.

A 480% modifer to a 500% modifier is ~4.16% increase.

Beam is only used so often in PvP because Templar has quite literally no other reasonable method of confirming kills with Purifying Light/Power of the Light and Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs all hitting like warm noodles.

gariondavey

FlamingBeard wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Beam needs a tiny bit toning back (revert the fairly recent 20 percent buff.

Beam did not get a 20% buff. The execute scaling of 480% was slightly increased to 500%.

A 480% modifer to a 500% modifier is ~4.16% increase.

Beam is only used so often in PvP because Templar has quite literally no other reasonable method of confirming kills with Purifying Light/Power of the Light and Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs all hitting like warm noodles.

I'm aware, and this is what I was saying.

FlamingBeard

gariondavey wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Beam needs a tiny bit toning back (revert the fairly recent 20 percent buff.

Beam did not get a 20% buff. The execute scaling of 480% was slightly increased to 500%.

A 480% modifer to a 500% modifier is ~4.16% increase.

Beam is only used so often in PvP because Templar has quite literally no other reasonable method of confirming kills with Purifying Light/Power of the Light and Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs all hitting like warm noodles.

I'm aware, and this is what I was saying.

PvE Templar beam had moderately low PvE damage to justify the channel time so they slightly increased only the upper end of damage by a fraction of a fraction. This means PvP Templars never saw a functional increase in their damage due to how Battle Spirit filters damage dealt/taken.

Saying something was "buffed 20%" as an argument when it's not true perpetuates "overpowered" rants when most of these skills are only used for lack of better options.

gariondavey

FlamingBeard wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Beam needs a tiny bit toning back (revert the fairly recent 20 percent buff.

Beam did not get a 20% buff. The execute scaling of 480% was slightly increased to 500%.

A 480% modifer to a 500% modifier is ~4.16% increase.

Beam is only used so often in PvP because Templar has quite literally no other reasonable method of confirming kills with Purifying Light/Power of the Light and Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs all hitting like warm noodles.

I'm aware, and this is what I was saying.

PvE Templar beam had moderately low PvE damage to justify the channel time so they slightly increased only the upper end of damage by a fraction of a fraction. This means PvP Templars never saw a functional increase in their damage due to how Battle Spirit filters damage dealt/taken.

Saying something was "buffed 20%" as an argument when it's not true perpetuates "overpowered" rants when most of these skills are only used for lack of better options.

My point has been people say it is extremely overtuned in pvp, but it barely received a buff at all. People just started using it more due to poor backlash and jab damage, so now people see it on their recaps.

My point was...if people weren't complaining about how strong this was before the increase of 20 percent more from 480 percent scaling...then reverting this should be acceptable to tone it down.
The reality is people would likely still complain, but again, that's because they aren't complaining about jabs or backlash.

FlamingBeard

gariondavey wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

FlamingBeard wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Beam needs a tiny bit toning back (revert the fairly recent 20 percent buff.

Beam did not get a 20% buff. The execute scaling of 480% was slightly increased to 500%.

A 480% modifer to a 500% modifier is ~4.16% increase.

Beam is only used so often in PvP because Templar has quite literally no other reasonable method of confirming kills with Purifying Light/Power of the Light and Puncturing Sweep/Biting Jabs all hitting like warm noodles.

I'm aware, and this is what I was saying.

PvE Templar beam had moderately low PvE damage to justify the channel time so they slightly increased only the upper end of damage by a fraction of a fraction. This means PvP Templars never saw a functional increase in their damage due to how Battle Spirit filters damage dealt/taken.

Saying something was "buffed 20%" as an argument when it's not true perpetuates "overpowered" rants when most of these skills are only used for lack of better options.

My point has been people say it is extremely overtuned in pvp, but it barely received a buff at all. People just started using it more due to poor backlash and jab damage, so now people see it on their recaps.

My point was...if people weren't complaining about how strong this was before the increase of 20 percent more from 480 percent scaling...then reverting this should be acceptable to tone it down.
The reality is people would likely still complain, but again, that's because they aren't complaining about jabs or backlash.

I see the logic, but people calling it over-tuned is placebo effect due to its bright, easily seen effect among almost every other skill in the game, or maybe they died to a ball group's healbot one too many times.

Nerfing it would only hurt PvE Templar unnecessarily and the PvP beam-haters would still complain.

I say we leave beam out of the discussion completely for now until the real, palpable issues with this particular class' toolkit are addressed, since it leads to unproductive nitpicking.

LukosCreyden

How to make templar good in 2 easy steps:

1. Revert jabs animation.
2. Take some power out of beam and put it into other skills (any other skill tbh, but jabs would be nice.)

Galeriano

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Beam is not too strong, it's perfect as is.

My good sir or madame, please put your bias aside; the beam is absolutely busted since it got buffed. It was perfect where it was, not where it is.

The real issue with beam started because of javelin change. Now templar have undodgable range execute and unblockable range stun which very often leaves enemy without countermeasures.

Also javelin spamming templars are just annoying in PvP no matter on which side they are. If they are an enemy they will be just sending You flying in random directions all the time if they are in Your team and You are a meele character they will be just giving enemy free CC immunity and knocking him away from You.

It's basically like giving a machine gun to a monkey.