Does Magwarden need a rework?

ChubaNinja

I came back to the game in December after a 2 year break, and after playing my main (Magwarden) I have come to feel like there is no identity for the magden. Most pve vet builds use stam warden morphs and non warden skills. I think the warden could use some buffs and or reworks to abilities that are rarely ever used. Also why does the warden have a passive towards using a specific weapon (frost staff) but flame is still meta anyways, so it's a wasted passive. I love the warden and I really wish zos didn't do it dirty for all these years 😪

Afterip

Dont be greedy, Magdens got rework few updated ago so now it other class should get it.
BTW and if you dont like rework this is not meant that need a new rework.

WrathOfInnos

Stam or hybrid warden is no better off. Any warden DPS is a joke currently. Shalks just don't deal any damage, and were extended so long that they're just another DoT (destroying the rhythm and feel of the class). Even "good" DoTs like Fetcher infection deal very low damage now, it feels like an obligation to run it for Minor Vuln, but otherwise not worth slotting or casting.

Then there are the absurd changes that restrict multiple CLASS skills to requiring a specific WEAPON (frost or destruction staff). That alone ensures that warden cannot be competitive as a DD, since they cannot even wield the better weapon types without losing power from their main toolkit.

Full rework needed. Or maybe a de-work, since the class was excellent a few years ago. Fun, unique, versatile, well-balanced. I cannot use any of those words for warden currently.

Runefang

I used to love playing a warden, it had a built in metronome. Shall, skill, skill, repeat. Now it’s awful to play and damage is low. The combat team never begins with the end in mind, it’s a bunch of small adjustments that over time have take them way off course.

Necromancers are no better, the skills don’t fire consistently enough to feel good to use either.

Nser

Even with the 9s second fissure I find myself constantly recasting once the first goes off, or if i want to (re)start a combo.
6 seconds inbetween is horrible for PvP unless you stricly use the 2nd fissure when going for a burst but thats what, 6 seconds of doing nothing or pointlessly refreshing buffs to kill the inbetween time.
Like people have said there used to be a flow to warden, shalk skill skill and repeat and this felt GREAT

Nser

Give the stronger 2nd fissure to Sub Assault (first goes of at 3s, 2nd goes off at 6s being stronger) and revert Deep Fissure back to a single hit on 3s timer with major+minor breach for 10s and restore some of its former damage.
People who still dont want to "micromanage" a rotation can use the 6s Sub assault, while the veterans of the class can back to shalk skill skill.
Perhaps give Sub Assault Major breach for 6s.

In short:
-Sub Assault 2 ticks, first goes off at 3s and 2nd goes off at 6s with increased damage
adds major breach for 6s
-Deep fissure goes off once, at 3s
Restore some of its damage
adds major + minor breach for 10s

ESO_Nightingale

what it needs is some new form of mastery of it's rotation. this normally takes place in the form of a minigame. examples of which include spectral bow, bound armaments, molten whip and power of the light. in the past i'd call skills like this "anchor skills" as the rotation revolves around it.

Since the shalks changes, the 3 second rotation minigame has been taken away from us. the idea of it was that it was supposed to reduce buff reapplication, but we only have our spammable to use as a filler in addition. something like an execute would help a bit with that, but it wouldn't fufil the role entirely. i don't see them returning shalks back to a 3 second timer so a rotational rework would probably be a good idea.

there's been some changes that have overall helped improve frost warden as a whole, but there's also some that just have driven warden in poor directions. the shalks changes and forced use of the destruction staff through winter's revenge and piercing cold have not been healthy for the class. each time we've tried to fight them and been either ignored or additional changes haven't solved the problems. it's like for every good change, like with arctic blast and glacial presence there's been more terrible changes to just bring us back where we started.

ESO_Nightingale

Afterip wrote: »

Dont be greedy, Magdens got rework few updated ago so now it other class should get it.
BTW and if you dont like rework this is not meant that need a new rework.

i understand this sentiment seeing as warden did get some changes recently in the last year and some of them have been good, however, unlike every other class, it's rotational uniqueness was stripped away with the shalks changes during lost depths. every class has some type of unique rotation defining skill/skills now except for warden, the old 3 second rule was very unique as it encouraged a lot of mastery to be able to hit shalks every 3 seconds and make sure your bar swapping and dot timers lined up with it. now there's a ton more freedom in your rotation which makes it feel more like a dot and there's a comparable skill in daedric prey for sorcerer. if you played sorcerer imagine your only rotational defining skill being daedric prey, you don't have crystal frags or bound armaments.
it's not a lot to work with in terms of a unique or even fun rotation. warden needs something new that can fufill that role or a revert back to the 3 second timer rule in addition to a substanstial resource sustain and damage boost. hell our sustain is famously terrible right now.

we also need to remove the destruction staff stipulation from winter's revenge and if we're going to keep a frost staff specific damage boost, let it ONLY boost frost damage in order to make it balanced in a way where a frost staff damage build is on par with other weapons. piercing cold should then be brought up to a level where warden damage dealers get a great deal out of it regardless of what weapon they use.

an example could look like this:

Increases your damage done by 5% and your frost damage done by 5%. The frost damage increases to 15% when wielding an Ice Staff.

this would mean everyone gets a 5% damage boost and an additional 5% frost damage boost. so, in effect you would have +10% frost damage and +5% non frost damage. however, frost staff wardens would gain 5% all damage and 20% increased frost damage. as frost wardens spec into a lot more frost damage overall, this helps them significantly more than other warden damage dealers as they have a much higher frost damage % in their overall damage profile. this is to make up for the fact that the frost staff currently does not give a damage bonus and makes it a lot less punishing for stamina wardens.

this is very similar to how it currently works. the idea they're currently going for is that the bonus to using a frost staff is to make up for the loss on the destruction staff but in a way where only warden is able to effectively damage deal with it.

the problem is that they didn't compensate the non frost staff wardens anywhere near enough for it to be reasonable, but they also made the bonus for the frost staff too strong. compared to everyone else it increases all damage by 10% (as the extra 2% listed is in general, so you're only getting 10% more than non frost staff) when the fire staff does ONLY single target by 10% and the shock staff does ONLY aoe by 10%. this means that for frost staff wardens, they get both of shock and fire's bonuses at the same time from using it, by making the bonus only specifically for frost damage builds, it heavily reins it in to be more balanced for everyone. they need to bring up the class's damage as whole. you shouldn't be punished for wanting to use a non frost staff. that isn't what anyone wanted. and when i saw people complaining that we wanted that, i got so mad because i tried to fight against it. it's just hard to be listened to.

that's my rant over. i've been trying so hard to get this changed.

Afterip

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

...

I'm not a PvE player, but Magden is very strong in pvp, I would put him in 2 or 3rd place among all the mage classes. And I don't want to see warden goes stronger in pvp ascpect...

ESO_Nightingale

Afterip wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

...

I'm not a PvE player, but Magden is very strong in pvp, I would put him in 2 or 3rd place among all the mage classes. And I don't want to see warden goes stronger in pvp ascpect...

there's a couple of reasons why it's strong there and arctic blast is a pretty big reason, not the only one of course, but while it does huge burst healing and a stun in 1 skill, warden will be pretty strong from a defensive aspect. polar wind is extremely strong too. adjustments to those skills would be fair compensation for a damage increase elsewhere in the kit seeing as from what i've heard, wardens are really good at living right now but can struggle to kill. sustain i'm not 100% sure on from a pvp perspective, i know it was nerfed on crystallized shield+ morphs but our sustain is absolutely the worst in pve.

Soarora

NO. I love my magden in PvE and PvP. If anything is changed it should be giving us our % damage done passive back. I don’t know of any dead morphs on any class skill outside of the healing line and bear morphs.

ESO_Nightingale

Soarora wrote: »

NO. I love my magden in PvE and PvP. If anything is changed it should be giving us our % damage done passive back. I don’t know of any dead morphs on any class skill outside of the healing line and bear morphs.

look at frozen retreat, that is certainly not a morph people use except for meming in towns.

Greystag

Runefang wrote: »

I used to love playing a warden, it had a built in metronome. Shall, skill, skill, repeat. Now it’s awful to play and damage is low. The combat team never begins with the end in mind, it’s a bunch of small adjustments that over time have take them way off course.

Necromancers are no better, the skills don’t fire consistently enough to feel good to use either.

I really miss this aspect of wardens. While I don't like the visuals of Shalks, I like its playstyle. It felt really unique and satisfying to use. The new version feels dreadful to use, as the wait between 3 and 9 seconds feels very anticlimactic. Current mag Shalks feel like they'd be the base skill to the stamina morph, in a way...

I can't be bothered to switch my rotation around for the nth time though so I stuck to the original 3 second rotation even if it's barely sustainable.

NuarBlack

My experience is almost Identical. Came back after a break and couldn't believe what they did to my boi

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Afterip wrote: »

Dont be greedy, Magdens got rework few updated ago so now it other class should get it.
BTW and if you dont like rework this is not meant that need a new rework.

i understand this sentiment seeing as warden did get some changes recently in the last year and some of them have been good, however, unlike every other class, it's rotational uniqueness was stripped away with the shalks changes during lost depths. every class has some type of unique rotation defining skill/skills now except for warden, the old 3 second rule was very unique as it encouraged a lot of mastery to be able to hit shalks every 3 seconds and make sure your bar swapping and dot timers lined up with it. now there's a ton more freedom in your rotation which makes it feel more like a dot and there's a comparable skill in daedric prey for sorcerer. if you played sorcerer imagine your only rotational defining skill being daedric prey, you don't have crystal frags or bound armaments.
it's not a lot to work with in terms of a unique or even fun rotation. warden needs something new that can fufill that role or a revert back to the 3 second timer rule in addition to a substanstial resource sustain and damage boost. hell our sustain is famously terrible right now.

we also need to remove the destruction staff stipulation from winter's revenge and if we're going to keep a frost staff specific damage boost, let it ONLY boost frost damage in order to make it balanced in a way where a frost staff damage build is on par with other weapons. piercing cold should then be brought up to a level where warden damage dealers get a great deal out of it regardless of what weapon they use.

an example could look like this:

Increases your damage done by 5% and your frost damage done by 5%. The frost damage increases to 15% when wielding an Ice Staff.

this would mean everyone gets a 5% damage boost and an additional 5% frost damage boost. so, in effect you would have +10% frost damage and +5% non frost damage. however, frost staff wardens would gain 5% all damage and 20% increased frost damage. as frost wardens spec into a lot more frost damage overall, this helps them significantly more than other warden damage dealers as they have a much higher frost damage % in their overall damage profile. this is to make up for the fact that the frost staff currently does not give a damage bonus and makes it a lot less punishing for stamina wardens.

this is very similar to how it currently works. the idea they're currently going for is that the bonus to using a frost staff is to make up for the loss on the destruction staff but in a way where only warden is able to effectively damage deal with it.

the problem is that they didn't compensate the non frost staff wardens anywhere near enough for it to be reasonable, but they also made the bonus for the frost staff too strong. compared to everyone else it increases all damage by 10% (as the extra 2% listed is in general, so you're only getting 10% more than non frost staff) when the fire staff does ONLY single target by 10% and the shock staff does ONLY aoe by 10%. this means that for frost staff wardens, they get both of shock and fire's bonuses at the same time from using it, by making the bonus only specifically for frost damage builds, it heavily reins it in to be more balanced for everyone. they need to bring up the class's damage as whole. you shouldn't be punished for wanting to use a non frost staff. that isn't what anyone wanted. and when i saw people complaining that we wanted that, i got so mad because i tried to fight against it. it's just hard to be listened to.

that's my rant over. i've been trying so hard to get this changed.

I can't fault your logic here, I just feel like the better route might be to just double down on Magden being the frost DD. Maybe fix the mandatory frost staff requirement by making piercing cold just increase frost damage in general, but changing birds, shalks, and fetcher to frost damage could put magden into a nice niche and allow synergies across tree passive. Even as someone who has used War Maiden a lot on my magden I'd be willing to give it up for a true frost Mage that they have been tickling the edges of since Morrowind.

Also make Fetcher mechanic more consistent in shorter encounters. Most the game is not played against trial bosses. Make shalks or birds ramp the damage or something. The every 2nd cast is a throw away mechanic because you can't build or plan a rotation around it really, you just treat it like a 50% rng.

ixthUA

So wardens have a skill set for damage (animals), healing (plants and mushrooms) and tanking (ice). Why are people trying to DD with a tanking skill set?
To make classes better, we can pick any of the morphs, yet people still try to play with only mag or stam morphs, why?
There are heavy attacks that can carry any class in endgame pve, yet people still say that class is useless if it cannot reach 100k dps with light attacks, why?

ESO_Nightingale

ixthUA wrote: »

So wardens have a skill set for damage (animals), healing (plants and mushrooms) and tanking (ice). Why are people trying to DD with a tanking skill set?

Because the damage skill line only consists of 3 damage skills and 1 ultimate. This argument is really strange. Frost Magic is part of the destruction skill group in lore. It always has been so it only makes sense that you're able to build around that. It's also been shown time and time again that having 2 tanking focused morphs for a skill only leads to 1 being used and the other being neglected where as damage skills with 2 morphs are able to specialize for pvp or pve, stam or mag. However if you have a tanking skill with a morph that makes it better for tanking, and a morph that makes it good for damage, then you'll have 2 groups of players that are happy. Winter's Embrace isn't just the tanking line anymore. It's also a damage line too.

merpins

Stamden needs more of a buff than Magden, but it's not doing great in PVE regardless of the build.

Soarora

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NO. I love my magden in PvE and PvP. If anything is changed it should be giving us our % damage done passive back. I don’t know of any dead morphs on any class skill outside of the healing line and bear morphs.

look at frozen retreat, that is certainly not a morph people use except for meming in towns.

I use it! I use it when exploring with a group (or help other people, like getting on top of a wayshrine) to help them reach places and in ErE 3rd secret boss where if you fall you have to run all the way back.

ESO_Nightingale

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NO. I love my magden in PvE and PvP. If anything is changed it should be giving us our % damage done passive back. I don’t know of any dead morphs on any class skill outside of the healing line and bear morphs.

look at frozen retreat, that is certainly not a morph people use except for meming in towns.

I use it! I use it when exploring with a group (or help other people, like getting on top of a wayshrine) to help them reach places and in ErE 3rd secret boss where if you fall you have to run all the way back.

That's so specifically niche, now arcanist will be able to do that for the entire group more effectively with passage between worlds. Frozen Retreat is definitely a morph that is questionably viable if you only use it in overland or towns.

ixthUA

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Because the damage skill line only consists of 3 damage skills and 1 ultimate. This argument is really strange. Frost Magic is part of the destruction skill group in lore. It always has been so it only makes sense that you're able to build around that. It's also been shown time and time again that having 2 tanking focused morphs for a skill only leads to 1 being used and the other being neglected where as damage skills with 2 morphs are able to specialize for pvp or pve, stam or mag. However if you have a tanking skill with a morph that makes it better for tanking, and a morph that makes it good for damage, then you'll have 2 groups of players that are happy. Winter's Embrace isn't just the tanking line anymore. It's also a damage line too.

Wardens are supposed to use skills from world, guilds, alliance war and so on. Bear ultimate is also a damage skill, as it is active all time.
Tanks need to deal some damage too. Ice tree of wardens was designed for tanks.

ESO_Nightingale

ixthUA wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Because the damage skill line only consists of 3 damage skills and 1 ultimate. This argument is really strange. Frost Magic is part of the destruction skill group in lore. It always has been so it only makes sense that you're able to build around that. It's also been shown time and time again that having 2 tanking focused morphs for a skill only leads to 1 being used and the other being neglected where as damage skills with 2 morphs are able to specialize for pvp or pve, stam or mag. However if you have a tanking skill with a morph that makes it better for tanking, and a morph that makes it good for damage, then you'll have 2 groups of players that are happy. Winter's Embrace isn't just the tanking line anymore. It's also a damage line too.

Wardens are supposed to use skills from world, guilds, alliance war and so on. Bear ultimate is also a damage skill, as it is active all time.
Tanks need to deal some damage too. Ice tree of wardens was designed for tanks.

Firstly, everyone is able to use skills from world, guilds, alliance war and whatever this is a random argument that has no bearing on the class skill line. None of those skills except for ice comet deal frost damage. Weapon skills and class skills are the only other sources of frost damage skills we have. Yes, bear is a damage skill, but it's an ultimate that you can only press once every 40 seconds or so and isn't very helpful in overland pvp due to it's dumb ai, what i was focusing on were the 5 skills you can slot on each bar and use at any time, your rotational skills. Of which, warden only has 3 in animal companions. Green balance does not have a single damage dealing skill in it's lines and has no passive that increases damage in any way.

winter's embrace is based around the element of frost which is part of the destruction school of magic. As such, many of winter's embrace's skills deal frost damage. It was only natural that some morphs in this line, would be repurposed for damage dealing given the lack of space in the rest of the class. In addition some of the passives provided damage increases too. Sure, tanks need to deal some damage too, however their morphs do not focus on it. Winter's Revenge and Arctic Blast are not made for tanks given their scaling while their opposite morphs are. Gripping Shards scales from health but it roots enemies while polar wind heals a lot based on health but does no damage and instead gives that healing to an ally that is nearby.

When you look at the passives and the morphs we have access to within winter's embrace, it showcases that the skill line is BOTH a tanking line and a damage line.

Soarora

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NO. I love my magden in PvE and PvP. If anything is changed it should be giving us our % damage done passive back. I don’t know of any dead morphs on any class skill outside of the healing line and bear morphs.

look at frozen retreat, that is certainly not a morph people use except for meming in towns.

I use it! I use it when exploring with a group (or help other people, like getting on top of a wayshrine) to help them reach places and in ErE 3rd secret boss where if you fall you have to run all the way back.

That's so specifically niche, now arcanist will be able to do that for the entire group more effectively with passage between worlds. Frozen Retreat is definitely a morph that is questionably viable if you only use it in overland or towns.

Niche use is still use! Arcanist may or may not work to fulfill the same niche I have not tried it in scenarios that the warden portals are. I don’t see any problem in leaving the functionality in there. (Putting it on the “tank morph” causes problems too because people accidentally hit x). However, I could still see both morphs improved where the “tank morph” teleports many enemies and the “port morph” no longer teleports enemies but does something different alongside teleporting players. Maybe something beneficial for solo players since they wont accidentally use their own synergy.

ESO_Nightingale

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

NO. I love my magden in PvE and PvP. If anything is changed it should be giving us our % damage done passive back. I don’t know of any dead morphs on any class skill outside of the healing line and bear morphs.

look at frozen retreat, that is certainly not a morph people use except for meming in towns.

I use it! I use it when exploring with a group (or help other people, like getting on top of a wayshrine) to help them reach places and in ErE 3rd secret boss where if you fall you have to run all the way back.

That's so specifically niche, now arcanist will be able to do that for the entire group more effectively with passage between worlds. Frozen Retreat is definitely a morph that is questionably viable if you only use it in overland or towns.

Niche use is still use! Arcanist may or may not work to fulfill the same niche I have not tried it in scenarios that the warden portals are. I don’t see any problem in leaving the functionality in there. (Putting it on the “tank morph” causes problems too because people accidentally hit x). However, I could still see both morphs improved where the “tank morph” teleports many enemies and the “port morph” no longer teleports enemies but does something different alongside teleporting players. Maybe something beneficial for solo players since they wont accidentally use their own synergy.

It wouldn't be op if they combined device and retreat. Honestly it'd just make device more enticing than silver leash. I used to think the synergy would be bad if it was widespread but it'd just be a small learning adjustment to not throw it in the group. Having 2 tank morphs just leaves one being inferior so combining them and reworking retreat would likely allow both parties, dps and tank to be happy. The synergy would probably be better if it was placed on a reworked bursting vines though as gripping people to save them is usually a healer's job.

UNSeki

Please no. I'm tired of reworks (although I do understand Necromancer might need some). Changing a single effect on a skill or passive is fine, but please stop changing how classes work every other patch.

Instead, start by addressing the weaknesses of magden. One thing I think we all could agree on is underwhelming sustain. If you don't build for magicka recovery, you'll run dry pretty soon.

I don't have much of a problem with warden DPS tbh, but I only played 4-man dungeons and BG with my wardens so far and, as I understand from the complaints, people are not hitting the damage ceilings to warrant wardens being in a trial group over other classes (?) and magden is struggling in PvP. One thing is a lack of a strong spammable and the reduced effectiveness of Shalk bursts.

Also, Frozen Device was never a great skill and now it has no point in the game anymore, thanks to the Arcanist. Now that's one skill I would like to see reworked to be more damage oriented. Maybe a long lasting area skill with pulses of strong bursts that could increase overall damage in PvE as well as burst and zoning in PvP? Maybe a combo skill that increases the strengh of your Shalks and whatnot?

Another thing I would personally like to see is the addition of Major Brittle in the Warden's kit. It's weird that anyone can have it with Nunatak while the ice themed class doesn't have it by default.

ixthUA

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstly, everyone is able to use skills from world, guilds, alliance war and whatever this is a random argument that has no bearing on the class skill line. None of those skills except for ice comet deal frost damage. Weapon skills and class skills are the only other sources of frost damage skills we have. Yes, bear is a damage skill, but it's an ultimate that you can only press once every 40 seconds or so and isn't very helpful in overland pvp due to it's dumb ai, what i was focusing on were the 5 skills you can slot on each bar and use at any time, your rotational skills. Of which, warden only has 3 in animal companions. Green balance does not have a single damage dealing skill in it's lines and has no passive that increases damage in any way.

winter's embrace is based around the element of frost which is part of the destruction school of magic. As such, many of winter's embrace's skills deal frost damage. It was only natural that some morphs in this line, would be repurposed for damage dealing given the lack of space in the rest of the class. In addition some of the passives provided damage increases too. Sure, tanks need to deal some damage too, however their morphs do not focus on it. Winter's Revenge and Arctic Blast are not made for tanks given their scaling while their opposite morphs are. Gripping Shards scales from health but it roots enemies while polar wind heals a lot based on health but does no damage and instead gives that healing to an ally that is nearby.

When you look at the passives and the morphs we have access to within winter's embrace, it showcases that the skill line is BOTH a tanking line and a damage line.

Nowhere is said that game should have a frost class that can fight using only frost skills.
On my warden tank (36k hp, normal dlc dungeons) i use winters revenge for convenience, with ice staff (43% more damage) i can do some AOE damage.
Arctic blast is clearly a PvP skill due to its stun.

ESO_Nightingale

ixthUA wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstly, everyone is able to use skills from world, guilds, alliance war and whatever this is a random argument that has no bearing on the class skill line. None of those skills except for ice comet deal frost damage. Weapon skills and class skills are the only other sources of frost damage skills we have. Yes, bear is a damage skill, but it's an ultimate that you can only press once every 40 seconds or so and isn't very helpful in overland pvp due to it's dumb ai, what i was focusing on were the 5 skills you can slot on each bar and use at any time, your rotational skills. Of which, warden only has 3 in animal companions. Green balance does not have a single damage dealing skill in it's lines and has no passive that increases damage in any way.

winter's embrace is based around the element of frost which is part of the destruction school of magic. As such, many of winter's embrace's skills deal frost damage. It was only natural that some morphs in this line, would be repurposed for damage dealing given the lack of space in the rest of the class. In addition some of the passives provided damage increases too. Sure, tanks need to deal some damage too, however their morphs do not focus on it. Winter's Revenge and Arctic Blast are not made for tanks given their scaling while their opposite morphs are. Gripping Shards scales from health but it roots enemies while polar wind heals a lot based on health but does no damage and instead gives that healing to an ally that is nearby.

When you look at the passives and the morphs we have access to within winter's embrace, it showcases that the skill line is BOTH a tanking line and a damage line.

Nowhere is said that game should have a frost class that can fight using only frost skills.
On my warden tank (36k hp, normal dlc dungeons) i use winters revenge for convenience, with ice staff (43% more damage) i can do some AOE damage.
Arctic blast is clearly a PvP skill due to its stun.

I never said you should use only frost damage skills. You can use whatever morph you like on your tank because you can slot anything. But winter's revenge and arctic blast output high damage for damage dealers. Arctic Blast isn't just a pvp skill, it has guarenteed chilled proc with a charged staff active which helps it output a ton more dps and 20 seconds of duration. Something it wouldn't need in pvp but does in pve.

NuarBlack

ixthUA wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstly, everyone is able to use skills from world, guilds, alliance war and whatever this is a random argument that has no bearing on the class skill line. None of those skills except for ice comet deal frost damage. Weapon skills and class skills are the only other sources of frost damage skills we have. Yes, bear is a damage skill, but it's an ultimate that you can only press once every 40 seconds or so and isn't very helpful in overland pvp due to it's dumb ai, what i was focusing on were the 5 skills you can slot on each bar and use at any time, your rotational skills. Of which, warden only has 3 in animal companions. Green balance does not have a single damage dealing skill in it's lines and has no passive that increases damage in any way.

winter's embrace is based around the element of frost which is part of the destruction school of magic. As such, many of winter's embrace's skills deal frost damage. It was only natural that some morphs in this line, would be repurposed for damage dealing given the lack of space in the rest of the class. In addition some of the passives provided damage increases too. Sure, tanks need to deal some damage too, however their morphs do not focus on it. Winter's Revenge and Arctic Blast are not made for tanks given their scaling while their opposite morphs are. Gripping Shards scales from health but it roots enemies while polar wind heals a lot based on health but does no damage and instead gives that healing to an ally that is nearby.

When you look at the passives and the morphs we have access to within winter's embrace, it showcases that the skill line is BOTH a tanking line and a damage line.

Nowhere is said that game should have a frost class that can fight using only frost skills.
On my warden tank (36k hp, normal dlc dungeons) i use winters revenge for convenience, with ice staff (43% more damage) i can do some AOE damage.
Arctic blast is clearly a PvP skill due to its stun.

Well since piercing cold rework I'd disagree. Every classes damage passive kinda tells you what they are supposed to be damage type wise. They removed the magic damage increase and the damage increase for slotting animal companion skills and pigeon holed all damage increases to the passive piercing cold, which is in the "tank" tree.

There are also numerous light armor sets that boost or specifically interact with frost damage. Last I checked you don't tank in light armor(at least since the CP rework).

ixthUA

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I never said you should use only frost damage skills. You can use whatever morph you like on your tank because you can slot anything. But winter's revenge and arctic blast output high damage for damage dealers. Arctic Blast isn't just a pvp skill, it has guarenteed chilled proc with a charged staff active which helps it output a ton more dps and 20 seconds of duration. Something it wouldn't need in pvp but does in pve.

Arctic Blast is very inconvenient due to its limited range, which isnt a problem in pvp. I guess you can still get all of its damage on a target dummy.
Winters revenge gets full damage with an ice staff, which mostly tanks use.

ixthUA

NuarBlack wrote: »

Well since piercing cold rework I'd disagree. Every classes damage passive kinda tells you what they are supposed to be damage type wise. They removed the magic damage increase and the damage increase for slotting animal companion skills and pigeon holed all damage increases to the passive piercing cold, which is in the "tank" tree.

There are also numerous light armor sets that boost or specifically interact with frost damage. Last I checked you don't tank in light armor(at least since the CP rework).

DD tree of wardens (animals) gets critical damage increase per skill slotted, and none of them deal frost damage. This is clearly a DD tree for a tri-role DLC class.
Despite having passives for certain damage types, players use all kinds of weapons and damage types, regardless of class. Not matching damage/weapon to class passive does not mean low DPS.
There are many kinds of weird armor sets, like heavy attacking medium armor sets.

ESO_Nightingale

ixthUA wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I never said you should use only frost damage skills. You can use whatever morph you like on your tank because you can slot anything. But winter's revenge and arctic blast output high damage for damage dealers. Arctic Blast isn't just a pvp skill, it has guarenteed chilled proc with a charged staff active which helps it output a ton more dps and 20 seconds of duration. Something it wouldn't need in pvp but does in pve.

Arctic Blast is very inconvenient due to its limited range, which isnt a problem in pvp. I guess you can still get all of its damage on a target dummy.
Winters revenge gets full damage with an ice staff, which mostly tanks use.

Arctic blast's melee range isn't a problem in raid environments. You generally play in a melee stack anyway. Tanks usually save barspace for more useful group utility as winter's revenge only offers aoe brittle uptime. While it's not like you can't use it, these 2 morphs are dps morphs. And the damage increasing passives help with that. It's both a damage and a tanking line.

ChubaNinja

Nearly nobody has bothered to vote let alone comment, it shows how far behind warden is in terms of identity and playability compared to the other classes 😪