Are Redguards just gonna be hopeless forever?

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD

Coming across a Redguard player in this game is a rare sight these days, and it isn't hard to see why when you look at just how underwhelming their passives are in comparison.

Since the racial passive overhaul in 2016, they were dealt a bad hand and basically nothing has been done since to change this predicament or give them useful passives in the game's current climate.

PvE Perspective:

For DPS, sustain at the moment is not difficult to maintain, so Redguards' passives become largely irrelevant and they are massively overshadowed by dunmer/altmer/orc with their additional 258 weap/spell damage, especially now that proc sets like relequen and pillar of nirn scale off of maximum damage stat, and khajiit with their 12% additional crit damage (though I will mention that this bonus was hurt with the introduction of crit damage cap, and is probably not as useful in an organized trial group).

For healers, sustain does become relevant, but Breton is the obvious winner in this regard due to their magicka recovery bonus, on top of the 7% reduced cost to ALL magicka skills. Imperial comes in at a close second, with 6% reduction to ALL skills including core combat abilities and ultimates, and some might argue that the ability to pop a warhorn or barrier sooner puts them above Breton in terms of value for healer role. Even though a Redguard healer could make some use of the reduced weapon skill cost passive when spamming combat prayer/illustrious/radiating regen, it simply does not compare to what another race can give.

Likewise with tanks, sustain is important, but Redguard hardly contends for a top spot. While Adrenaline Rush allows them to recover stamina while blocking, it ONLY recovers stamina, and most if not all classes' utility/healing skills for tanks are magicka based, so races like Imperial or Argonian which offer sustain for all resource pools are better in that regard. In terms of buffing the group, Nord and Imperial with their ultigen/ult cost reduction make better selfless tanks for more organized groups, and Redguard just cannot compete.

PvP Perspective:

Sustain is a very important factor for staying alive in PvP, so in theory Redguard should be good in this area of the game, right? Wrong.

PvP combat does not consist of two players parsing away a rotation on each other until one dies. A GOOD chunk of time is spent running around, LOSing and avoiding taking damage while you're being chased by one or multiple enemies. Adrenaline Rush becomes practically useless in such a scenario, because when you're running away you aren't hitting your enemy, therefore you aren't getting the stamina recovery from that passive. In a situation where you're picking a race for stamina sustain, Wood Elf is far superior because they get an actual bonus to the recovery stat which works great whether on the offense or defense, in addition to some additional pen and speed which is always useful in pvp. For sustain in general, Imperial is, as before, incredibly strong in pvp with reduced cost to ALL skills + ult + roll dodge + block. Redguard, once more, is left in the dust.

To add insult to injury, Redguard is literally the SQUISHIEST race in the game: High elves get reduced damage taken when using a channeled skill, Argonians get max health along with poison and disease resistance, Wood elves get fall damage reduction as well as poison and disease resistance, Bretons get spell resistance, Dark elves get flame resistance, Khajiit get max health and health recovery, Nords get max health, frost/physical/and spell resistance, Orcs get max health and a small heal proc, and Imperials get max health.

What do Redguards get? Snare resistance.

No survivability passive, zero damage bonuses to compensate, niche and underwhelming sustain passives. What's a Redguard to do?

KlauthWarthog

Considering the changes to the champion system, and all the other deep balance changes since the last racial changes, I think we are due for another pass on racial passives balance.
Hybridization has made sustain passives obsolete for DPS, the critical damage cap has made Khajiit's signature racial obsolete, the changes to the champion system and proc set magnitude scaling have made +mag/+stam significantly less useful, just to name a few points.

BlueRaven

The racial passives do need a rework. There are definite winners and losers with the passives.

But I have given up hope that they will remedy it.

SilverBride

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

By far this would be the simplest remedy, although given the response to similar suggestions on other threads, I'm not sure how much it'd be favored by the playerbase. It would certainly save ZOS a balancing headache though.

7 years have passed since the 2016 racial passive reboot, and only minor tweaks have been made since then, how much longer do we have to put up with bottom of the barrel passives?

Auzsi

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

Because zos thinks racial passives are the main reason players buying race change tokens. They adds nothing to the game, they don't make races feels different, they don't make character creation or the game more complex and lots of them don't make sense based on lore. Only thing they does is creating a meta and pressure players to change their race. No idea how this can be considered a healthy game design.

SilverBride

Auzsi wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

Because zos thinks racial passives are the main reason players buying race change tokens.

The only time I ever bought a race change token was because I had tried to play an Orc but just couldn't identify with the character. So I did it for cosmetic reasons.

But I find having racial passives to be an outdated concept that has no place in a game.

Mesite

I have a couple of Redguards left over from when they were the flavour of the month. They look after my spare armour. They are waiting for when Stamina regen is needed.

WoppaBoem

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

Because its fun and races have unique qualities that are made to shine and have an impact how a character plays, just like it has in real life

Liguar

SilverBride wrote: »

The only time I ever bought a race change token was because I had tried to play an Orc but just couldn't identify with the character. So I did it for cosmetic reasons.

But I find having racial passives to be an outdated concept that has no place in a game.

I agree.

I want to build characters by whim and aesthetic. The passives are just something I try to not care about since they probably don't affect me anyway. I'd hate to be an endgame-focused person that felt they had to factor such things into race choices though. Bleargh boring.

I have a Redguard because I thought it would fit a DK nicely, and she does look very spiffy in my opinion! Then I had the idea that the firebreath would look really awesome on an Argonian, but I know the price of those tokens, and I decided that Redguard firebreath looks awesome enough for me.

Edit: if it's all financially motivated then I would also assume a rebalance would incentivize a fair few people to buy tokens to live out their best RP life.

Auzsi

WoppaBoem wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

Because its fun and races have unique qualities that are made to shine and have an impact how a character plays, just like it has in real life

I assure you it's everything but fun if you are at the short end of the stick with your favourite race. And that's not how it works in real life. isn't it called racism btw?

Necrotech_Master

my main pvp toon is a stamblade redguard lol, been working out good for me for years lol

SilverBride

WoppaBoem wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

Because its fun and races have unique qualities that are made to shine and have an impact how a character plays, just like it has in real life

It's frustrating when a player wants to play a certain class but can't be the race they'd like because they would never be as good as another race.

(edited by poster to condense)

ItsNotLiving

I play high elf on my stamina characters, still better than redguard.

SilentFox22

I was just thinking about rolling a Redguard recently, but their passives are bottom of the barrel now with all the game changes since the last racial passives rework. Surely this is a mistake given the political complications around racism in the real world and it just needs to be brought to the attention of the developers. I’m not sure who to tag @ZOS though for this.

Personally, I’d be fine with them doing away with the passives altogether. I’m tired of seeing the same three races being the best choice for all the classes.

valenwood_vegan

I'm all for doing something about the passives to allow players to choose whatever race they prefer... I have, like others, never rolled a Redguard because their passives are just bottom of the barrel.

But please lets be careful and not suggest just getting rid of them. That is the type of quick and easy "way out" that seems to be a preferred solution to many problems lately. Simply getting rid of the passives would result in a not insubstantial nerf to all characters - we've had enough nerfs lately IMHO.

Lets push Zos to rebalance by *BUFFING THE RACES WITH WORSE PASSIVES*, or perhaps by allowing players to choose their passives separately from their race (and if giving too much freedom of choice would result in balance problems, restrict the choice to defined combinations of passives).

Rematin

Completely agree, we need another racial rework asap!

TKo_ROUSE

I would like to see some buffs to some of the races. I would utilize bosmer, breton and redguards if there passives were good.

As an endgamer though you are kind of shoe horned into certain classes.

6 dps one of each class all dark elf.
2 nord tank
2 breton healers (although at this point dark elf is probably just better, i just have them if i am really desparate to make a run go)

In one of my cores our tank actually had to race change from Argonian to Nord so we could get him enough ult get to perm magma shell to get swashbuckler supreme. The difference it made was astronimcal. Keeping the reefs stacked probably increased group dps by 30%+. After we got it he did race change back though!

With that said if you aren't pushing tri's race doesn't matter a ton. I just hope they don't nuke dark elf to make people race change all their classes again though. Some kind of passive pick system would be good. Like you get 6 passives to choose from and you can enable 3 of them.

ADarklore

Racial passives have such a minor impact on overall gameplay, which is probably why ZOS hasn't updated them in so long. Too many people believe the hype of streamers regarding passive selections, when the reality is, you can be just as successful with ANY race. I pick a race based upon my character concept, NOT on what the passives bring. Most of my characters are Breton or Imperial because I prefer the look.

EramTheLiar

Auzsi wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

Because zos thinks racial passives are the main reason players buying race change tokens. They adds nothing to the game, they don't make races feels different, they don't make character creation or the game more complex and lots of them don't make sense based on lore. Only thing they does is creating a meta and pressure players to change their race. No idea how this can be considered a healthy game design.

I know this comment was made days ago, and it's therefore basically thread necromancy due to that being about 20 years when converted to internet time, but this isn't why there are racial passives and bonuses in the game. The reason there are racial passives and bonuses in the game is because it's part of the Elder Scrolls gameplay. At least since Morrowind (I haven't played any Elder Scrolls games pre-Morrowind so I can't comment on those) the race you choose gives you some kind of perk or bonus. Zenimax adopted this for pretty much the same reason your character starts out as a prisoner in all of the old intro areas: it's an Elder Scrolls thing.

Personally, from a purely game perspective, taking out the racial bonuses would be smart. ON THE OTHER HAND if they did there would be such an outcry over Zenimax abandoning Elder Scrolls Lore, don't even tell me it wouldn't happen because all of you know it would absolutely happen.

[tangent] To illustrate what I mean, I'm kind of annoyed with the starting area, lore-wise, because you don't REALLY wake up a prisoner. The elf just put you there because she didn't know what you'd do when you woke up. That's not really the same thing! [/tangent]

danno8

Instead of the 8% decrease in weapon skill cost I would suggest:

Increase crit chance with all weapon abilities by 2%.
(At crit cap this would be around 4.5% increase in overall damage which is a bit more than the 258 WD/SD that other races get (after Major and Minor buffs are applied and assuming around 70/30 split on WD/SD:Max resource), but applying it to only weapon abilities would reel in the benefit. )

or

Increase crit chance with all damaging abilities by 1.5%
(This would increase the usability to the same level as the WD/SD bonus for other races but scaled back to be roughly on par damage wise)

jirusan

I think that in today's eso, racial passives limit what you can do with the armory system, which is a pity.

I would prefer to have 6 (or soon 7) fully developed characters rather than forgettable adds with the bare minimum skillpoints to raid.

I wouldn't mind if they disappeared or made configurable with the armory to switch roles.

StarOfElyon

Liguar wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The only time I ever bought a race change token was because I had tried to play an Orc but just couldn't identify with the character. So I did it for cosmetic reasons.

But I find having racial passives to be an outdated concept that has no place in a game.

I agree.

I want to build characters by whim and aesthetic. The passives are just something I try to not care about since they probably don't affect me anyway. I'd hate to be an endgame-focused person that felt they had to factor such things into race choices though. Bleargh boring.

I have a Redguard because I thought it would fit a DK nicely, and she does look very spiffy in my opinion! Then I had the idea that the firebreath would look really awesome on an Argonian, but I know the price of those tokens, and I decided that Redguard firebreath looks awesome enough for me.

Edit: if it's all financially motivated then I would also assume a rebalance would incentivize a fair few people to buy tokens to live out their best RP life.

I made a hybrid Redguard for RP reasons but I play her in all content. That was before all the hybridization changes, btw. I have been asking for buffs and suggesting buffs for a while.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Basically:

#1. Wayfarer passive should increase the stats of food or drink by x%

#2. Martial Training should boost weapon traits as suggested on the forums before.

3. Adrenaline Rush should give stamina when doing any type of damage, not just direct damage. It should also restore stamina when taking damage, reinforcing their reputation for endurance.

You should watch the video below to get a better feel for the reasoning behind my proposal.

https://youtu.be/VH34jFhLPHI

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Liguar wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

The only time I ever bought a race change token was because I had tried to play an Orc but just couldn't identify with the character. So I did it for cosmetic reasons.

But I find having racial passives to be an outdated concept that has no place in a game.

I agree.

I want to build characters by whim and aesthetic. The passives are just something I try to not care about since they probably don't affect me anyway. I'd hate to be an endgame-focused person that felt they had to factor such things into race choices though. Bleargh boring.

I have a Redguard because I thought it would fit a DK nicely, and she does look very spiffy in my opinion! Then I had the idea that the firebreath would look really awesome on an Argonian, but I know the price of those tokens, and I decided that Redguard firebreath looks awesome enough for me.

Edit: if it's all financially motivated then I would also assume a rebalance would incentivize a fair few people to buy tokens to live out their best RP life.

I made a hybrid Redguard for RP reasons but I play her in all content. That was before all the hybridization changes, btw. I have been asking for buffs and suggesting buffs for a while.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Basically:

#1. Wayfarer passive should increase the stats of food or drink by x%

#2. Martial Training should boost weapon traits as suggested on the forums before.

3. Adrenaline Rush should give stamina when doing any type of damage, not just direct damage. It should also restore stamina when taking damage, reinforcing their reputation for endurance.

You should watch the video below to get a better feel for the reasoning behind my proposal.

https://youtu.be/VH34jFhLPHI

I agree wholeheartedly on your points 2 and 3. I'm fine with the Wayfarer passive remaining as is due it being the first 'flavor' passive that isn't really meant to have much impact on gameplay.

The Heartland Conqueror type buff that has been discussed before is definitely my favorite suggestion to make them viable AND it goes really well with hybridization since it would be effective for any roles.

Daedralist

SilverBride wrote: »

WoppaBoem wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know why there are racial passives in a game anyway. All races should be equal in their abilities to be any class the player chooses.

Because its fun and races have unique qualities that are made to shine and have an impact how a character plays, just like it has in real life

It's not fun when a player wants to play a certain class but can't be the race they'd like because they would never be as good as another race. This sends a very bad message and needs to change. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

ESO is an MMORPG. RPGs have have race and class differences. That's a huge point. Tamriel races are different from each other and the lore dictates such.

I do agree that the passives should change, however it should be changed to reflect the lore.
Example: A high elf having Stam Regen makes no sense.

This is my opinion on it.

the1andonlyskwex

Based on what's happened in the past, I don't think ZOS will ever mess with racial balance again. Even the tiniest tweak to racial balance almost immediately results in most people on these forums screaming about pay-to-win and demanding free race change tokens. It's just not worth the hassle when doing nothing only produces a few low engagement "buff Argonians" and "buff Redguards" threads per year.

That experience is also why there will never be class change tokens. There's no way ZOS wants to deal with those types of reactions every time they mess with class balance too.

sneakymitchell

Best stop complain and at least each race got its own identity. Go play ff14 if you want something so nondivirse. I played it I got bored real quick if you done all endgame content. No point in making builds just slot best gear and button mash rotations. Reason why I like eso combat than ff14 even if it bugs out but it’s the best combat compared to black desert.

Stx

ADarklore wrote: »

Racial passives have such a minor impact on overall gameplay, which is probably why ZOS hasn't updated them in so long. Too many people believe the hype of streamers regarding passive selections, when the reality is, you can be just as successful with ANY race. I pick a race based upon my character concept, NOT on what the passives bring. Most of my characters are Breton or Imperial because I prefer the look.

Minor? 2k stamina / magicka and 258 damage isn’t minor. That’s 4.5 item slots worth of stats…

The actual reality is, switching from Breton to dark elf for a stamina build will improve your dps by 7-8%. Not just for top end players.. for everyone.

The argument.. “You CAN do all content on any race” isn’t useful. You CAN do all content wearing no pants. But like, we all wear pants when doing content right?

Roylund

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Based on what's happened in the past, I don't think ZOS will ever mess with racial balance again. Even the tiniest tweak to racial balance almost immediately results in most people on these forums screaming about pay-to-win and demanding free race change tokens. It's just not worth the hassle when doing nothing only produces a few low engagement "buff Argonians" and "buff Redguards" threads per year.

That experience is also why there will never be class change tokens. There's no way ZOS wants to deal with those types of reactions every time they mess with class balance too.

I wasn't around the last time they did racial changes. Did they give away a bunch of race change tokens to everyone? I figured any changes they might've made would not have moved tier lists around as much (except I guess Redguards got majorly shafted).

Faulgor

They adjusted Argonians at some point by giving them 1k Stamina, so some changes to Redguards aren't out of the question.

the1andonlyskwex

Roylund wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Based on what's happened in the past, I don't think ZOS will ever mess with racial balance again. Even the tiniest tweak to racial balance almost immediately results in most people on these forums screaming about pay-to-win and demanding free race change tokens. It's just not worth the hassle when doing nothing only produces a few low engagement "buff Argonians" and "buff Redguards" threads per year.

That experience is also why there will never be class change tokens. There's no way ZOS wants to deal with those types of reactions every time they mess with class balance too.

I wasn't around the last time they did racial changes. Did they give away a bunch of race change tokens to everyone? I figured any changes they might've made would not have moved tier lists around as much (except I guess Redguards got majorly shafted).

At some point they made big changes (that completely changed what roles a couple of races were good for) and after people freaked out they gave everyone 3 race change tokens.

Then, a year or two later they made smaller changes that tweaked the ordering of the top few DPS races and the forums demanded tokens again, but ZOS wasn't as generous (probably because the changes were so small they didn't really affect anyone who didn't insist on playing the absolute highest parsing race for their build).