BRP DW and Vate 2h PTS Changes

Lortie

"Ability Altering Weapons
Frenzied Momentum and Spectral Cloak: These sets will now only apply their effects if you cast their respective ability requirements while in combat."


This change significantly limits these sets usability in PvP, making you need to consciously track weather your in combat or not and recasting said buffs. Best case; essentially punishing you for pre-casting your buffs in PvP, which is extremely counter-intuitive to how PvP is played. Or worse case; making certain combos no longer possible in specific PvP situations.

I'm guessing this change is an attempt to fix a niche situation of pre-casting these augmented buffs in trials and quick-swapping with addons back to their original setups to gain a minor damage buff for the first 20 seconds of the fight.

Although, going through top logs on multiple fights, I could not find an instance of this being logged. Either esologs is filtering these parses out or hardly anyone actually does this.

This cannot be a significant enough issue to noticeably nerf these sets in PvP situations. Especially when you consider these are not the first choices for many builds.

Even if this is an issue that NEEDS to be addressed right now. There has to be a better way of going about it, like adding some sort of "Are you wearing the set" check instead of a combat check which undermines the sets actual functionality.

Lykeion

Totally agree with you. But I worry that dev's purpose is to remove the prebuff ability of both weapons, rather than prebuff+switch.

DrNukenstein

*bump*

I remember like a few patches ago they unpaired frenzied stacks from the momentum buff so that players using this item could keep their stacks and keep generating stacks if momentum falls off.

While that was very generous QOL, it's probably why it's possible for these fellow players in PVE to get a little extra wd/sd. On behalf of all the frenzied momentum masters I propose reverting that quality of life buff instead of making frenzied only start generating stacks when you cast it in combat.

Beyond that, keeping your momentum going should be a mechanic of the set punished by failure to keep that momentum up. It just makes more sense than adding a janky rule requiring you to cast the buff in combat before you can start getting stacks.

BahometZ

I don't know why devs spend their precious time on these marginal balance changes that fix something that isn't broken, and currently function in a reliable way, when there are countless balance issues with countless other sets, skills and passives. Nobody wants this change. It's annoying and unhelpful. People precast all sorts of skills that stick to the player, solar barrage, flames of oblivion, radiating regen, etc., we shouldn't have to waste a GCD just to enable an inbuilt function of a set. Please walk this back, and stop twiddling with irrelevant knobs.

Lortie

Agreed. please walk this back.

Ratzkifal

Elfbane. There is no reason for that set to not be active at all times. Why would the first ability you cast in combat not get that extra duration bonus? It messes everything up. But no, because you could use addons to equip elfbane, drop your fire destro ult and then use addons to unequip the set for your actual parse sets before the first tic of damage hit it is now only active while in combat.

[snip]
[edited for minor bashing]

DrNukenstein

Sure sounds like the real problem is gear swap addons and macros, that sounds like a much more productive thing to make not work anymore.

SkaraMinoc

@Lortie 100% agree

I posted about it on Day 1 of PTS and nobody responded.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/631686/whats-with-the-wonky-change-to-spectral-cloak-not-working-unless-quick-cloak-was-cast-in-combat#latest

The change to BRP DW Spectral Cloak is a reduction in quality of life. It's also bugged as explained here.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam

This change adds extra cognitive tracking for players. Imagine you're excited to enter combat and fight something only to have to stop and go "wait did I remember to cast Quick Cloak after entering combat?" Not fun.

Many brawler type melee builds, including Stam Sorcs, use this in PvP and will be negatively impacted by this change.

SkaraMinoc

Lortie wrote: »

This change significantly limits these sets usability in PvP, making you need to consciously track weather your in combat or not and recasting said buffs. Best case; essentially punishing you for pre-casting your buffs in PvP, which is extremely counter-intuitive to how PvP is played. Or worse case; making certain combos no longer possible in specific PvP situations.

This is accurate.

It also makes Spectral Cloak useless in Overland questing because it's not worth wasting a global cooldown casting Quick Cloak once you're in combat fighting mobs that only have 30k health.

Galeriano

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Sure sounds like the real problem is gear swap addons and macros, that sounds like a much more productive thing to make not work anymore.

Well, quick cloak lasts so long that even by using it manually You can still get if for like 20 seconds.

SkaraMinoc

Lortie wrote: »

I'm guessing this change is an attempt to fix a niche situation of pre-casting these augmented buffs in trials and quick-swapping with addons back to their original setups to gain a minor damage buff for the first 20 seconds of the fight.

They should check if the Spectral Cloak set is equipped when the proc goes off. If not, then don't give the player the effect.

Runefang

Fiddling while Rome burns. Fix actual problems next time please.

AlwaysDancing

So the "stuck in combat" bug is good now?

Lortie

AlwaysDancing wrote: »

So the "stuck in combat" bug is good now?

Kinda unironically ya lol

SkaraMinoc

Tested latest PTS and nothing changed. Tracking whether Quick Cloak was cast in combat is not something we should have to worry about. I'm seriously considering writing an addon for myself as a workaround for this new bug feature.

taugrim

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Lortie wrote: »

I'm guessing this change is an attempt to fix a niche situation of pre-casting these augmented buffs in trials and quick-swapping with addons back to their original setups to gain a minor damage buff for the first 20 seconds of the fight.

They should check if the Spectral Cloak set is equipped when the proc goes off. If not, then don't give the player the effect.

This is a vastly superior solution.

Having to get into combat, then rebuff, is a lame combat experience.

"BRB guys I have to apply my buffs"

Naftal

I really hope they make all sets and buffs work when you cast them outside of combat.

Make it so if you change any skills or gear you'll lose all active gear and skill buffs and all your ground aoes etc.

Jammy420

Lortie wrote: »

"Ability Altering Weapons
Frenzied Momentum and Spectral Cloak: These sets will now only apply their effects if you cast their respective ability requirements while in combat."


This change significantly limits these sets usability in PvP, making you need to consciously track weather your in combat or not and recasting said buffs. Best case; essentially punishing you for pre-casting your buffs in PvP, which is extremely counter-intuitive to how PvP is played. Or worse case; making certain combos no longer possible in specific PvP situations.

I'm guessing this change is an attempt to fix a niche situation of pre-casting these augmented buffs in trials and quick-swapping with addons back to their original setups to gain a minor damage buff for the first 20 seconds of the fight.

Although, going through top logs on multiple fights, I could not find an instance of this being logged. Either esologs is filtering these parses out or hardly anyone actually does this.

This cannot be a significant enough issue to noticeably nerf these sets in PvP situations. Especially when you consider these are not the first choices for many builds.

Even if this is an issue that NEEDS to be addressed right now. There has to be a better way of going about it, like adding some sort of "Are you wearing the set" check instead of a combat check which undermines the sets actual functionality.

Oh noooo, the most broken cheese builds will be difficult to use now. : laughs in clever alchemist :

Lortie

Jammy420 wrote: »

Oh noooo, the most broken cheese builds will be difficult to use now. : laughs in clever alchemist :

Idk if i'd say Vate 2h or BRP DW are broken cheese builds. They're pretty underused.

Jammy420

Lortie wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

Oh noooo, the most broken cheese builds will be difficult to use now. : laughs in clever alchemist :

Idk if i'd say Vate 2h or BRP DW are broken cheese builds. They're pretty underused.

Come to grayhost , its either swirly black hole dks, gankblades, or vate / master dual wield speedy stamsorcs. Its a rare sight to see any other build in cyro right now. All of which are legit playstyles, but are extremely overused specifically because of the broken aspect. Build creativity and diversity is all but dead in cyro.

Razorruk

Lortie wrote: »

"Ability Altering Weapons

Although, going through top logs on multiple fights, I could not find an instance of this being logged. Either esologs is filtering these parses out or hardly anyone actually does this.

Private logs

CameraBeardThePirate

A straightforward solution that would prevent further cases like this from popping up would be to kill any active duration skill when you swap gear. It would only affect those trying to use gear swap binds to their advantage.

acastanza_ESO

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

A straightforward solution that would prevent further cases like this from popping up would be to kill any active duration skill when you swap gear. It would only affect those trying to use gear swap binds to their advantage.

The fact that it isn't this way already is absolutely baffling to me. If you unslot a piece of gear, it should remove any effects that were granted by it. Full stop.

DrNukenstein

I can't imagine dispelling active skill and set effects when changing gear is any more difficult (code wise) than identifying sets being used in this niche and unintended way and then programming those specific sets to only work in combat. In fact it's probably even easier, idk though because I'm not a dev. It just sounds like a much easier idea to do, and a more effective solution for solving the problem.

As a bonus, any complaints of such an approach would probably be pretty entertaining.

Zastrix

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

A straightforward solution that would prevent further cases like this from popping up would be to kill any active duration skill when you swap gear. It would only affect those trying to use gear swap binds to their advantage.

And then totally kill all of the arena weapons as it's better to just run 5+5+2 or 5+5+1+1? Yeah, nawe.

CameraBeardThePirate

Zastrix wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

A straightforward solution that would prevent further cases like this from popping up would be to kill any active duration skill when you swap gear. It would only affect those trying to use gear swap binds to their advantage.

And then totally kill all of the arena weapons as it's better to just run 5+5+2 or 5+5+1+1? Yeah, nawe.

What? My proposal wouldn't affect arena weapons at all.

I'm saying that if you unequip a piece of gear completely (not swapping bars - actually taking the item off) any active duration ability should be cancelled. The whole reason ZOS made this change was to prevent people from buffing with the Arena weapon before a fight and then using a bind to equip a different set, gaining both the arena buff as well as whatever set bonus they put on.

Zastrix

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Zastrix wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

A straightforward solution that would prevent further cases like this from popping up would be to kill any active duration skill when you swap gear. It would only affect those trying to use gear swap binds to their advantage.

And then totally kill all of the arena weapons as it's better to just run 5+5+2 or 5+5+1+1? Yeah, nawe.

What? My proposal wouldn't affect arena weapons at all.

I'm saying that if you unequip a piece of gear completely (not swapping bars - actually taking the item off) any active duration ability should be cancelled. The whole reason ZOS made this change was to prevent people from buffing with the Arena weapon before a fight and then using a bind to equip a different set, gaining both the arena buff as well as whatever set bonus they put on.

Oh my bad then, sorry! Saying swap just means 'swapping bars' in my head automatically. I didn't think of changing your sets/gear altogether.