excessive tanking is ruining ToT

Heelie

As ToT is currently implemented in the game, there is no punishment for excessive tanking, (using your full time), this means that players often take minutes for decisions that are often singular, or with no move at all. I personally did some experiments, going out of my way to excessively tank every turn. I had a 66% win rate on my opponent surrendering alone, 40/60, this is compared to around ish 25% before I went out of my way to excessively tank. So a free 41% win rate. In total I won 50/60 games so around 83% win rate. While this is a small data set, what I think is important to take from it, is that most players would rather lose a game than wait out excessive tanking.

From this it is obvious that we need some model for punishing tanking, there are a lot of models for this, from a clock, to time cards etc ( you get five 1 min time extension per game or so). But as ToT is now, the best way to get a good win rate is just to tilt your opponent by tanking.

I personally think the best option is to just make the ranked mode a speed mode where tanking is punished, for example having a clock and finite time for a game. And keep the normal modes as they are for learning. But something needs to be done.

LunaFlora

sometimes people need time to think about what to do in games

you can always concede if you dont want to play with someone

Heelie

LunaFlora wrote: »

sometimes people need time to think about what to do in games

you can always concede if you dont want to play with someone

If a person has only one choice do they really need two minutes to think about it?

Dr_Con

it's kind of silly that in this MMO that rewards you for fast reaction times, that you can implement a discount Gwent minigame where players take longer than chess per turn.

IMO shorten the timer to 30 seconds or the player's turn gets skipped (or do some sort of timer decay if they keep taking longer than 30s), and enable animation skipping. These are the two QOL and balancing changes that the minigame needs.

SpacemanSpiff1

i can be a tank in ToT? maybe ill try it out

LunaFlora

Heelie wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

sometimes people need time to think about what to do in games

you can always concede if you dont want to play with someone

If a person has only one choice do they really need two minutes to think about it?

maybe in that case not no. but I'd rather have two minutes than have 30 seconds when in most turns i can do more

Saint-Ange

here's 30 mn of Relaxing Elevator Music for us who never know what acronyms mean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byvlm-D4Mg

Dr_Con

Saint-Ange wrote: »

here's 30 mn of Relaxing Elevator Music for us who never know what acronyms mean

Acronyms used in this topic:
ToT- Tales of Tribute
IMO - In my opinion
MMO - massively multiplayer online game
QOL - Quality of Life

Saint-Ange

thank you!

fleetingyouth_ESO

I understand why a lot of casual users or players that dont play other card games dislike the timer. However, in most card games it is always recommended to take the full amount of time. It has nothing to do with only having a single move because I guarantee you that is not true. Are you as a player looking at your opponent's cards each turn? Are you trying to track their card pulls and what they might draw into on the next couple of turns?

Having a plan for your next move and then following up with it quickly on your turn can lead to mistakes or miscalculations. Slowing down is the first thing pro's of games like hearthstone or MTG will suggest. Making quick decisions can lead to missed opportunities and mistakes. You have a timer, all that time is yours to use by design. So you should use it.

Do I think some players miss use it sometimes? Probably people always abuse things but I don't think a lot of players are using it as a strategy to get you to quit. Maybe in the lower-tier casual, I don't play there but certainly not at the mid-upper tier ladders. Its not a good strategy in ranked. Players don't want game losses as it takes a lot of game wins to get to the top 100. Quitting out of frustration because a player is taking to long is not going to be common.

Now though I don't personally think you should I do know a lot of players on the ladder will quit a game once they feel they can not win in order to move on to the next faster. Perhaps this is something you are seeing occasionally.

At the end of the day, matches in almost all card games can be lengthy, it's a separate game. Sure ToT is in ESO but if you're playing it you should be expecting to give up that amount of time to play the game regardless of whether the other player uses all their time or not.

You want to punish players for your perceived use of their time and while some players may be abusing it as you state others are not and changing the timer will have more negative effects on the game.

Heelie

fleetingyouth_ESO wrote: »

I understand why a lot of casual users or players that dont play other card games dislike the timer. However, in most card games it is always recommended to take the full amount of time. It has nothing to do with only having a single move because I guarantee you that is not true. Are you as a player looking at your opponent's cards each turn? Are you trying to track their card pulls and what they might draw into on the next couple of turns?

Having a plan for your next move and then following up with it quickly on your turn can lead to mistakes or miscalculations. Slowing down is the first thing pro's of games like hearthstone or MTG will suggest. Making quick decisions can lead to missed opportunities and mistakes. You have a timer, all that time is yours to use by design. So you should use it.

Do I think some players miss use it sometimes? Probably people always abuse things but I don't think a lot of players are using it as a strategy to get you to quit. Maybe in the lower-tier casual, I don't play there but certainly not at the mid-upper tier ladders. Its not a good strategy in ranked. Players don't want game losses as it takes a lot of game wins to get to the top 100. Quitting out of frustration because a player is taking to long is not going to be common.

Now though I don't personally think you should I do know a lot of players on the ladder will quit a game once they feel they can not win in order to move on to the next faster. Perhaps this is something you are seeing occasionally.

At the end of the day, matches in almost all card games can be lengthy, it's a separate game. Sure ToT is in ESO but if you're playing it you should be expecting to give up that amount of time to play the game regardless of whether the other player uses all their time or not.

You want to punish players for your perceived use of their time and while some players may be abusing it as you state others are not and changing the timer will have more negative effects on the game.

Love the assumption that I am a bad player, I have been consisently getting the top 10% and 2% bonuses on the PC EU server. ToT is not really a game of skill, taking GTO decisions takes a few seconds, so even in draw heavy turns you wont need all the time. Especially in the first 10 turns there's no excuse to letting the clock run. I think a speed version, even if in a separate queue is really needed. Being able to play fast is also a skill.

Vevvev

Sees my opponent "tanking".

Jokes on you, I didn't come into this match for a quick game.

emilyhyoyeon

maybe the turn timer could be dynamic based on something like how many cards have left the tavern pile.

80% or more of cards still in tavern: 30sec timer
between 80-60%: 1min timer
60-40%: 1min 30sec timer

etc. I don't know if those numbers are good but some system like that might help.

festegios

In these circumstances I pick up my book and start reading, I make sure I don’t have any moves left to go, then contemplate my opponents cards whilst I read then end my turn with a few seconds left: I think I’ve gotten to a 45 minute match before….

spartaxoxo

I made this video a long time when people would also concede to mess with your daily back when they were bugged. But it's a good example of an opponent that tries to tank and then rage quits when it doesn't work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwGqn7MnWRQ

ETA:

It's also a good video because you can see the difference between a long turn where most of the timer is used but things are happening at reasonable intervals and one where the timer is simply being tanked.

Jaimeh

I only play against NPCs, but I think when playing against others, having a long timer makes sense especially for the more strategic games between experienced players, and also helps with accounting for any real life distractions that may happen in the meantime.

virtus753

Dr_Con wrote: »

it's kind of silly that in this MMO that rewards you for fast reaction times, that you can implement a discount Gwent minigame where players take longer than chess per turn.

It makes a great deal of sense to me in context: ToT was introduced as a major chapter feature in a year in which the combat team went to great lengths to disincentivize higher APM across the board. (For example, light attacks were significantly nerfed - they were just recently hard capped as the culmination of that effort - and heavy attack builds were made viable in endgame content.) Lower APM, no matter the activity, means less stress on the servers and a smoother gameplay experience for everyone. Whether the timer needs to be quite as long as it is is another question, but the mechanic of the game as a low-APM activity fits in very well with the general direction of ESO as a whole recently.

SeaGtGruff

First of all, this thread really belongs in the ToT forum, so I expect it will be moved there. What I'm getting at is, maybe next time create a new thread about ToT in the ToT forum so it won't have to be moved there by a mod.

Now, on to my real responses.

I hate the timer, and am soooooo glad there's no timer in the NPC matches (which are the only ones I play anymore, although I've been thinking about playing occasional PvP matches again). You don't know how many times I've been playing ToT with an NPC and had my turn get interrupted and prolonged by having a cat jump up in my lap demanding attention, or getting up to go take an "I can't put it off any longer" BB or grab a beverage or snack, or having to speak to someone in the house or on the phone, etc. When I played what few PvP matches I did play, the timer nearly cut off several of my turns-- and actually did cut off a few of my opponents' turns-- and in all of those cases the players involved (whether myself or my opponent) was in the middle of making actual moves, not merely sitting there trying to troll the other person.

Frankly, I wonder how much timer-trolling there would be if there were no more timer? I mean, what if something else were to be implemented instead, such as sitting still for too long causes both players to get disconnected from the server and have to log in again, and the player whose turn it was when the disconnection occurred gets punished in some way, such as by being made to wait in a login queue before they can get back in, or by having a 15-minute cooldown (or however long a dungeon cooldown usually is) before they can queue for another ToT match? I'm thinking that something like that would probably break most of the timer-trolls of their bad habit, whereas having a timer-- presumably for the purpose of stopping players from being trolls who deliberately take too long for their moves-- actually seems to create a situation that makes timer-trolling possible in the first place.

Aside from IRL interruptions that can prolong ones moves, the game itself has annoying quirks that can eat into the allowed time for ones move, such as being in the middle of playing your cards but then suddenly having to stop and wait for a few seconds while the game finishes animating the opponent's cards being dealt out for their next hand. Or I'll be playing some of my cards and suddenly have to pause for a few seconds to wait for the game to pop up an "acquire (or remove) up to x cards from the tavern" message, or wait for the animation of more cards being drawn to finish, etc. Oddly enough, the game doesn't seem to have such problems with the NPCs' moves, because in almost every NPC match I'm seeing the NPC buy or acquire or remove cards even before the card which is allowing them to do that has even been flipped over and played. It's like the game is multi-threaded or something as far as processing the NPCs' moves, but not when it comes to my moves.

I get that timer-trolling is a thing (because the very existence of the timer actually makes it possible for timer-trolling to be a thing in the first place), but shortening the timer seems like a really horrible idea to me. The idea of having the timer adjust its duration based on circumstances seems like a better idea, like having the timer pause every time the current player's move is interrupted by having to wait for some animation sequence to end, or having an opportunity to acquire or remove cards from the tavern, etc. Either that, or give the game proper multi-threading so the NPCs aren't the only ones who can continue making their moves despite the game needing to go through some animation sequence-- which I think should really be happening at a much faster speed, anyway.

ZOS_Kraken

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

NoSoup

The simple solution is to introduce a patron that rewards players for taking their turn faster than their opponent....

ESO_player123

NoSoup wrote: »

The simple solution is to introduce a patron that rewards players for taking their turn faster than their opponent....

I foresee some players quickly flipping their cards and ending their turn without doing anything.

Heelie

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

First of all, this thread really belongs in the ToT forum, so I expect it will be moved there. What I'm getting at is, maybe next time create a new thread about ToT in the ToT forum so it won't have to be moved there by a mod.

Now, on to my real responses.

I hate the timer, and am soooooo glad there's no timer in the NPC matches (which are the only ones I play anymore, although I've been thinking about playing occasional PvP matches again). You don't know how many times I've been playing ToT with an NPC and had my turn get interrupted and prolonged by having a cat jump up in my lap demanding attention, or getting up to go take an "I can't put it off any longer" BB or grab a beverage or snack, or having to speak to someone in the house or on the phone, etc. When I played what few PvP matches I did play, the timer nearly cut off several of my turns-- and actually did cut off a few of my opponents' turns-- and in all of those cases the players involved (whether myself or my opponent) was in the middle of making actual moves, not merely sitting there trying to troll the other person.

Frankly, I wonder how much timer-trolling there would be if there were no more timer? I mean, what if something else were to be implemented instead, such as sitting still for too long causes both players to get disconnected from the server and have to log in again, and the player whose turn it was when the disconnection occurred gets punished in some way, such as by being made to wait in a login queue before they can get back in, or by having a 15-minute cooldown (or however long a dungeon cooldown usually is) before they can queue for another ToT match? I'm thinking that something like that would probably break most of the timer-trolls of their bad habit, whereas having a timer-- presumably for the purpose of stopping players from being trolls who deliberately take too long for their moves-- actually seems to create a situation that makes timer-trolling possible in the first place.

Aside from IRL interruptions that can prolong ones moves, the game itself has annoying quirks that can eat into the allowed time for ones move, such as being in the middle of playing your cards but then suddenly having to stop and wait for a few seconds while the game finishes animating the opponent's cards being dealt out for their next hand. Or I'll be playing some of my cards and suddenly have to pause for a few seconds to wait for the game to pop up an "acquire (or remove) up to x cards from the tavern" message, or wait for the animation of more cards being drawn to finish, etc. Oddly enough, the game doesn't seem to have such problems with the NPCs' moves, because in almost every NPC match I'm seeing the NPC buy or acquire or remove cards even before the card which is allowing them to do that has even been flipped over and played. It's like the game is multi-threaded or something as far as processing the NPCs' moves, but not when it comes to my moves.

I get that timer-trolling is a thing (because the very existence of the timer actually makes it possible for timer-trolling to be a thing in the first place), but shortening the timer seems like a really horrible idea to me. The idea of having the timer adjust its duration based on circumstances seems like a better idea, like having the timer pause every time the current player's move is interrupted by having to wait for some animation sequence to end, or having an opportunity to acquire or remove cards from the tavern, etc. Either that, or give the game proper multi-threading so the NPCs aren't the only ones who can continue making their moves despite the game needing to go through some animation sequence-- which I think should really be happening at a much faster speed, anyway.

The timer already stops during any animation.

Supreme_Atromancer

I wonder what percentage of ToT tanks are only doing so to gather data.

SeaGtGruff

Heelie wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

First of all, this thread really belongs in the ToT forum, so I expect it will be moved there. What I'm getting at is, maybe next time create a new thread about ToT in the ToT forum so it won't have to be moved there by a mod.

Now, on to my real responses.

I hate the timer, and am soooooo glad there's no timer in the NPC matches (which are the only ones I play anymore, although I've been thinking about playing occasional PvP matches again). You don't know how many times I've been playing ToT with an NPC and had my turn get interrupted and prolonged by having a cat jump up in my lap demanding attention, or getting up to go take an "I can't put it off any longer" BB or grab a beverage or snack, or having to speak to someone in the house or on the phone, etc. When I played what few PvP matches I did play, the timer nearly cut off several of my turns-- and actually did cut off a few of my opponents' turns-- and in all of those cases the players involved (whether myself or my opponent) was in the middle of making actual moves, not merely sitting there trying to troll the other person.

Frankly, I wonder how much timer-trolling there would be if there were no more timer? I mean, what if something else were to be implemented instead, such as sitting still for too long causes both players to get disconnected from the server and have to log in again, and the player whose turn it was when the disconnection occurred gets punished in some way, such as by being made to wait in a login queue before they can get back in, or by having a 15-minute cooldown (or however long a dungeon cooldown usually is) before they can queue for another ToT match? I'm thinking that something like that would probably break most of the timer-trolls of their bad habit, whereas having a timer-- presumably for the purpose of stopping players from being trolls who deliberately take too long for their moves-- actually seems to create a situation that makes timer-trolling possible in the first place.

Aside from IRL interruptions that can prolong ones moves, the game itself has annoying quirks that can eat into the allowed time for ones move, such as being in the middle of playing your cards but then suddenly having to stop and wait for a few seconds while the game finishes animating the opponent's cards being dealt out for their next hand. Or I'll be playing some of my cards and suddenly have to pause for a few seconds to wait for the game to pop up an "acquire (or remove) up to x cards from the tavern" message, or wait for the animation of more cards being drawn to finish, etc. Oddly enough, the game doesn't seem to have such problems with the NPCs' moves, because in almost every NPC match I'm seeing the NPC buy or acquire or remove cards even before the card which is allowing them to do that has even been flipped over and played. It's like the game is multi-threaded or something as far as processing the NPCs' moves, but not when it comes to my moves.

I get that timer-trolling is a thing (because the very existence of the timer actually makes it possible for timer-trolling to be a thing in the first place), but shortening the timer seems like a really horrible idea to me. The idea of having the timer adjust its duration based on circumstances seems like a better idea, like having the timer pause every time the current player's move is interrupted by having to wait for some animation sequence to end, or having an opportunity to acquire or remove cards from the tavern, etc. Either that, or give the game proper multi-threading so the NPCs aren't the only ones who can continue making their moves despite the game needing to go through some animation sequence-- which I think should really be happening at a much faster speed, anyway.

The timer already stops during any animation.

It does? That's good news! You can tell I haven't many PvP matches.

NoSoup

ESO_player123 wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

The simple solution is to introduce a patron that rewards players for taking their turn faster than their opponent....

I foresee some players quickly flipping their cards and ending their turn without doing anything.

Well the counterplay to that would be you have unfetted access to the Tavern....

tsaescishoeshiner

Sometimes I need the full timer to think! Once you have enough resources and cards that you have many options, there is actually a bit of playing 3-steps-ahead.

I recently won a game where I "roped" (played until the timer ran out) a few turns just because I needed to think things through, and even then I still made silly mistakes. I started off down 3-23 but eventually won 95-45, so the decision-making paid off that time.

Kinda just gotta learn to deal with timers.

Gwent has a very fun weekly mode that comes up every now and then where each turn is only 6 seconds! As a slow thinker, I somehow find it exhilarating lol. It's so fast you have to build decks specially for it, because you'll literally run out of time to click on things lol. Weekday Tribute special modes like that would be really cool!

Zarathustra88

While I have been the victim of tanking before, I doubt it is used often as a strategy. I usually assume a player walked away either because they were upset at how the game is going, or maybe due to some other RL situation that came up.

I don't think the timer needs to be shortened. However, it does need an upgrade. Something more dynamic. First off, 90 seconds for turn 1 is ridiculous. 15 maybe 20 seconds is plenty. Later in the game though 90 seconds may not be enough. We should also consider the effects of lag. I have played before where the lag was so bad that every card had to be clicked 3-5 times and turns that should take 10 seconds took 45 seconds.

Here is my suggestion.
Turns 1-5 = 30 second timer.
Subsequent turns = 60 second timer.
Each player has a time bank of 3 minutes. they can access by clicking a button that counts down after normal time runs out and stops when they end their turn.

This way you can access extra time when you need to think, or when you are drawing through 20 cards with a crow combo but lessens the ability for players to tank 90 seconds every turn.

Also, and equally as important is that animations need to be sped up significantly. I can't tell you how many times I've had my turn cut short in the middle of animations while trying to complete the last 1 or 2 actions. Animations can sometimes take up 20-30 seconds of your 90 second timer. The animations should be almost instant, or at least skippable so as not to affect the players ability to complete a turn.

AnduinTryggva

I recommend to report players that use the timer for trolling purposes.

noneatza

You're picking sorc king ?
You're using the patron in turn two ?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

WetYoda

This is an opportunity for ZOS to offer customers a match-making choice that can make everyone happy.

Perhaps something like this...

Turn Timer Settings
You will only be matched with players that have the same timer settings.

• Default - You have 90 seconds to complete each turn.
• Dynamic - Turns one through five have a 30 second timer. Subsequent turns have a 60-second timer.
• Fast - You have 30 seconds to complete each turn.

This may result in slightly longer queues, but I suspect most will be excited to queue only for matches with like-minded opponents.

petanko

15-20 sec base time + 3-5 seconds for every extra action you need to do (agent, new card, refresh-return, etc). And maybe up to 60 sec additional time you can use when in a pinch. Problem solved. But it's SO hard to implement.