Sharp-As-Night's questline handles its dark subject matter extremely poorly

Synaryn

In Sharp's quest, it's quickly revealed he's a former slave with total amnesia, and his master was a Telvanni magister called Sondivel Ulres. The relationship very much reads as sexually abusive. I have a screenshot collection detailing this part. Now, I'm in no way opposed to a questline exploring SA, and TES has done a great job exploring dark subjects before. Lamae Bal's introduction was done very well in my opinion, and Serana was excellent all around! But Sharp's questline doesn't handle this subject with any of the grace it deserves, and by the end of playing it I felt so gross and disturbed the way the quest treated this so carelessly.

The major issue is Sharp is shoved out of the spotlight in his own questline with narrative emphasis given to Sondevil. With so much of the emphasis in Sondevil, it makes Sharp feel like an object used to villify him, than a protagonist with agency in his own story, which is especially awful in an SA storyline. Sondivel's obsession is hammered in so often it comes off as using it for shock value. The metaphors and oblique language used to sidestep the nature of the abuse only draw out this shock value, rather than explicitly stating it and moving on to Sharp's healing instead of rehashing his trauma. There's a scene where we play as Sharp in one of his memories of being abused by Sondevil, and the dialogue is so bad and gross it's like reading a Fifty Shades of Grey fanfic. As an SA survivor, it was really offputting and difficult to get through.

My feedback to improve this quest is:

1. Condense the Sondivel plotline to Sharp's first two quests and make Sharp's second two quests about healing and reconnecting with his sister.
   
   Very few SA storylines ever explore the healing that comes afterward, only the trauma itself. Doing this would be ZOS actually pushing boundaries, and centering an SA survivor in their own story. The narrative emphasis would be on Sharp rather than Sondevil.
   
2. Change the POV in Sharp's memory scene to being an observer rather than as Sharp
   
   While this scene is very effective at getting you to empathize with Sharp, it's not needed for you to be in his shoes. Sondevil's cartoonish villainly does plenty for us to empathize with Sharp, and pushing it to this point turns it into just shock value.
   
3. Make Federo's implied feelings for Sharp more explicit so his more healthy relationship contrasts to Sondivel's obsession
   
   Having a character with healthy normal feelings for Sharp gives breathing room from the SA and helps remove some of the narrative emphasis on Sondivel's obsession.
   
4. Make the sexual abuse explicitly mentioned early on, have only one or two of Sondivel's flowery speeches about his obsession with Sharp
   
   As mentioned, hammering it in with metaphors and oblique language comes off as gross and using the SA, again, as in-your-face shock value. State it, give the examples, and stop the shock value.

NeuroticPixels

I went through your screenshots. Yowza. Yikes. Thanks for sharing, and thanks for your post. I agree 100%.

LunaFlora

i agree and the quests sound like it would be awful to play
i really hope it gets changed

LamiaCritter

Didn't you already post about this? Where'd the other topic go? O-o It was here just a few hours ago.

Jusey1

Holy Moly.... That's something.

SirLeeMinion

Agreed, OP.

This is awful, and I won't fund it.

Synaryn

LamiaCritter wrote: »

Didn't you already post about this? Where'd the other topic go? O-o It was here just a few hours ago.

The thread was removed by mods for inappropriate content, I revised it to not include what they objected to.

LonePirate

This is sickening. How did this quest line make it through multiple members of the writing, zone content and managerial teams? ZOS needs to pull this from release as I don't see how they can rework or overhaul it (including rewrites and revised voiceovers) in the next 4-5 weeks before the code has to be locked down around the end of May.

TheNuminous1

Zos you better remove this failure quest. I'm so shocked at them for this.

thejadefalcon

Synaryn wrote: »

LamiaCritter wrote: »

Didn't you already post about this? Where'd the other topic go? O-o It was here just a few hours ago.

The thread was removed by mods for inappropriate content, I revised it to not include what they objected to.

For the sake of clarity, what the mod thought was inappropriate was the word "gay", in a "this storyline is about a gay person" sense, which is apparently still derogatory.

LukosCreyden

Didn't High Isle also have a really creepy and poorly done sidequest in it too? I seem to recall hearing something about this (i haven't played it yet), but I think it was something to do with the dialogue? If so, its weird that this sort of thing has happened twice now.

ESO_Nightingale

do you at least get to kill the abuser at the end?

Jaimeh

I didn't read all the screenshots in detail, but I read enough to feel disturbed and it's indeed beyond off-putting. I hope they will amend the quest before release, especially the first-person PoV, otherwise I think a lot of players will just play with the sound off and skip the dialogue, or just won't do the quest. I don't know what changes they made to the writing team that the writing has deteriorated so much in the last 2-3 years, there's been a lot of discussion about it here in the forums, but every year seems worse. ESO has had quests dealing with darker subject matters, but it was usually from a poignant stance, and the writing wasn't sensational for sensationalism's sake, which I think is the case with this quest.

CoolBlast3

I'm content ZOS has done a dark story for once. Just because it makes some people uncomfortable does not mean it needs deleting (akin to what happened Galen)
I will however say that I am happy also you provided valid feedback instead of just ranting on twitter as many did before. ZOS should listen to suggestions here 100%, but if they don't, I hope they don't just scrap the questline.
Male victims of SA are a rarely presented minority, and despite the incredibly icky dialogue, I do not get the sensation it's done for shock value (unlike the Galen dialogue). It seems like an intentionally icky questline to show you that the world isn't just butterflies and rainbows, something TES certainly is not.

I also disagree with the idea that the slave master is written as a gay caricature and honestly find that idea a bit insulting.

Either way, 100% agree on points 3 and 4

FantasticFreddie

I started the quest and abandoned it. It's awful and I really hope they change it prior to launch. It's just too much as is.

Synaryn

CoolBlast3 wrote: »

I also disagree with the idea that the slave master is written as a gay caricature and honestly find that idea a bit insulting.

From TVTropes:

"The villain is gay, and his sexuality motivates a lot of his evil behavior. Played Straight: A gay villain with uncomfortable, one-sided sexually predatory obsession with the hero. Please note that a villain simply being gay is not enough for this trope to be in effect. His brand of evil must involve a sexual nature and/or some uncomfortable flirting. Or even better, outright sexual threats."

Synaryn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

do you at least get to kill the abuser at the end?

Yes thankfully, though I'm not really a fan of killing the abuser being the endpoint of the questline. It centers the abuser over the abused.

caesarvs

CoolBlast3 wrote: »

I'm content ZOS has done a dark story for once. Just because it makes some people uncomfortable does not mean it needs deleting (akin to what happened Galen)

I second this. It is absurd to request that some quest on a fantasy game to be deleted (or modified) just because of one personal circunstances. The game has a MATURE 17+ ESRB, after all.

However, expanding the quest to healing part is a good way of conclude the history (without touching the stuff you screenshoted, OP)

caesarvs

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It's just too much as is.

Not really. It's good to see something "darker" from time to time. For those who didn't like it, just skip it or rush to get you companion unlocked.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Treselegant

Jaimeh wrote: »

I didn't read all the screenshots in detail, but I read enough to feel disturbed and it's indeed beyond off-putting. I hope they will amend the quest before release, especially the first-person PoV, otherwise I think a lot of players will just play with the sound off and skip the dialogue, or just won't do the quest. I don't know what changes they made to the writing team that the writing has deteriorated so much in the last 2-3 years, there's been a lot of discussion about it here in the forums, but every year seems worse. ESO has had quests dealing with darker subject matters, but it was usually from a poignant stance, and the writing wasn't sensational for sensationalism's sake, which I think is the case with this quest.

I have to agree. Darker themes have to be treated with a degree of maturity and looking at the villain's dialogue...I'm not sure that's what we're getting here. The writing of late really lacks subtlety and can come across as bad fan-fictiony at times. At this late stage I don't know what can be done to improve this quest without starting again which probably won't happen.

Also, looking at the quest images - is the villain wearing bright purple lipstick? I really hope not because linking gender non-conformity to the rest of his character would really hammer home the flamboyant sexually motivated villain trope.

RevJJ

caesarvs wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It's just too much as is.

Not really. It's good to see something "darker" from time to time. For those who didn't like it, just skip it or rush to get you companion unlocked.

[snip]

Darker is fine but if people who have been through the kind of trauma that is referenced here flag that the way the subject matter is handled is not ok, then the decent thing to do is to listen and not gaslight them.

I’m not a survivor myself but there are multiple people in this thread calling out an issue here, and I will gladly back them up if necessary because it’s important that this is addressed.

[edited to remove quote]

Synaryn

Treselegant wrote: »

Also, looking at the quest images - is the villain wearing bright purple lipstick? I really hope not because linking gender non-conformity to the rest of his character would really hammer home the flamboyant sexually motivated villain trope.

He is, and there were a few other traits of his that fell into that camp. Not great.

Soarora

RevJJ wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It's just too much as is.

Not really. It's good to see something "darker" from time to time. For those who didn't like it, just skip it or rush to get you companion unlocked.

[snip]

Darker is fine but if people who have been through the kind of trauma that is referenced here flag that the way the subject matter is handled is not ok, then the decent thing to do is to listen and not gaslight them.

I’m not a survivor myself but there are multiple people in this thread calling out an issue here, and I will gladly back them up if necessary because it’s important that this is addressed.

This for sure. People need to notice when they don’t really get a voice on a topic. The quest doesn’t bother me but I don’t hold related trauma. Those who do get the voice on this.

[edited to remove quote]

emilyhyoyeon

Synaryn wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

Also, looking at the quest images - is the villain wearing bright purple lipstick? I really hope not because linking gender non-conformity to the rest of his character would really hammer home the flamboyant sexually motivated villain trope.

He is, and there were a few other traits of his that fell into that camp. Not great.

This is the most shocking to me about all this. Who in their right mind would approve this design let alone make it, like WHAT

Ratzkifal

So I've been playing through the quest now after stumbling upon this thread. I felt it was worth checking out and forming my own opinion over. I like the quest so far and Sharp's personality is great although I don't like how much he seems to dislike Eastmarch. I can understand him not liking Sadrith Mora. But I digress.

I am currently at an important(?) choice in the story:

I am guessing I won't be going through his memories if I select the option of me also wanting to forget some things? Because that kind of makes a big difference when it comes to the way the quest is being handled. I can understand SA survivors having a hard time playing through this, but if one option really allows you to skip the worst parts of it (I presume), then it isn't so bad.
Even then, so far I don't think the quest has been handling the subject poorly. Sure, Sondivel seems to be very creepy and from the screenshots I already know he is quite flamboyant, but so is Federo. But I don't think it is a problem for a flamboyant character to be evil. After all, anyone has the capability to commit evil - nobody is excluded from that. And it's not like the quest portays all characters who are like that as evil. This trope was problematic at a time where that was the rule and characters in media could only be portrayed in such a way if they were also evil. Nowadays we have examples of both good and bad. Federo is a perfect counter example to Sondivel, showing that not everyone who likes to wear lipstick and make-up like that is a creep like him.

But back to my dilemma. Which option do I pick now? I originally wanted to go through the memories to see how bad it gets, but seeing as I (presumably) have the option to not go through them, I kind of want to know if that is possible or not. Anyone picked that option? Can you let me know if it affects the story at all?

CoolBlast3

caesarvs wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It's just too much as is.

Not really. It's good to see something "darker" from time to time. For those who didn't like it, just skip it or rush to get you companion unlocked.

[snip]

As someone who was assaulted, I very much agree here. I like seeing these topics explored instead of pretending they don't exist, and whilst the galen stuff was for shock value, this is a full blown storyline and from the screenshots, seems properly written - even if people dislike the contents

Despite this, ZOS should just add CWarnings and the option to skip troubling quests (especially if they have rewards like companion) It's a good middle ground imo

[edited to remove quote]

Tommy_The_Gun

Yikes ! This sounds terrible. Why does always, whenever there is an interesting Argonian character, the story always has to do with either slavery or "something" sexual. I it kinda sad and I don't get it.

Tbh. I was kinda afraid that it may happen. As soon as I heard that we are getting an Argonian companion I was like: They can not go with the "orientation" as companions are neutral. If they go with slavery again, it will be like reapeting old stuff.

I Guess I was just hoping they will figure out something new. But, here I see that they didn't. It is a shame.

Edit:
I have not complete this quest yet, as I want to have as little spoilers as possible, but thanks to this thread - now at least I know what I am getting myself into.

So quick question:

Can we kill the bad evil slavers this time (In Morriwnd we could not) Yes/No ?

Synaryn

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So I've been playing through the quest now after stumbling upon this thread. I felt it was worth checking out and forming my own opinion over. I like the quest so far and Sharp's personality is great although I don't like how much he seems to dislike Eastmarch. I can understand him not liking Sadrith Mora. But I digress.

I am currently at an important(?) choice in the story:

I am guessing I won't be going through his memories if I select the option of me also wanting to forget some things? Because that kind of makes a big difference when it comes to the way the quest is being handled. I can understand SA survivors having a hard time playing through this, but if one option really allows you to skip the worst parts of it (I presume), then it isn't so bad.
Even then, so far I don't think the quest has been handling the subject poorly. Sure, Sondivel seems to be very creepy and from the screenshots I already know he is quite flamboyant, but so is Federo. But I don't think it is a problem for a flamboyant character to be evil. After all, anyone has the capability to commit evil - nobody is excluded from that. And it's not like the quest portays all characters who are like that as evil. This trope was problematic at a time where that was the rule and characters in media could only be portrayed in such a way if they were also evil. Nowadays we have examples of both good and bad. Federo is a perfect counter example to Sondivel, showing that not everyone who likes to wear lipstick and make-up like that is a creep like him.

But back to my dilemma. Which option do I pick now? I originally wanted to go through the memories to see how bad it gets, but seeing as I (presumably) have the option to not go through them, I kind of want to know if that is possible or not. Anyone picked that option? Can you let me know if it affects the story at all?

View the memory IMO, I will hop onto PTS tonight with a new character to see what the first option leads to and post screenshots.

Federo isn't that great of a counter example, it's pretty easy to miss the line where his drinking buddy implies he has feelings for Sharp, and the only other evidence for it is Federo giving up everything to run away from Sondivel. It would be good if they made it a little more obvious,it's not like they've made Sondivel's feelings subtle or anything.

LunaFlora

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Yikes ! This sounds terrible. Why does always, whenever there is an interesting Argonian character, the story always has to do with either slavery or "something" sexual. I it kinda sad and I don't get it.

Tbh. I was kinda afraid that may happen. As soon as I heard that we are getting an Argonian companion I was like: They can not go with the "orientation" as companions are neutral. If they go with slavery again, it will be like reapeting old stuff.

I Guess I was just hoping they will figure out something new. But, here I see that they didn't. It is a shame.

Edit:
I have not complete this quest yet, as I want to have as little spoilers as possible, but thanks to this thread - now at least I know what I am getting myself into.

So quick question:

Can we kill the bad evil slavers this time (In Morriwnd we could not) Yes/No ?

yea! this reminds me so much of Walks-Softly's questline in the Thieves Guild dlc and it's sad

and someone did say you can kill the slaver from the quest.
you can also kill a house dres slaver world boss somewhere in the Telvanni Peninsula

edit to add:
it's actually pretty annoying the first khajiit and argonian companions have questlines that involve slavery in some kind of way but all the other companions get to have relatively calm adventures

i already feared it would be the case with Sharp because what else would happen with an argonian in morrowind, right?

it's already very known slavery happens in morrowind and that most often it's argonians that get enslaved. so if it didnt happen to Sharp you wouldn't be able to pretend it didn't happen.

VaranisArano

I'm not sure how much of this ZOS could change at this point, so I'll just point out that Warframe's "The New War" quest featured a roughly similar arc of someone confronting an obsessed abuser.

That quest started off with this content warning.

https://twitter.com/PlayWarframe/status/1471103060885782529

Picture link: https://preview.redd.it/rknn1vrdrkg91.jpg?auto=webp&s=6f93bcaacd43a281596ca0e0d653c2e2af31eab5


Both games are PEGI 18, so while a content warning would be out of the norm for ESO's past content, it wouldn't be out of line for the genre.

emilyhyoyeon

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Yikes ! This sounds terrible. Why does always, whenever there is an interesting Argonian character, the story always has to do with either slavery or "something" sexual. I it kinda sad and I don't get it.

Tbh. I was kinda afraid that it may happen. As soon as I heard that we are getting an Argonian companion I was like: They can not go with the "orientation" as companions are neutral. If they go with slavery again, it will be like reapeting old stuff.

I Guess I was just hoping they will figure out something new. But, here I see that they didn't. It is a shame.

Earlier on when the two new companions were first mentioned on the January live IIRC, I remember Sharp being described as having a dark past or something. I seriously thought it was going to be something like him being an ex-shadowscale and running from that duty/reconciling being a past murderer or something (like an ode to Oblivion's Scar-Tail), especially considering a shadowscale companion has been super requested in terms of potential argonian companions.