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Suggestion: changes to attacks and action queueing

nokturnihs
nokturnihs
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Just a suggestion but to bridge the gap between high APM players and Low APM players change the behavior of how we do LA's and HA's. Other games that have separate key binding for light and heavy attacks, you hold down the light attack key and you start spamming light attacks. Same for heavies. That functionality of holding down the button and queueing other skills to fire between timings would really help the people that CAN'T click 100 things a minute. I realize there's issues with that for controller compatibility with ESO so maybe change how the block+attack buttons work. You hit block FIRST you block and your attack fires as normal. You hold down attack and then hit the block button and you convert your LA spam to a HA spam. You would need to stop attacking to block and that could offer some issues but otherwise things would function as normal. It doesn't hurt the high APM players, in fact it just makes it easier for them to hit those high numbers with a little less repetitive stress injury. For low APM players it becomes an accessibility feature (like the disabled kind and maybe the access to content kind) as it makes it easier for us to work the content. If you're holding attack and spamming light attacks then hold block the next attack tick will be converted to a HA for as long as you hold block. No need to mess with the GCD or anything else... Weaving shouldn't be effected either since holding attack should still animation cancel as soon as one LA tick fires and the next scheduled action fires, which is then AC'd as soon as the next LA would fire...

It'd make it easier for people to play more casual play styles, wouldn't hurt the sweatiest of the sweaty and would help crippled folks a little and give us access to viable use of stuff LA builds styles use, although some of us are still gonna struggle with the extra 60 clicks the high APM players get off...

Just a thought...
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    Any reasons -technical/mechanical- reasons this wouldn't be a great solution that is a win-win for everyone? Other than maybe people needing to remember to stop attacking to block once they've started attacking? I suppose you could also work around potential issues there by having the behavior while blocking first that a single click while holding block is still a LA and holding it while blocking fires a heavy attack and resumes blocking...
  • Necrotech_Master
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    you cant light or heavy attack while using block, and using the block button to convert light attack to heavy attack is nonsense, because block action takes precedence over light or heavy attacks (and even most other animations)

    the way your suggesting would break block (again) because someone hits a light attack then needs to block and it ends up converting to a heavy attack and now they are dead because they couldnt block
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    you cant light or heavy attack while using block, and using the block button to convert light attack to heavy attack is nonsense, because block action takes precedence over light or heavy attacks (and even most other animations)

    the way your suggesting would break block (again) because someone hits a light attack then needs to block and it ends up converting to a heavy attack and now they are dead because they couldnt block

    So then double tap and hold ... There's other ways around it. That was just one option I could think of that wouldn't break controller compatibility. I use a controller to accommodate my disability. People on console MUST use controller so if there's a better way of doing it that doesn't require an extra keybind that's just not possible on controller... That's fine.

    The concept is to reduce the required amount of keystrokes required to get higher APM with less repetitive injury and/or make it possible for less abled players to reach higher APM and make better use of sets otherwise locked behind being physically capable of button-mashing at that speed.
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    Double tap and hold to switch between LA spamming and regular HA spamming to clarify. Or whatever other way that allows for it.
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    with all of the issues they have had with block in the past 8 months, i would try to avoid utilizing the block key for anything other than block

    if you want low APM, thats what a HA build is supposed to be for
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    with all of the issues they have had with block in the past 8 months, i would try to avoid utilizing the block key for anything other than block

    if you want low APM, thats what a HA build is supposed to be for

    This would be an alternative to that, one not necessarily locked behind specific DLC and one that serves the needs of people with disabilities and doesn't cost the high APM crowd anything.

    If anything this would be better than an HA build build because both the individual player and the group could get more benefit from "more traditional builds" and give disabled/new players reasons to play with more sets and contribute more easily. And it sidesteps the contention the HA conversation is steeped in...
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    with all of the issues they have had with block in the past 8 months, i would try to avoid utilizing the block key for anything other than block

    if you want low APM, thats what a HA build is supposed to be for

    And don't disagree with block bugs being pretty garbage recently. Maybe double tap and hold for LA spamming and just hold for LA would be the easiest compromise there...
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    nokturnihs wrote: »
    with all of the issues they have had with block in the past 8 months, i would try to avoid utilizing the block key for anything other than block

    if you want low APM, thats what a HA build is supposed to be for

    This would be an alternative to that, one not necessarily locked behind specific DLC and one that serves the needs of people with disabilities and doesn't cost the high APM crowd anything.

    If anything this would be better than an HA build build because both the individual player and the group could get more benefit from "more traditional builds" and give disabled/new players reasons to play with more sets and contribute more easily. And it sidesteps the contention the HA conversation is steeped in...

    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • Soarora
    Soarora
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    Maybe another button that toggles HA/LA spam but good direction I think. Also maybe holding down skill = fires it repeatedly. Traditional clicking would still have a better rhythm but let's be honest here I don't think it's all that safe in the long run for everyone's hands and wrists, so having another option to do a similar thing that's easy to switch to whenever would be great.

    Edit: Now that I think about it, holding down a button to light attack and timing the skill off of that is kind of reverse weaving. Still requires skill to time it right so... very much why not?
    Edited by Soarora on April 21, 2023 10:25PM
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Heal/Tank), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    Not really. I didn't bring the/a HA topic/narrative in here other than to reference a similar functionality or form. Gonna ignore the tone in parenthesis as it's not relevant.

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check

    That's off topic my friend, and regardless of that admirable sentiment, does nothing to assist disabled people or reduce RSI's...

    This approach or one like it adds more potential build combos without hurting the LA builds styles, it helps disabled folks and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement on a technical level or get used to as a player.
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    Soarora wrote: »
    Maybe another button that toggles HA/LA spam but good direction I think. Also maybe holding down skill = fires it repeatedly. Traditional clicking would still have a better rhythm but let's be honest here I don't think it's all that safe in the long run for everyone's hands and wrists, so having another option to do a similar thing that's easy to switch to whenever would be great.

    Edit: Now that I think about it, holding down a button to light attack and timing the skill off of that is kind of reverse weaving. Still requires skill to time it right so... very much why not?

    Just trying to figure out how to add it into an existing controller layout is what's making me think... Maybe something off the DPAD?
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    nokturnihs wrote: »

    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    Not really. I didn't bring the/a HA topic/narrative in here other than to reference a similar functionality or form. Gonna ignore the tone in parenthesis as it's not relevant.

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check

    That's off topic my friend, and regardless of that admirable sentiment, does nothing to assist disabled people or reduce RSI's...

    This approach or one like it adds more potential build combos without hurting the LA builds styles, it helps disabled folks and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement on a technical level or get used to as a player.

    my point was that if your holding a button to light attack or heavy attack, your APM is still going to be higher if your holding the button to light attack

    skills would be on the 1 sec gcd, that is a minimum of 1 button click per second or 60 apm regardless if your light/heavy attacking

    however with heavy attacking, due to the cast time of the heavy (2.1 sec), it effectively is cutting your APM almost in half, which if your trying to advocate support for people with disabled people, is 100% more effective than creating an entirely new method to add light attack auto casting which would actually increase APM compared to a heavy attack weave

    if your looking at the APM per hand, changing to a light attack auto cast system would not at all change the APM for the hand casting skills

    also assuming that the APM is also only paying attention to standing still and not moving, i play with the wasd keys to move and 1-5 number for skills and space for jump, so my left hand is doing about 4x the apm than my right hand (which is only using left/right mouse click and a few extra buttons for stuff like ccbreak, bash, weapon swap, synergy)

    so while total apm may decrease if you change light attack to a hold on a button, overall APM isnt going to change much and is only going to help 1 hand, the hand that will have to still spam skills every 1 sec to go with gcd wont see any change

    the HA builds however, improve APM on both hands, since you only need to use a skill about every 2.5 seconds
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    nokturnihs wrote: »

    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    Not really. I didn't bring the/a HA topic/narrative in here other than to reference a similar functionality or form. Gonna ignore the tone in parenthesis as it's not relevant.

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check

    That's off topic my friend, and regardless of that admirable sentiment, does nothing to assist disabled people or reduce RSI's...

    This approach or one like it adds more potential build combos without hurting the LA builds styles, it helps disabled folks and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement on a technical level or get used to as a player.

    my point was that if your holding a button to light attack or heavy attack, your APM is still going to be higher if your holding the button to light attack

    skills would be on the 1 sec gcd, that is a minimum of 1 button click per second or 60 apm regardless if your light/heavy attacking

    however with heavy attacking, due to the cast time of the heavy (2.1 sec), it effectively is cutting your APM almost in half, which if your trying to advocate support for people with disabled people, is 100% more effective than creating an entirely new method to add light attack auto casting which would actually increase APM compared to a heavy attack weave

    if your looking at the APM per hand, changing to a light attack auto cast system would not at all change the APM for the hand casting skills

    also assuming that the APM is also only paying attention to standing still and not moving, i play with the wasd keys to move and 1-5 number for skills and space for jump, so my left hand is doing about 4x the apm than my right hand (which is only using left/right mouse click and a few extra buttons for stuff like ccbreak, bash, weapon swap, synergy)

    so while total apm may decrease if you change light attack to a hold on a button, overall APM isnt going to change much and is only going to help 1 hand, the hand that will have to still spam skills every 1 sec to go with gcd wont see any change

    the HA builds however, improve APM on both hands, since you only need to use a skill about every 2.5 seconds

    It gives people more build options than JUST HA builds though. And while it doesn't do anything to reduce the hand activating skills it does help it. I kind of liked Soarora's idea of holding skill keys to autocast. In conjunction that could REALLY help disabled folks as you could just hold down the LA auto and your main spammable and they should fire off as quick as they can. As a disabled guy it'd be a heck of a lot easier to press and hold two keys and continue to move around, etc, occasionally stopping one or the other to hit another key, block or whatever. I use a controller so holding RT+ LB as an example to auto LA and fire off (for example) crystal weapon would give me a lot more options to play with. As it stands now yeah, a HA build does reduce the clicks needed by a lot but it is boring and pretty much locks you into one play style. It'd be great to have more build options and not be pinned into one tiny corner of the many sets and skills and classes.

    Heck, press and hold for auto casting skills by themselves would help us...
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »

    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    Not really. I didn't bring the/a HA topic/narrative in here other than to reference a similar functionality or form. Gonna ignore the tone in parenthesis as it's not relevant.

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check

    That's off topic my friend, and regardless of that admirable sentiment, does nothing to assist disabled people or reduce RSI's...

    This approach or one like it adds more potential build combos without hurting the LA builds styles, it helps disabled folks and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement on a technical level or get used to as a player.

    my point was that if your holding a button to light attack or heavy attack, your APM is still going to be higher if your holding the button to light attack

    skills would be on the 1 sec gcd, that is a minimum of 1 button click per second or 60 apm regardless if your light/heavy attacking

    however with heavy attacking, due to the cast time of the heavy (2.1 sec), it effectively is cutting your APM almost in half, which if your trying to advocate support for people with disabled people, is 100% more effective than creating an entirely new method to add light attack auto casting which would actually increase APM compared to a heavy attack weave

    if your looking at the APM per hand, changing to a light attack auto cast system would not at all change the APM for the hand casting skills

    also assuming that the APM is also only paying attention to standing still and not moving, i play with the wasd keys to move and 1-5 number for skills and space for jump, so my left hand is doing about 4x the apm than my right hand (which is only using left/right mouse click and a few extra buttons for stuff like ccbreak, bash, weapon swap, synergy)

    so while total apm may decrease if you change light attack to a hold on a button, overall APM isnt going to change much and is only going to help 1 hand, the hand that will have to still spam skills every 1 sec to go with gcd wont see any change

    the HA builds however, improve APM on both hands, since you only need to use a skill about every 2.5 seconds

    It gives people more build options than JUST HA builds though. And while it doesn't do anything to reduce the hand activating skills it does help it. I kind of liked Soarora's idea of holding skill keys to autocast. In conjunction that could REALLY help disabled folks as you could just hold down the LA auto and your main spammable and they should fire off as quick as they can. As a disabled guy it'd be a heck of a lot easier to press and hold two keys and continue to move around, etc, occasionally stopping one or the other to hit another key, block or whatever. I use a controller so holding RT+ LB as an example to auto LA and fire off (for example) crystal weapon would give me a lot more options to play with. As it stands now yeah, a HA build does reduce the clicks needed by a lot but it is boring and pretty much locks you into one play style. It'd be great to have more build options and not be pinned into one tiny corner of the many sets and skills and classes.

    Heck, press and hold for auto casting skills by themselves would help us...

    if they added hold to cast anything (light attack, skill etc), it would feel like at that point the game is basically playing for you and all you need to do is target and move

    im not trying to bash disabled people who might need that kind of assistance, but at the same time, are you really even playing the game at that point if your basically just holding buttons down?

    thats honestly the equivalent of just using a macro to auto press 1 skill every say 1 second by holding down a button (which is possible to do right now, but would possibly be flagged for cheating)

    if you do auto cast light attack and auto cast skill at the same time, the game is effectively playing and weaving for you, or most likely if they did this, they would disable being able to do more than 1 hold action at a time, effectively blocking weaving entirely and your dmg would be severely worse than just using a HA build

    again im not trying to exclude people, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere between what could be seen as basically botting and the minimum amount of work you need to do for a HA build
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
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    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »

    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    Not really. I didn't bring the/a HA topic/narrative in here other than to reference a similar functionality or form. Gonna ignore the tone in parenthesis as it's not relevant.

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check

    That's off topic my friend, and regardless of that admirable sentiment, does nothing to assist disabled people or reduce RSI's...

    This approach or one like it adds more potential build combos without hurting the LA builds styles, it helps disabled folks and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement on a technical level or get used to as a player.

    my point was that if your holding a button to light attack or heavy attack, your APM is still going to be higher if your holding the button to light attack

    skills would be on the 1 sec gcd, that is a minimum of 1 button click per second or 60 apm regardless if your light/heavy attacking

    however with heavy attacking, due to the cast time of the heavy (2.1 sec), it effectively is cutting your APM almost in half, which if your trying to advocate support for people with disabled people, is 100% more effective than creating an entirely new method to add light attack auto casting which would actually increase APM compared to a heavy attack weave

    if your looking at the APM per hand, changing to a light attack auto cast system would not at all change the APM for the hand casting skills

    also assuming that the APM is also only paying attention to standing still and not moving, i play with the wasd keys to move and 1-5 number for skills and space for jump, so my left hand is doing about 4x the apm than my right hand (which is only using left/right mouse click and a few extra buttons for stuff like ccbreak, bash, weapon swap, synergy)

    so while total apm may decrease if you change light attack to a hold on a button, overall APM isnt going to change much and is only going to help 1 hand, the hand that will have to still spam skills every 1 sec to go with gcd wont see any change

    the HA builds however, improve APM on both hands, since you only need to use a skill about every 2.5 seconds

    It gives people more build options than JUST HA builds though. And while it doesn't do anything to reduce the hand activating skills it does help it. I kind of liked Soarora's idea of holding skill keys to autocast. In conjunction that could REALLY help disabled folks as you could just hold down the LA auto and your main spammable and they should fire off as quick as they can. As a disabled guy it'd be a heck of a lot easier to press and hold two keys and continue to move around, etc, occasionally stopping one or the other to hit another key, block or whatever. I use a controller so holding RT+ LB as an example to auto LA and fire off (for example) crystal weapon would give me a lot more options to play with. As it stands now yeah, a HA build does reduce the clicks needed by a lot but it is boring and pretty much locks you into one play style. It'd be great to have more build options and not be pinned into one tiny corner of the many sets and skills and classes.

    Heck, press and hold for auto casting skills by themselves would help us...

    if they added hold to cast anything (light attack, skill etc), it would feel like at that point the game is basically playing for you and all you need to do is target and move

    im not trying to bash disabled people who might need that kind of assistance, but at the same time, are you really even playing the game at that point if your basically just holding buttons down?

    thats honestly the equivalent of just using a macro to auto press 1 skill every say 1 second by holding down a button (which is possible to do right now, but would possibly be flagged for cheating)

    if you do auto cast light attack and auto cast skill at the same time, the game is effectively playing and weaving for you, or most likely if they did this, they would disable being able to do more than 1 hold action at a time, effectively blocking weaving entirely and your dmg would be severely worse than just using a HA build

    again im not trying to exclude people, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere between what could be seen as basically botting and the minimum amount of work you need to do for a HA build

    I wasn't talking about HA builds but can see how that could be seen that way. That said unfortunately at the moment the state of combat in ESO -IS- exclusionary - it's not you; it's how combat functions.

    Here's the thing though... It's supposed to be a multiplayer RPG. Most RPG's offer multiple ways of engaging enemies that allow people to do more than button mash to win. In this case there's only the one, spam X, Y and Z to win. That isn't very cohesive to some of the definitive elements of what an RPG is nor does it properly attract players from different places with different capabilities. Choices are a big part of roleplaying games but as far as engaging combat in ESO there's really only the one (for that matter the quest and other content are very linear without real impactful choices). It matters less in the support roles to an extent but in the context of "real RPG combat" ESO is really more like an FPS.

    It also kind of bears the lie when ZOS makes statements like "play how you want" because it's not that. There's a fairly narrow path of engagement and it's nature is exclusionary of people who'd want to approach it in a different way. We sacrificed a lot of class identity for "play how you want" but it didn't really even come close to meeting that mark.
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »

    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    Not really. I didn't bring the/a HA topic/narrative in here other than to reference a similar functionality or form. Gonna ignore the tone in parenthesis as it's not relevant.

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check

    That's off topic my friend, and regardless of that admirable sentiment, does nothing to assist disabled people or reduce RSI's...

    This approach or one like it adds more potential build combos without hurting the LA builds styles, it helps disabled folks and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement on a technical level or get used to as a player.

    my point was that if your holding a button to light attack or heavy attack, your APM is still going to be higher if your holding the button to light attack

    skills would be on the 1 sec gcd, that is a minimum of 1 button click per second or 60 apm regardless if your light/heavy attacking

    however with heavy attacking, due to the cast time of the heavy (2.1 sec), it effectively is cutting your APM almost in half, which if your trying to advocate support for people with disabled people, is 100% more effective than creating an entirely new method to add light attack auto casting which would actually increase APM compared to a heavy attack weave

    if your looking at the APM per hand, changing to a light attack auto cast system would not at all change the APM for the hand casting skills

    also assuming that the APM is also only paying attention to standing still and not moving, i play with the wasd keys to move and 1-5 number for skills and space for jump, so my left hand is doing about 4x the apm than my right hand (which is only using left/right mouse click and a few extra buttons for stuff like ccbreak, bash, weapon swap, synergy)

    so while total apm may decrease if you change light attack to a hold on a button, overall APM isnt going to change much and is only going to help 1 hand, the hand that will have to still spam skills every 1 sec to go with gcd wont see any change

    the HA builds however, improve APM on both hands, since you only need to use a skill about every 2.5 seconds

    It gives people more build options than JUST HA builds though. And while it doesn't do anything to reduce the hand activating skills it does help it. I kind of liked Soarora's idea of holding skill keys to autocast. In conjunction that could REALLY help disabled folks as you could just hold down the LA auto and your main spammable and they should fire off as quick as they can. As a disabled guy it'd be a heck of a lot easier to press and hold two keys and continue to move around, etc, occasionally stopping one or the other to hit another key, block or whatever. I use a controller so holding RT+ LB as an example to auto LA and fire off (for example) crystal weapon would give me a lot more options to play with. As it stands now yeah, a HA build does reduce the clicks needed by a lot but it is boring and pretty much locks you into one play style. It'd be great to have more build options and not be pinned into one tiny corner of the many sets and skills and classes.

    Heck, press and hold for auto casting skills by themselves would help us...

    if they added hold to cast anything (light attack, skill etc), it would feel like at that point the game is basically playing for you and all you need to do is target and move

    im not trying to bash disabled people who might need that kind of assistance, but at the same time, are you really even playing the game at that point if your basically just holding buttons down?

    thats honestly the equivalent of just using a macro to auto press 1 skill every say 1 second by holding down a button (which is possible to do right now, but would possibly be flagged for cheating)

    if you do auto cast light attack and auto cast skill at the same time, the game is effectively playing and weaving for you, or most likely if they did this, they would disable being able to do more than 1 hold action at a time, effectively blocking weaving entirely and your dmg would be severely worse than just using a HA build

    again im not trying to exclude people, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere between what could be seen as basically botting and the minimum amount of work you need to do for a HA build

    I wasn't talking about HA builds but can see how that could be seen that way. That said unfortunately at the moment the state of combat in ESO -IS- exclusionary - it's not you; it's how combat functions.

    Here's the thing though... It's supposed to be a multiplayer RPG. Most RPG's offer multiple ways of engaging enemies that allow people to do more than button mash to win. In this case there's only the one, spam X, Y and Z to win. That isn't very cohesive to some of the definitive elements of what an RPG is nor does it properly attract players from different places with different capabilities. Choices are a big part of roleplaying games but as far as engaging combat in ESO there's really only the one (for that matter the quest and other content are very linear without real impactful choices). It matters less in the support roles to an extent but in the context of "real RPG combat" ESO is really more like an FPS.

    It also kind of bears the lie when ZOS makes statements like "play how you want" because it's not that. There's a fairly narrow path of engagement and it's nature is exclusionary of people who'd want to approach it in a different way. We sacrificed a lot of class identity for "play how you want" but it didn't really even come close to meeting that mark.

    ive seen it pointed out in another thread that what they really mean with that statement of "play how you want" mainly applies to overland

    theres virtually no mechanics in overland, and everything there is weak enough you could more or less play with any build whatsoever and still be fine

    when you get into group content thats where that starts to become more questionable

    normal group content, i could still see play how you want working here, its very forgiving and if there are any dps checks they are extremely low

    vet content is where that falls apart, because if dps cant pull their weight or pass dps checks, then there is no possible way to clear the content

    there are multiple ways to do builds, not every HA build uses oakensoul, it is possible to do a 2 bar HA build that has a more advanced rotation than an oakenbuild

    i also think "play how you want" means "within the framework of the game" not a "you can do literally anything you want in this game", i think people really like to take anything zos says and greatly over-exaggerate it
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
    ✭✭✭
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »

    it sounds more like this is a "i dont want to be excluded for using a HA build" post honestly, and just trying to drastically overcomplicate light attacking so you can do light attacks by holding the button (which again is what changes it from a light to a heavy attack since the game launched)

    Not really. I didn't bring the/a HA topic/narrative in here other than to reference a similar functionality or form. Gonna ignore the tone in parenthesis as it's not relevant.

    i personally dont see why people even care what build your using, as long as you know the mechanics and can clear content, there is very little in the game which requires a really high dps check

    That's off topic my friend, and regardless of that admirable sentiment, does nothing to assist disabled people or reduce RSI's...

    This approach or one like it adds more potential build combos without hurting the LA builds styles, it helps disabled folks and it wouldn't be all that hard to implement on a technical level or get used to as a player.

    my point was that if your holding a button to light attack or heavy attack, your APM is still going to be higher if your holding the button to light attack

    skills would be on the 1 sec gcd, that is a minimum of 1 button click per second or 60 apm regardless if your light/heavy attacking

    however with heavy attacking, due to the cast time of the heavy (2.1 sec), it effectively is cutting your APM almost in half, which if your trying to advocate support for people with disabled people, is 100% more effective than creating an entirely new method to add light attack auto casting which would actually increase APM compared to a heavy attack weave

    if your looking at the APM per hand, changing to a light attack auto cast system would not at all change the APM for the hand casting skills

    also assuming that the APM is also only paying attention to standing still and not moving, i play with the wasd keys to move and 1-5 number for skills and space for jump, so my left hand is doing about 4x the apm than my right hand (which is only using left/right mouse click and a few extra buttons for stuff like ccbreak, bash, weapon swap, synergy)

    so while total apm may decrease if you change light attack to a hold on a button, overall APM isnt going to change much and is only going to help 1 hand, the hand that will have to still spam skills every 1 sec to go with gcd wont see any change

    the HA builds however, improve APM on both hands, since you only need to use a skill about every 2.5 seconds

    It gives people more build options than JUST HA builds though. And while it doesn't do anything to reduce the hand activating skills it does help it. I kind of liked Soarora's idea of holding skill keys to autocast. In conjunction that could REALLY help disabled folks as you could just hold down the LA auto and your main spammable and they should fire off as quick as they can. As a disabled guy it'd be a heck of a lot easier to press and hold two keys and continue to move around, etc, occasionally stopping one or the other to hit another key, block or whatever. I use a controller so holding RT+ LB as an example to auto LA and fire off (for example) crystal weapon would give me a lot more options to play with. As it stands now yeah, a HA build does reduce the clicks needed by a lot but it is boring and pretty much locks you into one play style. It'd be great to have more build options and not be pinned into one tiny corner of the many sets and skills and classes.

    Heck, press and hold for auto casting skills by themselves would help us...

    if they added hold to cast anything (light attack, skill etc), it would feel like at that point the game is basically playing for you and all you need to do is target and move

    im not trying to bash disabled people who might need that kind of assistance, but at the same time, are you really even playing the game at that point if your basically just holding buttons down?

    thats honestly the equivalent of just using a macro to auto press 1 skill every say 1 second by holding down a button (which is possible to do right now, but would possibly be flagged for cheating)

    if you do auto cast light attack and auto cast skill at the same time, the game is effectively playing and weaving for you, or most likely if they did this, they would disable being able to do more than 1 hold action at a time, effectively blocking weaving entirely and your dmg would be severely worse than just using a HA build

    again im not trying to exclude people, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere between what could be seen as basically botting and the minimum amount of work you need to do for a HA build

    I wasn't talking about HA builds but can see how that could be seen that way. That said unfortunately at the moment the state of combat in ESO -IS- exclusionary - it's not you; it's how combat functions.

    Here's the thing though... It's supposed to be a multiplayer RPG. Most RPG's offer multiple ways of engaging enemies that allow people to do more than button mash to win. In this case there's only the one, spam X, Y and Z to win. That isn't very cohesive to some of the definitive elements of what an RPG is nor does it properly attract players from different places with different capabilities. Choices are a big part of roleplaying games but as far as engaging combat in ESO there's really only the one (for that matter the quest and other content are very linear without real impactful choices). It matters less in the support roles to an extent but in the context of "real RPG combat" ESO is really more like an FPS.

    It also kind of bears the lie when ZOS makes statements like "play how you want" because it's not that. There's a fairly narrow path of engagement and it's nature is exclusionary of people who'd want to approach it in a different way. We sacrificed a lot of class identity for "play how you want" but it didn't really even come close to meeting that mark.

    ive seen it pointed out in another thread that what they really mean with that statement of "play how you want" mainly applies to overland

    theres virtually no mechanics in overland, and everything there is weak enough you could more or less play with any build whatsoever and still be fine

    when you get into group content thats where that starts to become more questionable

    normal group content, i could still see play how you want working here, its very forgiving and if there are any dps checks they are extremely low

    vet content is where that falls apart, because if dps cant pull their weight or pass dps checks, then there is no possible way to clear the content

    there are multiple ways to do builds, not every HA build uses oakensoul, it is possible to do a 2 bar HA build that has a more advanced rotation than an oakenbuild

    i also think "play how you want" means "within the framework of the game" not a "you can do literally anything you want in this game", i think people really like to take anything zos says and greatly over-exaggerate it

    So then rather than inadvertently doing exactly what you're trying not to do, could you please propose something that would achieve the desired effect? I've seen a lot of "nope, can't do that" and other critical commentary but nothing that would actually help - so please, propose something that would create the desired effect? Because you seem to be informed and able to point out potential problems with what I've proposed but don't seem to be offering viable solutions. If you don't mean to exclude disabled people then push forwards some ideas my friend.
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
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    ✭✭✭✭
    without using macros, or autocasting, i dont think there is an "ideal one size fits all" solution

    thats the problem, there is no way to make it totally accessible without basically making the game essentially play for you

    too much autocasting realistically is not any different than macros or botting

    the most ideal solution for a disabled dps player is a HA build, within the way the game is designed that does not effectively fully automate too much, supporting the lower APM you want to keep up with dmg output

    other options i could suggest would be support roles (healing/tanking)

    im not really sure what the goal of is for "accessibility", do you intend for everyone to be able to get 110k dps using literally any build setup?

    the way i see it, this game is already very accessible, normal and overland (80% of all game content) is certainly accessible and doable with literally any build (or even no gear at all)

    not everything is going to be 100% accessible all of the time, i know i dont hit 100k dps with the builds that im running, but i can very easily sit at about 60k on a dummy (in actual content, say a trial, im usually hitting about 30-55k dps but still usually about 11% of the group dps)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
    ✭✭✭
    without using macros, or autocasting, i dont think there is an "ideal one size fits all" solution

    thats the problem, there is no way to make it totally accessible without basically making the game essentially play for you

    too much autocasting realistically is not any different than macros or botting

    the most ideal solution for a disabled dps player is a HA build, within the way the game is designed that does not effectively fully automate too much, supporting the lower APM you want to keep up with dmg output

    other options i could suggest would be support roles (healing/tanking)

    im not really sure what the goal of is for "accessibility", do you intend for everyone to be able to get 110k dps using literally any build setup?

    the way i see it, this game is already very accessible, normal and overland (80% of all game content) is certainly accessible and doable with literally any build (or even no gear at all)

    not everything is going to be 100% accessible all of the time, i know i dont hit 100k dps with the builds that im running, but i can very easily sit at about 60k on a dummy (in actual content, say a trial, im usually hitting about 30-55k dps but still usually about 11% of the group dps)
    I'm not saying you're pushing this but the general feeling from this and other community threads related to this can be summarized below:

    Disabled people are limited to:
    - Being a healer or maybe tank
    - doing overland content (minus bosses)
    - maybe doing some normal non-DLC dungeons
    - play exactly one DPS build, which has been attacked non-stop by gatekeepers, run sellers and content creators since oakensoul came out and is now receiving nerfs because it was still underperforming against traditional builds by at least 30%

    the reasons being:
    - life isn't fair (yup)
    - high skill is limited to the ability to click fast and should be rewarded
    - auto-casting LA's and abilities isn't really playing the game because clicking skill is essential to the enjoyment of the game and it's too close to botting or macros which is cheating.
    - any changes to the games combat mechanics are going to ruin the game because the player base is so competitive that making any accomodations for the disabled players is a serious threat to the rest of the community.

    As far as I'm aware ZOS likes all our money and as much of it as they can get, which leads me to think that the reason M$ is pushing for more accessibility features than ever before is because statistically speaking disabled people are MORE likely to spend money on video games because we don't have the mobility to entertain ourselves as much as abled people do. We sit at home, we try and make do with whatever life offers us and a lot of times that leaves us at home playing games and trying to have social interactions of some kind despite our handicaps making those prospects more limited in nature.

    As far as "accessibility" goes - no, not every build should be made equally. That's never been what I was saying. But there -SHOULD- be a way for someone who can click 100x a minute and someone only capable of clicking 40x a minute being able to glean around the same DPS (within 20-30%) with the same combination of race, class and sets.

    The biggest differentiator in this game currently is physical in nature. Because if I wore Relequen and Pillar of nirn for example and someone who can hit buttons closer to the top APM it's like night and day. It's not a sport. No one's saying a person who's never dribbled a basketball should suddenly be thrown into the NBA but in the same vein there's a difference between competitive sports as a career choice and something that's supposed to be about multiplayer entertainment.

  • N00BxV1
    N00BxV1
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please leave Block alone. It's had enough already... :s

    I'm not against the idea of auto-attack for accessibility. Personally I wouldn't use it but I see how it could be helpful to others. But extreme care needs to be taken when thinking about changing keybinds and gamepad button functionality...

    I think just about every button press, hold and combination is probably already being used for something (on gamepad). The D-Pad Right press to change the active quest is kinda useless IMO since I can just open the Journal and select the active quest, but I'm sure someone out there might find that useful for some reason.

    It would probably just be better if there was an option that you could enable that would make double-tapping the RT (Light Attack) to cause you to start auto-attacking and double-tapping it again would make it stop. At least this way it's adding more functionality instead of changing anything.
    Edited by N00BxV1 on April 25, 2023 1:48AM
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
    ✭✭✭
    N00BxV1 wrote: »
    Please leave Block alone. It's had enough already... :s

    I'm not against the idea of auto-attack for accessibility. Personally I wouldn't use it but I see how it could be helpful to others. But extreme care needs to be taken when thinking about changing keybinds and gamepad button functionality...

    I think just about every button press, hold and combination is probably already being used for something. The D-Pad Right press to change the active quest is kinda useless IMO since I can just open the Journal and select the active quest, but I'm sure someone out there might find that useful for some reason.

    It would probably just be better if there was an option that you could enable that would make double-tapping the RT to cause you to start auto-attacking and double-tapping it again would make it stop. At least this way it's adding more functionality instead of changing anything.

    I'd probably say D-Pad right would be a great toggle because it's pretty useless right now as it stands. I'm not sure how often other people use it but I rarely do.
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    without using macros, or autocasting, i dont think there is an "ideal one size fits all" solution

    thats the problem, there is no way to make it totally accessible without basically making the game essentially play for you

    too much autocasting realistically is not any different than macros or botting

    the most ideal solution for a disabled dps player is a HA build, within the way the game is designed that does not effectively fully automate too much, supporting the lower APM you want to keep up with dmg output

    other options i could suggest would be support roles (healing/tanking)

    im not really sure what the goal of is for "accessibility", do you intend for everyone to be able to get 110k dps using literally any build setup?

    the way i see it, this game is already very accessible, normal and overland (80% of all game content) is certainly accessible and doable with literally any build (or even no gear at all)

    not everything is going to be 100% accessible all of the time, i know i dont hit 100k dps with the builds that im running, but i can very easily sit at about 60k on a dummy (in actual content, say a trial, im usually hitting about 30-55k dps but still usually about 11% of the group dps)
    I'm not saying you're pushing this but the general feeling from this and other community threads related to this can be summarized below:

    Disabled people are limited to:
    - Being a healer or maybe tank
    - doing overland content (minus bosses)
    - maybe doing some normal non-DLC dungeons
    - play exactly one DPS build, which has been attacked non-stop by gatekeepers, run sellers and content creators since oakensoul came out and is now receiving nerfs because it was still underperforming against traditional builds by at least 30%

    the reasons being:
    - life isn't fair (yup)
    - high skill is limited to the ability to click fast and should be rewarded
    - auto-casting LA's and abilities isn't really playing the game because clicking skill is essential to the enjoyment of the game and it's too close to botting or macros which is cheating.
    - any changes to the games combat mechanics are going to ruin the game because the player base is so competitive that making any accomodations for the disabled players is a serious threat to the rest of the community.

    As far as I'm aware ZOS likes all our money and as much of it as they can get, which leads me to think that the reason M$ is pushing for more accessibility features than ever before is because statistically speaking disabled people are MORE likely to spend money on video games because we don't have the mobility to entertain ourselves as much as abled people do. We sit at home, we try and make do with whatever life offers us and a lot of times that leaves us at home playing games and trying to have social interactions of some kind despite our handicaps making those prospects more limited in nature.

    As far as "accessibility" goes - no, not every build should be made equally. That's never been what I was saying. But there -SHOULD- be a way for someone who can click 100x a minute and someone only capable of clicking 40x a minute being able to glean around the same DPS (within 20-30%) with the same combination of race, class and sets.

    The biggest differentiator in this game currently is physical in nature. Because if I wore Relequen and Pillar of nirn for example and someone who can hit buttons closer to the top APM it's like night and day. It's not a sport. No one's saying a person who's never dribbled a basketball should suddenly be thrown into the NBA but in the same vein there's a difference between competitive sports as a career choice and something that's supposed to be about multiplayer entertainment.

    if you say had 2 builds, with 1 doing like 120 apm, and the other doing 40 apm , but the dmg difference is only 20-30%, what would be even the reason to use the 120 APM build unless your like a hardcore scorepusher always running vet HM of the newest most difficult content? thats why i already see the majority of people using HA builds because they are so much easier and still get comparable dmg to a "traditional" build

    i personally have never even used relequen because i see it as too annoying to maintain those stacks, if a mechanic gets in the way its very easy to lose those, sure the numbers look great on a parse using a dummy, but in most real content you cant just sit in 1 spot and parse the boss (maybe some content but not all)

    i think some of the accessibility problems lie within the design of sets themselves, such as relequen, which works best on a 2 bar LA weaving build with good weaving %, because of the incredibly short timer, i normally run 2 bar builds and still dont like the set for this reason

    sets like pillar are very easy to use and just require doing any dmg once every 10 sec, that dont require good weaving to perform optimally

    one of my experimental toons is a mag dk running runecarver in a very dot heavy build, and im able to achieve decent dps, though the rotation is harder than my templar trying to keep up like 8 dots

    but that was my point, i dont have an answer for how to make it accessible without heavily modifying the current game mechanics or adding in like an autocasting system

    i like theory crafting and build experimentation, but a lot of people just want something that works, and if theres 2 options that both do 80k+ dps, but one is exponentially easier (in the current state the HA build), people are going to gravitate towards that

    you dont NEED oaken to run a HA build, there are ways to do a 2 bar HA build (i was actually brainstorming one for my mag necro because im not really happy with its current build and with it looking like they are nerfing plaguebreak for pve he really wont be useful in his current state)

    i do have problems with people who gatekeep without good reason though, and honestly i dont know why people hate on HA/oaken builds, as long as your clearing the content it shouldnt matter what build you are running
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
    ✭✭✭
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    without using macros, or autocasting, i dont think there is an "ideal one size fits all" solution

    thats the problem, there is no way to make it totally accessible without basically making the game essentially play for you

    too much autocasting realistically is not any different than macros or botting

    the most ideal solution for a disabled dps player is a HA build, within the way the game is designed that does not effectively fully automate too much, supporting the lower APM you want to keep up with dmg output

    other options i could suggest would be support roles (healing/tanking)

    im not really sure what the goal of is for "accessibility", do you intend for everyone to be able to get 110k dps using literally any build setup?

    the way i see it, this game is already very accessible, normal and overland (80% of all game content) is certainly accessible and doable with literally any build (or even no gear at all)

    not everything is going to be 100% accessible all of the time, i know i dont hit 100k dps with the builds that im running, but i can very easily sit at about 60k on a dummy (in actual content, say a trial, im usually hitting about 30-55k dps but still usually about 11% of the group dps)
    I'm not saying you're pushing this but the general feeling from this and other community threads related to this can be summarized below:

    Disabled people are limited to:
    - Being a healer or maybe tank
    - doing overland content (minus bosses)
    - maybe doing some normal non-DLC dungeons
    - play exactly one DPS build, which has been attacked non-stop by gatekeepers, run sellers and content creators since oakensoul came out and is now receiving nerfs because it was still underperforming against traditional builds by at least 30%

    the reasons being:
    - life isn't fair (yup)
    - high skill is limited to the ability to click fast and should be rewarded
    - auto-casting LA's and abilities isn't really playing the game because clicking skill is essential to the enjoyment of the game and it's too close to botting or macros which is cheating.
    - any changes to the games combat mechanics are going to ruin the game because the player base is so competitive that making any accomodations for the disabled players is a serious threat to the rest of the community.

    As far as I'm aware ZOS likes all our money and as much of it as they can get, which leads me to think that the reason M$ is pushing for more accessibility features than ever before is because statistically speaking disabled people are MORE likely to spend money on video games because we don't have the mobility to entertain ourselves as much as abled people do. We sit at home, we try and make do with whatever life offers us and a lot of times that leaves us at home playing games and trying to have social interactions of some kind despite our handicaps making those prospects more limited in nature.

    As far as "accessibility" goes - no, not every build should be made equally. That's never been what I was saying. But there -SHOULD- be a way for someone who can click 100x a minute and someone only capable of clicking 40x a minute being able to glean around the same DPS (within 20-30%) with the same combination of race, class and sets.

    The biggest differentiator in this game currently is physical in nature. Because if I wore Relequen and Pillar of nirn for example and someone who can hit buttons closer to the top APM it's like night and day. It's not a sport. No one's saying a person who's never dribbled a basketball should suddenly be thrown into the NBA but in the same vein there's a difference between competitive sports as a career choice and something that's supposed to be about multiplayer entertainment.

    if you say had 2 builds, with 1 doing like 120 apm, and the other doing 40 apm , but the dmg difference is only 20-30%, what would be even the reason to use the 120 APM build unless your like a hardcore scorepusher always running vet HM of the newest most difficult content? thats why i already see the majority of people using HA builds because they are so much easier and still get comparable dmg to a "traditional" build

    i personally have never even used relequen because i see it as too annoying to maintain those stacks, if a mechanic gets in the way its very easy to lose those, sure the numbers look great on a parse using a dummy, but in most real content you cant just sit in 1 spot and parse the boss (maybe some content but not all)

    i think some of the accessibility problems lie within the design of sets themselves, such as relequen, which works best on a 2 bar LA weaving build with good weaving %, because of the incredibly short timer, i normally run 2 bar builds and still dont like the set for this reason

    sets like pillar are very easy to use and just require doing any dmg once every 10 sec, that dont require good weaving to perform optimally

    one of my experimental toons is a mag dk running runecarver in a very dot heavy build, and im able to achieve decent dps, though the rotation is harder than my templar trying to keep up like 8 dots

    but that was my point, i dont have an answer for how to make it accessible without heavily modifying the current game mechanics or adding in like an autocasting system

    i like theory crafting and build experimentation, but a lot of people just want something that works, and if theres 2 options that both do 80k+ dps, but one is exponentially easier (in the current state the HA build), people are going to gravitate towards that

    you dont NEED oaken to run a HA build, there are ways to do a 2 bar HA build (i was actually brainstorming one for my mag necro because im not really happy with its current build and with it looking like they are nerfing plaguebreak for pve he really wont be useful in his current state)

    i do have problems with people who gatekeep without good reason though, and honestly i dont know why people hate on HA/oaken builds, as long as your clearing the content it shouldnt matter what build you are running

    I mean there's a solution that absolutely would fix the issue but everyone poops themselves when it gets mentioned... Kill weaving altogether.
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    without using macros, or autocasting, i dont think there is an "ideal one size fits all" solution

    thats the problem, there is no way to make it totally accessible without basically making the game essentially play for you

    too much autocasting realistically is not any different than macros or botting

    the most ideal solution for a disabled dps player is a HA build, within the way the game is designed that does not effectively fully automate too much, supporting the lower APM you want to keep up with dmg output

    other options i could suggest would be support roles (healing/tanking)

    im not really sure what the goal of is for "accessibility", do you intend for everyone to be able to get 110k dps using literally any build setup?

    the way i see it, this game is already very accessible, normal and overland (80% of all game content) is certainly accessible and doable with literally any build (or even no gear at all)

    not everything is going to be 100% accessible all of the time, i know i dont hit 100k dps with the builds that im running, but i can very easily sit at about 60k on a dummy (in actual content, say a trial, im usually hitting about 30-55k dps but still usually about 11% of the group dps)
    I'm not saying you're pushing this but the general feeling from this and other community threads related to this can be summarized below:

    Disabled people are limited to:
    - Being a healer or maybe tank
    - doing overland content (minus bosses)
    - maybe doing some normal non-DLC dungeons
    - play exactly one DPS build, which has been attacked non-stop by gatekeepers, run sellers and content creators since oakensoul came out and is now receiving nerfs because it was still underperforming against traditional builds by at least 30%

    the reasons being:
    - life isn't fair (yup)
    - high skill is limited to the ability to click fast and should be rewarded
    - auto-casting LA's and abilities isn't really playing the game because clicking skill is essential to the enjoyment of the game and it's too close to botting or macros which is cheating.
    - any changes to the games combat mechanics are going to ruin the game because the player base is so competitive that making any accomodations for the disabled players is a serious threat to the rest of the community.

    As far as I'm aware ZOS likes all our money and as much of it as they can get, which leads me to think that the reason M$ is pushing for more accessibility features than ever before is because statistically speaking disabled people are MORE likely to spend money on video games because we don't have the mobility to entertain ourselves as much as abled people do. We sit at home, we try and make do with whatever life offers us and a lot of times that leaves us at home playing games and trying to have social interactions of some kind despite our handicaps making those prospects more limited in nature.

    As far as "accessibility" goes - no, not every build should be made equally. That's never been what I was saying. But there -SHOULD- be a way for someone who can click 100x a minute and someone only capable of clicking 40x a minute being able to glean around the same DPS (within 20-30%) with the same combination of race, class and sets.

    The biggest differentiator in this game currently is physical in nature. Because if I wore Relequen and Pillar of nirn for example and someone who can hit buttons closer to the top APM it's like night and day. It's not a sport. No one's saying a person who's never dribbled a basketball should suddenly be thrown into the NBA but in the same vein there's a difference between competitive sports as a career choice and something that's supposed to be about multiplayer entertainment.

    if you say had 2 builds, with 1 doing like 120 apm, and the other doing 40 apm , but the dmg difference is only 20-30%, what would be even the reason to use the 120 APM build unless your like a hardcore scorepusher always running vet HM of the newest most difficult content? thats why i already see the majority of people using HA builds because they are so much easier and still get comparable dmg to a "traditional" build

    i personally have never even used relequen because i see it as too annoying to maintain those stacks, if a mechanic gets in the way its very easy to lose those, sure the numbers look great on a parse using a dummy, but in most real content you cant just sit in 1 spot and parse the boss (maybe some content but not all)

    i think some of the accessibility problems lie within the design of sets themselves, such as relequen, which works best on a 2 bar LA weaving build with good weaving %, because of the incredibly short timer, i normally run 2 bar builds and still dont like the set for this reason

    sets like pillar are very easy to use and just require doing any dmg once every 10 sec, that dont require good weaving to perform optimally

    one of my experimental toons is a mag dk running runecarver in a very dot heavy build, and im able to achieve decent dps, though the rotation is harder than my templar trying to keep up like 8 dots

    but that was my point, i dont have an answer for how to make it accessible without heavily modifying the current game mechanics or adding in like an autocasting system

    i like theory crafting and build experimentation, but a lot of people just want something that works, and if theres 2 options that both do 80k+ dps, but one is exponentially easier (in the current state the HA build), people are going to gravitate towards that

    you dont NEED oaken to run a HA build, there are ways to do a 2 bar HA build (i was actually brainstorming one for my mag necro because im not really happy with its current build and with it looking like they are nerfing plaguebreak for pve he really wont be useful in his current state)

    i do have problems with people who gatekeep without good reason though, and honestly i dont know why people hate on HA/oaken builds, as long as your clearing the content it shouldnt matter what build you are running

    I mean there's a solution that absolutely would fix the issue but everyone poops themselves when it gets mentioned... Kill weaving altogether.

    i think thats why they are adding that new mythic which gives a lot of flat buffs, but nullifies your dmg from light and heavy attacks so the focus is more on your skill usage than weaving, which i think it has potential if it has some issues that get worked out with the dmg buff
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
  • nokturnihs
    nokturnihs
    ✭✭✭
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    without using macros, or autocasting, i dont think there is an "ideal one size fits all" solution

    thats the problem, there is no way to make it totally accessible without basically making the game essentially play for you

    too much autocasting realistically is not any different than macros or botting

    the most ideal solution for a disabled dps player is a HA build, within the way the game is designed that does not effectively fully automate too much, supporting the lower APM you want to keep up with dmg output

    other options i could suggest would be support roles (healing/tanking)

    im not really sure what the goal of is for "accessibility", do you intend for everyone to be able to get 110k dps using literally any build setup?

    the way i see it, this game is already very accessible, normal and overland (80% of all game content) is certainly accessible and doable with literally any build (or even no gear at all)

    not everything is going to be 100% accessible all of the time, i know i dont hit 100k dps with the builds that im running, but i can very easily sit at about 60k on a dummy (in actual content, say a trial, im usually hitting about 30-55k dps but still usually about 11% of the group dps)
    I'm not saying you're pushing this but the general feeling from this and other community threads related to this can be summarized below:

    Disabled people are limited to:
    - Being a healer or maybe tank
    - doing overland content (minus bosses)
    - maybe doing some normal non-DLC dungeons
    - play exactly one DPS build, which has been attacked non-stop by gatekeepers, run sellers and content creators since oakensoul came out and is now receiving nerfs because it was still underperforming against traditional builds by at least 30%

    the reasons being:
    - life isn't fair (yup)
    - high skill is limited to the ability to click fast and should be rewarded
    - auto-casting LA's and abilities isn't really playing the game because clicking skill is essential to the enjoyment of the game and it's too close to botting or macros which is cheating.
    - any changes to the games combat mechanics are going to ruin the game because the player base is so competitive that making any accomodations for the disabled players is a serious threat to the rest of the community.

    As far as I'm aware ZOS likes all our money and as much of it as they can get, which leads me to think that the reason M$ is pushing for more accessibility features than ever before is because statistically speaking disabled people are MORE likely to spend money on video games because we don't have the mobility to entertain ourselves as much as abled people do. We sit at home, we try and make do with whatever life offers us and a lot of times that leaves us at home playing games and trying to have social interactions of some kind despite our handicaps making those prospects more limited in nature.

    As far as "accessibility" goes - no, not every build should be made equally. That's never been what I was saying. But there -SHOULD- be a way for someone who can click 100x a minute and someone only capable of clicking 40x a minute being able to glean around the same DPS (within 20-30%) with the same combination of race, class and sets.

    The biggest differentiator in this game currently is physical in nature. Because if I wore Relequen and Pillar of nirn for example and someone who can hit buttons closer to the top APM it's like night and day. It's not a sport. No one's saying a person who's never dribbled a basketball should suddenly be thrown into the NBA but in the same vein there's a difference between competitive sports as a career choice and something that's supposed to be about multiplayer entertainment.

    if you say had 2 builds, with 1 doing like 120 apm, and the other doing 40 apm , but the dmg difference is only 20-30%, what would be even the reason to use the 120 APM build unless your like a hardcore scorepusher always running vet HM of the newest most difficult content? thats why i already see the majority of people using HA builds because they are so much easier and still get comparable dmg to a "traditional" build

    i personally have never even used relequen because i see it as too annoying to maintain those stacks, if a mechanic gets in the way its very easy to lose those, sure the numbers look great on a parse using a dummy, but in most real content you cant just sit in 1 spot and parse the boss (maybe some content but not all)

    i think some of the accessibility problems lie within the design of sets themselves, such as relequen, which works best on a 2 bar LA weaving build with good weaving %, because of the incredibly short timer, i normally run 2 bar builds and still dont like the set for this reason

    sets like pillar are very easy to use and just require doing any dmg once every 10 sec, that dont require good weaving to perform optimally

    one of my experimental toons is a mag dk running runecarver in a very dot heavy build, and im able to achieve decent dps, though the rotation is harder than my templar trying to keep up like 8 dots

    but that was my point, i dont have an answer for how to make it accessible without heavily modifying the current game mechanics or adding in like an autocasting system

    i like theory crafting and build experimentation, but a lot of people just want something that works, and if theres 2 options that both do 80k+ dps, but one is exponentially easier (in the current state the HA build), people are going to gravitate towards that

    you dont NEED oaken to run a HA build, there are ways to do a 2 bar HA build (i was actually brainstorming one for my mag necro because im not really happy with its current build and with it looking like they are nerfing plaguebreak for pve he really wont be useful in his current state)

    i do have problems with people who gatekeep without good reason though, and honestly i dont know why people hate on HA/oaken builds, as long as your clearing the content it shouldnt matter what build you are running

    I mean there's a solution that absolutely would fix the issue but everyone poops themselves when it gets mentioned... Kill weaving altogether.

    i think thats why they are adding that new mythic which gives a lot of flat buffs, but nullifies your dmg from light and heavy attacks so the focus is more on your skill usage than weaving, which i think it has potential if it has some issues that get worked out with the dmg buff

    Which is true but the problem is it doesn't do anything to reduce the need to keep up buffs given by OAKEN and at the same time makes the one build disabled folks can use inaccessible because their damage is reduced by 99%. It would need to be significantly buffed to compensate yeah?
  • Necrotech_Master
    Necrotech_Master
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    nokturnihs wrote: »
    without using macros, or autocasting, i dont think there is an "ideal one size fits all" solution

    thats the problem, there is no way to make it totally accessible without basically making the game essentially play for you

    too much autocasting realistically is not any different than macros or botting

    the most ideal solution for a disabled dps player is a HA build, within the way the game is designed that does not effectively fully automate too much, supporting the lower APM you want to keep up with dmg output

    other options i could suggest would be support roles (healing/tanking)

    im not really sure what the goal of is for "accessibility", do you intend for everyone to be able to get 110k dps using literally any build setup?

    the way i see it, this game is already very accessible, normal and overland (80% of all game content) is certainly accessible and doable with literally any build (or even no gear at all)

    not everything is going to be 100% accessible all of the time, i know i dont hit 100k dps with the builds that im running, but i can very easily sit at about 60k on a dummy (in actual content, say a trial, im usually hitting about 30-55k dps but still usually about 11% of the group dps)
    I'm not saying you're pushing this but the general feeling from this and other community threads related to this can be summarized below:

    Disabled people are limited to:
    - Being a healer or maybe tank
    - doing overland content (minus bosses)
    - maybe doing some normal non-DLC dungeons
    - play exactly one DPS build, which has been attacked non-stop by gatekeepers, run sellers and content creators since oakensoul came out and is now receiving nerfs because it was still underperforming against traditional builds by at least 30%

    the reasons being:
    - life isn't fair (yup)
    - high skill is limited to the ability to click fast and should be rewarded
    - auto-casting LA's and abilities isn't really playing the game because clicking skill is essential to the enjoyment of the game and it's too close to botting or macros which is cheating.
    - any changes to the games combat mechanics are going to ruin the game because the player base is so competitive that making any accomodations for the disabled players is a serious threat to the rest of the community.

    As far as I'm aware ZOS likes all our money and as much of it as they can get, which leads me to think that the reason M$ is pushing for more accessibility features than ever before is because statistically speaking disabled people are MORE likely to spend money on video games because we don't have the mobility to entertain ourselves as much as abled people do. We sit at home, we try and make do with whatever life offers us and a lot of times that leaves us at home playing games and trying to have social interactions of some kind despite our handicaps making those prospects more limited in nature.

    As far as "accessibility" goes - no, not every build should be made equally. That's never been what I was saying. But there -SHOULD- be a way for someone who can click 100x a minute and someone only capable of clicking 40x a minute being able to glean around the same DPS (within 20-30%) with the same combination of race, class and sets.

    The biggest differentiator in this game currently is physical in nature. Because if I wore Relequen and Pillar of nirn for example and someone who can hit buttons closer to the top APM it's like night and day. It's not a sport. No one's saying a person who's never dribbled a basketball should suddenly be thrown into the NBA but in the same vein there's a difference between competitive sports as a career choice and something that's supposed to be about multiplayer entertainment.

    if you say had 2 builds, with 1 doing like 120 apm, and the other doing 40 apm , but the dmg difference is only 20-30%, what would be even the reason to use the 120 APM build unless your like a hardcore scorepusher always running vet HM of the newest most difficult content? thats why i already see the majority of people using HA builds because they are so much easier and still get comparable dmg to a "traditional" build

    i personally have never even used relequen because i see it as too annoying to maintain those stacks, if a mechanic gets in the way its very easy to lose those, sure the numbers look great on a parse using a dummy, but in most real content you cant just sit in 1 spot and parse the boss (maybe some content but not all)

    i think some of the accessibility problems lie within the design of sets themselves, such as relequen, which works best on a 2 bar LA weaving build with good weaving %, because of the incredibly short timer, i normally run 2 bar builds and still dont like the set for this reason

    sets like pillar are very easy to use and just require doing any dmg once every 10 sec, that dont require good weaving to perform optimally

    one of my experimental toons is a mag dk running runecarver in a very dot heavy build, and im able to achieve decent dps, though the rotation is harder than my templar trying to keep up like 8 dots

    but that was my point, i dont have an answer for how to make it accessible without heavily modifying the current game mechanics or adding in like an autocasting system

    i like theory crafting and build experimentation, but a lot of people just want something that works, and if theres 2 options that both do 80k+ dps, but one is exponentially easier (in the current state the HA build), people are going to gravitate towards that

    you dont NEED oaken to run a HA build, there are ways to do a 2 bar HA build (i was actually brainstorming one for my mag necro because im not really happy with its current build and with it looking like they are nerfing plaguebreak for pve he really wont be useful in his current state)

    i do have problems with people who gatekeep without good reason though, and honestly i dont know why people hate on HA/oaken builds, as long as your clearing the content it shouldnt matter what build you are running

    I mean there's a solution that absolutely would fix the issue but everyone poops themselves when it gets mentioned... Kill weaving altogether.

    i think thats why they are adding that new mythic which gives a lot of flat buffs, but nullifies your dmg from light and heavy attacks so the focus is more on your skill usage than weaving, which i think it has potential if it has some issues that get worked out with the dmg buff

    Which is true but the problem is it doesn't do anything to reduce the need to keep up buffs given by OAKEN and at the same time makes the one build disabled folks can use inaccessible because their damage is reduced by 99%. It would need to be significantly buffed to compensate yeah?

    the thing is you dont need all the buffs from oaken, if your planning on using the new mythic, you wouldnt need empower either

    i think it would be possible to use oaken without a HA build too, but you would need a good spammable option at a minimum and then 3-4 dots

    the main problem with the new mythic is that its dmg bonus is not being applied to all dmg, but if it was working, it would potentially be slightly better than weaving (if an avg parse shows about 9% of dmg is from light attacks) the mythic would be providing 15%, so your loss of dmg from light attack wont matter unless your trying to use some kind of set like relequen which is reliant on light attack regardless (this is more of a "set design problem" than weaving, and i would recommend just using a different set entirely, you dont need it to get good dmg)
    plays PC/NA
    handle @Necrotech_Master
    active player since april 2014
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