The State of Necromancer in PvP (it's not good)

strepsels

A new PTS has swept in and once again Necromancer and the feedback relating to it has been ignored. Whilst the buff to skull was appreciated (I will comment on this skill in a bit) this buff does not sufficiently address the issues of Necro that are currently present in PvP and I aim to explain my thoughts, and the thoughts of others which I have collated, in this thread. Please note I am only going to comment on Necromancer in PvP and not PvE - I will also mostly comment on Magicka-based Necro however a lot of what I will suggest does still relate to a Stamina-based spec.

The Buff to Skull:



Whilst the buff to this skill is appreciated, and I do intend on giving it a shot, the core issues of this skill still remain. The skull projectile is still far too slow, especially when compared to skills of similair ilk such as Crushing Shock or Cliff Racer (though this skill is also fairly slow). An increased travel time on this skill would be greatly beneficial as currently this skill is very easy to dodge and predict at ranged - at melee this is not a huge issue however this skill is classed as ranged and as such should be accomodated to suit that playstyle.

I would also possibly suggest adding some sort of small buff to each stack of this skill (similair to Molten Whip). I would suggest a small crit damage buff, maybe 5% per stack. This would make the skill combo more nicely with Necro's crit passive in the Grave Lord tree as currently Necro, despite having a massive 8% crit chance per Grave lord skill in execute, does not have any bonuses to crit damage (this issue is very similair to what we see on magsorc currently). This would just help the skill stand out a bit more and give it some unique flavour. If Molten Whip can have a permenant 300 weapon damage then I see no reason why skull cannot have crit damage attached to it.

Major Sorcery & Brutality:

The issue of no Major Sorcery/Brutality is unique to Necro as currently every single class (including Arcanist) has some skill which grants them this essential buff. I really see no reason why Necro cannot have this buff, it is essential to every build and currently Necro either has to slot a very average skill like Degeneration (Necro already has extremely tight bar space issues and this skill is not great) or is forced into 2H and Momentum, further removing build diversity or use the very outdated Spell/Weapon Alliance potions to gain this essential buff. Necro already suffers greatly with Hybrid sustain and the lack of Sorcery/Brutality contributes greatly to this as being able to run tri-potions would be of huge help to the class.

My suggestion would not be to attach this buff to a skill (and if I did I would probably put it on Healing Tether) but to put the buff onto a passive. Similair to Nightblade's free Major Resolve via passive Necromancer would gain Major Sorcery/Brutality via. a passive. I would suggest the "Death Gleaning" passive. This passive really serves very little purpose in PvP and I cannot see any use in PvE outside of wiping trash stacks. I would suggest it would proc via. casting an ability on a corpse and you could even have the passive apply to allies, such as the Mountain's Blessing passive on DK. This would give Necro a "unique" buff that it could offer to group too, allowing for PvE and PvP diversity. See below.

Current Version:


My Version:


Obviously these numbers and how the skill would function are not final and it is up to ZOS to tweak this how they best see fit.

Summoner's Armour:

This skill is extremely redundant now. A large portion of cost reduction for the same skill's this skill applies to is covered in the "Reusable Parts" passive, and this armour buff just feels extremely underwhelming. I would simply suggest adding some sort of ramping extra % damage effect to it. This skill should feel impactful and frankly I don't feel like a "Summoner" when I use it. If I were to change this skill I would give it a ramping damage effect per corpse used whilst the armour buff is up, up to a maximum of course. Numbers could look something like this:

2% additional damage per skill used on a corpse whilst the armour buff is up, up to a maximum of 10% (could do lower even). The additional damage would reset once the skill has been recasted, meaning you cannot maintain 10% damage at all times. If 10% seems too much you could half it to 5%. This would not necesarily guarantee you get all stacks either, as the skill only lasts 20 seconds and you would need to use 5 corpse skills in that time, which is not always realistic. This could even encourage synergy between Necromancer groups as they could coordinate corpses in order to get a small damage buff.

Beckoning Armour (the pull morph) can remain as is - I assume this skill is still used in PvE and being able to differentiate between PvP and PvE morphs would be great.

Major Prophecy/Savagery:

Not much to say here, another essential buff that Necro does not have access to. This could go on a skill, probably Mortal Coil again and could last for 12 seconds (the length of the skill) however the buff would retain if the tether was broken.

Ghost/Mender:

This was perhaps one of the most over nerfed skills in recent history. Intensive Mender was too strong before the nerf, there is no denying that, but the current change to this skill was very over the top. I would not never suggest reverting the skill however a small buff to its healing output would be much appreciated. Also making Spirit Guardian unkillable again would be a massive help to Necro in open world, this "kill" mechanic completely ruins the flow of gameplay and has no place in this game. This skill is also fairly buggy as it can ocasionally run off and refuse to heal you.

What would I nerf?:

Disdain Harm. This passive makes no sense ever since the DoT changes last year. The DoT damage passive (Rapid Rot) was nerfed to 10% whilst the DoT mitigation passive was kept at 15%. This is just too much (always has been). Just reduce it to 10% or even 6% to match current CP levels, there is no reason for Necromancer to have this over the top mitigation in my eyes.

Conclusion:

To conclude, these are some of the changes that I would personally make to Necromancer in order to boost its viability in PvP. There are other changes that I would see necessary for the class, such as the addition of a proper CC (the current options are extremely lackluster and serve no purpose in any content). I also would like to see a viable DoT skill on this class as currently the only DoT is damage tether which is by far the most useless damage skill currently in PvP. I also have no desire to see Harmony return to the class - it was very overtuned however a rework of Boneyard is definitely necessary - though I do not see this as a pressing issue.

*edited for grammer corrections*

Melzo

The main mechanic of the necromancer is the absorption of the corpse. But the absorption of the troupe is the mechanic of the limiting necromancer but does not strengthen it in any way. Yes, you share the skills for free, but you can't use the skill if you don't have a corpse. In other classes, they spend mana for a place to absorb corpses and at the same time receive a larger bonus for analogous skills. Consuming a corpse also does not enhance the necromancer in any way in terms of damage. If absorbing runes from an arcanist enhances his skills, but you don't get anything for absorbing corpses. Skull, blastbones,mage skeleton are not enhanced in any way by absorbing a corpse. Yes, there is a skill that enhances the mage skeleton, but it increases by 1000 damage for 10 seconds, which is 5 hits. You literally deal 5k damage in 10 seconds. In pvp, this value is halved. Given the armor, you will be able to strengthen your mage skeleton and it will deal 2000 damage in 10 seconds....

The necromancer has two skills that deal dot damage in an area. They need to be deleted and a new one created. These two skills literally don't fit into any combo. The entire Necromancer class is designed for PvE content only.

All three ultimates are useless in small fights.

You can take a long time to disassemble the necromancer's gems, but let's be honest. The necromancer does not need various general buffs. If you try, you can get all the buffs you need. There are other classes that can give you these buffs. Poisons, sets, general skills, and other classes in the group. All a necromancer needs is a general, adequate mechanic. And while it is not there, no matter what buffs the necromancer would receive, he would still be a *** village and not a class. You can go into any other game and see how cool the necromancer is there and then go into the teso and cry. By the way, the arcanist is very well developed. It's obvious that they tried hard on it. Even if he gets a nerf, he has interesting mechanics, but when developing a necromancer, the developers acted carelessly.

If it goes on like this, I'll just delete the game like many before me did. I don't need any dungeons or trials and I'm ready to pay money, but not for the fact that I'm obviously being ***.For three years of playing, each patch only upset me.

Faulgor

I agree. I'm inclined to tell ZOS that they should first finish their Necro before they can have another class, like scolding a kid that wants a cookie before dinner.

Also, Templars don't have Major Sorcery, either. Major Brutality was added to jabs recently, but nobody uses that anymore so ...

strepsels

Faulgor wrote: »

I agree. I'm inclined to tell ZOS that they should first finish their Necro before they can have another class, like scolding a kid that wants a cookie before dinner.

Also, Templars don't have Major Sorcery, either. Major Brutality was added to jabs recently, but nobody uses that anymore so ...

Biting Jabs grants both, though I see your point as jabs is fairly weak right now imo.

GrigorijMalahevich

Totally agree!

PvP Magicka Necromancer has the worst offensive toolkit of any class by far!
Harmony nerf
Major vuln nerf
Mag blastbones essentially has no secondary effect since the damage modifier doesn't work now that blastbones doesn't run to the target.
Mag skulls are very slow spammable and have inferior secondary effects compared to other spammable options such as Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon, and even the stam skulls.
The Skeletal Arcanist deals incredibly low damage after battlespirit and doesn't target who you're immediately trying to kill.
Mystic siphon is completely useless in PvP.
Hungry Scythe from the Bone Tyrant tree just doesn't do enough damage to warrant use.
Despite having a DOT damage passive, mag necros don't have a single viable DOT for PvP in their class trees
Mag necros have no class access to major sorcery OR major prophecy.

CameraBeardThePirate

Necro's biggest issue is simply an underwhelming class kit. Missing 2 vital buffs (crit+power) means you either need to run Power Pots or both Degeneration and Camo Hunter/Mage Light. While the buff to skulls is very nice (venom skull might be viable now in melee range?), the projectile is still far too slow and weaving it feels awful because of the varying animations that play with each stack. They lack an offensive stun, and lack an execute. Having to outsource all of these skills already puts you at 5 skills that are non-class skills, meaning whatever build you're putting together will be lacking in class passives. Pets are inconsistent and don't even follow the game's own rules for pets (they cannot be commanded with the command pet keybind). Corpse gameplay is clunky and awkward, and riddled with bugs. For example, casting a tether on a player you just killed shouldn't end if the player immediately respawns; it feels awful to waste a cast like that. Animate Blastbones doesn't count as a Corpse Consumption ability (despite doing just that) which means you can't even see the corpses you need to target with the ultimate unless you have a second corpse consumption ability on that bar. Don't even get me started on the fact that since you cannot command Necro pets, the 3 blastbones summoned by this ult will often expire without ever leaping an enemy a solid 40% of the time, wasting over 300 ult charge (an actual estimation without hyperbole - I've used this ultimate quite a lot).

Necro only really needs small tweaks; the problem is it needs quite a few small tweaks.

katorga

Class is ruined except for casual PVE at this point.

Blastbones STILL fails to function more oftent than not.

Additionally, for pvp, it cannot work on targets around keeps. My NB can fire a bow proc from wall down to a target (and hit for 2-3x the damage of BB). BB, nope.

Most of the passives are tied to having Necro skills on the bar, but really only three of the skills are worth slotting.

Greek_Hellspawn

My suggestions would be:

Skulls travel time same as force pulse.

Magicka blastbones applies major breach.

Arcanist/archer provide major sorc/brut and minor courage.

Change colossus to a target ultimate like ferocious leap so you can't accidentally miss, and reduce cost to at least 200/or make it that it pulls enemies like dark convergence also reduce cost to 200.

Bone totem stuns instantly, move the synergy to the actual ability, so instant stun + minor vulnerability + damage over time, remove the synergy.

Change scythe into a execute that scales like executioner/killer's blade at 50% hp.

Make siphon tethers cost magicka/stamina and change them to a single target cast so the class has access to a sticky dot.

propertyOfUndefined

Imho, what the class needs is a reliable way to spend corpses for offensive purposes. The siphoning skill is next to useless in pvp because it relies too heavily on targets being stationary, which they almost never are. Why not make the damage radiate from the necromancer himself, or from a wide area around the corpse at least? Perhaps even give it a snare? Changes like this would have no impact on pve, but could go a long way in helping the class excel in pvp.

The class generates ult really well, but has nothing really worthwhile to spend it on since the colossus skill was nerfed so many times - albeit indirectly. Give the class an offensive ult worth using in pvp - perhaps a morph of the res ult that can be used to detonate all corpses in an area. Something like this would have a high skill cap and would play nicely with the corpse mechanics.

The class has lost its pvp identity. It just isn't fun to play anymore.

CameraBeardThePirate

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Necromancer is struggling a lot, and while the change to Skulls might make the Venom Skull morph viable (in melee range), the skill still has major functional issues; the projectile is far too slow, and because the skill has three distinct animations it is much harder to weave.

The good news: Necro really doesn't need much; they just need a few things every other class already has access to, and maybe a few QoL changes to corpse/pet gameplay.

POSSIBLE ADDITIONS TO THE CLASS

The only things Necro really needs are basic buffs/skill types that every other class has access to. Necro lacks:
- Major Sorcery/Brutality
- Major Prophecy/Savagery
- An Execute ability (The Death Knell passive is decent, but without a reason to use many Grave Lord abilities the usefulness of the passive is diminished)
- An on demand stun (Bone Totem was already meh, and it's still bugged and often misses the first fear tick, meaning it doesn't stun for an entire 4 seconds. Beckoning Armor's recent buff makes it a great defensive stun, but it's still defensive in nature)
- Movement or a Gap Closer (every other class either has class snare removal or a gap closer of some sort. This one isn't nearly as important at the others but I figured I'd mention it nonetheless)

As a disclaimer, I dont think every single one of these should be added - this is merely to highlight the fact that they miss out on quite a bit that other classes have. This has the effect of forcing you to outsource a lot of abilities to non-class skills, meaning you miss out on class passives (as well as diminishing the "feel" of playing a necromancer). Adding even 1 or 2 of these things to their class kit would help even out the field for build crafting quite a bit.

QUALITY OF LIFE IMPROVEMENTS

- Corpse Gameplay Improvements (Things like the aforementioned wasted tether casts when a recently killed enemy respawns make the core crux of the class feel too micro-managey. Some of the corpse abilities are very powerful - the tethers recently got a nice buff. Other areas of corpse gameplay took a hit at the same time however - the fact that Arcanist/Archer last longer now means that you can't create new corpses as fast, as you have to wait half the duration of the ability. Corpses disappear too quickly in the heat of a fight)
- Single Target Sticky DoT (Necro has 2 DoT passives, yet for mobile boss fights and the vast majority of PvP scenarios, they get very little use out of their extra DoT damage since they only have 2 Class DoTs - both AoE, and one of which can only be used on a corpse. A sticky DoT would go a long way at helping this class. Additionally, Arcanist and Archer should count as DoTs and not direct damage like they do presently in order to get more use out of this passive.)
- Pet Improvements (As mentioned before, pets break a lot of rules in this game - necro pets even moreso. A lot of these rules are extremely outdated. For example, I don't see any reason why pets shouldn't be allowed to proc sets anymore. It needlessly hurts Sorc, Necro, and to a lesser extent Warden. Necro is already tight on bar space, and having to consider which skills to slot in order to proc sets further complicates things. Pet damage and Healing numbers should also be counted on the BG scoreboards - addons like Recount and Combat Metrics can already do this, so I see no reason why scoreboards shouldn't do the same. Blastbones has vastly improved targeting than it had in years prior, but recasting the ability should de-summon it to help fix situations where blastbones gets stuck, preventing you from casting the skill again for 6 seconds. Necro pets should be commandable - it feels awful to watch your Arcanist stand right in front of someone, not attacking. It feels even worse to save up 325 ult charge just to summon 3 sleeping blastbones that have no interest in attacking an enemy.)


All of that was a long post to say this: Necro needs basic quality of life improvements and more reason to use their currently inconsistent or mediocre class skills, as their lack of buffs/utility and the inconsistency of their class skills forces them to use a large amount of non-class skills. This hinders their ceiling, complicates buildcrafting, and hurts the fantasy of playing a Necromancer.

Posted this in the other post. Necro doesn't need a ton - they're just overly complicated to play and their class skills are very lackluster compared to alternatives.

strepsels

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Necromancer is struggling a lot, and while the change to Skulls might make the Venom Skull morph viable (in melee range), the skill still has major functional issues; the projectile is far too slow, and because the skill has three distinct animations it is much harder to weave.

The good news: Necro really doesn't need much; they just need a few things every other class already has access to, and maybe a few QoL changes to corpse/pet gameplay.

POSSIBLE ADDITIONS TO THE CLASS

The only things Necro really needs are basic buffs/skill types that every other class has access to. Necro lacks:
- Major Sorcery/Brutality
- Major Prophecy/Savagery
- An Execute ability (The Death Knell passive is decent, but without a reason to use many Grave Lord abilities the usefulness of the passive is diminished)
- An on demand stun (Bone Totem was already meh, and it's still bugged and often misses the first fear tick, meaning it doesn't stun for an entire 4 seconds. Beckoning Armor's recent buff makes it a great defensive stun, but it's still defensive in nature)
- Movement or a Gap Closer (every other class either has class snare removal or a gap closer of some sort. This one isn't nearly as important at the others but I figured I'd mention it nonetheless)

As a disclaimer, I dont think every single one of these should be added - this is merely to highlight the fact that they miss out on quite a bit that other classes have. This has the effect of forcing you to outsource a lot of abilities to non-class skills, meaning you miss out on class passives (as well as diminishing the "feel" of playing a necromancer). Adding even 1 or 2 of these things to their class kit would help even out the field for build crafting quite a bit.

QUALITY OF LIFE IMPROVEMENTS

- Corpse Gameplay Improvements (Things like the aforementioned wasted tether casts when a recently killed enemy respawns make the core crux of the class feel too micro-managey. Some of the corpse abilities are very powerful - the tethers recently got a nice buff. Other areas of corpse gameplay took a hit at the same time however - the fact that Arcanist/Archer last longer now means that you can't create new corpses as fast, as you have to wait half the duration of the ability. Corpses disappear too quickly in the heat of a fight)
- Single Target Sticky DoT (Necro has 2 DoT passives, yet for mobile boss fights and the vast majority of PvP scenarios, they get very little use out of their extra DoT damage since they only have 2 Class DoTs - both AoE, and one of which can only be used on a corpse. A sticky DoT would go a long way at helping this class. Additionally, Arcanist and Archer should count as DoTs and not direct damage like they do presently in order to get more use out of this passive.)
- Pet Improvements (As mentioned before, pets break a lot of rules in this game - necro pets even moreso. A lot of these rules are extremely outdated. For example, I don't see any reason why pets shouldn't be allowed to proc sets anymore. It needlessly hurts Sorc, Necro, and to a lesser extent Warden. Necro is already tight on bar space, and having to consider which skills to slot in order to proc sets further complicates things. Pet damage and Healing numbers should also be counted on the BG scoreboards - addons like Recount and Combat Metrics can already do this, so I see no reason why scoreboards shouldn't do the same. Blastbones has vastly improved targeting than it had in years prior, but recasting the ability should de-summon it to help fix situations where blastbones gets stuck, preventing you from casting the skill again for 6 seconds. Necro pets should be commandable - it feels awful to watch your Arcanist stand right in front of someone, not attacking. It feels even worse to save up 325 ult charge just to summon 3 sleeping blastbones that have no interest in attacking an enemy.)


All of that was a long post to say this: Necro needs basic quality of life improvements and more reason to use their currently inconsistent or mediocre class skills, as their lack of buffs/utility and the inconsistency of their class skills forces them to use a large amount of non-class skills. This hinders their ceiling, complicates buildcrafting, and hurts the fantasy of playing a Necromancer.

Posted this in the other post. Necro doesn't need a ton - they're just overly complicated to play and their class skills are very lackluster compared to alternatives.

Well put! Necro does not need huge changes just a lot of smaller changes to boost it's viability. Would be really great if ZOS could acknowledge some of this feedback.

Remiem

strepsels wrote: »

A new PTS has swept in and once again Necromancer and the feedback relating to it has been ignored. Whilst the buff to skull was appreciated (I will comment on this skill in a bit) this buff does not sufficiently address the issues of Necro that are currently present in PvP and I aim to explain my thoughts, and the thoughts of others which I have collated, in this thread. Please note I am only going to comment on Necromancer in PvP and not PvE - I will also mostly comment on Magicka-based Necro however a lot of what I will suggest does still relate to a Stamina-based spec.

The Buff to Skull:



Whilst the buff to this skill is appreciated, and I do intend on giving it a shot, the core issues of this skill still remain. The skull projectile is still far too slow, especially when compared to skills of similair ilk such as Crushing Shock or Cliff Racer (though this skill is also fairly slow). An increased travel time on this skill would be greatly beneficial as currently this skill is very easy to dodge and predict at ranged - at melee this is not a huge issue however this skill is classed as ranged and as such should be accomodated to suit that playstyle.

I would also possibly suggest adding some sort of small buff to each stack of this skill (similair to Molten Whip). I would suggest a small crit damage buff, maybe 5% per stack. This would make the skill combo more nicely with Necro's crit passive in the Grave Lord tree as currently Necro, despite having a massive 8% crit chance per Grave lord skill in execute, does not have any bonuses to crit damage (this issue is very similair to what we see on magsorc currently). This would just help the skill stand out a bit more and give it some unique flavour. If Molten Whip can have a permenant 300 weapon damage then I see no reason why skull cannot have crit damage attached to it.

Major Sorcery & Brutality:

The issue of no Major Sorcery/Brutality is unique to Necro as currently every single class (including Arcanist) has some skill which grants them this essential buff. I really see no reason why Necro cannot have this buff, it is essential to every build and currently Necro either has to slot a very average skill like Degeneration (Necro already has extremely tight bar space issues and this skill is not great) or is forced into 2H and Momentum, further removing build diversity or use the very outdated Spell/Weapon Alliance potions to gain this essential buff. Necro already suffers greatly with Hybrid sustain and the lack of Sorcery/Brutality contributes greatly to this as being able to run tri-potions would be of huge help to the class.

My suggestion would not be to attach this buff to a skill (and if I did I would probably put it on Healing Tether) but to put the buff onto a passive. Similair to Nightblade's free Major Resolve via passive Necromancer would gain Major Sorcery/Brutality via. a passive. I would suggest the "Death Gleaning" passive. This passive really serves very little purpose in PvP and I cannot see any use in PvE outside of wiping trash stacks. I would suggest it would proc via. casting an ability on a corpse and you could even have the passive apply to allies, such as the Mountain's Blessing passive on DK. This would give Necro a "unique" buff that it could offer to group too, allowing for PvE and PvP diversity. See below.

Current Version:


My Version:


Obviously these numbers and how the skill would function are not final and it is up to ZOS to tweak this how they best see fit.

Summoner's Armour:

This skill is extremely redundant now. A large portion of cost reduction for the same skill's this skill applies to is covered in the "Reusable Parts" passive, and this armour buff just feels extremely underwhelming. I would simply suggest adding some sort of ramping extra % damage effect to it. This skill should feel impactful and frankly I don't feel like a "Summoner" when I use it. If I were to change this skill I would give it a ramping damage effect per corpse used whilst the armour buff is up, up to a maximum of course. Numbers could look something like this:

2% additional damage per skill used on a corpse whilst the armour buff is up, up to a maximum of 10% (could do lower even). The additional damage would reset once the skill has been recasted, meaning you cannot maintain 10% damage at all times. If 10% seems too much you could half it to 5%. This would not necesarily guarantee you get all stacks either, as the skill only lasts 20 seconds and you would need to use 5 corpse skills in that time, which is not always realistic. This could even encourage synergy between Necromancer groups as they could coordinate corpses in order to get a small damage buff.

Beckoning Armour (the pull morph) can remain as is - I assume this skill is still used in PvE and being able to differentiate between PvP and PvE morphs would be great.

Major Prophecy/Savagery:

Not much to say here, another essential buff that Necro does not have access to. This could go on a skill, probably Mortal Coil again and could last for 12 seconds (the length of the skill) however the buff would retain if the tether was broken.

Ghost/Mender:

This was perhaps one of the most over nerfed skills in recent history. Intensive Mender was too strong before the nerf, there is no denying that, but the current change to this skill was very over the top. I would not never suggest reverting the skill however a small buff to its healing output would be much appreciated. Also making Spirit Guardian unkillable again would be a massive help to Necro in open world, this "kill" mechanic completely ruins the flow of gameplay and has no place in this game. This skill is also fairly buggy as it can ocasionally run off and refuse to heal you.

What would I nerf?:

Disdain Harm. This passive makes no sense ever since the DoT changes last year. The DoT damage passive (Rapid Rot) was nerfed to 10% whilst the DoT mitigation passive was kept at 15%. This is just too much (always has been). Just reduce it to 10% or even 6% to match current CP levels, there is no reason for Necromancer to have this over the top mitigation in my eyes.

Conclusion:

To conclude, these are some of the changes that I would personally make to Necromancer in order to boost its viability in PvP. There are other changes that I would see necessary for the class, such as the addition of a proper CC (the current options are extremely lackluster and serve no purpose in any content). I also would like to see a viable DoT skill on this class as currently the only DoT is damage tether which is by far the most useless damage skill currently in PvP. I also have no desire to see Harmony return to the class - it was very overtuned however a rework of Boneyard is definitely necessary - though I do not see this as a pressing issue.

*edited for grammer corrections*

Spot on on most necro issues, not surprising since OP is one of the best magicka necromancer PvP players on PC-EU.
I will add that after access to sorcery/brutality through passives a viable ranged cc (a rework of one of grave grasp morphs into something like rune cage, slightly telegraphed, dodgeable but unblockable with some nominal amount of damage) should be near the top of priorities, that alone would let the class finally use offensive ultimates other than dawnbreaker.

@ZOS_Kevin I know balance is mostly done on a PvE basis (where necromancers shine) with PvP being an afterthought but please let the devs know that necromancer just lacks too many tools to work in PvP, at this point even PvP content creators are unanimous.

strepsels

Remiem wrote: »

strepsels wrote: »

A new PTS has swept in and once again Necromancer and the feedback relating to it has been ignored. Whilst the buff to skull was appreciated (I will comment on this skill in a bit) this buff does not sufficiently address the issues of Necro that are currently present in PvP and I aim to explain my thoughts, and the thoughts of others which I have collated, in this thread. Please note I am only going to comment on Necromancer in PvP and not PvE - I will also mostly comment on Magicka-based Necro however a lot of what I will suggest does still relate to a Stamina-based spec.

The Buff to Skull:



Whilst the buff to this skill is appreciated, and I do intend on giving it a shot, the core issues of this skill still remain. The skull projectile is still far too slow, especially when compared to skills of similair ilk such as Crushing Shock or Cliff Racer (though this skill is also fairly slow). An increased travel time on this skill would be greatly beneficial as currently this skill is very easy to dodge and predict at ranged - at melee this is not a huge issue however this skill is classed as ranged and as such should be accomodated to suit that playstyle.

I would also possibly suggest adding some sort of small buff to each stack of this skill (similair to Molten Whip). I would suggest a small crit damage buff, maybe 5% per stack. This would make the skill combo more nicely with Necro's crit passive in the Grave Lord tree as currently Necro, despite having a massive 8% crit chance per Grave lord skill in execute, does not have any bonuses to crit damage (this issue is very similair to what we see on magsorc currently). This would just help the skill stand out a bit more and give it some unique flavour. If Molten Whip can have a permenant 300 weapon damage then I see no reason why skull cannot have crit damage attached to it.

Major Sorcery & Brutality:

The issue of no Major Sorcery/Brutality is unique to Necro as currently every single class (including Arcanist) has some skill which grants them this essential buff. I really see no reason why Necro cannot have this buff, it is essential to every build and currently Necro either has to slot a very average skill like Degeneration (Necro already has extremely tight bar space issues and this skill is not great) or is forced into 2H and Momentum, further removing build diversity or use the very outdated Spell/Weapon Alliance potions to gain this essential buff. Necro already suffers greatly with Hybrid sustain and the lack of Sorcery/Brutality contributes greatly to this as being able to run tri-potions would be of huge help to the class.

My suggestion would not be to attach this buff to a skill (and if I did I would probably put it on Healing Tether) but to put the buff onto a passive. Similair to Nightblade's free Major Resolve via passive Necromancer would gain Major Sorcery/Brutality via. a passive. I would suggest the "Death Gleaning" passive. This passive really serves very little purpose in PvP and I cannot see any use in PvE outside of wiping trash stacks. I would suggest it would proc via. casting an ability on a corpse and you could even have the passive apply to allies, such as the Mountain's Blessing passive on DK. This would give Necro a "unique" buff that it could offer to group too, allowing for PvE and PvP diversity. See below.

Current Version:


My Version:


Obviously these numbers and how the skill would function are not final and it is up to ZOS to tweak this how they best see fit.

Summoner's Armour:

This skill is extremely redundant now. A large portion of cost reduction for the same skill's this skill applies to is covered in the "Reusable Parts" passive, and this armour buff just feels extremely underwhelming. I would simply suggest adding some sort of ramping extra % damage effect to it. This skill should feel impactful and frankly I don't feel like a "Summoner" when I use it. If I were to change this skill I would give it a ramping damage effect per corpse used whilst the armour buff is up, up to a maximum of course. Numbers could look something like this:

2% additional damage per skill used on a corpse whilst the armour buff is up, up to a maximum of 10% (could do lower even). The additional damage would reset once the skill has been recasted, meaning you cannot maintain 10% damage at all times. If 10% seems too much you could half it to 5%. This would not necesarily guarantee you get all stacks either, as the skill only lasts 20 seconds and you would need to use 5 corpse skills in that time, which is not always realistic. This could even encourage synergy between Necromancer groups as they could coordinate corpses in order to get a small damage buff.

Beckoning Armour (the pull morph) can remain as is - I assume this skill is still used in PvE and being able to differentiate between PvP and PvE morphs would be great.

Major Prophecy/Savagery:

Not much to say here, another essential buff that Necro does not have access to. This could go on a skill, probably Mortal Coil again and could last for 12 seconds (the length of the skill) however the buff would retain if the tether was broken.

Ghost/Mender:

This was perhaps one of the most over nerfed skills in recent history. Intensive Mender was too strong before the nerf, there is no denying that, but the current change to this skill was very over the top. I would not never suggest reverting the skill however a small buff to its healing output would be much appreciated. Also making Spirit Guardian unkillable again would be a massive help to Necro in open world, this "kill" mechanic completely ruins the flow of gameplay and has no place in this game. This skill is also fairly buggy as it can ocasionally run off and refuse to heal you.

What would I nerf?:

Disdain Harm. This passive makes no sense ever since the DoT changes last year. The DoT damage passive (Rapid Rot) was nerfed to 10% whilst the DoT mitigation passive was kept at 15%. This is just too much (always has been). Just reduce it to 10% or even 6% to match current CP levels, there is no reason for Necromancer to have this over the top mitigation in my eyes.

Conclusion:

To conclude, these are some of the changes that I would personally make to Necromancer in order to boost its viability in PvP. There are other changes that I would see necessary for the class, such as the addition of a proper CC (the current options are extremely lackluster and serve no purpose in any content). I also would like to see a viable DoT skill on this class as currently the only DoT is damage tether which is by far the most useless damage skill currently in PvP. I also have no desire to see Harmony return to the class - it was very overtuned however a rework of Boneyard is definitely necessary - though I do not see this as a pressing issue.

*edited for grammer corrections*

Spot on on most necro issues, not surprising since OP is one of the best magicka necromancer PvP players on PC-EU.
I will add that after access to sorcery/brutality through passives a viable ranged cc (a rework of one of grave grasp morphs into something like rune cage, slightly telegraphed, dodgeable but unblockable with some nominal amount of damage) should be near the top of priorities, that alone would let the class finally use offensive ultimates other than dawnbreaker.

@ZOS_Kevin I know balance is mostly done on a PvE basis (where necromancers shine) with PvP being an afterthought but please let the devs know that necromancer just lacks too many tools to work in PvP, at this point even PvP content creators are unanimous.

Well put. I’d love to see Necro finally have access to a viable CC. It’s rather amusing that Arcanist has, arguably, one of the strongest CCs in the game now whilst Necro is still left with the abysmal grave grasp and bone totem - not to mention the abomination of a “CC” that magicka colossus is.

necro_the_crafter

Also got quite a few ideas that i posted on other thread that now got lost.

Right now magcro is just goblin npc that puts totem and trows snail-speed projectiles. Might as well get crystal that turn you into goblin from stonefalls and coslpay as one.

On this slide of my presentation you can observe what i came up with for adjustment to a flaming skull. Well idea that I came up with, its to make it like Rakkhat barrage attack, but instead lasting for 0.8s, that fires 4 smaller skull projectiles in one target. It will add a channeler flavor to the class, making you feel like the dark mage you are, also synergising with rapid rot passive. Venom skull could be left unchanged, in case you still want to have a instant spammable.


Blastbones is necros bread and butter. But I think something has to be done to compensate for its "reliability". my suggestion its to make a beam, that binds blastbones to a targeted enemy. Beam serves only as a guide for our blasbone. If an enemy runs out of its range, goes to stealth, or die before blastbone reaching it -> beam breaks, instantly killing our blastbone, dealing something like 30-50% of bb tooltip and refunds 30-50% of its costs.


Now for my poor graveyard. Having a burst tied to it its actually a way to go. Problem with self synegry was all on harmony trait and absence of GCD. My suggestion is making it a more of a catarsis spell then upfront brust. Placing graveyard consumes up to 3-6 corpses in the area over 1-2 seconds, dealing X damage for a corpse consumed(or increasing damage of avid synergy by a %). That way it would me more telegrafed, and can only be used with a setup.


Now to make a necromancer actually being THE undead summoner. My suggestion for sceletal mage adjust its actually making this spell a buff( prophecy/savagery). With a twist. You critical hits on the target make a bolt of necrotic energy ricochet from the target into nearest corpse, animating it(sceletal mage/archer) to fight at your side for X secs up to three times. Even cutting mage damage down three times to compensate for the amounts of undead you summon will make it a very welcomed change , will satisfy me at least, and will play into necromancer fantasy of owerhelming your enemys with amounts of undead you summon.


Idea that made write it all down. Class execute. You swing your sythe (with dks charged whip animation) in attempt to behead your target, harvesting their essense. Each hit on an enemy that under 50% health apllies a Death Touched debuff, up to 3 stacks, that deal X fire dot that scales in proportion to enemys lost health. If a target dies with 1 stack or from 1 hit, you reassemble target corpse into weaker version of blastbones (80-40% damage of bb tooltip) that seeks nearest enemy. Im my head this spell looks like it was in the game but then was removed for being too cool.


Other stuff.
(A) Totem should have empovering grasp buff effect on your summons. And making summons AI stay in totem radius will also be great.
(B) Grave grasp could be a ground aoe ability that functions simillar but based on timer, applying each effect for every 2 second per enemy( if you stand in it you get 2s slow, then 2s root 2s stun). One morph could be for pve tanks to debuff adds in radius with minor weap/spell damage debaff, and other one should aplly stun on recast, like warden seeds burst heal on recast.

Its also would be cool to see colossus made into summonable flesh atro, that will have no cost on summon, but will have a timer, and huge interaptable summon time (around 6s). Catch is pressing its active component will consume corpse for him to do something prolonging the timer.

VixxVexx

Please make scythe a semi-execute (higher base value, lower execute scaling).

A base value slightly lower than most spammables with a lower execute scaling compared to most executes.
This way it deals the same damage on average but with a stronger up/downsides.

strepsels

Would be nice to see some positive changes to Necro in the coming weeks

Afterip

I am in such a state that I perceive nerfs of other classes as buff necromancers...

@ZOS Lets go down Dragon Knits and this will really buf necro in pvp

Remiem

Hopefully some of the feedback has been taken into consideration for PTS week 3.
Really for a class that received such harsh nerfs with next to no compensation, what is asked is nothing crazy unlike so many demands from other classes mains, things every other class have access to like major sorcery/brutality and a viable stun.

When I fight magicka necromancers and check my CMX report the only source of class damage is blastbones, without it I wouldn't even be able to tell what class I fought from the report alone, isn't that pitiful? Meanwhile my combat reports against dks, nightblades or even sorcerers are full of class skills.

StarOfElyon

Adding my suggestions to the mix

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Here are some ideas that I have to add some more utility to the skills on the class.

Hungry Scythe: also applies life steal to all enemies hit. (I think this still won't make the spammable very good for damage but at least it'll add to the use for survivability)

[Also, life steal should probably be tied to a status effect too]

Skeletal Arcanist/Archer: grants major sorcery/brutality when active.

Mystic/Detonating Syphon: grants major prophecy/savagery when slotted. Both morphs apply a damage over time to targets that stick to them after touching the tether.

Flame/Venom skull: applies burning/poisoned status effects. Does additional damage to targets afflicted with a status effect. No longer does increased damage on third cast but instead does increased damage on low health enemies.

Spirit Mender:
- Spirit Guardian: when active, applies major cowardice to attackers. (I just like the idea of the ghost scaring attackers.)
- Intensive Mender: increases the healing over a shorter period of time. (Buff the healing more please)

Bone Totem: summons an effigy of bones up to 28 meters away. After 1 second, the totem begins fearing nearby enemies every 2 seconds, causing them to cower in place for 4 seconds. (Changed to allow both morphs to be targeted)
- Warding Totem (Formerly Remote Totem): grants minor protection when standing in the area of effect.
- Agony Totem: afflicts enemies in the area of effect with minor vulnerability.


ULTIMATES:
Putrid Colossus (formerly Frozen Colossus): Unleash a decayed Flesh Colossus to pulverize enemies in the area. The Colossus smashes the ground three times over 3 seconds. Dealing damage applies Major Vulnerability to any enemy hit for 12 seconds.
- Frozen Colossus (formerly Glacial Colossus): does frost damage and freezes (stuns) enemies on the first hit instead of the third. (If a stun is too strong, the first hit can apply a strong snare instead)
- Pestilent Colossus: smashes the ground once and does disease damage. Afflicts enemies with a pestilence that does damage over time. (In PvP ultimates are all about burst and that's what necros lack so I tried to make the bursty part of these ultimates at the beginning of them)

Animate Blastbones: instead of resurrecting allies, this ultimate summons three blastbones to attack the nearest opponent. It consumes corpses in the area to summon up to three more blastbones. Summoned Blastbones are immune to being crowd controlled (other than by another ultimate). Reduce the cost of this ultimate to 200, down from 320, to make it more usable.

BahometZ

Remiem wrote: »

When I fight magicka necromancers and check my CMX report the only source of class damage is blastbones, without it I wouldn't even be able to tell what class I fought from the report alone, isn't that pitiful? Meanwhile my combat reports against dks, nightblades or even sorcerers are full of class skills.

Says it all really. I strongly dislike the class design of dmg/heal/tank skill trees.

OtarTheMad

Skulls needs to be faster, I’d say put a dot on the third cast as well as the increased damage it already does

Blastbones magicka morph, I’d put a dot on that too. The magicka morph NEEDS a secondary affect that actually works. Something as simple as a dot would go far.

Skeletal summons- right now there is no reason to have this ability on your bar or unlocked imo unless you are doing it for the penetration. This ability has the potential to be a real good pressure ability. I’d say make it so the person who gets hit splashes damage onto others (think it does this already) but also applies a dot.

Damage tether- I don’t mind this ability too much, I use it in PvP and PvE for at least SOME dot pressure. It could be better. In general corpses are gross right? So if anyone walks thru or stands on the corpse being tethered they get a dot on them.

Colossus smash ult- final smash of each applies a dot to anyone hit.

I’m leaning into the dot thing because Necros have a passive for it but no real dots besides Boneyard, seems weird. So lean into that more, I don’t mind using the mage guild ability as my maj sorc and destro for breach but Magcros should have class abilities that work.

Couldn’t hurt to add some sets that provide corpses too.

Vulkunne

Ok no its not good. But it never will be yeah? Be thankful for what we got and it still being original. Templars have lost jabs, DKs have lost wings, NB have lost uhhh lots lol.

You know years back the concept of something getting fixed or updated always excited me and drew my interest. Yet now I sit down around a kitchen table and have a drink or two before reading patch notes. It could always be worse and the good thing here is we know about the problems Necro has and can work around them.

Many are not going to be able to receive this concept but there are those who have learned from past changes and they know.

IncultaWolf

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Skulls needs to be faster, I’d say put a dot on the third cast as well as the increased damage it already does

Blastbones magicka morph, I’d put a dot on that too. The magicka morph NEEDS a secondary affect that actually works. Something as simple as a dot would go far.

Skeletal summons- right now there is no reason to have this ability on your bar or unlocked imo unless you are doing it for the penetration. This ability has the potential to be a real good pressure ability. I’d say make it so the person who gets hit splashes damage onto others (think it does this already) but also applies a dot.

Damage tether- I don’t mind this ability too much, I use it in PvP and PvE for at least SOME dot pressure. It could be better. In general corpses are gross right? So if anyone walks thru or stands on the corpse being tethered they get a dot on them.

Colossus smash ult- final smash of each applies a dot to anyone hit.

I’m leaning into the dot thing because Necros have a passive for it but no real dots besides Boneyard, seems weird. So lean into that more, I don’t mind using the mage guild ability as my maj sorc and destro for breach but Magcros should have class abilities that work.

Couldn’t hurt to add some sets that provide corpses too.

Fun fact not many people know about: Mad tinkerer actually provides a corpse for your necromancer to use if the enemy you're targeting dies before it can start rolling =p

arch1t3ct

Just 3 things i really want to become true:

1: Skeletal Mage grants Major Brutality & Sorcery when active

2: Scythe gets a execute damage scaling (without lowering the actual tooltip it has now)

3: One of Colossus ult morphs sticks to a enemy rather than being a stationary AoE

Molagcat

Major Brutality & Sorcery should be gained by a skill that everyone uses in pvp, like spirit guardian.
Or it should be gained with a passive like strepsels suggested.
I don't think many necromancer users would agree that it should be gained by mage.

TechMaybeHic

When I play my Necro; I usually am not bothered by lack of major brutality/sorcery. It couldn't hurt, thats for sure; but I am most bothered by the slow abilities.

-Blastbones is slow to cast and take off and so its target can be lost by death or otherwise, leaving it confused.

-Skull or "Doom Basketball" as we like to call it, is a slow projectile, and even faster projectiles are often not wanted because the dodge chance

-the stun on the totem is slow

-the self use of synergy pre and post harmony nerf has always been slow to execute

-The class is just clunky and slow in general as far as movement, and it now longer feels rewarded by tankiness and mass AOE damage.

strepsels

Molagcat wrote: »

Major Brutality & Sorcery should be gained by a skill that everyone uses in pvp, like spirit guardian.
Or it should be gained with a passive like strepsels suggested.
I don't think many necromancer users would agree that it should be gained by mage.

Completely agree. Mage is an incredibly underwhelming skill that has very little utility with the rest of Necro’s kit. Putting sorcery elsewhere would be ideal.

StarOfElyon

strepsels wrote: »

Molagcat wrote: »

Major Brutality & Sorcery should be gained by a skill that everyone uses in pvp, like spirit guardian.
Or it should be gained with a passive like strepsels suggested.
I don't think many necromancer users would agree that it should be gained by mage.

Completely agree. Mage is an incredibly underwhelming skill that has very little utility with the rest of Necro’s kit. Putting sorcery elsewhere would be ideal.

Too much like the netch then.

Remiem

strepsels wrote: »

Molagcat wrote: »

Major Brutality & Sorcery should be gained by a skill that everyone uses in pvp, like spirit guardian.
Or it should be gained with a passive like strepsels suggested.
I don't think many necromancer users would agree that it should be gained by mage.

Completely agree. Mage is an incredibly underwhelming skill that has very little utility with the rest of Necro’s kit. Putting sorcery elsewhere would be ideal.

Agree as well. That skill tickle people for 400 dmg every two seconds, wouldn't be worth a slot even with major sorcery slapped on but that's what people who barely touch that class believe: slapping buffs on numerically weak and mechanically terrible skills is enough.
That part:

Mage is an incredibly underwhelming skill that has very little utility with the rest of Necro’s kit.

is funny though, what kit? Like I said, necro has a grand total of 1 offensive skill worth slotting (1 and a half with stamina scythe if you feel generous), since harmony and boneyard got nuked it has no gameplan.
Dks dot up people and try to catch them with a fully loaded molten whip after activating corrosive armor, sorcs try to connect frag procs with curse and overload lights at the same time, templars charged backlash before the skill got butchered, nbs catch people with incap bow proc combos, necros? well you keep your blastbones up and... hope the proc sets of your choice (master dw, maarselok, way of fire, draugrkin, vate destro, asylum destro etc...) are enough.

Patch notes dropped and nothing, so enjoy Elder Deekays Online I'm out.

xDeusEJRx

Well necro mains, it's time to throw in the towel. Next year for sure(I am coping)

Afterip

I watch pvp streamers and what i just found there is no one of them play necro. NO ONE OF THEM. DK, Wardens, Sorcs, NB even Templars playable in pvp but not necromancer, really outsider class.
@ZOS_GinaBruno can you do something with this? I know many players of other classes ask you a buff them, but necro really in a bad spot now...