Lack of consistency and meaning in nomenclature (eg. blocking)

Elsonso

tincanman wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

...Bracing oneself is to set yourself into a stance or position to receive impact from something else, or catch something.

You brace yourself to block an attack. So, holding block, while no attacks are incoming, is in fact, bracing.

Not according to the in-game help(cf. 'blocking'):
The description of 'blocking' is given as "to put yourself in a defensive posture" - as you have attempted to describe/justify the tautological 'bracing' term.

Yeah, they probably need to update that page to reflect that it is now Bracing, not Blocking.

kargen27

Bracing is being used correctly and even if it were not we all fully understand what is meant. It wouldn't be worth spending even a small amount of time fixing if there were something to fix.

Grizzbeorn

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

All blocking is bracing

Not all bracing is blocking

Or at least, that's my understanding

You have that backwards.

spartaxoxo

They didn't always use the term bracing, afaik. I believe they probably began using the term because people were confused when only "block" was used, but I'm not a tank so they can probably clarify better than me. I could be wrong.

TaSheen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They didn't always use the term bracing, afaik. I believe they probably began using the term because people were confused when only "block" was used, but I'm not a tank so they can probably clarify better than me. I could be wrong.

I don't remember seeing the term "bracing" before CP 2.0. Then again, I didn't pay a whole lot of attention....

Pelanora

Grizzbeorn

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They didn't always use the term bracing, afaik. I believe they probably began using the term because people were confused when only "block" was used, but I'm not a tank so they can probably clarify better than me. I could be wrong.

One of the craftable Jewelry glyphs is a Glyph of Bracing, but I don't know how long it has been in the game.

Amottica

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

All blocking is bracing

Not all bracing is blocking

Or at least, that's my understanding

It seems to be the opposite. Blocking is just the action of using block whereas bracing denotes an extended period of time of holding block.

Finedaible

On the subject of clarity, I'll add that they should also clarify the terms "active" versus "slotted" since those two terms can be pretty ambiguous as to when they apply yet are crucial to understanding certain build concepts.

virtus753

Amottica wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

All blocking is bracing

Not all bracing is blocking

Or at least, that's my understanding

It seems to be the opposite. Blocking is just the action of using block whereas bracing denotes an extended period of time of holding block.

Except when Block is used to mean "you actively get hit by something while Block is active" (as opposed to "you tap/hold the button and see the yellow shield") - in which case you must not only use the Block key but you must get hit by something to proc whatever it is that needs to be procced.

Like Turning Tide: "When you Block, you gain Flowing Water for 10 seconds..."

You can tap or hold the Block control as much and as long as you want. If you don't get hit by anything while doing so (or, more accurately, if you don't get hit by the specific skills that proc TT, which do not appear to be a consistent list), then Flowing Water will never activate.

ghastley

The problem is that the player does not control when an enemy’s attack will hit. So a blocking attempt must start before and end after the attack arrives. We call this extended process a block if it succeeds. It’s the defensive equivalent of a dot (protect over time?) but it’s the only option we have to negate or reduce the attack. The game registers three events - start to block, impact, and stop blocking - and checks the order. That is how lag kills you.

Bracing only needs the first and last events. Block needs all three. The player only does the bracing events, (by using the block control, because block is the intent) his/her opponent does the other. Effects may start/end when any of those events happen, so if the start event is the relevant one, it will usually be “when bracing” and if it’s the second, then “when blocking”.

Elsonso

ghastley wrote: »

The problem is that the player does not control when an enemy’s attack will hit. So a blocking attempt must start before and end after the attack arrives. We call this extended process a block if it succeeds. It’s the defensive equivalent of a dot (protect over time?) but it’s the only option we have to negate or reduce the attack. The game registers three events - start to block, impact, and stop blocking - and checks the order. That is how lag kills you.

Bracing only needs the first and last events. Block needs all three. The player only does the bracing events, (by using the block control, because block is the intent) his/her opponent does the other. Effects may start/end when any of those events happen, so if the start event is the relevant one, it will usually be “when bracing” and if it’s the second, then “when blocking”.

Bracing is the entire action. Block seems to be what happens when an enemy actually connects with you while bracing.

virtus753

Elsonso wrote: »

ghastley wrote: »

The problem is that the player does not control when an enemy’s attack will hit. So a blocking attempt must start before and end after the attack arrives. We call this extended process a block if it succeeds. It’s the defensive equivalent of a dot (protect over time?) but it’s the only option we have to negate or reduce the attack. The game registers three events - start to block, impact, and stop blocking - and checks the order. That is how lag kills you.

Bracing only needs the first and last events. Block needs all three. The player only does the bracing events, (by using the block control, because block is the intent) his/her opponent does the other. Effects may start/end when any of those events happen, so if the start event is the relevant one, it will usually be “when bracing” and if it’s the second, then “when blocking”.

Bracing is the entire action. Block seems to be what happens when an enemy actually connects with you while bracing.

But even then it’s not consistent, since you can Block (i.e. take damage while the block control is pressed) an attack and still not proc Turning Tide… This is part of the lack of consistency and accuracy in language that confuses players.

I_killed_Vivec

Amottica wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

"To put yourself into a defensive position" is literally what bracing means.

The quote says: "To put yourself in a defensive posture to Block an incoming attack"

The first part of that sentence could also read: "To brace yourself to block an incoming attack". You see how they intentionally described the action of bracing in preparation of blocking something. They didn't say: To block and attack to block an incoming attack. Because bracing and blocking are not the same thing.

It's under the description for 'block' and 'blocking'.

No where is the word 'bracing' used. As it should be because that word is a useless tautology.

edit: Blocking is: To put yourself in a defensive posture to Block an incoming attack. By defintion.

Bracing is the holding of block for an extended period of time. There is not no need to mention it in the tooltips.

With that, there is a need to use a term for pressing and holding block for an extended period of time since there are aspects of the game that are affected by holding block vs just pressing it for a moment such as the effects on stamina/magicka regen.

That is the reason for the different terms and Zenimax is using it accurately and properly.

So to avoid confusion, and any debate of how long "an extended period of time " might be, why not just use "holding block", because that is what you are doing, holding down the mouse key/block key/control.

It seems to me holding block totally describes "pressing and holding block for an extended period of time" without having to bring in a new term that has clearly added confusion (as can be seen in this thread).

Northwold

ghastley wrote: »

The problem is that the player does not control when an enemy’s attack will hit. So a blocking attempt must start before and end after the attack arrives. We call this extended process a block if it succeeds. It’s the defensive equivalent of a dot (protect over time?) but it’s the only option we have to negate or reduce the attack. The game registers three events - start to block, impact, and stop blocking - and checks the order. That is how lag kills you.

Bracing only needs the first and last events. Block needs all three. The player only does the bracing events, (by using the block control, because block is the intent) his/her opponent does the other. Effects may start/end when any of those events happen, so if the start event is the relevant one, it will usually be “when bracing” and if it’s the second, then “when blocking”.

Technically speaking, then, you shouldn't use the term "when blocking" because it is a finite action that takes a split second (it merely describes the moment an attack is prevented) and is thus not capable of taking the gerund ("ing") without starting to strain plain-English grammatical sense.

This is part of the problem. Sometimes they use bracing. Sometimes they use brace. Sometimes they use blocking. Sometimes they use block. Which is it, when, and what does ZoS think they mean each time? It's not clear, and the usage has changed over time without previous references being changed.

UNSeki

The introduction of the term "bracing" made the conditions for sets, CPs and skills related to bracing/blocking clearer. Removing the term would be a regression.

This is a game, not a tractatus on the English language. Games have always used arbitrary definitions that are only relative to their own rules. Learn each term, move on.

virtus753 wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ghastley wrote: »

The problem is that the player does not control when an enemy’s attack will hit. So a blocking attempt must start before and end after the attack arrives. We call this extended process a block if it succeeds. It’s the defensive equivalent of a dot (protect over time?) but it’s the only option we have to negate or reduce the attack. The game registers three events - start to block, impact, and stop blocking - and checks the order. That is how lag kills you.

Bracing only needs the first and last events. Block needs all three. The player only does the bracing events, (by using the block control, because block is the intent) his/her opponent does the other. Effects may start/end when any of those events happen, so if the start event is the relevant one, it will usually be “when bracing” and if it’s the second, then “when blocking”.

Bracing is the entire action. Block seems to be what happens when an enemy actually connects with you while bracing.

But even then it’s not consistent, since you can Block (i.e. take damage while the block control is pressed) an attack and still not proc Turning Tide… This is part of the lack of consistency and accuracy in language that confuses players.

A successful Block should always trigger Flowing Water, except if:
- You swapped to a bar where you don't have 5 pieces of Turning Tide.
- Flowing Water is on cooldown.
- The game bugged.

The wording on the set seems to be pretty clear for me. Other than that, you just need to have previous knowledge of how set effects work.

Northwold

If people don't want it to descend into a "tractatus" on the English language, the game needs to *define how it uses these words* and stick to those definitions.

And, as the original poster has pointed out, the game's *own definition* of blocking *is not consistent with how the term is used at various points in the game.*

UNSeki

Northwold wrote: »

If people don't want it to descend into a "tractatus" on the English language, the game needs to *define how it uses these words* and stick to them.

And, as the original poster has pointed out, the game's own definition of blocking *is not consistent with how the term is used at various points in the game.*

Can you provide an example where the term is used inconsistently in-game?

The OP posted an example of forum patch notes (that used both terms, but nevertheless clearly described the situation) and a faulty example of the help menu.

I do agree with your post about the champion menu, and that the help section could be updated to use the term bracing as well.

Furthermore, I haven't done a new character tutorial in a while, but if, by chance, it says "hold RMB to block", that should also be changed to "brace", while maybe keeping NPC comments about "blocking" when the hit does happen.

Northwold

UNSeki wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

If people don't want it to descend into a "tractatus" on the English language, the game needs to *define how it uses these words* and stick to them.

And, as the original poster has pointed out, the game's own definition of blocking *is not consistent with how the term is used at various points in the game.*

Can you provide an example where the term is used inconsistently in-game?

The OP posted an example of forum patch notes (that used both terms, but nevertheless clearly described the situation) and a faulty example of the help menu.

I do agree with your post about the champion menu, and that the help section could be updated to use the term bracing as well.

Furthermore, I haven't done a new character tutorial in a while, but if, by chance, it says "hold RMB to block", that should also be changed to "brace", while maybe keeping NPC comments about "blocking" when the hit does happen.

Further up in the thread the OP posted an image of how ESO describes blocking in the in game help. It's actually describing "bracing" and *then* "blocking" in the new terminology, without using the term "brace" at all(!!).

It's fine to change the terminology but it needs to be done throughout all aspects of the game if it's then going to be carried into things like the champion points menu. Otherwise it's difficult to understand what means what.

There's also sometimes a problem of just unclear language that doesn't say what it's supposed to say. When that's in an armour set you can test it. But as one example, I think it's Bastion in the CP trees where the definition does not actually make clear whether it applies to shields on the player character when the enemy is not themselves shielded and as written, naturally means that it doesn't. But in reality (as I understand it) it does.*

* Found it: "Increases the effectiveness of your damage shields and damage against shielded enemies by 3% per stage." This is one of those hanged on a comma sentences that does not say what it thinks it says for lack of punctuation.

** A couple of set examples for blocking, specifically:

Foolkillers Ward "Activating Block while in combat places a damage shield on you and up to 3 group members" (presumably bracing but who knows what "activating" block means?)

Stormweaver's Cavort "You reduce your Magicka Recovery to 0 while Blocking," (presumably bracing otherwise why would anyone care although, granted, this might be referring to successfully blocking long duration channeled attacks -- I'm not about to test it)

Other sets use the term "bracing", adding to the confusion.

From the CP menu Soothing Shield "When you *successfully* block an attack you have a 15% chance to restore 147 Health per stage." (emphasis added)

It's just all over the place.

UNSeki

@Northworld I didn't get notified of your quote, for some reason.

Northwold wrote: »

Further up in the thread the OP posted an image of how ESO describes blocking in the in game help. It's actually describing "bracing" and *then* "blocking" in the new terminology, without using the term "brace" at all(!!).

It's fine to change the terminology but it needs to be done throughout all aspects of the game if it's then going to be carried into things like the champion points menu. Otherwise it's difficult to understand what means what.

That was a faulty example, because the description accurately described the process of preparing for an attack first (bracing) and then blocking, but I did concede that it should be clearer by adding the new term.

There's also sometimes a problem of just unclear language that doesn't say what it's supposed to say. When that's in an armour set you can test it. But as one example, I think it's Bastion in the CP trees where the definition does not actually make clear whether it applies to shields on the player character when the enemy is not themselves shielded and as written, naturally means that it doesn't. But in reality (as I understand it) it does.*

* Found it: "Increases the effectiveness of your damage shields and damage against shielded enemies by 3% per stage." This is one of those hanged on a comma sentences that does not say what it thinks it says for lack of punctuation.

I see. The sentence is technically correct, as it's structured as "Increases the effectiveness of [X] and [Y]", and that's exactly how it works; by increasing the effectiveness of each of the two things listed. That being said, it reads similar to the Ward Master CP skill:
"Reduces your damage taken by 2% while Blocking and under the effects of a Damage shield."

But, in fact, it only works when the "blocking" portion and the "having a damage shield active" portion happen simultaneously — so the sentence asks for a "while both" in there.

** A couple of set examples for blocking, specifically:

Foolkillers Ward "Activating Block while in combat places a damage shield on you and up to 3 group members" (presumably bracing but who knows what "activating" block means?)

Stormweaver's Cavort "You reduce your Magicka Recovery to 0 while Blocking," (presumably bracing otherwise why would anyone care although, granted, this might be referring to successfully blocking long duration channeled attacks -- I'm not about to test it)

Other sets use the term "bracing", adding to the confusion.

From the CP menu Soothing Shield "When you *successfully* block an attack you have a 15% chance to restore 147 Health per stage." (emphasis added)

It's just all over the place.

Fair enough, those are good examples of inconsistent terminology.

Ratzkifal

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

All blocking is bracing

Not all bracing is blocking

Or at least, that's my understanding

That's not true for the Shield Wall ultimate. I am pretty sure that's blocking without bracing because all incoming attacks will be blocked, but you are not actively bracing and free to do other things for the duration of the ultimate.

But this is also exactly why this distinction is necessary. Sets that require bracing do not work on using Shield Wall. Sets that require blocking an attack work on Shield Wall. There is that one set, I forgot the name and I am too lazy to look it up right now, that summons an ice AOE around you while bracing, so it does not require you to be getting hit while pressing the block key.

Dr_Con

it's probably a side effect of damage shields "blocking" damage and the nomenclature they used in describing damage shields in the red cp tree. I really dislike how "blocking damage" is used synonymously with "absorbing."

"Bracing" vs "Blocking" shouldn't be a thing, but due to being overly wordy they have forced themselves to include "Bracing" as a specification of holding right click, as opposed to simply saying "Blocking".

kringled_1

Dr_Con wrote: »

it's probably a side effect of damage shields "blocking" damage and the nomenclature they used in describing damage shields in the red cp tree. I really dislike how "blocking damage" is used synonymously with "absorbing."

"Bracing" vs "Blocking" shouldn't be a thing, but due to being overly wordy they have forced themselves to include "Bracing" as a specification of holding right click, as opposed to simply saying "Blocking".

I''m not sure why you think this is wordy.
The nomenclature inconsistency is because up until fairly recently (2 years ago?) they did not use the term bracing at all. Blocking was used to refer to both the act of holding right click as well as actually mitigating the damage of an incoming attack. Since there are effects that only trigger from one or the other, I imagine that they decided to change the language to specify which is being referred to. However, there's lots and lots of old language within the game that does not reflect this change.

Animar111

Bracing is long term, block is short term.
Once you’ve blocked an attack you can drop block but if you haven’t blocked the attack yet then you must still be bracing.

Aardappelboom

tincanman wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

To be perfectly honest much of the champion points menu could use a glossary.

I'd like a glossary for everything!

But champion points would be a great start.

Pillars of eternity does it fairly well, considering the glossary was programmed on top of the classical engines it was build on.

You can toggle glossary mode on or off, after which you can select predefined words or phrases. When selected you get a definition or short explanation.

I do agree that it would help to get a bit of an overview, after playing for two years I think I've got a pretty good idea, but it's still messy. Especially for terms like "martial" or "core combat skills"

I would also like to see an "impacts (or doesn't impact for a shorter list) the following skills" bacause some skills don't fit into one category (brawler is a dmg skill, with a shield, but is it a shield skill then? Or not?) 😮‍💨

hrothbern

Northwold wrote: »

UNSeki wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

If people don't want it to descend into a "tractatus" on the English language, the game needs to *define how it uses these words* and stick to them.

And, as the original poster has pointed out, the game's own definition of blocking *is not consistent with how the term is used at various points in the game.*

Can you provide an example where the term is used inconsistently in-game?

The OP posted an example of forum patch notes (that used both terms, but nevertheless clearly described the situation) and a faulty example of the help menu.

I do agree with your post about the champion menu, and that the help section could be updated to use the term bracing as well.

Furthermore, I haven't done a new character tutorial in a while, but if, by chance, it says "hold RMB to block", that should also be changed to "brace", while maybe keeping NPC comments about "blocking" when the hit does happen.

Further up in the thread the OP posted an image of how ESO describes blocking in the in game help. It's actually describing "bracing" and *then* "blocking" in the new terminology, without using the term "brace" at all(!!).

It's fine to change the terminology but it needs to be done throughout all aspects of the game if it's then going to be carried into things like the champion points menu. Otherwise it's difficult to understand what means what.

There's also sometimes a problem of just unclear language that doesn't say what it's supposed to say. When that's in an armour set you can test it. But as one example, I think it's Bastion in the CP trees where the definition does not actually make clear whether it applies to shields on the player character when the enemy is not themselves shielded and as written, naturally means that it doesn't. But in reality (as I understand it) it does.*

* Found it: "Increases the effectiveness of your damage shields and damage against shielded enemies by 3% per stage." This is one of those hanged on a comma sentences that does not say what it thinks it says for lack of punctuation.

** A couple of set examples for blocking, specifically:

Foolkillers Ward "Activating Block while in combat places a damage shield on you and up to 3 group members" (presumably bracing but who knows what "activating" block means?)

Stormweaver's Cavort "You reduce your Magicka Recovery to 0 while Blocking," (presumably bracing otherwise why would anyone care although, granted, this might be referring to successfully blocking long duration channeled attacks -- I'm not about to test it)

Other sets use the term "bracing", adding to the confusion.

From the CP menu Soothing Shield "When you *successfully* block an attack you have a 15% chance to restore 147 Health per stage." (emphasis added)

It's just all over the place.

Quite Right

It would have been, I think, better when the Tutorial would have been named: "Bracing & Blocking" and then explain how Bracing", also called holding block, becomes a Block when an attack hits that can be blocked.

The remark that blocking will exhaust your Stamina is outdated with Ice staffs costing Magicka (or that Mythic) and it does not say that Stamina (Magicka) recovery are zero during Bracing.

If you would have a Real Life Judge (in effect Masters of Logic) and ZOS defending the tooltips and Tutorial descriptions, their lawyers would be roasted in quite a blistering way.

It is mainly at the level of "if you know what I mean"

And imo not to forget to the defense of ZOS:
Getting the text exactly right of for example contract clauses, manuals, etc, etc is a very effort intensive nightmare.
And adding the demand that the text must be short makes it very, very hard to do.
Having big clauses like the ESO TOS or other RL contracts with judicial gibberish is also no solution.