Why do you have such a bad relationship with the players?

Melzo

Why are players begging you for updates?? Why do you make pvp worse and worse with every patch. In all games, updates bring something good, but I and other players are waiting for their class not to be nerfed. Why do you have such an inadequate attitude towards the players?

Bushido2513

Maybe the question you should be asking is why you continue to support a relationship with a company you view in this way?

My point is that while there are many sides and things that factor into todays relationship between players and ZOS, a big factor is that player complain but still continue to play the game and some even give money to the company while doing so.

I would say that if the money stopped rolling in and players formed a united voice that change would come much quicker but that's not what's happening. Currently I imagine money keeps coming in, some feedback is honored, some is not, people complain and the day starts over.

It's not optimal but at the end of the day you do have a choice in what you choose to do about the situation.

i11ionward

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I would say that if the money stopped rolling in and players formed a united voice that change would come much quicker but that's not what's happening. Currently I imagine money keeps coming in, some feedback is honored, some is not, people complain and the day starts over.

To play pvp you don't need to invest a lot of money in the crown store, you don't even need to buy new DLCs or chapters if there are no strong mythics or sets.
But I noticed that most of the requests on the PTS forum are from PVP players.
So the question is, should developers pay more attention to PVP if this area of the game brings less money than PVE?

VixxVexx

Vicious cycle.

Annoyed players give feedback, which annoys the devs who give an annoyed response, which annoys the players. Repeat.
It's a shame really, a lot of this can be solved with tiny tweaks to class skills and passives. It just takes them so long. (years)

flguy147ub17_ESO

As a PVP player myself, it’s simple. This is not a PVP game, it was at launch but hasn’t been for years. PVP is still in the game but all the focus is on PVE and even making it more like a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game than anything else. That is fine, just have to accept we aren’t the target market. PVP players keep expecting PVP updates or focus, it isn’t going to happen if it hasn’t in years. What sucks as PVP mmorpg gamers, we don’t really other options.

Bushido2513

i11ionward wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I would say that if the money stopped rolling in and players formed a united voice that change would come much quicker but that's not what's happening. Currently I imagine money keeps coming in, some feedback is honored, some is not, people complain and the day starts over.

To play pvp you don't need to invest a lot of money in the crown store, you don't even need to buy new DLCs or chapters if there are no strong mythics or sets.
But I noticed that most of the requests on the PTS forum are from PVP players.
So the question is, should developers pay more attention to PVP if this area of the game brings less money than PVE?

Now you're asking the right questions. So at the end of the day the game needs population. PVP players still PVE from time to time, buy gear farmed by PVE players, sell things PVE players need and back and forth. So there's value in keeping PVP players involved but I'm pretty sure it's not near the value PVE brings in between new players, crown store items, etc, etc.

PVP is more than an afterthought and it does matter but I think how much attention it does or doesn't currently get shows just how much it matters to ZOS. Sad but just is what it is.

Bushido2513

VixxVexx wrote: »

Vicious cycle.

Annoyed players give feedback, which annoys the devs who give an annoyed response, which annoys the players. Repeat.
It's a shame really, a lot of this can be solved with tiny tweaks to class skills and passives. It just takes them so long. (years)

That's not exactly true. Tweak one thing and something else changes and needs to be tweaked. Combat design needs and overhaul at this point. They are just doing what they can to throw PVP a bone here and there but they don't have incentive to get invested beyond that.

Bushido2513

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

As a PVP player myself, it’s simple. This is not a PVP game, it was at launch but hasn’t been for years. PVP is still in the game but all the focus is on PVE and even making it more like a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game than anything else. That is fine, just have to accept we aren’t the target market. PVP players keep expecting PVP updates or focus, it isn’t going to happen if it hasn’t in years. What sucks as PVP mmorpg gamers, we don’t really other options.

I do think this is what people need to accept. We do have options but it's just hard to even think about rebuilding or trusting another company not to do what's been done here. It's just funny to see how many here are in that cycle of complaining about a bad relationship instead of either accepting it and enjoying what you can or moving on.

Stx

It’s not PvE or PvP players that pay the bills for this game. It’s player housing fanatics and players who like or care about cosmetics.

As far as why the devs have a poor relationship with the player base…. Just my opinion but I think the main reason is a certain portion of players are fed up with the class changes and combat balance changes that have been happening over the course of the last six years or maybe even since the game was released.

I’m not going to insult the dev team here, so let me phrase it this way: Some may think they just don’t know what they’re doing, or at least are out of touch with what the game needs combat wise. This is supported by infrequent but drastic changes to fundamental combat mechanics like what we saw with update 35 and also in previous updates like when they buffed dots by a ton, then later nerfed them by a ton. Sometimes players overreact, but in an online game community there will always be bad apples and constructive apples, you just have to pay attention to the right ones.

And sometimes when the devs choose to communicate on what some vocal portions of the player base consider important issues, they have done so in an unprofessional and condescending way. Just not quite what you would expect from a studio of this caliber.

VaranisArano

I think a large part of it is players wanting something different that the Devs aren't going to give them. ZOS balances ESO's meta like its a game of "King of the Hill." Someone's always on top. Someone's always on bottom. And it changes periodically so that players don't get bored and leave.

Now, nobody is happy with the answer of "Your class is in the bottom and will be until we decide to shake up the meta again."

Nobody's thrilled about change for the sake of stopping stagnation like "So this overused skill is getting nerfed even though the class needs some help, and this underused skill is getting buffed even though the class as a whole doesn't."

And nobody wants to hear, "We added a bunch of power creep in the form of powerful new item sets, so we're nerfing those items and player DPS to keep it in check."

And nobody likes to think about, "Guys, we've got a new class launching in three months, so we're gonna nerf the existing classes to make it look good" even though that's exactly what ZOS did for wardens and necromancers.


Until you actually hit the point of quitting, Horizontal Progression is designed to keep unhappy players engaged long after the fun of new content has faded. The kicker is that it works. ZOS might have a pretty rough relationship with some portions of its playerbase, but the key word there is player. Lots of unhappy people still play and still spend money while on that long road to quitting.

i11ionward

In general, I want to thank ZOS for their way of monetization and donation. I'm not young anymore and I don't have time to grind all day long. But I started playing at the beginning of November last year, but today I have access to all the content, except perhaps the vet trials. At the same time, for pvp, I have all the necessary sets and mythics. In what other MMORPG is it possible to achieve high-end content in 3-4 months? In addition, I have confidence that after the release of a new chapter, my gear will not completely depreciate, and even after half a year of a break, I can quickly join the meta. But I would like more balance in pvp and less tank heal meta.

Lebkuchen

I know a restaurant owner who always says "Why can't customers just come in, give me their money and leave again?". Next time i see him i will tell him to get a job in the gaming industry

Animar111

[snip] given all the effort the devs take to improve the game, threads like this [snip] doesn’t contribute to the testing of a pts. @ZOS

[edited for baiting]

Elsonso

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think a large part of it is players wanting something different that the Devs aren't going to give them. ZOS balances ESO's meta like its a game of "King of the Hill." Someone's always on top. Someone's always on bottom. And it changes periodically so that players don't get bored and leave.

It is sort of like whack-a-mole. If one play style, class, set, or skill pops up too much, or more recently, never pops up at all, they adjust the game so that changes. Invariably, this causes something else to pop up, or not pop up, and the cycle continues. I still don't think they drive a meta. I think they just keep turning dials on popular and unpopular things, and the players dash back and forth trying to find the meta that spawns in response.

VaranisArano

Elsonso wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think a large part of it is players wanting something different that the Devs aren't going to give them. ZOS balances ESO's meta like its a game of "King of the Hill." Someone's always on top. Someone's always on bottom. And it changes periodically so that players don't get bored and leave.

It is sort of like whack-a-mole. If one play style, class, set, or skill pops up too much, or more recently, never pops up at all, they adjust the game so that changes. Invariably, this causes something else to pop up, or not pop up, and the cycle continues. I still don't think they drive a meta. I think they just keep turning dials on popular and unpopular things, and the players dash back and forth trying to find the meta that spawns in response.

Whack-a-mole is a great descriptor, by the way.

I'm sure its a bit of both. I'm inclined to say that the Devs create the meta, just because they are the ones who control all the changes to ESO, but players figure the meta out.

There's things ZOS does that creates shifts in the meta, like introducing powerful new gear sets and mythic items that they acknowledge were overperforming and later decide to nerf after watching it on the Live servers. There's been times they've decided "We're buffing DOTs this update" which of course ushered in a DOT meta. And obviously parses are pretty standard, so whenever ZOS touches the basic parts of combat, there are predictable knock-on effects throughout PVE.

But on the other hand, like you say, there's a certain method to what ZOS does. Oftentimes, the method seems more important than any end goal. Sometimes, buffing the underused thing is beneficial...and sometimes it's like "Who asked for Wardens to only get buffed using ice magic?" Or "Who asked for DK's to get Berserk just because U35 broke Empowered Chains in PVP?" Sometimes nerfing the overused thing is good...and sometimes it results in taking away options from classes who needed it. Necro self-harmony is a good example this patch, but I'm still bitter about losing Nightblade sap-tanks from PVE way back when.

So its not that ZOS wants there to be a DK meta in PVP, it's just that Empowered Chains needed a replacement buff after they broke the old one. The larger impact that's going to have on DK, whelp, the Devs will hope the lessened duration was enough to accomplish their goals. And it's not that ZOS hates Necros in PVP, it's just that it was Harmony's turn on the chopping block, no matter the cost.

Whether it benefits players or disappoints them, ZOS' goal is accomplished. Gameplay changes and some players might be unhappy, but they aren't bored.

Amottica

Melzo wrote: »

In all games, updates bring something good,

I see complaints in other games. I see people complaining because their class was nerfed or week and another class is to OP.

i11ionward wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I would say that if the money stopped rolling in and players formed a united voice that change would come much quicker but that's not what's happening. Currently I imagine money keeps coming in, some feedback is honored, some is not, people complain and the day starts over.

To play pvp you don't need to invest a lot of money in the crown store, you don't even need to buy new DLCs or chapters if there are no strong mythics or sets.
But I noticed that most of the requests on the PTS forum are from PVP players.
So the question is, should developers pay more attention to PVP if this area of the game brings less money than PVE?

This is a good point and similar to what I have said before that PvP is not monetized in ESO. I understand Zenimax attempted to monetize PvP by adding BGs behind a paywall but they had to move it to the base game because it was not getting enough support. If that is the case, and only Zenimax would know, I can understand PvP being a low priority. Ofc, I do not know if most requests are PvP related but there is clearly a number of them.

Jaimeh

I also think they need to work on their relationship with the community, because it's very antagonistic, especially in the last year. It was mostly coming from one particular dev (on the other hand the community managers are really helpful) but given their position, it made for a bad and unprofessional impression. Players provide so much feedback and free testing on the PTS cycles, and the devs view this almost with contempt. I think part of the problem is that they don't have the same playing experience as veteran players, and a lot of the changes they do is based on theory. Even so, they should be more forthcoming about their reasoning and not double down on their bad decisions, but keep an open mind and take feedback as an opportunity to make an even greater game. The sorc communication was frankly nonsensical from a sorc players' POV, and all the comments about monitoring other classes and making notes for the future, made me think that they pretty much don't have the time and/or personnel well-versed in combat to do more at a time. Which sucks for players playing anything than DK this upcoming patch. I don't think they will improve as long as the same people are behind the scenes, or unless there is a massive eso+ exodus, with accompanied feedback specifically mentioning communication.

Four_Fingers

IDK over the years as a PvP player I have spent more money on ESO than any other game in my gaming history.
I realize that PvE is the main focus and that PvP is just another game mode, but what PvP is there I expect it to at least work.

Bushido2513

Stx wrote: »

It’s not PvE or PvP players that pay the bills for this game. It’s player housing fanatics and players who like or care about cosmetics.

I'm pretty sure that misses a lot of marks. Housing and cosmetics are only good if you have someone to show them off to and that takes population. And in terms of generating population I would look at who ZOS looks to bring in when it comes to new players. They aren't pushing adverts for PVP they are pushing adverts for things that revolve around PVE primarily.

Bushido2513

Animar111 wrote: »

[snip] given all the effort the devs take to improve the game, threads like this [snip] doesn’t contribute to the testing of a pts. @ZOS

This would be true accept ZOS doesn't clearly communicate direction. I for one never said they needed to or at this point even care if they do but I respect that it's going to confuse people and end up in posts like this one. If you give people a voice and then do things that might upset them then you can expect they will use that voice from time to time to show the chip on their shoulders. That's fair I would think.

[edited to remove quote]

Bushido2513

Jaimeh wrote: »

I also think they need to work on their relationship with the community, because it's very antagonistic, especially in the last year. It was mostly coming from one particular dev (on the other hand the community managers are really helpful) but given their position, it made for a bad and unprofessional impression. Players provide so much feedback and free testing on the PTS cycles, and the devs view this almost with contempt. I think part of the problem is that they don't have the same playing experience as veteran players, and a lot of the changes they do is based on theory. Even so, they should be more forthcoming about their reasoning and not double down on their bad decisions, but keep an open mind and take feedback as an opportunity to make an even greater game. The sorc communication was frankly nonsensical from a sorc players' POV, and all the comments about monitoring other classes and making notes for the future, made me think that they pretty much don't have the time and/or personnel well-versed in combat to do more at a time. Which sucks for players playing anything than DK this upcoming patch. I don't think they will improve as long as the same people are behind the scenes, or unless there is a massive eso+ exodus, with accompanied feedback specifically mentioning communication.

I think they are as clear with their communication as they can be without straight up telling people the truth. It's just that sometimes people don't take the hint. I mean it's been flat out clear for some time what their objectives are. People just somehow think that asking for input on the PTS means they can bully ZOS with 0 leverage and that's just not what the situation is.

At this point, ask nicely, watch for the results you want and then vote with your dollars.

Bushido2513

Four_Fingers wrote: »

IDK over the years as a PvP player I have spent more money on ESO than any other game in my gaming history.
I realize that PvE is the main focus and that PvP is just another game mode, but what PvP is there I expect it to at least work.

Naw I think they've been pretty clear about what your level of expectation should be at this point lol. I mean it's been this way or a longgggggggg time and it's clear they could have fixed it if such was the priority. Not saying that your point doesn't logically make sense. They put pvp on the menu and it's not living up to the expectations but at the same time if you keep coming back and it's still not living up to anything then only one of you is confused about what this is.

Four_Fingers

My guild is what held PvP together for so long, but alas that has fallen apart.

Zastrix

1) Because they're catering too much to the super casuals and new players, breaking play-styles, builds and now encouraging to play as braindead builds (hold M1 only oakensorc).

2) Creating new sets which are the new meta each update for either PvE or PvP, making people refarm mats and gear, which makes people burn out. Also it breaks play-styles so people need to make new ones.

3) Change skills in such a way that the players using those skills don't like it but the devs don't seem to care too much about user input ergo no changing it or slightly altering it but still to be almost the same to the original devs idea even if the players still say it's bad. Also breaks play-style.

4) Three months for every update so if something sucks, well LOL better luck in 120 days! Breaking play-styles for at least a quarter of a year if that happens, usually for a few years.

5) No form of endgame reward system, literally everything cool and good is behind a paywall unless you want to farm for a zargothraxian amount of gold and buy some stuff which other people paid with their money.

Want more or is that enough?

Edit:

Oh and a special mention: Quite literally gaslighting the playerbase (oh the twitter post which doesn't even need to be mentioned). Even if it's not the devs directly, it's the devs SO's which do that.

Pelanora

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

It’s not PvE or PvP players that pay the bills for this game. It’s player housing fanatics and players who like or care about cosmetics.

I'm pretty sure that misses a lot of marks. Housing and cosmetics are only good if you have someone to show them off to and that takes population. And in terms of generating population I would look at who ZOS looks to bring in when it comes to new players. They aren't pushing adverts for PVP they are pushing adverts for things that revolve around PVE primarily.

I don't do anything in this game to show to others. I do it for myself and my own enjoyment. I don't spend for anyone else but me.

I don't know if you're here for some zos paris fashion week vibe but I'm sure not.

Pelanora

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I also think they need to work on their relationship with the community, because it's very antagonistic, especially in the last year. It was mostly coming from one particular dev (on the other hand the community managers are really helpful) but given their position, it made for a bad and unprofessional impression. Players provide so much feedback and free testing on the PTS cycles, and the devs view this almost with contempt. I think part of the problem is that they don't have the same playing experience as veteran players, and a lot of the changes they do is based on theory. Even so, they should be more forthcoming about their reasoning and not double down on their bad decisions, but keep an open mind and take feedback as an opportunity to make an even greater game. The sorc communication was frankly nonsensical from a sorc players' POV, and all the comments about monitoring other classes and making notes for the future, made me think that they pretty much don't have the time and/or personnel well-versed in combat to do more at a time. Which sucks for players playing anything than DK this upcoming patch. I don't think they will improve as long as the same people are behind the scenes, or unless there is a massive eso+ exodus, with accompanied feedback specifically mentioning communication.

I think they are as clear with their communication as they can be without straight up telling people the truth. It's just that sometimes people don't take the hint. I mean it's been flat out clear for some time what their objectives are. People just somehow think that asking for input on the PTS means they can bully ZOS with 0 leverage and that's just not what the situation is.

At this point, ask nicely, watch for the results you want and then vote with your dollars.

This is your consistent point in the threads and I'm not sure why. It's trivially true, and missing what everyone is trying to do in here.

There isn't a serious mulltiplayer game going that doesn't offer pvp, even minecraft, even roblox, which has the majority of the next gen players, even elden ring. Zos/Eso wld be mad to neglect it, and the sets they make and mythics they make for it, show they don't entirely. Idk why in all hell they cant sort their technology, but that seems to be primarily what is holding them back. Not willfulness.

What will undo eso, and maybe other multiplayers, is roblox. its short games have much less grind, and a generation of kids are learning they can get satisfaction more quickly than games like eso dish out. I don't see them putting up with the approach eso typically takes.

Eso is rebooting morrowind, and theres a whole generation of kids on roblox now who cldnt give a rats. Why wld that lure them over? If zos doesn't think about the next lot of players..... it's not going to see out the 2020s.

Bushido2513

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

It’s not PvE or PvP players that pay the bills for this game. It’s player housing fanatics and players who like or care about cosmetics.

I'm pretty sure that misses a lot of marks. Housing and cosmetics are only good if you have someone to show them off to and that takes population. And in terms of generating population I would look at who ZOS looks to bring in when it comes to new players. They aren't pushing adverts for PVP they are pushing adverts for things that revolve around PVE primarily.

I don't do anything in this game to show to others. I do it for myself and my own enjoyment. I don't spend for anyone else but me.

I don't know if you're here for some zos paris fashion week vibe but I'm sure not.

That just means you're a different part of the revenue stream for the game. Anyone who touches this game is part of the revenue stream just in larger or smaller degrees. Point is, new and existing PvE players are clearly the high priority targets though I admit in not sure how that particular pie is exactly split.

Bushido2513

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I also think they need to work on their relationship with the community, because it's very antagonistic, especially in the last year. It was mostly coming from one particular dev (on the other hand the community managers are really helpful) but given their position, it made for a bad and unprofessional impression. Players provide so much feedback and free testing on the PTS cycles, and the devs view this almost with contempt. I think part of the problem is that they don't have the same playing experience as veteran players, and a lot of the changes they do is based on theory. Even so, they should be more forthcoming about their reasoning and not double down on their bad decisions, but keep an open mind and take feedback as an opportunity to make an even greater game. The sorc communication was frankly nonsensical from a sorc players' POV, and all the comments about monitoring other classes and making notes for the future, made me think that they pretty much don't have the time and/or personnel well-versed in combat to do more at a time. Which sucks for players playing anything than DK this upcoming patch. I don't think they will improve as long as the same people are behind the scenes, or unless there is a massive eso+ exodus, with accompanied feedback specifically mentioning communication.

I think they are as clear with their communication as they can be without straight up telling people the truth. It's just that sometimes people don't take the hint. I mean it's been flat out clear for some time what their objectives are. People just somehow think that asking for input on the PTS means they can bully ZOS with 0 leverage and that's just not what the situation is.

At this point, ask nicely, watch for the results you want and then vote with your dollars.

This is your consistent point in the threads and I'm not sure why. It's trivially true, and missing what everyone is trying to do in here.

You make a great point! So yeah everyone comes in with their own agenda for change. Then mostly just remarks that change isn't happening, didn't happen fast enough, or wasn't the right change. This has actually been going on for a longgggg time.

If that's the case maybe there's a better way or no way at all but if people only spend time thinking about the former over the latter then the cycle probably mostly doesn't change.

Bushido2513

Pelanora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I also think they need to work on their relationship with the community, because it's very antagonistic, especially in the last year. It was mostly coming from one particular dev (on the other hand the community managers are really helpful) but given their position, it made for a bad and unprofessional impression. Players provide so much feedback and free testing on the PTS cycles, and the devs view this almost with contempt. I think part of the problem is that they don't have the same playing experience as veteran players, and a lot of the changes they do is based on theory. Even so, they should be more forthcoming about their reasoning and not double down on their bad decisions, but keep an open mind and take feedback as an opportunity to make an even greater game. The sorc communication was frankly nonsensical from a sorc players' POV, and all the comments about monitoring other classes and making notes for the future, made me think that they pretty much don't have the time and/or personnel well-versed in combat to do more at a time. Which sucks for players playing anything than DK this upcoming patch. I don't think they will improve as long as the same people are behind the scenes, or unless there is a massive eso+ exodus, with accompanied feedback specifically mentioning communication.

I think they are as clear with their communication as they can be without straight up telling people the truth. It's just that sometimes people don't take the hint. I mean it's been flat out clear for some time what their objectives are. People just somehow think that asking for input on the PTS means they can bully ZOS with 0 leverage and that's just not what the situation is.

At this point, ask nicely, watch for the results you want and then vote with your dollars.

Idk why in all hell they cant sort their technology, but that seems to be primarily what is holding them back.


If zos doesn't think about the next lot of players..... it's not going to see out the 2020s.

Sorry for the double post/quote.

Can't isn't the proper word here and that's proven by seeing what they've been able to do when they throw resources at the issue.

If there's one thing ZOS does know it's how to continue to turn a profit even to the point of understanding they can't please everyone. I'm sure they have quite the plan for the future to keep the money flowing.

Pelanora

Re booting morrowind is not someone who plans for the future. It's someone who is holding on to the past.