Irritating PVP keep runners exploiting LOS

Heals_With_Orbs

I'm sure this has been mentioned numerous times already, but I can't help notice that Cyrodiil is full of players who gallop into a fort, head for the towers and basically annoy people for the next 20 minutes with their over powered ridiculous cheese builds that take 30 people to get rid of them..

I'm not really sure that ZOS intended this style of play, but I understand that many share the opinion that they are just a complete nuisance

One of their traits is to run for the place where there's a wooden crate, move out of the LOS and back up the stairs and play cat and mouse.

I understand that correcting the general LOS is a huge task and something that will never happen due to the sheer amount of work required, but its also quite amusing in PVE where NPCS "exploit" this by firing magic arrows that not only bend around corners, but also pass through solid stone walls.....

ZOS - do us all a favour please, if you have no intention of ever fixing your LOS programming that should never have passed a quality control test as least hire your in house "decorating team" to remove those wooden crates in those fort towers to reduce the number of these 24/7 tower runnerZ, perhaps put down a nice carpet instead

Holycannoli

I ignore them.

PvP moved too far into a tanky meta since last summer while nerfing DoTs to uselessness and it saps the fun out Cyrodiil. There are builds that are so tanky they can jump off a wall and burn down enemy siege while getting pummeled. It's no good. These same players love to run around keeps and towers. I don't blame them, they're playing the game as it's currently balanced. I blame the devs for U35.

Grim_Slaughterfish

Should just add a stacking dot damage to enemy players inside of an unflagged keep. Kind of like the slaughterfish dot. They can still be trolls but at least need to make effort to keep the place flagged.

MEBengalsFan2001

Making roles matter in PVP would get ride of this play style.

For instance capping resistance for DPS and Healer roles would allow others to kill these roles faster.
Reducing healing output for DPS and Tanks would make it so that these classes are easier to kill faster.
Reducing the damage of tanks and healer roles wouldn't allow them to produce as high damage as a DPS role.

Making roles matter more in this game would greatly improve PVE and PVP. I've seen it implemented well in other games and it is about time ESO makes roles matter more in PVP and PVE group content.

finehair

Well their aim is to make nuisance, and draw people to them while the main bulk can enter and kill the chasers.
Only way to win in that kind of cat mouse chase is not to play.
I also do that, ride into tower with my horsey draw some bloodthirsty fellas to my arse then keep playing with them in the walls until our zerg enters and kills them for me

React

finehair wrote: »

Well their aim is to make nuisance, and draw people to them while the main bulk can enter and kill the chasers.
Only way to win in that kind of cat mouse chase is not to play.
I also do that, ride into tower with my horsey draw some bloodthirsty fellas to my arse then keep playing with them in the walls until our zerg enters and kills them for me

The aim for most of those people really is just to fight outnumbered. LOS is generally the only way to win a solo outnumbered fight.

You could just ignore them. It isn't like a single player in your keep is going to be able to siege/flip it by themselves - if it unflags while they're trying to take the flags, they won't be able to continue flipping it.

axi

So You want one of the last ways to play outnumbered removed because You can't zerg down a player whom You could just ignore and move on?

Personofsecrets

LOS and other targeting issues are the number one thing that disinterest me about ESO pvp.

SCP343

if someone is too tanky or keeps doing LOS you don't have to chase them. If there were no towers, landforms and objects in the game, the side with the most numbers in the cyrodiil would always win. There are wars in history where smaller armies defeat large armies. I can't understand why it's considered something that shouldn't happen when it's adapted to the game.

Holycannoli

SCP343 wrote: »

if someone is too tanky or keeps doing LOS you don't have to chase them. If there were no towers, landforms and objects in the game, the side with the most numbers in the cyrodiil would always win. There are wars in history where smaller armies defeat large armies. I can't understand why it's considered something that shouldn't happen when it's adapted to the game.

The smaller armies won by running around boxes and towers like some Benny Hill skit.

Dem_kitkats1

axi wrote: »

So You want one of the last ways to play outnumbered removed because You can't zerg down a player whom You could just ignore and move on?

It should not be as difficult as it is for a large group of players to take down 1 player or a duo. At this point you don't even need LOS to out mitigate a substantial amount of damage. Ignore them, and they start capping rss and flagging fortifications because they are looking for fights. So you'll waste time chasing behind them, and recovering what they've taken.

SCP343 wrote: »

I can't understand why it's considered something that shouldn't happen when it's adapted to the game.

The problem is that if they can do all of that on an individual level, imagine what you can do with min-maxed groups. And we see the results of that with many BGs. PvP is no longer fun when people become invincible and fights become long, drawn out stalemates.

Holycannoli

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

The problem is that if they can do all of that on an individual level, imagine what you can do with min-maxed groups. And we see the results of that with many BGs. PvP is no longer fun when people become invincible and fights become long, drawn out stalemates.

It happens a lot in the gate keeps. An organized ball group gets in and just runs around up top for a while. They're not accomplishing anything they're just running around until they get bored.

Necrotech_Master

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Making roles matter in PVP would get ride of this play style.

For instance capping resistance for DPS and Healer roles would allow others to kill these roles faster.
Reducing healing output for DPS and Tanks would make it so that these classes are easier to kill faster.
Reducing the damage of tanks and healer roles wouldn't allow them to produce as high damage as a DPS role.

Making roles matter more in this game would greatly improve PVE and PVP. I've seen it implemented well in other games and it is about time ESO makes roles matter more in PVP and PVE group content.

roles do matter in pve quite a bit, at least for trials (4 man content is mixed though a balanced team is usually a safer bet)

but i agree that it would make sense in pvp, and something that could be applied to battle spirit (if your armor is >x then -dmg dealt type of thing)

Holycannoli

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Making roles matter in PVP would get ride of this play style.

For instance capping resistance for DPS and Healer roles would allow others to kill these roles faster.
Reducing healing output for DPS and Tanks would make it so that these classes are easier to kill faster.
Reducing the damage of tanks and healer roles wouldn't allow them to produce as high damage as a DPS role.

Making roles matter more in this game would greatly improve PVE and PVP. I've seen it implemented well in other games and it is about time ESO makes roles matter more in PVP and PVE group content.

Yes they need to decouple the stats. DPS and healing should be based off completely separate stats.

If ESO was based on earlier Elder Scrolls titles we would have to choose what we specialized in (restoration, destruction, axes, bows, conjuration etc.) but it's based on Skyrim which dumbed-down everything and made the DPS stat the same as the healing stat. Fine for a single-player game where you're supposed to do it all but not so much for a MMORPG, as we can see every time we step into Cyrodiil.

Healing is the biggest problem. It's totally out of control. And not only that but damage has been nerfed, especially DoTs which used to give a considerable amount of pressure. If you don't build for the big burst you are gimping yourself. Damage every 2 seconds in a game where healing is out of control and purging is either easy or automated via sets? May as well be using a pea shooter.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Holycannoli wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Making roles matter in PVP would get ride of this play style.

For instance capping resistance for DPS and Healer roles would allow others to kill these roles faster.
Reducing healing output for DPS and Tanks would make it so that these classes are easier to kill faster.
Reducing the damage of tanks and healer roles wouldn't allow them to produce as high damage as a DPS role.

Making roles matter more in this game would greatly improve PVE and PVP. I've seen it implemented well in other games and it is about time ESO makes roles matter more in PVP and PVE group content.

Yes they need to decouple the stats. DPS and healing should be based off completely separate stats.

If ESO was based on earlier Elder Scrolls titles we would have to choose what we specialized in (restoration, destruction, axes, bows, conjuration etc.) but it's based on Skyrim which dumbed-down everything and made the DPS stat the same as the healing stat. Fine for a single-player game where you're supposed to do it all but not so much for a MMORPG, as we can see every time we step into Cyrodiil.

Healing is the biggest problem. It's totally out of control. And not only that but damage has been nerfed, especially DoTs which used to give a considerable amount of pressure. If you don't build for the big burst you are gimping yourself. Damage every 2 seconds in a game where healing is out of control and purging is either easy or automated via sets? May as well be using a pea shooter.

Some of the best times in Cyro in my opinion where when they eliminated cross healing outside of a group. People with no friends that called themselves healers whined endlessly about it (really they are just bad players that just leach AP from a zerg), but it was I think a really good balance of TTK. It also made people far more self reliant which helps the balance issue as well.

I would not be opposed to scaling healing off something else, but it would require a LOT of work. You might also be able to do something about it with CP to some degree. For example, Fighting Finesse "increase critical damage by 8%, reduce critical healing by 8%", something like that. Right now, nobody outside of a trial healer bothers with any of the healing CP as far as I can tell.

To the OP, LOS is one of the best tools for defense, and it would be a massive undertaking to do anything about it. Tower humpers are there to farm pugs. They don't do anything else. Simply put, dont be a pug, aka, ignore them. Admittedly, that playstyle is much harder than most people think. Give it a try if you don't believe it.

Four_Fingers

Using the environment is part of pvp gameplay.
I was amazed the first time I saw someone like SypherPK use it so well.

Dem_kitkats1

Holycannoli wrote: »

It happens a lot in the gate keeps. An organized ball group gets in and just runs around up top for a while. They're not accomplishing anything they're just running around until they get bored.

For real. Disengage with them, and they'll cap it and move on to the next to continue farming, or return as soon as you try to recover it.

Jamie_Aubrey

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

I understand that correcting the general LOS is a huge task and something that will never happen due to the sheer amount of work required, but its also quite amusing in PVE where NPCS "exploit" this by firing magic arrows that not only bend around corners, but also pass through solid stone walls.....

I hate the NPC in the tower that can hit me from range but from the same spot I'm standing I CAN'T hit them

kargen27

"Some of the best times in Cyro in my opinion where when they eliminated cross healing outside of a group. People with no friends that called themselves healers whined endlessly about it (really they are just bad players that just leach AP from a zerg), but it was I think a really good balance of TTK."

Or they were the 13th member of their guild and the group didn't have an open slot for them. Even solo DPS complained about the change. If you were not part of a group during an offensive siege all you could do no matter your role was hide behind a pillar and hope an AoE didn't land on you. Without heals you couldn't get on siege equipment so solo DPS were just as useless as the healers.
It made the fights boring and almost always predetermined.

Thecompton73

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

I'm sure this has been mentioned numerous times already, but I can't help notice that Cyrodiil is full of players who gallop into a fort, head for the towers and basically annoy people for the next 20 minutes with their over powered ridiculous cheese builds that take 30 people to get rid of them..

I'm not really sure that ZOS intended this style of play, but I understand that many share the opinion that they are just a complete nuisance

One of their traits is to run for the place where there's a wooden crate, move out of the LOS and back up the stairs and play cat and mouse.

I understand that correcting the general LOS is a huge task and something that will never happen due to the sheer amount of work required, but its also quite amusing in PVE where NPCS "exploit" this by firing magic arrows that not only bend around corners, but also pass through solid stone walls.....

ZOS - do us all a favour please, if you have no intention of ever fixing your LOS programming that should never have passed a quality control test as least hire your in house "decorating team" to remove those wooden crates in those fort towers to reduce the number of these 24/7 tower runnerZ, perhaps put down a nice carpet instead

Hate to tell it to you but the update before last they actually devoted the time and resources to "fix" nearly every AOE to be better blocked by LOS. Along with single target Dot nerfs and hybrid healing we've been stuck in a troll tank meta for far too long now. My interest in playing has suffered quite a bit because of it.

Thecompton73

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

It happens a lot in the gate keeps. An organized ball group gets in and just runs around up top for a while. They're not accomplishing anything they're just running around until they get bored.

For real. Disengage with them, and they'll cap it and move on to the next to continue farming, or return as soon as you try to recover it.

When the best strategy in a PvP mode is NOT to fight the enemy and let them do as they please something is wrong.

disintegr8

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

It happens a lot in the gate keeps. An organized ball group gets in and just runs around up top for a while. They're not accomplishing anything they're just running around until they get bored.

For real. Disengage with them, and they'll cap it and move on to the next to continue farming, or return as soon as you try to recover it.

When the best strategy in a PvP mode is NOT to fight the enemy and let them do as they please something is wrong.

The truth is that you don't need to fight the enemy. PVP is such a wasteland these days, with limited campaign choices and a limited number of players.

The CP160 Non CP campaign on PS4 only has 1 day to go and only about 600 characters in total have played it (total of all factions), quite a few of them are just different toons of the same players.

Thecompton73

disintegr8 wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

It happens a lot in the gate keeps. An organized ball group gets in and just runs around up top for a while. They're not accomplishing anything they're just running around until they get bored.

For real. Disengage with them, and they'll cap it and move on to the next to continue farming, or return as soon as you try to recover it.

When the best strategy in a PvP mode is NOT to fight the enemy and let them do as they please something is wrong.

The truth is that you don't need to fight the enemy. PVP is such a wasteland these days, with limited campaign choices and a limited number of players.

The CP160 Non CP campaign on PS4 only has 1 day to go and only about 600 characters in total have played it (total of all factions), quite a few of them are just different toons of the same players.

Dead campaigns are a totally different issue. GH-NA PC is poplocked every single night at primetime and at any given time half of AD's resources are being trolled. Even though there are ample people to do it on the faction it's such a time consuming PitA to clear them few bother and AD loses literally hundreds of points every campaign because of it. Campaigns in which the winner is often decided by much less than the amount of points being lost to trolls.

Northwold

Isn't the OP describing the exact reason mediaeval castle defences were built the way they were? Why is this a problem?? Because a keep actually functions as a keep??

ArchMikem

Northwold wrote: »

Isn't the OP describing the exact reason mediaeval castle defences were built the way they were? Why is this a problem?? Because a keep actually functions as a keep??

Because it's the attacker doing this, not the defender.

Regardless though OP's complaints will go nowhere, this has been a problem for years. Problem for some, fun gameplay for others. They get off on wasting your time, picking off their chasers one by one when they can, and if they see you turn to leave and ignore them, they'll chase after you and most likely put you down. It's a lose lose. Just try to remember, if they're trying to goad people into chasing them thru the walls, then they're not attacking the objective.

Ignore them. When they're not chased, they get bored and move themselves out into the open.

Animus-ESO

I always laugh at people talking about these fabled "unstoppable tank builds that can kill hordes of people" what are you talking about. If 15 people just light attack one of these guys at the same time he will fold like a lawn chair. 80% of pugs are just brainless. One CC and two ults will erase someone if the people doing it are actually properly built. To build the damage to kill someone quickly you have to sacrifice some survivability. Either by reducing your max stam, sacrificing some of your resistance or reducing your magika.

geonsocal

exploiting line of sight is an interesting interpretation, like exploiting mara's balm, dark convergence, mythic's, arena weapons...

if it is in the game, it's in the game...

i play solo, like killing folks, so yeah, i wouldn't think to go all tank in cyro...but that's just me...

whatever happened to playing like you want...

Aektann

They not "exploiting" line of sight, they using it. These are players who just use the environment and movement much better than most of us.

Hesperax79

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Healing is the biggest problem. It's totally out of control.

Yes, I agree. I do not understand why do not try to solve this issue.
When I run Ballgroup I have ofter 3 or even 4 rapid regen on me sometimes...
No need to forbid the crossheal, but if they could maximalise the number of HOT and AOE effect on the target (f.e: max 1 Rapid Regen/target) this could help a lot and can be a good compromism.

Northwold

ArchMikem wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Isn't the OP describing the exact reason mediaeval castle defences were built the way they were? Why is this a problem?? Because a keep actually functions as a keep??

Because it's the attacker doing this, not the defender.

Indeed, but that is exactly what an attacker would do once they'd breached a castle in the real world. Once you have access to a castle or, in ESO, a keep, you have access to the very same defensive features that were supposed to be used against you.

Jaraal

Holycannoli wrote: »

I ignore them.

PvP moved too far into a tanky meta since last summer while nerfing DoTs to uselessness and it saps the fun out Cyrodiil. There are builds that are so tanky they can jump off a wall and burn down enemy siege while getting pummeled. It's no good. These same players love to run around keeps and towers. I don't blame them, they're playing the game as it's currently balanced. I blame the devs for U35.

Yep, the combination of nerfing DOTs and reducing the durations of ground mines, runes, and traps has gotten us to the point where ring around the rosie is the best play style in Cyrodiil.

It is 100% developer choice.