DPS Warden's Issues as of Update 37/Changes I would like to see in Update 38.

ESO_Nightingale

This will be my final post for Update 37's PTS addressed to the development team and specifically @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Gilliam but i'll also link the community team. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom. I wanted to list some changes that i think it would be good to see warden get in the next patch or 2, now that the dust of update 37 is pretty much settled.

I want to bring up some major community concerns from endgame as It's no secret that warden damage is very low right now.

Major endgame PvE community concerns for Warden DPS:

---

Using Charles' tierlist we can explain why this is from an endgame raider's viewpoint:

(timestamp is 11:05)
https://youtu.be/MQ0__RN_q8c?t=665

Charles' Comment on DPS Warden:
"Warden got buffed last patch, but sadly, it's still not doing a good job. Ice Staff warden has a lot of quality as a support damage dealer, but sadly it's just not going close to any other classes dps wise, for single target and aoe. The shalk(Subterranean Assault) nerf was terrible, the bleed bird(Cutting Dive) nerf was also extremely terrible and pretty much right now, the only situation you'll see warden in your (raid) composition is if you don't trust your tank in keeping up brittle. Because otherwise, the class has really really really bad sustain which forces you to play into parse food, which means low survivability as well. You have lower burst than other classes because you don't use an actual damage ult instantly. your ult is a pet that does damage over time, so you will spike lower than other classes. you are also more rng dependant because you don't run precise on your front staff anymore and to get good numbers on ice warden, you are pretty much locked into using the master's (ice) staff. without the master's (ice) staff, your numbers will be way lower than anything else so that means that you cannot use 2 5 piece item sets and it locks you out of a lot of really strong options such as tzogvin or advancing yokeda, as there is no yokeda ice staff anyway. so i wouldn't bring an ice staff warden at all as a damage dealer."

Thoughts and reasons as to the state of the class:

Damage:
As expected, the Subterranean Assault changes crippled our damage output significantly as it was roughly a 28% damage nerf to our strongest damage skill compared from update 34, losing the absurd power on cutting dive at the benefit of making it easier to use which, in my opinion, is a far better result as now it can be used as either a spammable skill or as a damage over time which gives it a lot of unique versatility. However this, coupled with the changes to piercing cold, glacial presence and advanced species in update 36, resulted in warden as whole dropping significantly. Frost Warden was able to catch up with the rest of warden and even being able to eek out a little ahead due to piercing cold only giving a 2% bonus to non ice staff users, however, the class is still in a rough state as a whole regarding damage dealer viability in endgame trial environments. the glacial presence changes aren't able to fix the entire class's low damage, but they did their job of bringing frost warden up with the other types of damage dealer warden builds

Sustain:
The other major topic often seen nowadays is just how rough sustain is on our class in pve environments. It really is extremely rough. Previous changes to increase the costs of our animal companions skills really hurt us and, our passives that restore resources are not coping. This is a major overall issue that can be addressed through sustain passive bonus increases. An example of which could be to change the bonus on florish to a flat amount rather than a percentage with the intended result of more magicka and stamina recovery overall.

Tideborn Taleria Bug:
This is a remaining issue for Dreadsail Reef fights, however the final boss Tideborn Taleria, is able to completely avoid Subterranean Assault and Deep Fissure. This has been reported several times and we still haven't recieved any information on it's progress as it's an extremely crucial bug for warden damage dealing.

---

Specific Skills i would like to see changes to in Update 38

Following the reasons for changes seen to Chains of Devastation, i think it's important to give love to some of the lesser used parts of Warden's kit.


Northern Storm:

This is a more complex issue, but @skinnycheeks explains it well in his recent video on suggestions for various classes.

https://youtu.be/absDiP-DWXc?t=737
Skinny's Comment on Northern Storm:
"The damage is low in PvE even by aoe standards. The bear is MILES ahead for single target damage and it's a lot of ultimate spent for a very short duration, so a possible solution would be to increase it's duration to 30 seconds instead of 8 seconds, but make it tick once every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second. this increases the damage per cast significantly while keeping the total damage in line with other ultimate aoes by halfing the tick frequency. This would also line it up perfectly with that weapon and spell damage bonus. the skill has such a cool look and feel to it but it's simply outperformed by other options in both single target and AoE at the moment, so putting it closer to the damage per cast of a destro ultimate, paired with those extra buffs that it provides, it would still be less bursty, but it would be better for longer aoe scenarios"

Thoughts on the video and suggestion:

I think this is a fantastic suggestion but it forgets about some other factors that tie into it.
As it is right now, we just have no reason to use northern storm in pve. A significant increase to it's damage per cast by increasing it's duration to 30 seconds, but halving it's tick frequency to once every 2 seconds would really give this ultimate a place in pve environments, along with bringing it a lot closer with wild guardian.
As it is now, we don't have any ultimate choices in pve except for specifically clearing trash, and being able to run northern storm in place of bear in some boss fights with a lot more adds would be a wonderful and welcome change for many of us.
However, this change effects PvP as well, which is where the morph is primarily used. I think a change like this to northern storm would also mean needing to bring up Permafrost's damage once again in order for it to be able to replace what northern storm currently does, this would probably come in exchange for it's increased duration. I think it would also be a good idea to remove major protection from northern storm in order to balance it for both pvp and pve play, as 30 seconds of aoe major protection and damage is hilariously broken. This would mean you would use northern storm in pve environments, and permafrost as a strong group ultimate or as a solo damage+self mitigation morph in pvp. Securing a strong reason to use both morphs in all content spheres and removing the restrictive need for Bear in every single boss fight

---

Frozen Retreat

Overview and issues:

Frozen Retreat is probably one of the most underused morphs in the entire game, let alone in Warden's kit. This morph is soon to have it's utility of player transportation taken by Arcanist's Apocryphal Gate which, coupled with it's abysmal use-rate, means it's in desperate need of a rework. In comparison to Frozen Device's ability to put major maim on it's pulled target, a synergy like Icy Escape is extremely niche especially with the limited range on it that only teleports the synergiser when the caster of Frozen Retreat is within 28 meters (I've tested this even in PvP where the range of skills is extended, it remains at roughly 28 meters). A major issue with having 2 morphs on a tanking skill that are both dedicated towards tanking means that you'll nearly always have 1 of the morphs be overshadowed by the better one. We've seen recently just how critically effective the split dps and tanking morph effects for Arctic Blast/Polar Wind, Frost Reach/Frost Clench and Winter's Revenge/Gripping Shards have been.

What could change?:

I believe that it's time for Frozen Retreat to recieve the same treatment as it's functionality as an armed trap suits it well in PvE environments. The synergy from frozen device could ultimately be shifted onto Frozen Device instead, so that tanks that currently do (for whatever reason) use Frozen Retreat can be compensated and not lose anything from this change, ultimately, it would allow the synergy to gain more use in regular environments. As for what effect the skill could gain, I believe that Frozen Retreat would act very well as an "execute" trap whereby it's damage would be minor until an enemy who triggers it, does so while at low health percentages. This would be a unique effect for trap skills in the game, and would nicely fit into warden's kit as they currently lack an execute ability outside of using bear as their ultimate ability, while also lacking damage.

---

Subterranean Assault/ Deep Fissure

Overview and issues:

As stated above with charles' video, the damage loss from Subterranean Assault has been gigantic and as of yet, it has not effectively been redistributed back within the kit or partially reverted. This is still considered a delayed burst damage skill, however due to a developer comment at the time we can see their intentions:

"The changes to Scorch and their morphs were done in attempts to try and help the class feel less intensely focused on buff management and allow for other actions in combat, while still trying to retain their burst-oriented nature, to a more balanced degree when comparing them to other burst skills and taking their total time before impact better into account. By separating the damage, we can also better allow the skill to function as a burst skill or a sustained DPS skill, where recasting it earlier will result in more total DPS, whereas waiting for the bigger explosion will result in those dopamine printing burst combos."

Zenimax believed that the class was too focused on buff management and they wanted to allow for other actions in combat. The note about Deep Fissure seems very well intentioned, where it's stated that you are supposed to recast the skill for more sustained damage, and to leave it for burst, however, due to critical sustain issues this causes and the risk/reward not being worth it, no-one recasts the skill. I also take a bit of a problem with "allowing other actions in combat", everyone already recasts damage over time skills in pve and this isn't an issue in pvp. what additional action are we supposed to take other than casting our spammable ability more? this isn't necessarily more fun and it was a common problem brought up at the time. we currently don't have any other delayed burst skill to weave in, or an execute, so this doesn't really feel like it means much.

What could change?:

There have been several suggestions for Deep Fissure and Subterranean Assault suggested in the past. Those being to change the morph effects of deep fissure and sub assault and to change their damage types to frost damage and bleed damage respectively, those changes would still be nice, but the thing that really matters is being able to redistribute lost damage back into the class damage skills, we could also recieve a bit more power into the base effect of piercing cold regardless of if you are using an ice staff or not.

---

Flourish

Issues and what could change:

Flourish is relatively okay, however the problem is just dps warden's sustain in general. % based increases to recovery tend to be awful when sustain stats are low, so increasing the bonus to 200 flat magicka and stamina recovery could help significantly in addition to cost reductions on frequently used skills.

---

TL:DR

In PvE Warden based DPS struggle with both damage dealing and sustain. several changes to help rebalance sustain and damage into warden's kit could help immensely alongside changing lesser used morphs to give them a place to be picked.

WrathOfInnos

Well said. I just want Shalks that hit hard again, ideally with the old 3s duration (or at most 4s) and work on Taleria.

If I'm really wishing I'd like Advanced Species to not be fully negated by a crit damage cap and group buffs (damage done % was better), and Piercing Cold to not mandate a weapon type (encouraging it is fine, like the old 10% bonus to frost damage did).

SEINTDARKNES

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

This will be my final post for Update 37's PTS addressed to the development team and specifically @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Gilliam but i'll also link the community team. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom. I wanted to list some changes that i think it would be good to see warden get in the next patch or 2, now that the dust of update 37 is pretty much settled.

I want to bring up some major community concerns from endgame as It's no secret that warden damage is very low right now.

Major endgame PvE community concerns for Warden DPS:

---

Using Charles' tierlist we can explain why this is from an endgame raider's viewpoint:

(timestamp is 11:05)
https://youtu.be/MQ0__RN_q8c?t=665

Charles' Comment on DPS Warden:
"Warden got buffed last patch, but sadly, it's still not doing a good job. Ice Staff warden has a lot of quality as a support damage dealer, but sadly it's just not going close to any other classes dps wise, for single target and aoe. The shalk(Subterranean Assault) nerf was terrible, the bleed bird(Cutting Dive) nerf was also extremely terrible and pretty much right now, the only situation you'll see warden in your (raid) composition is if you don't trust your tank in keeping up brittle. Because otherwise, the class has really really really bad sustain which forces you to play into parse food, which means low survivability as well. You have lower burst than other classes because you don't use an actual damage ult instantly. your ult is a pet that does damage over time, so you will spike lower than other classes. you are also more rng dependant because you don't run precise on your front staff anymore and to get good numbers on ice warden, you are pretty much locked into using the master's (ice) staff. without the master's (ice) staff, your numbers will be way lower than anything else so that means that you cannot use 2 5 piece item sets and it locks you out of a lot of really strong options such as tzogvin or advancing yokeda, as there is no yokeda ice staff anyway. so i wouldn't bring an ice staff warden at all as a damage dealer."

Thoughts and reasons as to the state of the class:

Damage:
As expected, the Subterranean Assault changes crippled our damage output significantly as it was roughly a 28% damage nerf to our strongest damage skill compared from update 34, losing the absurd power on cutting dive at the benefit of making it easier to use which, in my opinion, is a far better result as now it can be used as either a spammable skill or as a damage over time which gives it a lot of unique versatility. However this, coupled with the changes to piercing cold, glacial presence and advanced species in update 36, resulted in warden as whole dropping significantly. Frost Warden was able to catch up with the rest of warden and even being able to eek out a little ahead due to piercing cold only giving a 2% bonus to non ice staff users, however, the class is still in a rough state as a whole regarding damage dealer viability in endgame trial environments. the glacial presence changes aren't able to fix the entire class's low damage, but they did their job of bringing frost warden up with the other types of damage dealer warden builds

Sustain:
The other major topic often seen nowadays is just how rough sustain is on our class in pve environments. It really is extremely rough. Previous changes to increase the costs of our animal companions skills really hurt us and, our passives that restore resources are not coping. This is a major overall issue that can be addressed through sustain passive bonus increases. An example of which could be to change the bonus on florish to a flat amount rather than a percentage with the intended result of more magicka and stamina recovery overall.

Tideborn Taleria Bug:
This is a remaining issue for Dreadsail Reef fights, however the final boss Tideborn Taleria, is able to completely avoid Subterranean Assault and Deep Fissure. This has been reported several times and we still haven't recieved any information on it's progress as it's an extremely crucial bug for warden damage dealing.

---

Specific Skills i would like to see changes to in Update 38

Following the reasons for changes seen to Chains of Devastation, i think it's important to give love to some of the lesser used parts of Warden's kit.


Northern Storm:

This is a more complex issue, but @skinnycheeks explains it well in his recent video on suggestions for various classes.

https://youtu.be/absDiP-DWXc?t=737
Skinny's Comment on Northern Storm:
"The damage is low in PvE even by aoe standards. The bear is MILES ahead for single target damage and it's a lot of ultimate spent for a very short duration, so a possible solution would be to increase it's duration to 30 seconds instead of 8 seconds, but make it tick once every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second. this increases the damage per cast significantly while keeping the total damage in line with other ultimate aoes by halfing the tick frequency. This would also line it up perfectly with that weapon and spell damage bonus. the skill has such a cool look and feel to it but it's simply outperformed by other options in both single target and AoE at the moment, so putting it closer to the damage per cast of a destro ultimate, paired with those extra buffs that it provides, it would still be less bursty, but it would be better for longer aoe scenarios"

Thoughts on the video and suggestion:

I think this is a fantastic suggestion but it forgets about some other factors that tie into it.
As it is right now, we just have no reason to use northern storm in pve. A significant increase to it's damage per cast by increasing it's duration to 30 seconds, but halving it's tick frequency to once every 2 seconds would really give this ultimate a place in pve environments, along with bringing it a lot closer with wild guardian.
As it is now, we don't have any ultimate choices in pve except for specifically clearing trash, and being able to run northern storm in place of bear in some boss fights with a lot more adds would be a wonderful and welcome change for many of us.
However, this change effects PvP as well, which is where the morph is primarily used. I think a change like this to northern storm would also mean needing to bring up Permafrost's damage once again in order for it to be able to replace what northern storm currently does, this would probably come in exchange for it's increased duration. I think it would also be a good idea to remove major protection from northern storm in order to balance it for both pvp and pve play, as 30 seconds of aoe major protection and damage is hilariously broken. This would mean you would use northern storm in pve environments, and permafrost as a strong group ultimate or as a solo damage+self mitigation morph in pvp. Securing a strong reason to use both morphs in all content spheres and removing the restrictive need for Bear in every single boss fight

---

Frozen Retreat

Overview and issues:

Frozen Retreat is probably one of the most underused morphs in the entire game, let alone in Warden's kit. This morph is soon to have it's utility of player transportation taken by Arcanist's Apocryphal Gate which, coupled with it's abysmal use-rate, means it's in desperate need of a rework. In comparison to Frozen Device's ability to put major maim on it's pulled target, a synergy like Icy Escape is extremely niche especially with the limited range on it that only teleports the synergiser when the caster of Frozen Retreat is within 28 meters (I've tested this even in PvP where the range of skills is extended, it remains at roughly 28 meters). A major issue with having 2 morphs on a tanking skill that are both dedicated towards tanking means that you'll nearly always have 1 of the morphs be overshadowed by the better one. We've seen recently just how critically effective the split dps and tanking morph effects for Arctic Blast/Polar Wind, Frost Reach/Frost Clench and Winter's Revenge/Gripping Shards have been.

What could change?:

I believe that it's time for Frozen Retreat to recieve the same treatment as it's functionality as an armed trap suits it well in PvE environments. The synergy from frozen device could ultimately be shifted onto Frozen Device instead, so that tanks that currently do (for whatever reason) use Frozen Retreat can be compensated and not lose anything from this change, ultimately, it would allow the synergy to gain more use in regular environments. As for what effect the skill could gain, I believe that Frozen Retreat would act very well as an "execute" trap whereby it's damage would be minor until an enemy who triggers it, does so while at low health percentages. This would be a unique effect for trap skills in the game, and would nicely fit into warden's kit as they currently lack an execute ability outside of using bear as their ultimate ability, while also lacking damage.

---

Subterranean Assault/ Deep Fissure

Overview and issues:

As stated above with charles' video, the damage loss from Subterranean Assault has been gigantic and as of yet, it has not effectively been redistributed back within the kit or partially reverted. This is still considered a delayed burst damage skill, however due to a developer comment at the time we can see their intentions:

"The changes to Scorch and their morphs were done in attempts to try and help the class feel less intensely focused on buff management and allow for other actions in combat, while still trying to retain their burst-oriented nature, to a more balanced degree when comparing them to other burst skills and taking their total time before impact better into account. By separating the damage, we can also better allow the skill to function as a burst skill or a sustained DPS skill, where recasting it earlier will result in more total DPS, whereas waiting for the bigger explosion will result in those dopamine printing burst combos."

Zenimax believed that the class was too focused on buff management and they wanted to allow for other actions in combat. The note about Deep Fissure seems very well intentioned, where it's stated that you are supposed to recast the skill for more sustained damage, and to leave it for burst, however, due to critical sustain issues this causes and the risk/reward not being worth it, no-one recasts the skill. I also take a bit of a problem with "allowing other actions in combat", everyone already recasts damage over time skills in pve and this isn't an issue in pvp. what additional action are we supposed to take other than casting our spammable ability more? this isn't necessarily more fun and it was a common problem brought up at the time. we currently don't have any other delayed burst skill to weave in, or an execute, so this doesn't really feel like it means much.

What could change?:

There have been several suggestions for Deep Fissure and Subterranean Assault suggested in the past. Those being to change the morph effects of deep fissure and sub assault and to change their damage types to frost damage and bleed damage respectively, those changes would still be nice, but the thing that really matters is being able to redistribute lost damage back into the class damage skills, we could also recieve a bit more power into the base effect of piercing cold regardless of if you are using an ice staff or not.

---

Flourish

Issues and what could change:

Flourish is relatively okay, however the problem is just dps warden's sustain in general. % based increases to recovery tend to be awful when sustain stats are low, so increasing the bonus to 200 flat magicka and stamina recovery could help significantly in addition to cost reductions on frequently used skills.

---

TL:DR

In PvE Warden based DPS struggle with both damage dealing and sustain. several changes to help rebalance sustain and damage into warden's kit could help immensely alongside changing lesser used morphs to give them a place to be picked.

Coming from the pvp side i just want to give my feedback too because the changes can affect poorly the pvp side while benefits pve.

Northern storm:
Like you said i think dropping major protection for more damage could be really good because right now isn't a really strong ultimate.

*Also change the bear morph that nobody use into a ultimate burst? Pretty please?

Frozen retreat:
Is the worst chain skill type of the game because you need to wait 2-3 seconds until you pull 1 enemy, deals poor damage, isn't cheap, the animation is slow and so on, the morphs don't offer nothing good i suggest to be changed to something else because this and nature's grasp are the less used in the warden kit.

Subterranean Assault/ Deep Fissure:
I really like the change to damage types and the revet change of the damage but i would like to include we need to revert the timers to 3s, for deep fissure in pvp when you are fighting almost all the time when you need your burst damage you don't have it because you need to wait 9s, why 9s? Because the first damage doesn't deal really big damage and don't forget that the change was supposed to be so people will not predict your attack but right now everyone can predict the attack also if you miss the attack you only wasted your time, sometimes the terrain of the game can change the dirección of the skill same with the stairs can prevent to the skill to climb and get stuck.

Piercing cold:
The problem i see with the passive is it seems to imply that every warden want to play with an ice staff making Magdens and Stamdens suffer, i like the effort to make ice builds more usable and stronger but i would suggest to change the passive to buff: Bleed, ice, physical and magicka damage(physical and mag because not everyone want to use all bleed or all ice that way the option to chose is open to use the skill you like the most making the statement "Play the way you want" more realistic) but for making this change great we need to change the damage type of stamdens to bleed and magdens to frost.

I would like to give feedback in other parts warden needs help but i don't want to get off the topic of @ESO_Nightingale original post.

ESO_Nightingale

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Well said. I just want Shalks that hit hard again, ideally with the old 3s duration (or at most 4s) and work on Taleria.

If I'm really wishing I'd like Advanced Species to not be fully negated by a crit damage cap and group buffs (damage done % was better), and Piercing Cold to not mandate a weapon type (encouraging it is fine, like the old 10% bonus to frost damage did).

They should add some % back into the base increase for piercing cold. 4% or 5% would be more reasonable than 2%

WrathOfInnos

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Well said. I just want Shalks that hit hard again, ideally with the old 3s duration (or at most 4s) and work on Taleria.

If I'm really wishing I'd like Advanced Species to not be fully negated by a crit damage cap and group buffs (damage done % was better), and Piercing Cold to not mandate a weapon type (encouraging it is fine, like the old 10% bonus to frost damage did).

They should add some % back into the base increase for piercing cold. 4% or 5% would be more reasonable than 2%

Agreed that would help. I just strongly disagree with any class passive mandating a weapon type. That throws 90% of build options out the window. As if bow warden was overperforming, or lightning staff...

I would be fine if it was something like: 4% damage done, and an additional 12% to frost and bleed damage. That would mean Frost Staff is a good option, with a 16% boost to its ice skills. It would incentivize certain skills and morphs, like Rending Slashes and Ice Comet. I find it annoying that I lose 10% damage on everything, even my class frost skills (Winter's Revenge and Arctic Blast) just because the wrong element of destruction staff is in my hand. And Winter's Revenge loses an additional 30% damage with any non-destruction weapon type.

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

robpr

With Frozen Device, I don't understand why the skill create giant ass of a trap, but pulls only one thing. By its own its the best pulling trash ability of all 3 (the pull immobilizes instead of stunning). Imo it should pull all pullable enemies in range if trap arms under group's feet. Add the 'one target only' restiction to Battle Spirit if you feel it's gonna be too trolly in pvp.

For Frozen Retreat its useless, used in the past only for exploits with the ball in BGs. I don't mind turning it into Frost Scalding Rune. Reduce the cost, give it healthy timer and triple the Chill chance so people will stop relying on Arctic Blast so the sustain will get better.

Remove the autopurge from Netch. It gives more problems than its worth. Bump the resource restore, the purge can be moved to Living Trellis if its really needed. (thats solely Plaguebreak's fault, not Warden's)

Chill does enough damage for now but giving additional procs by turning magicka Shalks and/or magicka Swarm into frost damage won't hurt I guess.

Darkstorne

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

ESO_Nightingale

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

acastanza_ESO

One issue with any offensive buffs to warden is that it needs to be tempered with some defensive nerfs. Warden is extremely overperforming in PVP right now, right alongside DK for most overpowered PVP class.

Many of the suggested changes here would make Warden a straight up godmode PVP class.

The_Titan_Tim

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

One issue with any offensive buffs to warden is that it needs to be tempered with some defensive nerfs. Warden is extremely overperforming in PVP right now, right alongside DK for most overpowered PVP class.

Many of the suggested changes here would make Warden a straight up godmode PVP class.

You forgot Magicka Nightblade, but yeah MagDens when built right are quite a menace currently, I would like to see the Ice Staff perk detached from the class and see a “10% increased damage over time” added on the Destruction Staff skill line to compare with Lightning and Fire.

Edit; sorry forgot to add that if this change were to occur, all tanking utility would have to go from Ice Staff, it has no place on a Destruction Staff.

There’s a mythic for blocking with Magicka now.

ESO_Nightingale

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

One issue with any offensive buffs to warden is that it needs to be tempered with some defensive nerfs. Warden is extremely overperforming in PVP right now, right alongside DK for most overpowered PVP class.

Many of the suggested changes here would make Warden a straight up godmode PVP class.

That problem mostly lies in polar wind and arctic blast's healing, i believe another healing reduction to polar wind and a removal of the heal from arctic blast would be reasonable adjustments, however, an adjustment to fungal growth should be made in place to give warden back a strong magicka/stamina and wep/spell damage scaling self heal. This would be a strong nerf for a couple of reasons without simply removing a necessary pvp tool, firstly, it means needing another skill slot which means sacrificing a slot on your build, this is pretty huge by itself but in addition, it means needing another global in order to stun instead of both at once. It'll make it just that little bit harder to live if you need 2 globals to stun and then heal up.

As it stands, i think everyone can agree that arctic blast is too overloaded with different effects. An adjustment such as this would allow it to gain something else, a massive cost reduction would really help our awful sustain in pve for example.

Darkstorne

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

I'd still be sad about that

If frost staff is under performing in DPS, they should directly buff the frost staff, not provide that buff to only a single class. And as someone who plays a frost Warden with sword and shield, and with a two handed sword, I feel really disappointed that I'm missing out on so much extra damage by not using a frost staff. Especially with winter's revenge. The amount of extra damage I'm passing up on for the two handed sword visual flavour means I'm objectively playing the class wrong, and that's a terrible place for the game design to be.

Imagine if every class got tied so heavily to a single weapon type like Warden is right now 🤢🤮

Caribou77

I’ll agree many wardens are using high health high crit builds to spam polar wind & be unkillable in pvp, and that should be addressed; however, it’s important to note that warden still has no class execute nor class spammable for pvp. And the U35 nerf to deep fissure literally gutted it’s damage and utility. Currently, df does 200 more damage than concealed weapon, an instant-cast spammable.

So while magden’s heal via polar wind is op, damage skills are still mediocre, and very limited, compared to DK & NB.

I’d like to see deep fissure back at it’s pre U35 damage and cast time/cost.

Also, running frost reach with frontbar frost staff is the only viable pvp spammable for magden, which doesn’t synergize with a single skill in warden’s offensive skill line. Tight little pigeonhole for this class.

ESO_Nightingale

Caribou77 wrote: »

I’ll agree many wardens are using high health high crit builds to spam polar wind & be unkillable in pvp, and that should be addressed; however, it’s important to note that warden still has no class execute nor class spammable for pvp. And the U35 nerf to deep fissure literally gutted it’s damage and utility. Currently, df does 200 more damage than concealed weapon, an instant-cast spammable.

So while magden’s heal via polar wind is op, damage skills are still mediocre, and very limited, compared to DK & NB.

I’d like to see deep fissure back at it’s pre U35 damage and cast time/cost.

Also, running frost reach with frontbar frost staff is the only viable pvp spammable for magden, which doesn’t synergize with a single skill in warden’s offensive skill line. Tight little pigeonhole for this class.

Yep, it's defensives are great right now because of polar and arctic's performance. I think a damage buff through way of a buffed piercing cold and new damage skill in the way of a frozen retreat rework wouldn't make it overbearing. Traps are extremely hard to make reliably work in pvp environments and a small % buff means a lot more over the course of a long fight in pve than it does for pvp burst.

ESO_Nightingale

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

I'd still be sad about that

If frost staff is under performing in DPS, they should directly buff the frost staff, not provide that buff to only a single class. And as someone who plays a frost Warden with sword and shield, and with a two handed sword, I feel really disappointed that I'm missing out on so much extra damage by not using a frost staff. Especially with winter's revenge. The amount of extra damage I'm passing up on for the two handed sword visual flavour means I'm objectively playing the class wrong, and that's a terrible place for the game design to be.

Imagine if every class got tied so heavily to a single weapon type like Warden is right now 🤢🤮

The issue is that most of the frost damage skills are tied to the frost staff. There's only 2 viable dps skills on winter's embrace. Using an snb for dps is niche let alone on a frost dps build.

ESO_Nightingale

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

I'd still be sad about that

If frost staff is under performing in DPS, they should directly buff the frost staff, not provide that buff to only a single class. And as someone who plays a frost Warden with sword and shield, and with a two handed sword, I feel really disappointed that I'm missing out on so much extra damage by not using a frost staff. Especially with winter's revenge. The amount of extra damage I'm passing up on for the two handed sword visual flavour means I'm objectively playing the class wrong, and that's a terrible place for the game design to be.

Imagine if every class got tied so heavily to a single weapon type like Warden is right now 🤢🤮

i think if they tied anything to using a frost staff, it should be purely frost damage, not all damage like it is now.

Tyrion87

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

This will be my final post for Update 37's PTS addressed to the development team and specifically @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Gilliam but i'll also link the community team.

I highly doubt these people actively visit and read the forums, even during the PTS cycle. As their profiles show @ZOS_BrianWheeler was last active on January 30 and @ZOS_Gilliam... well, does he even still work for ZOS? The last time he was active here was in September 2022.

ESO_Nightingale

Tyrion87 wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

This will be my final post for Update 37's PTS addressed to the development team and specifically @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Gilliam but i'll also link the community team.

I highly doubt these people actively visit and read the forums, even during the PTS cycle. As their profiles show @ZOS_BrianWheeler was last active on January 30 and @ZOS_Gilliam... well, does he even still work for ZOS? The last time he was active here was in September 2022.

yeah i did notice that, i figured i might as well ping them anyway, but it has mostly just been the community team that's been active. doesn't hurt though which is why i did it.

Darkstorne

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

I'd still be sad about that

If frost staff is under performing in DPS, they should directly buff the frost staff, not provide that buff to only a single class. And as someone who plays a frost Warden with sword and shield, and with a two handed sword, I feel really disappointed that I'm missing out on so much extra damage by not using a frost staff. Especially with winter's revenge. The amount of extra damage I'm passing up on for the two handed sword visual flavour means I'm objectively playing the class wrong, and that's a terrible place for the game design to be.

Imagine if every class got tied so heavily to a single weapon type like Warden is right now 🤢🤮

The issue is that most of the frost damage skills are tied to the frost staff. There's only 2 viable dps skills on winter's embrace. Using an snb for dps is niche let alone on a frost dps build.

Well SnB is for my high health tank build for world bosses and dungeons, making use of damage that scales with health (so gripping shards, frozen watcher, turning tide).

My DPS build is 2h, so I use winter's revenge morph there, and while I agree it's a shame we only have two class frost dps skills, forcing the primary frost dps skill into using a destro staff for a whopping 30% dps boost to it, and a frost staff for another 10% damage boost to all damage, is just... bizarre. Like, why can't winter's revenge just be 30% stronger by default? Why lock all other weapon type builds out of being effective frost wardens?

ESO_Nightingale

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

I'd still be sad about that

If frost staff is under performing in DPS, they should directly buff the frost staff, not provide that buff to only a single class. And as someone who plays a frost Warden with sword and shield, and with a two handed sword, I feel really disappointed that I'm missing out on so much extra damage by not using a frost staff. Especially with winter's revenge. The amount of extra damage I'm passing up on for the two handed sword visual flavour means I'm objectively playing the class wrong, and that's a terrible place for the game design to be.

Imagine if every class got tied so heavily to a single weapon type like Warden is right now 🤢🤮

The issue is that most of the frost damage skills are tied to the frost staff. There's only 2 viable dps skills on winter's embrace. Using an snb for dps is niche let alone on a frost dps build.

Well SnB is for my high health tank build for world bosses and dungeons, making use of damage that scales with health (so gripping shards, frozen watcher, turning tide).

My DPS build is 2h, so I use winter's revenge morph there, and while I agree it's a shame we only have two class frost dps skills, forcing the primary frost dps skill into using a destro staff for a whopping 30% dps boost to it, and a frost staff for another 10% damage boost to all damage, is just... bizarre. Like, why can't winter's revenge just be 30% stronger by default? Why lock all other weapon type builds out of being effective frost wardens?

I agree on the all damage and destro staff 30% boost for winter's being unnecessary. The old frost damage boost was better in my opinion. Yes it didn't boost all damage, but it encouraged using frost damage, not specifically just a frost staff. I want to go back to a heavy increase to frost damage and either a lesser amount of all damage or the same amount of bleed.

Mik195

I just worry that they are so concerned about pay to win accusations that the intent is for warden and necromancer to always be bottom.

ESO_Nightingale

Mik195 wrote: »

I just worry that they are so concerned about pay to win accusations that the intent is for warden and necromancer to always be bottom.

soon arcanist is gonna join that pile

Darkstorne

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

I'd still be sad about that

If frost staff is under performing in DPS, they should directly buff the frost staff, not provide that buff to only a single class. And as someone who plays a frost Warden with sword and shield, and with a two handed sword, I feel really disappointed that I'm missing out on so much extra damage by not using a frost staff. Especially with winter's revenge. The amount of extra damage I'm passing up on for the two handed sword visual flavour means I'm objectively playing the class wrong, and that's a terrible place for the game design to be.

Imagine if every class got tied so heavily to a single weapon type like Warden is right now 🤢🤮

The issue is that most of the frost damage skills are tied to the frost staff. There's only 2 viable dps skills on winter's embrace. Using an snb for dps is niche let alone on a frost dps build.

Well SnB is for my high health tank build for world bosses and dungeons, making use of damage that scales with health (so gripping shards, frozen watcher, turning tide).

My DPS build is 2h, so I use winter's revenge morph there, and while I agree it's a shame we only have two class frost dps skills, forcing the primary frost dps skill into using a destro staff for a whopping 30% dps boost to it, and a frost staff for another 10% damage boost to all damage, is just... bizarre. Like, why can't winter's revenge just be 30% stronger by default? Why lock all other weapon type builds out of being effective frost wardens?

I agree on the all damage and destro staff 30% boost for winter's being unnecessary. The old frost damage boost was better in my opinion. Yes it didn't boost all damage, but it encouraged using frost damage, not specifically just a frost staff. I want to go back to a heavy increase to frost damage and either a lesser amount of all damage or the same amount of bleed.

Yes, that was so much better! And it still incentivized frost staff use since that weapon line's skills benefitted from the damage boost too. It just didn't force you to use a frost staff to make your class skills more powerful and to activate a massive 10% damage boost to all skills, even non-frost. All weapons were viable, which seemed to suit their over-arching design goals so much better than the current design.

It's a shame to think this is unlikely to change anytime soon though. Community noise is definitely weighted towards Sorcs, Templars, and Major Berserk atm.

ESO_Nightingale

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

In trying to make frost staff viable for dps and open up build diversity, they somehow made warden rely on one weapon type with zero build diversity. And frost staff is still terrible on 5/6 classes.

Yep. Yep yep yep.

I have no idea why they're still insisting on this even after publishing their combat "deep dive" letter that this design clearly conflicts with.

Also @ESO_Nightingale, thanks for consistently (and so patiently) making incredibly valuable and well presented feedback posts like these each patch cycle. You do a great job at relaying community concerns and backing them up with evidence. I hope the team at ZOS starts to see that too.

I'd like to see it changed at least to 5% increased damage and 5% frost damage with the frost portion increasing to 15% with a frost staff equipped.

I'd still be sad about that

If frost staff is under performing in DPS, they should directly buff the frost staff, not provide that buff to only a single class. And as someone who plays a frost Warden with sword and shield, and with a two handed sword, I feel really disappointed that I'm missing out on so much extra damage by not using a frost staff. Especially with winter's revenge. The amount of extra damage I'm passing up on for the two handed sword visual flavour means I'm objectively playing the class wrong, and that's a terrible place for the game design to be.

Imagine if every class got tied so heavily to a single weapon type like Warden is right now 🤢🤮

The issue is that most of the frost damage skills are tied to the frost staff. There's only 2 viable dps skills on winter's embrace. Using an snb for dps is niche let alone on a frost dps build.

Well SnB is for my high health tank build for world bosses and dungeons, making use of damage that scales with health (so gripping shards, frozen watcher, turning tide).

My DPS build is 2h, so I use winter's revenge morph there, and while I agree it's a shame we only have two class frost dps skills, forcing the primary frost dps skill into using a destro staff for a whopping 30% dps boost to it, and a frost staff for another 10% damage boost to all damage, is just... bizarre. Like, why can't winter's revenge just be 30% stronger by default? Why lock all other weapon type builds out of being effective frost wardens?

I agree on the all damage and destro staff 30% boost for winter's being unnecessary. The old frost damage boost was better in my opinion. Yes it didn't boost all damage, but it encouraged using frost damage, not specifically just a frost staff. I want to go back to a heavy increase to frost damage and either a lesser amount of all damage or the same amount of bleed.

Yes, that was so much better! And it still incentivized frost staff use since that weapon line's skills benefitted from the damage boost too. It just didn't force you to use a frost staff to make your class skills more powerful and to activate a massive 10% damage boost to all skills, even non-frost. All weapons were viable, which seemed to suit their over-arching design goals so much better than the current design.

It's a shame to think this is unlikely to change anytime soon though. Community noise is definitely weighted towards Sorcs, Templars, and Major Berserk atm.

this much is very true, the only thing i can see them actually changing within the next few patches is frozen retreat.

ESO_Nightingale

SEINTDARKNES wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

This will be my final post for Update 37's PTS addressed to the development team and specifically @ZOS_BrianWheeler and @ZOS_Gilliam but i'll also link the community team. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom. I wanted to list some changes that i think it would be good to see warden get in the next patch or 2, now that the dust of update 37 is pretty much settled.

I want to bring up some major community concerns from endgame as It's no secret that warden damage is very low right now.

Major endgame PvE community concerns for Warden DPS:

---

Using Charles' tierlist we can explain why this is from an endgame raider's viewpoint:

(timestamp is 11:05)
https://youtu.be/MQ0__RN_q8c?t=665

Charles' Comment on DPS Warden:
"Warden got buffed last patch, but sadly, it's still not doing a good job. Ice Staff warden has a lot of quality as a support damage dealer, but sadly it's just not going close to any other classes dps wise, for single target and aoe. The shalk(Subterranean Assault) nerf was terrible, the bleed bird(Cutting Dive) nerf was also extremely terrible and pretty much right now, the only situation you'll see warden in your (raid) composition is if you don't trust your tank in keeping up brittle. Because otherwise, the class has really really really bad sustain which forces you to play into parse food, which means low survivability as well. You have lower burst than other classes because you don't use an actual damage ult instantly. your ult is a pet that does damage over time, so you will spike lower than other classes. you are also more rng dependant because you don't run precise on your front staff anymore and to get good numbers on ice warden, you are pretty much locked into using the master's (ice) staff. without the master's (ice) staff, your numbers will be way lower than anything else so that means that you cannot use 2 5 piece item sets and it locks you out of a lot of really strong options such as tzogvin or advancing yokeda, as there is no yokeda ice staff anyway. so i wouldn't bring an ice staff warden at all as a damage dealer."

Thoughts and reasons as to the state of the class:

Damage:
As expected, the Subterranean Assault changes crippled our damage output significantly as it was roughly a 28% damage nerf to our strongest damage skill compared from update 34, losing the absurd power on cutting dive at the benefit of making it easier to use which, in my opinion, is a far better result as now it can be used as either a spammable skill or as a damage over time which gives it a lot of unique versatility. However this, coupled with the changes to piercing cold, glacial presence and advanced species in update 36, resulted in warden as whole dropping significantly. Frost Warden was able to catch up with the rest of warden and even being able to eek out a little ahead due to piercing cold only giving a 2% bonus to non ice staff users, however, the class is still in a rough state as a whole regarding damage dealer viability in endgame trial environments. the glacial presence changes aren't able to fix the entire class's low damage, but they did their job of bringing frost warden up with the other types of damage dealer warden builds

Sustain:
The other major topic often seen nowadays is just how rough sustain is on our class in pve environments. It really is extremely rough. Previous changes to increase the costs of our animal companions skills really hurt us and, our passives that restore resources are not coping. This is a major overall issue that can be addressed through sustain passive bonus increases. An example of which could be to change the bonus on florish to a flat amount rather than a percentage with the intended result of more magicka and stamina recovery overall.

Tideborn Taleria Bug:
This is a remaining issue for Dreadsail Reef fights, however the final boss Tideborn Taleria, is able to completely avoid Subterranean Assault and Deep Fissure. This has been reported several times and we still haven't recieved any information on it's progress as it's an extremely crucial bug for warden damage dealing.

---

Specific Skills i would like to see changes to in Update 38

Following the reasons for changes seen to Chains of Devastation, i think it's important to give love to some of the lesser used parts of Warden's kit.


Northern Storm:

This is a more complex issue, but @skinnycheeks explains it well in his recent video on suggestions for various classes.

https://youtu.be/absDiP-DWXc?t=737
Skinny's Comment on Northern Storm:
"The damage is low in PvE even by aoe standards. The bear is MILES ahead for single target damage and it's a lot of ultimate spent for a very short duration, so a possible solution would be to increase it's duration to 30 seconds instead of 8 seconds, but make it tick once every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second. this increases the damage per cast significantly while keeping the total damage in line with other ultimate aoes by halfing the tick frequency. This would also line it up perfectly with that weapon and spell damage bonus. the skill has such a cool look and feel to it but it's simply outperformed by other options in both single target and AoE at the moment, so putting it closer to the damage per cast of a destro ultimate, paired with those extra buffs that it provides, it would still be less bursty, but it would be better for longer aoe scenarios"

Thoughts on the video and suggestion:

I think this is a fantastic suggestion but it forgets about some other factors that tie into it.
As it is right now, we just have no reason to use northern storm in pve. A significant increase to it's damage per cast by increasing it's duration to 30 seconds, but halving it's tick frequency to once every 2 seconds would really give this ultimate a place in pve environments, along with bringing it a lot closer with wild guardian.
As it is now, we don't have any ultimate choices in pve except for specifically clearing trash, and being able to run northern storm in place of bear in some boss fights with a lot more adds would be a wonderful and welcome change for many of us.
However, this change effects PvP as well, which is where the morph is primarily used. I think a change like this to northern storm would also mean needing to bring up Permafrost's damage once again in order for it to be able to replace what northern storm currently does, this would probably come in exchange for it's increased duration. I think it would also be a good idea to remove major protection from northern storm in order to balance it for both pvp and pve play, as 30 seconds of aoe major protection and damage is hilariously broken. This would mean you would use northern storm in pve environments, and permafrost as a strong group ultimate or as a solo damage+self mitigation morph in pvp. Securing a strong reason to use both morphs in all content spheres and removing the restrictive need for Bear in every single boss fight

---

Frozen Retreat

Overview and issues:

Frozen Retreat is probably one of the most underused morphs in the entire game, let alone in Warden's kit. This morph is soon to have it's utility of player transportation taken by Arcanist's Apocryphal Gate which, coupled with it's abysmal use-rate, means it's in desperate need of a rework. In comparison to Frozen Device's ability to put major maim on it's pulled target, a synergy like Icy Escape is extremely niche especially with the limited range on it that only teleports the synergiser when the caster of Frozen Retreat is within 28 meters (I've tested this even in PvP where the range of skills is extended, it remains at roughly 28 meters). A major issue with having 2 morphs on a tanking skill that are both dedicated towards tanking means that you'll nearly always have 1 of the morphs be overshadowed by the better one. We've seen recently just how critically effective the split dps and tanking morph effects for Arctic Blast/Polar Wind, Frost Reach/Frost Clench and Winter's Revenge/Gripping Shards have been.

What could change?:

I believe that it's time for Frozen Retreat to recieve the same treatment as it's functionality as an armed trap suits it well in PvE environments. The synergy from frozen device could ultimately be shifted onto Frozen Device instead, so that tanks that currently do (for whatever reason) use Frozen Retreat can be compensated and not lose anything from this change, ultimately, it would allow the synergy to gain more use in regular environments. As for what effect the skill could gain, I believe that Frozen Retreat would act very well as an "execute" trap whereby it's damage would be minor until an enemy who triggers it, does so while at low health percentages. This would be a unique effect for trap skills in the game, and would nicely fit into warden's kit as they currently lack an execute ability outside of using bear as their ultimate ability, while also lacking damage.

---

Subterranean Assault/ Deep Fissure

Overview and issues:

As stated above with charles' video, the damage loss from Subterranean Assault has been gigantic and as of yet, it has not effectively been redistributed back within the kit or partially reverted. This is still considered a delayed burst damage skill, however due to a developer comment at the time we can see their intentions:

"The changes to Scorch and their morphs were done in attempts to try and help the class feel less intensely focused on buff management and allow for other actions in combat, while still trying to retain their burst-oriented nature, to a more balanced degree when comparing them to other burst skills and taking their total time before impact better into account. By separating the damage, we can also better allow the skill to function as a burst skill or a sustained DPS skill, where recasting it earlier will result in more total DPS, whereas waiting for the bigger explosion will result in those dopamine printing burst combos."

Zenimax believed that the class was too focused on buff management and they wanted to allow for other actions in combat. The note about Deep Fissure seems very well intentioned, where it's stated that you are supposed to recast the skill for more sustained damage, and to leave it for burst, however, due to critical sustain issues this causes and the risk/reward not being worth it, no-one recasts the skill. I also take a bit of a problem with "allowing other actions in combat", everyone already recasts damage over time skills in pve and this isn't an issue in pvp. what additional action are we supposed to take other than casting our spammable ability more? this isn't necessarily more fun and it was a common problem brought up at the time. we currently don't have any other delayed burst skill to weave in, or an execute, so this doesn't really feel like it means much.

What could change?:

There have been several suggestions for Deep Fissure and Subterranean Assault suggested in the past. Those being to change the morph effects of deep fissure and sub assault and to change their damage types to frost damage and bleed damage respectively, those changes would still be nice, but the thing that really matters is being able to redistribute lost damage back into the class damage skills, we could also recieve a bit more power into the base effect of piercing cold regardless of if you are using an ice staff or not.

---

Flourish

Issues and what could change:

Flourish is relatively okay, however the problem is just dps warden's sustain in general. % based increases to recovery tend to be awful when sustain stats are low, so increasing the bonus to 200 flat magicka and stamina recovery could help significantly in addition to cost reductions on frequently used skills.

---

TL:DR

In PvE Warden based DPS struggle with both damage dealing and sustain. several changes to help rebalance sustain and damage into warden's kit could help immensely alongside changing lesser used morphs to give them a place to be picked.

Coming from the pvp side i just want to give my feedback too because the changes can affect poorly the pvp side while benefits pve.

Northern storm:
Like you said i think dropping major protection for more damage could be really good because right now isn't a really strong ultimate.

*Also change the bear morph that nobody use into a ultimate burst? Pretty please?

Frozen retreat:
Is the worst chain skill type of the game because you need to wait 2-3 seconds until you pull 1 enemy, deals poor damage, isn't cheap, the animation is slow and so on, the morphs don't offer nothing good i suggest to be changed to something else because this and nature's grasp are the less used in the warden kit.

Subterranean Assault/ Deep Fissure:
I really like the change to damage types and the revet change of the damage but i would like to include we need to revert the timers to 3s, for deep fissure in pvp when you are fighting almost all the time when you need your burst damage you don't have it because you need to wait 9s, why 9s? Because the first damage doesn't deal really big damage and don't forget that the change was supposed to be so people will not predict your attack but right now everyone can predict the attack also if you miss the attack you only wasted your time, sometimes the terrain of the game can change the dirección of the skill same with the stairs can prevent to the skill to climb and get stuck.

Piercing cold:
The problem i see with the passive is it seems to imply that every warden want to play with an ice staff making Magdens and Stamdens suffer, i like the effort to make ice builds more usable and stronger but i would suggest to change the passive to buff: Bleed, ice, physical and magicka damage(physical and mag because not everyone want to use all bleed or all ice that way the option to chose is open to use the skill you like the most making the statement "Play the way you want" more realistic) but for making this change great we need to change the damage type of stamdens to bleed and magdens to frost.

I would like to give feedback in other parts warden needs help but i don't want to get off the topic of @ESO_Nightingale original post.

i think frozen retreat is the best option we have for an execute skill. it literally does nothing right now and they could legitimately remove the synergy or move it to frozen device. 2 morphs both meant for tanking just doesn't work.

Sergykid

Mik195 wrote: »

I just worry that they are so concerned about pay to win accusations that the intent is for warden and necromancer to always be bottom.

very unlikely that they're concerned by p2w accusations.
but warden and necro aren't even p2w, u can get them as gifts with ingame gold.

p2w is "stronger, and access only with real money" which arcanist will be if obtainable only with chapter purchase.

what is certain is that sets tied to trial or chapter zone like mythics will be p2w if stronger, like oakensoul is/was p2w with high isle

Darkstorne

Sergykid wrote: »

Mik195 wrote: »

I just worry that they are so concerned about pay to win accusations that the intent is for warden and necromancer to always be bottom.

very unlikely that they're concerned by p2w accusations.
but warden and necro aren't even p2w, u can get them as gifts with ingame gold.

p2w is "stronger, and access only with real money" which arcanist will be if obtainable only with chapter purchase.

what is certain is that sets tied to trial or chapter zone like mythics will be p2w if stronger, like oakensoul is/was p2w with high isle

Also worth noting the Morrowind Chapter and Warden class have been included with the base game purchase for... at least a year now?

ESO_Nightingale

Darkstorne wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Mik195 wrote: »

I just worry that they are so concerned about pay to win accusations that the intent is for warden and necromancer to always be bottom.

very unlikely that they're concerned by p2w accusations.
but warden and necro aren't even p2w, u can get them as gifts with ingame gold.

p2w is "stronger, and access only with real money" which arcanist will be if obtainable only with chapter purchase.

what is certain is that sets tied to trial or chapter zone like mythics will be p2w if stronger, like oakensoul is/was p2w with high isle

Also worth noting the Morrowind Chapter and Warden class have been included with the base game purchase for... at least a year now?

I think it's been more than 2 years since then.

ESO_Nightingale

Sergykid wrote: »

Mik195 wrote: »

I just worry that they are so concerned about pay to win accusations that the intent is for warden and necromancer to always be bottom.

very unlikely that they're concerned by p2w accusations.
but warden and necro aren't even p2w, u can get them as gifts with ingame gold.

p2w is "stronger, and access only with real money" which arcanist will be if obtainable only with chapter purchase.

what is certain is that sets tied to trial or chapter zone like mythics will be p2w if stronger, like oakensoul is/was p2w with high isle

the issue is that because warden, necro and arcanist cost money, they're forever going to be brought down by people that use that as an excuse to say that a class they hate shouldn't be buffed.

ESO_Nightingale

Welp, it's lookin like a 2h meta. I think Zos has been extremely busy with arcanist's development, so they haven't spent much time on other classes post the initial pts patch release this time. Hopefully next time we can get some more changes

Darkstorne

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Welp, it's lookin like a 2h meta. I think Zos has been extremely busy with arcanist's development, so they haven't spent much time on other classes post the initial pts patch release this time. Hopefully next time we can get some more changes

I imagine they'll still be focused on Arcanist during the next PTS round too. So likely at least 6 months to go before we get a decent pass at class rebalancing and skill tweaks sadly, but I don't dare point that out in the main class feedback thread