Sorcrers but again?

MurkyWetWolf198

Ok, so, if shields were changed to scale with WD/SD like heals, would that fix the issues you all face?
If not, would changing them to scale with WD/SD and adding a HoT effect that applies with the shield fix it?

Just spitballing ideas based on what I read from a previous post, give me feedback pls

Ecgberht_confused

I can't speak for everyone but IMO that could be too OP for some builds, while at the same time still pigeonholing the class into all shields and no heals playstyle. Heals crit, are uncapped, are reactive rather pre-emptive. So there are many reasons why some of us would prefer them over shields. The W/S scaling is certainly a main reason but not the only one.

For me, I'd be happy if one shield morph is completely transformed into a burst heal. A proper one that's not cast time or flat amount, like every other class. This along with smart reworking of the class passives (for example to give crit power that synergies with surge), and maybe reduce cast time on frags so that we can use it as true spammable and save a slot usually given to force pulse, even if this means frag's damage would need to be adjusted so it's not OP

ForumBully

There are lots of good ideas for sorcs, in this cycle alone. And most don't boil down to just changing shields.
On this one point though, I don't mind that magsorcs are a standalone max stats class, as long as max stats doesn't lag so far behind in damage.
Others suggestions have been changes to damage types in the Sorc toolkit and changes to passives that would help sorcs improve damage output while still playing a resource pool play style.

acastanza_ESO

From my perspective, there are three main issues with Sorcerer
1) Lack of access to buffs and debuffs
2) Dependence on pets
3) Requirement for mathematically inferior max-stat stacking to access in-class defenses.

There are people here that will argue changing shields to scale off anything other than max stats is "too strong" but the fact of the matter is that every other class's defense already scales this way. I think it would go a long way to bringing shields up to par.

I would lean towards changing empowered ward to one that has a HOT instead of resource recovery. Again people might argue this is too strong, but, this already exists in the game, there is a HOT on the resto staff skill tree shield. It is just problematic because you can't guarantee who this shield will be applied to, which makes it useless.

While I would like to see 1, and 2 addressed as well, if Sorc had any other access to a heal (that isn't a channel, like a HOT morph of one of the shields) I think it would feel less like being forced to run the bird all the time and it would become less of a pain-point.
Buff and Debuff access, and toolkit synergy does need to be addressed though.

AdamLAD

There's many ways zenimax can buff sorcerer. Very curious as how they genuinely feel about the state of it currently. I'd absolutely love to sit down and talk to the team as to what their philosophy or ideas are on the subject.

MurkyWetWolf198

Ok, how do people feel about changing pets to be 1-bar only to keep them active, and reworking some of the more weaker skills (not too familiar with Sorc, someone suggest what these should be) to include more buffs (also, what buffs do they not have access to but should?)

Tannus15

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Ok, how do people feel about changing pets to be 1-bar only to keep them active, and reworking some of the more weaker skills (not too familiar with Sorc, someone suggest what these should be) to include more buffs (also, what buffs do they not have access to but should?)

this would be amazing.

the biggest problem with sorc is that too much of it's dps is reliant on pets. the rest of their kit HAS to under perform because the pets are too strong. i've tried doing a no pet build and the dps is terrible.

anyone who has been paying any attention to the "buff sorc" threads can very quickly put together the most common ideas

dps -
buff lightning splash
remove frags cast time
buff mages fury

utility -
add some sort of debuffs
add a burst heal

Tannus15

ForumBully wrote: »

There are lots of good ideas for sorcs, in this cycle alone. And most don't boil down to just changing shields.
On this one point though, I don't mind that magsorcs are a standalone max stats class, as long as max stats doesn't lag so far behind in damage.
Others suggestions have been changes to damage types in the Sorc toolkit and changes to passives that would help sorcs improve damage output while still playing a resource pool play style.

this is another thing that could make sorc stand out, make their class skills scale more by max resource than any other class. encourage us and reward us for leaning into max resource stacking.

bring back necropotence builds!

better yet make it a passive that we can have or not like Ancient Knowledge so if you want a "normal" build you don't put skill points into "magicka mastery" or whatever but if you do then the skill scaling changes to reward max mag.

or increase the weapon damage % passive so that it's the same or *gasp* more than the fighters guild passive. Lets us lean hard into spell / weapon damage builds, ditching crit and crit damage in favour of raw power.

This is one of the pain points in ESO right now. All the classes basically feel the same.

MetallicMonk

I think scaling shields off damage or a strong burst heal from a magsorc perspective would be too strong honestly, but I know many others seem to want it.

Aces-High-82

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Ok, how do people feel about changing pets to be 1-bar only to keep them active, and reworking some of the more weaker skills (not too familiar with Sorc, someone suggest what these should be) to include more buffs (also, what buffs do they not have access to but should?)

Doesn't solve its problem at all. One does not even need a full burst to delete the matriarchs 20k hp. And being a channel without applying its heal when summoned consumes additional gcds and resources.

Turtle_Bot

MetallicMonk wrote: »

I think scaling shields off damage or a strong burst heal from a magsorc perspective would be too strong honestly, but I know many others seem to want it.

It would only really be too strong if the class got access to both at once (like it used to have back in summerset where the pets weren't as easy to remove from the fight).

To get around this, make 1 morph of shields into a proper burst heal, leave the other as a strong shield, this way players get to choose which direction they wish to take their build, giving more options for sorcerer. Keep with the current shield + pet or shield + dark conversion set-up or run the new burst heal + vigor + crit surge for a more traditional style of defensive rotation.

To do this, I would remove the self burst heal from the clannfear (why this ability was given a self burst heal is still puzzling) and replace 1 of the morphs of shields with that burst heal, then give clannfear major prophecy/savagery while slotted and minor force for 10 seconds when activated while already summoned, this way its essentially a DoT that buffs crit modifiers similar to DK flames of oblivion, but its much more DoT focused instead of being a timed repeating delayed burst and it's not as important that it stays active the whole time, meaning you can choose to either single bar it and use it as a more traditional DoT that requires summoning and reactivating (2 casts + cast time on summon which is roughly 2.5-3 GCDs total) to get the bonus crit damage buff and not care if the pet despawns/is killed or you can choose to double bar it if you want the crit chance on both bars and to keep the pet up more often.

These changes would honestly fix the majority of the issues with the class without breaking it.
The shield cannot be stacked with a proper burst heal since they are different morphs of the same skill, but the burst heal is there as an option for shieldless magsorcs, hybridsorcs and stamsorcs alike and the new clannfear gives the class some much needed buffs to crit modifiers to make crit surge more reliable without forcing it onto both bars taking up extremely valuable bar slots, it also allows 1 of the pets to be usable in pvp as a DoT that provides a needed buff without forcing the pet to be active all the time or tying any class defense to it.
Of course if the bonus crit chance makes crit surge too strong the heal on crit surge could be toned down by 10%, but I doubt it will since expert hunter and magelight already provide that buff + have better passives but barely make it onto the bar as it is and it still requires dealing critical damage to get that heal which is also countered by that new snake in the stars set.

The only other thing I would like to see on top of the above changes is a consolidation of some of the overlapping passives (daedric protection and capacitor being the main ones). Those 2 passives should be combined into 1 passive and replace capacitor with a new passive that focuses on crit damage.
For example:
- Daedric protection would now grant +9/18% to all 3 recoveries if a daedric summoning ability is slotted instead of +20% to only health and stamina (NB gets 15% for free just for existing so an additional 3% for slotting an ability from a specific skill line seems fair, although I can see it being kept at 15% since the burst heal/shield are from that same skill line and would be slotted on every build anyway).
- Capacitor reworked to "dealing damage with a storm calling ability increases crit damage done by 8/15% for 4/8seconds" (NB gets 5/10% at all times for just slotting an ability so 8/15% on a duration for actually having to deal damage with an ability from a specific skill line seems about right).

Ecgberht_confused

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

I think scaling shields off damage or a strong burst heal from a magsorc perspective would be too strong honestly, but I know many others seem to want it.

It would only really be too strong if the class got access to both at once (like it used to have back in summerset where the pets weren't as easy to remove from the fight).

To get around this, make 1 morph of shields into a proper burst heal, leave the other as a strong shield, this way players get to choose which direction they wish to take their build, giving more options for sorcerer. Keep with the current shield + pet or shield + dark conversion set-up or run the new burst heal + vigor + crit surge for a more traditional style of defensive rotation.

To do this, I would remove the self burst heal from the clannfear (why this ability was given a self burst heal is still puzzling) and replace 1 of the morphs of shields with that burst heal, then give clannfear major prophecy/savagery while slotted and minor force for 10 seconds when activated while already summoned, this way its essentially a DoT that buffs crit modifiers similar to DK flames of oblivion, but its much more DoT focused instead of being a timed repeating delayed burst and it's not as important that it stays active the whole time, meaning you can choose to either single bar it and use it as a more traditional DoT that requires summoning and reactivating (2 casts + cast time on summon which is roughly 2.5-3 GCDs total) to get the bonus crit damage buff and not care if the pet despawns/is killed or you can choose to double bar it if you want the crit chance on both bars and to keep the pet up more often.

These changes would honestly fix the majority of the issues with the class without breaking it.
The shield cannot be stacked with a proper burst heal since they are different morphs of the same skill, but the burst heal is there as an option for shieldless magsorcs, hybridsorcs and stamsorcs alike and the new clannfear gives the class some much needed buffs to crit modifiers to make crit surge more reliable without forcing it onto both bars taking up extremely valuable bar slots, it also allows 1 of the pets to be usable in pvp as a DoT that provides a needed buff without forcing the pet to be active all the time or tying any class defense to it.
Of course if the bonus crit chance makes crit surge too strong the heal on crit surge could be toned down by 10%, but I doubt it will since expert hunter and magelight already provide that buff + have better passives but barely make it onto the bar as it is and it still requires dealing critical damage to get that heal which is also countered by that new snake in the stars set.

The only other thing I would like to see on top of the above changes is a consolidation of some of the overlapping passives (daedric protection and capacitor being the main ones). Those 2 passives should be combined into 1 passive and replace capacitor with a new passive that focuses on crit damage.
For example:
- Daedric protection would now grant +9/18% to all 3 recoveries if a daedric summoning ability is slotted instead of +20% to only health and stamina (NB gets 15% for free just for existing so an additional 3% for slotting an ability from a specific skill line seems fair, although I can see it being kept at 15% since the burst heal/shield are from that same skill line and would be slotted on every build anyway).
- Capacitor reworked to "dealing damage with a storm calling ability increases crit damage done by 8/15% for 4/8seconds" (NB gets 5/10% at all times for just slotting an ability so 8/15% on a duration for actually having to deal damage with an ability from a specific skill line seems about right).

These are really awesome suggestions! Giving sorcs the freedom to choose defensive strategies without pigeonholing us into just one playstyle. The class would not be OP and petsorcs would still keep an advantage since the matriarch does damage on top of the burst heals. All very reasonable 👍

KilianDermoth

@Turtle_Bot You want to change the clanfear and thus kill the (health scaling) self heal for PVE Sorc Tanks (what is one of the things that make Sorc Tank so outstanding)? Absolute bad idea...

Also changeing the clanfear this way, would force the Sorcs even more to play pets, also a bad idea.

So I think the proposed changes to the clanfear are really bad.

jaws343

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Ok, how do people feel about changing pets to be 1-bar only to keep them active, and reworking some of the more weaker skills (not too familiar with Sorc, someone suggest what these should be) to include more buffs (also, what buffs do they not have access to but should?)

I actually think making pets 1 bar would provide some aid. But it would require a few changes to how they function.

I'd make them last 30 seconds on cast. And I would have that 30 seconds refresh whenever you use their active ability. So, if you have scamp out, it will do it's normal damage for 30 seconds and then despawn, forcing a recast. But, if you have scamp out, and you are using the active ability, that 30 seconds refreshes every time. It would allow a player using the pet to keep it active through combat, while giving it a timer to remove the need to double bar it.

But, I think to do this effectively, healing morphs of pets would need to be un-targettable, and deal no damage. That way, you can cast it, it stays out. Maybe it has a minor buff associated with it staying active. And it gives you an on-demand heal. You won't have to worry about it being killed, and you still have to use the active ability every 30 seconds (maybe 60 for the healing morphs would be more appropriate).

And then for the damage morphs, those would remain killable. I'd think the only change would be the despawn if not being use actively.

ForumBully

Pets should have always been timed and one slot. Bar space is such a valuable thing.

katorga

ForumBully wrote: »

Pets should have always been timed and one slot. Bar space is such a valuable thing.

As originally designed Sorc's had a 3rd bar because of the pets. That got nerfed, not sure why, with no thought given to the collateral damage it did to the class design.

As it stands now, with two skills taking 4 slots, they should so double the damage or have compensating secondary effects for the investment, should be completely redesigned, or the 3rd bar returned.

Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth is Assassins Will had to be double barred to maintain stacks while bar swapping, or Blastbones went "poof" when barswapping.

LukosCreyden

Bring back no pet sorcerer.

Melzo

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Heal modifiers increase healing, defense modifiers increase mana shield. In addition to having 50 thousand mana, you can increase your defense in other ways.

Many complain that sorcerers do not have direct healing. I personally don't care, but direct healing won't give you survivability. If you want to play through healing then you will have to take defense sets like mara to absorb damage otherwise even with good healing you will be cut like soft jelly. Mana shields are exactly what a sorcerer needs. They also will not be made so that they would be strengthened by spell damage, so this will give much more problems for pvp. You, being a mana sorcerer, will get more damage and defense, but sorcerers in melee combat will have this shield 20 percent stronger, so they will have more spell damage. Also, the mana shield is scaled from mana to save at least some semblance of the sorcerer's mana and limit their damage. Crystal hits 6000 in pvp and curse 5000. By switching to the power of spells, you will become more painful to beat, which will affect the balance. Even the DK whip hits 6,000. And the sorcerer has literally 3 skills that will hit 6-7 thousand each, which is 20 percent more than the current numbers.

Most crying players don't even know how much a mana shield protects. They don’t even know how battle spirit works on a mana shield and how to strengthen it ...


The whole problem of sorcerers is not in their skills, but in the high survival rate of players. It is trivial to reduce battle spirit from 50% to 44% and the sorcerer will become one of the strongest classes in the game. And probably the strongest.

jaws343

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Shields don't allow block mitigation. Shields also don't make up for execute damage. Shields also require resources to keep up, they can be remove early and have zero way of regenerating without straight up recasting them.

Say I am a sorc with 30K health and a 10K shield. That doesn't mean I have 40K health. It just doesn't. When that sheild takes 5K damage, that shield will never be a 10K shield again until I fully recast it. When I block, that shield takes the full damage from the incoming hit. When I am in execute range, the value of that 10K shield is not taken into account. The shield doesn't cover up being in execute, you still take the full execute scaling damage, even if you are covering your health with a shield. Sure, the shield may absorb some of that, but it isn't adding to your health to pull you out of execute range.

Now, compare that to a player with 40K health. They can have HOTs active, that are constantly restoring their missing health values. On top of that they can have burst heals that restore the values. They also benefit from major and minor buffs that increase the ammount of health that can be restored. They also benefit from being able to utilize block mitigation for the entirety of their 40K health pool. When they are put into execute damage, casting a burst heal takes them out of execute range, rather than just putting a shield over them that doesn't effect the execute scaling at all.

The point is, Shields are not health. And this idea that they are is just a complete failure to understand how shields work and only works to add to the misinformation being spread by players that really have no clue how sorcs actually function.

Melzo

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Shields don't allow block mitigation. Shields also don't make up for execute damage. Shields also require resources to keep up, they can be remove early and have zero way of regenerating without straight up recasting them.

Say I am a sorc with 30K health and a 10K shield. That doesn't mean I have 40K health. It just doesn't. When that sheild takes 5K damage, that shield will never be a 10K shield again until I fully recast it. When I block, that shield takes the full damage from the incoming hit. When I am in execute range, the value of that 10K shield is not taken into account. The shield doesn't cover up being in execute, you still take the full execute scaling damage, even if you are covering your health with a shield. Sure, the shield may absorb some of that, but it isn't adding to your health to pull you out of execute range.

Now, compare that to a player with 40K health. They can have HOTs active, that are constantly restoring their missing health values. On top of that they can have burst heals that restore the values. They also benefit from major and minor buffs that increase the ammount of health that can be restored. They also benefit from being able to utilize block mitigation for the entirety of their 40K health pool. When they are put into execute damage, casting a burst heal takes them out of execute range, rather than just putting a shield over them that doesn't effect the execute scaling at all.

The point is, Shields are not health. And this idea that they are is just a complete failure to understand how shields work and only works to add to the misinformation being spread by players that really have no clue how sorcs actually function.

Most players have 30k health. The sorcerer can also run around with the same amount of health and have 44 thousand mana. As for the 40k health you are talking about, those players are sacrificing damage and self-healing in favor of health. I just do not understand why you should be afraid of those who sacrifice damage and destruction in favor of a pointless waste of points.

It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish. The shield can act as a heal if you are below 100% health and restore life with other skills. I don't understand your logic either. Others have hot healing and the sorcerer does not?? You only need one shield. I'm playing a necromancer with two healing skills with a hot effect and a dk who only has one skill with a hot effect. The necromancer and dk have bonuses that allow you to restore health in a dying state. This is the only advantage these two classes have over the sorcerer. Yes, healing and shield are different things, but it is unnecessary to underestimate the benefit of a mana shield. When you have 30k health but you only have 10k health left, the shield adds up to 20k health temporarily, at which point you can restore health healing with a hot effect. Also at full health you add a shield on top of your health but any hot healing or any other healing at full health goes to waste.

The sorcerer has access to hot healing. Sorcerer rely too heavily on the shield. It needs to be used properly and not spammed. You won't find a single DK spamming with their direct heals like a sorcerer does with his shield. Four or five times and there is no mana for the dk ...


Previously, the sorcerer had very little health and too strong shields. Their gameplay was kill or die. Since without shields they quickly died. Now you have the same amount of health as everyone else, and you only need two hot effects to keep your health at an acceptable level and not die from two hits. The exception is NB, as there is no way to play them differently. But it’s enough to have a battle cry and the ability to dodge and you won’t get 25 thousand damage each.

jaws343

Melzo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Shields don't allow block mitigation. Shields also don't make up for execute damage. Shields also require resources to keep up, they can be remove early and have zero way of regenerating without straight up recasting them.

Say I am a sorc with 30K health and a 10K shield. That doesn't mean I have 40K health. It just doesn't. When that sheild takes 5K damage, that shield will never be a 10K shield again until I fully recast it. When I block, that shield takes the full damage from the incoming hit. When I am in execute range, the value of that 10K shield is not taken into account. The shield doesn't cover up being in execute, you still take the full execute scaling damage, even if you are covering your health with a shield. Sure, the shield may absorb some of that, but it isn't adding to your health to pull you out of execute range.

Now, compare that to a player with 40K health. They can have HOTs active, that are constantly restoring their missing health values. On top of that they can have burst heals that restore the values. They also benefit from major and minor buffs that increase the ammount of health that can be restored. They also benefit from being able to utilize block mitigation for the entirety of their 40K health pool. When they are put into execute damage, casting a burst heal takes them out of execute range, rather than just putting a shield over them that doesn't effect the execute scaling at all.

The point is, Shields are not health. And this idea that they are is just a complete failure to understand how shields work and only works to add to the misinformation being spread by players that really have no clue how sorcs actually function.

Most players have 30k health. The sorcerer can also run around with the same amount of health and have 44 thousand mana. As for the 40k health you are talking about, those players are sacrificing damage and self-healing in favor of health. I just do not understand why you should be afraid of those who sacrifice damage and destruction in favor of a pointless waste of points.

It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish. The shield can act as a heal if you are below 100% health and restore life with other skills. I don't understand your logic either. Others have hot healing and the sorcerer does not?? You only need one shield. I'm playing a necromancer with two healing skills with a hot effect and a dk who only has one skill with a hot effect. The necromancer and dk have bonuses that allow you to restore health in a dying state. This is the only advantage these two classes have over the sorcerer. Yes, healing and shield are different things, but it is unnecessary to underestimate the benefit of a mana shield. When you have 30k health but you only have 10k health left, the shield adds up to 20k health temporarily, at which point you can restore health healing with a hot effect. Also at full health you add a shield on top of your health but any hot healing or any other healing at full health goes to waste.

The sorcerer has access to hot healing. Sorcerer rely too heavily on the shield. It needs to be used properly and not spammed. You won't find a single DK spamming with their direct heals like a sorcerer does with his shield. Four or five times and there is no mana for the dk ...

Magicka, please just say Magicka. Mana is not a thing in this game.

And no, a player running 40K health is not sacrificing damage or healing. They are stacking spell damage, which also increases their damage and their healing amounts.

And again, nothing you have described here leads me to believe that you understand how healing, health, or shields function in this game.

Shields DO NOT act as a heal with you are below 100%. That might be the most egregious claim you have here.

Melzo

I don't care what it's called. I write through Google and correct what I wrote. I've only been studying English for a month.

ForumBully

Melzo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Shields don't allow block mitigation. Shields also don't make up for execute damage. Shields also require resources to keep up, they can be remove early and have zero way of regenerating without straight up recasting them.

Say I am a sorc with 30K health and a 10K shield. That doesn't mean I have 40K health. It just doesn't. When that sheild takes 5K damage, that shield will never be a 10K shield again until I fully recast it. When I block, that shield takes the full damage from the incoming hit. When I am in execute range, the value of that 10K shield is not taken into account. The shield doesn't cover up being in execute, you still take the full execute scaling damage, even if you are covering your health with a shield. Sure, the shield may absorb some of that, but it isn't adding to your health to pull you out of execute range.

Now, compare that to a player with 40K health. They can have HOTs active, that are constantly restoring their missing health values. On top of that they can have burst heals that restore the values. They also benefit from major and minor buffs that increase the ammount of health that can be restored. They also benefit from being able to utilize block mitigation for the entirety of their 40K health pool. When they are put into execute damage, casting a burst heal takes them out of execute range, rather than just putting a shield over them that doesn't effect the execute scaling at all.

The point is, Shields are not health. And this idea that they are is just a complete failure to understand how shields work and only works to add to the misinformation being spread by players that really have no clue how sorcs actually function.

Most players have 30k health. The sorcerer can also run around with the same amount of health and have 44 thousand mana. As for the 40k health you are talking about, those players are sacrificing damage and self-healing in favor of health. I just do not understand why you should be afraid of those who sacrifice damage and destruction in favor of a pointless waste of points.

It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish. The shield can act as a heal if you are below 100% health and restore life with other skills. I don't understand your logic either. Others have hot healing and the sorcerer does not?? You only need one shield. I'm playing a necromancer with two healing skills with a hot effect and a dk who only has one skill with a hot effect. The necromancer and dk have bonuses that allow you to restore health in a dying state. This is the only advantage these two classes have over the sorcerer. Yes, healing and shield are different things, but it is unnecessary to underestimate the benefit of a mana shield. When you have 30k health but you only have 10k health left, the shield adds up to 20k health temporarily, at which point you can restore health healing with a hot effect. Also at full health you add a shield on top of your health but any hot healing or any other healing at full health goes to waste.

The sorcerer has access to hot healing. Sorcerer rely too heavily on the shield. It needs to be used properly and not spammed. You won't find a single DK spamming with their direct heals like a sorcerer does with his shield. Four or five times and there is no mana for the dk ...


Previously, the sorcerer had very little health and too strong shields. Their gameplay was kill or die. Since without shields they quickly died. Now you have the same amount of health as everyone else, and you only need two hot effects to keep your health at an acceptable level and not die from two hits. The exception is NB, as there is no way to play them differently. But it’s enough to have a battle cry and the ability to dodge and you won’t get 25 thousand damage each.

Having read the last two posts, I'm just getting the feeling you don't PvP at...well, any level, really. There is zero sacrifice to get 30k health if you build in the current damage meta for PvP. Nothing is lost. In fact, it's hard to get below 30k health even if you stacking nothing but weapon/spell damage.

I don't know the game you're describing.

Melzo

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Shields don't allow block mitigation. Shields also don't make up for execute damage. Shields also require resources to keep up, they can be remove early and have zero way of regenerating without straight up recasting them.

Say I am a sorc with 30K health and a 10K shield. That doesn't mean I have 40K health. It just doesn't. When that sheild takes 5K damage, that shield will never be a 10K shield again until I fully recast it. When I block, that shield takes the full damage from the incoming hit. When I am in execute range, the value of that 10K shield is not taken into account. The shield doesn't cover up being in execute, you still take the full execute scaling damage, even if you are covering your health with a shield. Sure, the shield may absorb some of that, but it isn't adding to your health to pull you out of execute range.

Now, compare that to a player with 40K health. They can have HOTs active, that are constantly restoring their missing health values. On top of that they can have burst heals that restore the values. They also benefit from major and minor buffs that increase the ammount of health that can be restored. They also benefit from being able to utilize block mitigation for the entirety of their 40K health pool. When they are put into execute damage, casting a burst heal takes them out of execute range, rather than just putting a shield over them that doesn't effect the execute scaling at all.

The point is, Shields are not health. And this idea that they are is just a complete failure to understand how shields work and only works to add to the misinformation being spread by players that really have no clue how sorcs actually function.

Most players have 30k health. The sorcerer can also run around with the same amount of health and have 44 thousand mana. As for the 40k health you are talking about, those players are sacrificing damage and self-healing in favor of health. I just do not understand why you should be afraid of those who sacrifice damage and destruction in favor of a pointless waste of points.

It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish. The shield can act as a heal if you are below 100% health and restore life with other skills. I don't understand your logic either. Others have hot healing and the sorcerer does not?? You only need one shield. I'm playing a necromancer with two healing skills with a hot effect and a dk who only has one skill with a hot effect. The necromancer and dk have bonuses that allow you to restore health in a dying state. This is the only advantage these two classes have over the sorcerer. Yes, healing and shield are different things, but it is unnecessary to underestimate the benefit of a mana shield. When you have 30k health but you only have 10k health left, the shield adds up to 20k health temporarily, at which point you can restore health healing with a hot effect. Also at full health you add a shield on top of your health but any hot healing or any other healing at full health goes to waste.

The sorcerer has access to hot healing. Sorcerer rely too heavily on the shield. It needs to be used properly and not spammed. You won't find a single DK spamming with their direct heals like a sorcerer does with his shield. Four or five times and there is no mana for the dk ...

Magicka, please just say Magicka. Mana is not a thing in this game.

And no, a player running 40K health is not sacrificing damage or healing. They are stacking spell damage, which also increases their damage and their healing amounts.

And again, nothing you have described here leads me to believe that you understand how healing, health, or shields function in this game.

Shields DO NOT act as a heal with you are below 100%. That might be the most egregious claim you have here.

I wrote an example gameplay. Not that healing and shield are the same thing. I even wrote that it's not the same. I said that the shield is a temporary solution for a place of direct healing. And it acts as a pseudo heal so that you have time to restore health with a hot effect.

AdamLAD

"It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish"

The fact your saying this speaks volumes at the state of Shields. How can you go from not wanting sorcerer to be buffed as wards are strong but then just say one of the primary defences they use is rubbish which is a shield? Do u genuinely have any idea what your even going on about

ForumBully

Melzo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Shields don't allow block mitigation. Shields also don't make up for execute damage. Shields also require resources to keep up, they can be remove early and have zero way of regenerating without straight up recasting them.

Say I am a sorc with 30K health and a 10K shield. That doesn't mean I have 40K health. It just doesn't. When that sheild takes 5K damage, that shield will never be a 10K shield again until I fully recast it. When I block, that shield takes the full damage from the incoming hit. When I am in execute range, the value of that 10K shield is not taken into account. The shield doesn't cover up being in execute, you still take the full execute scaling damage, even if you are covering your health with a shield. Sure, the shield may absorb some of that, but it isn't adding to your health to pull you out of execute range.

Now, compare that to a player with 40K health. They can have HOTs active, that are constantly restoring their missing health values. On top of that they can have burst heals that restore the values. They also benefit from major and minor buffs that increase the ammount of health that can be restored. They also benefit from being able to utilize block mitigation for the entirety of their 40K health pool. When they are put into execute damage, casting a burst heal takes them out of execute range, rather than just putting a shield over them that doesn't effect the execute scaling at all.

The point is, Shields are not health. And this idea that they are is just a complete failure to understand how shields work and only works to add to the misinformation being spread by players that really have no clue how sorcs actually function.

Most players have 30k health. The sorcerer can also run around with the same amount of health and have 44 thousand mana. As for the 40k health you are talking about, those players are sacrificing damage and self-healing in favor of health. I just do not understand why you should be afraid of those who sacrifice damage and destruction in favor of a pointless waste of points.

It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish. The shield can act as a heal if you are below 100% health and restore life with other skills. I don't understand your logic either. Others have hot healing and the sorcerer does not?? You only need one shield. I'm playing a necromancer with two healing skills with a hot effect and a dk who only has one skill with a hot effect. The necromancer and dk have bonuses that allow you to restore health in a dying state. This is the only advantage these two classes have over the sorcerer. Yes, healing and shield are different things, but it is unnecessary to underestimate the benefit of a mana shield. When you have 30k health but you only have 10k health left, the shield adds up to 20k health temporarily, at which point you can restore health healing with a hot effect. Also at full health you add a shield on top of your health but any hot healing or any other healing at full health goes to waste.

The sorcerer has access to hot healing. Sorcerer rely too heavily on the shield. It needs to be used properly and not spammed. You won't find a single DK spamming with their direct heals like a sorcerer does with his shield. Four or five times and there is no mana for the dk ...

Magicka, please just say Magicka. Mana is not a thing in this game.

And no, a player running 40K health is not sacrificing damage or healing. They are stacking spell damage, which also increases their damage and their healing amounts.

And again, nothing you have described here leads me to believe that you understand how healing, health, or shields function in this game.

Shields DO NOT act as a heal with you are below 100%. That might be the most egregious claim you have here.

I wrote an example gameplay. Not that healing and shield are the same thing. I even wrote that it's not the same. I said that the shield is a temporary solution for a place of direct healing. And it acts as a pseudo heal so that you have time to restore health with a hot effect.

So, on this point, yes, you have the potential to HoT heal under a shield, but you can't do it well with low spell power. So as you're waiting for the heal to tick your shield is still being chopped down by whatever incoming damage you're facing, and it's being chopped down quicker than you can get a substantial heal from HoTs.
Part of the problem is you must stack Magicka and sustain to have an effective shield size AND sustain the constant reapplication, and this leaves no room to invest in spell power, which would make your HoT more potent.

Melzo

AdamLAD wrote: »

"It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish"

The fact your saying this speaks volumes at the state of Shields. How can you go from not wanting sorcerer to be buffed as wards are strong but then just say one of the primary defences they use is rubbish which is a shield? Do u genuinely have any idea what your even going on about

The sorcerer's mana shield is strong, but the light armor's mana shield is weak. The meta has changed and now the sorcerer will not die from spitting without shields. You just need to have one or two hot effects on yourself and call the sorcerer's mana shield in the right circumstances. You keep your defense on hot effects like all players and use a shield to give these hot effects time to take effect.

Melzo

ForumBully wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Shields don't allow block mitigation. Shields also don't make up for execute damage. Shields also require resources to keep up, they can be remove early and have zero way of regenerating without straight up recasting them.

Say I am a sorc with 30K health and a 10K shield. That doesn't mean I have 40K health. It just doesn't. When that sheild takes 5K damage, that shield will never be a 10K shield again until I fully recast it. When I block, that shield takes the full damage from the incoming hit. When I am in execute range, the value of that 10K shield is not taken into account. The shield doesn't cover up being in execute, you still take the full execute scaling damage, even if you are covering your health with a shield. Sure, the shield may absorb some of that, but it isn't adding to your health to pull you out of execute range.

Now, compare that to a player with 40K health. They can have HOTs active, that are constantly restoring their missing health values. On top of that they can have burst heals that restore the values. They also benefit from major and minor buffs that increase the ammount of health that can be restored. They also benefit from being able to utilize block mitigation for the entirety of their 40K health pool. When they are put into execute damage, casting a burst heal takes them out of execute range, rather than just putting a shield over them that doesn't effect the execute scaling at all.

The point is, Shields are not health. And this idea that they are is just a complete failure to understand how shields work and only works to add to the misinformation being spread by players that really have no clue how sorcs actually function.

Most players have 30k health. The sorcerer can also run around with the same amount of health and have 44 thousand mana. As for the 40k health you are talking about, those players are sacrificing damage and self-healing in favor of health. I just do not understand why you should be afraid of those who sacrifice damage and destruction in favor of a pointless waste of points.

It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish. The shield can act as a heal if you are below 100% health and restore life with other skills. I don't understand your logic either. Others have hot healing and the sorcerer does not?? You only need one shield. I'm playing a necromancer with two healing skills with a hot effect and a dk who only has one skill with a hot effect. The necromancer and dk have bonuses that allow you to restore health in a dying state. This is the only advantage these two classes have over the sorcerer. Yes, healing and shield are different things, but it is unnecessary to underestimate the benefit of a mana shield. When you have 30k health but you only have 10k health left, the shield adds up to 20k health temporarily, at which point you can restore health healing with a hot effect. Also at full health you add a shield on top of your health but any hot healing or any other healing at full health goes to waste.

The sorcerer has access to hot healing. Sorcerer rely too heavily on the shield. It needs to be used properly and not spammed. You won't find a single DK spamming with their direct heals like a sorcerer does with his shield. Four or five times and there is no mana for the dk ...

Magicka, please just say Magicka. Mana is not a thing in this game.

And no, a player running 40K health is not sacrificing damage or healing. They are stacking spell damage, which also increases their damage and their healing amounts.

And again, nothing you have described here leads me to believe that you understand how healing, health, or shields function in this game.

Shields DO NOT act as a heal with you are below 100%. That might be the most egregious claim you have here.

I wrote an example gameplay. Not that healing and shield are the same thing. I even wrote that it's not the same. I said that the shield is a temporary solution for a place of direct healing. And it acts as a pseudo heal so that you have time to restore health with a hot effect.

So, on this point, yes, you have the potential to HoT heal under a shield, but you can't do it well with low spell power. So as you're waiting for the heal to tick your shield is still being chopped down by whatever incoming damage you're facing, and it's being chopped down quicker than you can get a substantial heal from HoTs.
Part of the problem is you must stack Magicka and sustain to have an effective shield size AND sustain the constant reapplication, and this leaves no room to invest in spell power, which would make your HoT more potent.

Weak argument. Players with 50k mana have a low amount of spell damage. Due to the fact that they draw rings for mana regen. I wrote on the example of 30 thousand health and 44 mana.

The first option is through a large amount of mana. Such sorcerers have 50 mana and 3500-4000 spell damage. If translated into spell damage, then the sorcerer has 5500-6000 spell damage and 30 mana. If you equate 1000 mana to 100 spell damage.

The second option is a more balanced setup, but this does not negate the fact that the mana sorcerer has good damage. And since the damage is good, why does the healing have to be bad??

AdamLAD

Melzo wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

"It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish"

The fact your saying this speaks volumes at the state of Shields. How can you go from not wanting sorcerer to be buffed as wards are strong but then just say one of the primary defences they use is rubbish which is a shield? Do u genuinely have any idea what your even going on about

The sorcerer's mana shield is strong, but the light armor's mana shield is weak. The meta has changed and now the sorcerer will not die from spitting without shields. You just need to have one or two hot effects on yourself and call the sorcerer's mana shield in the right circumstances. You keep your defense on hot effects like all players and use a shield to give these hot effects time to take effect.

Where exactly are we getting these 2 extra hots from on our bar space. So ur suggesting 1 sheild and 2 hots. Other classes need 1 hot and a burst heal. Why do we need 3 forms of defence and they need 2 ?

Aces-High-82

Melzo wrote: »

Shields have fewer modifiers but count as extra health. Shields are buffed to defense and critical damage resistance. For example, you can make about 44 mana and get a shield for 11-12 thousand. The pirate hat gives 10 percent defense and the sorcerer's skill gives 5 percent defense. You can also take the battle cry to the back panel. In fact, all defense bonuses such as armor, critical damage resistance and defense buffs give a direct boost to your shield, since the shield is your additional health.

Heal modifiers increase healing, defense modifiers increase mana shield. In addition to having 50 thousand mana, you can increase your defense in other ways.

Many complain that sorcerers do not have direct healing. I personally don't care, but direct healing won't give you survivability. If you want to play through healing then you will have to take defense sets like mara to absorb damage otherwise even with good healing you will be cut like soft jelly. Mana shields are exactly what a sorcerer needs. They also will not be made so that they would be strengthened by spell damage, so this will give much more problems for pvp. You, being a mana sorcerer, will get more damage and defense, but sorcerers in melee combat will have this shield 20 percent stronger, so they will have more spell damage. Also, the mana shield is scaled from mana to save at least some semblance of the sorcerer's mana and limit their damage. Crystal hits 6000 in pvp and curse 5000. By switching to the power of spells, you will become more painful to beat, which will affect the balance. Even the DK whip hits 6,000. And the sorcerer has literally 3 skills that will hit 6-7 thousand each, which is 20 percent more than the current numbers.

Most crying players don't even know how much a mana shield protects. They don’t even know how battle spirit works on a mana shield and how to strengthen it ...


The whole problem of sorcerers is not in their skills, but in the high survival rate of players. It is trivial to reduce battle spirit from 50% to 44% and the sorcerer will become one of the strongest classes in the game. And probably the strongest.

lol dude, once again you proved one thing - you have zero idea how to build properly or even get scaling right.

Melzo

AdamLAD wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

"It's stupid for me to take two mana shields for protection, so a mana shield from a branch of light armor is rubbish"

The fact your saying this speaks volumes at the state of Shields. How can you go from not wanting sorcerer to be buffed as wards are strong but then just say one of the primary defences they use is rubbish which is a shield? Do u genuinely have any idea what your even going on about

The sorcerer's mana shield is strong, but the light armor's mana shield is weak. The meta has changed and now the sorcerer will not die from spitting without shields. You just need to have one or two hot effects on yourself and call the sorcerer's mana shield in the right circumstances. You keep your defense on hot effects like all players and use a shield to give these hot effects time to take effect.

Where exactly are we getting these 2 extra hots from on our bar space. So ur suggesting 1 sheild and 2 hots. Other classes need 1 hot and a burst heal. Why do we need 3 forms of defence and they need 2 ?

I have my necromancer mortal coil and ghost as well as direct healing. On DK I have a direct heal and one hot heal but I also have a shield to give a 16% healing bonus and a weapon damage buff. Most players have three defensive skills. I have played with all classes and this is the base setting for all classes. You can ask any player and everyone will answer that they use three skills for defense. There are exceptions. For example some use two or 4 but three skills is the base setting.