Critical Resistance in PvE

The_Titan_Tim

Currently, Critical Resistance is considered a useless value in PvE.

One solution to this that I would like to propose would be that heavy attacks made by enemy monsters be considered “critical strikes.”

This would not change any damage that these heavy attacks do at base, while enabling players to finally get some use out of building into Critical Resistance in PvE, even if only slightly.

I’m interested to hear some opinions on this idea, whether it would be a sound change, or could use some improvements!

notyuu

my question is why does crit resist need a use in PvE to begin with? it's fine as a PvP only stat

The_Titan_Tim

notyuu wrote: »

my question is why does crit resist need a use in PvE to begin with? it's fine as a PvP only stat

Then Impenetrable should stop being a trait dropped on PvE gear.

notyuu

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

my question is why does crit resist need a use in PvE to begin with? it's fine as a PvP only stat

Then Impenetrable should stop being a trait dropped on PvE gear.

first, you can use any set in PvP, sure not all of them are meta, but you can use them none the less

secondly, if you want traits to "fix" there there is Inufsed on stamina weapons, which currently does literally nothing, Nirnhoned on armour which is just a worse version of reinforced most of the time, invigorating on armour which is trash and Argubly Harmony on jewls due to being way too niche which could use with a touchup to provide any sort of function of them

The_Titan_Tim

All traits should be useful in all content, I don’t want to have instant-deconstruct gear.

I agree with your stance on Nirnhoned and Invigorating, but they actually provide at least some value in each form of content, an Infused weapon will proc’s its enchantment more often.

I’m pretty sure you meant “Charged” as why would you want to keep applying the Sundered status effect.

Harmony has never been a favorite of mine as it provides every excuse the masses need to write off Necromancer as being in a good place.

Also, covered Invigorating in a different discussion, the post is linked if you want to jump in on that conversation with what you believe would correct it, feel free.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/625389/any-use-for-invigorating#latest

Edit: Sorry it’s early over here, I completely read over the comment about running any set in PvP, yes you can run any set that you want in PvP, but recently we’ve been getting gear that doesn’t work in PvE, a direction I believe to be backwards.

Dr_Con

if you don't want your gear to have pvp traits, then i don't want my plaguebreak and vicious death to have training on it.

(btw impenetrable also reduces the amount of damage your armor takes, i have run into people who run certain sets with impen for pvp and pve-arenas)

The_Titan_Tim

Dr_Con wrote: »

if you don't want your gear to have pvp traits, then i don't want my plaguebreak and vicious death to have training on it.

(btw impenetrable also reduces the amount of damage your armor takes, i have run into people who run certain sets with impen for pvp and pve-arenas)

Only do I want Impenetrable out of the PvE loot table if ZOS insist on dividing PvE and PvP further, and that is only if the trait remains useless in PvE. Nobody with a head on their shoulders would be intentionally running Impenetrable for anything PvE related.

My proposition would give it purpose in PvE, without negatively impacting anything.

Critical Resistance was the first active division in the playerbase of PvE and PvP years ago as a bandaid fix, then Battle Spirit, then Slayer and Aegis… now we’re at Empower being completely useless in PvP and new sets like Rallying Cry that only apply with Battle Spirit.

Our community is too divided due to all of these bandaid fixes that continue to divide the community further and further where Critical Resistance was the initial wedge.

Freelancer_ESO

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Currently, Critical Resistance is considered a useless value in PvE.

One solution to this that I would like to propose would be that heavy attacks made by enemy monsters be considered “critical strikes.”

This would not change any damage that these heavy attacks do at base, while enabling players to finally get some use out of building into Critical Resistance in PvE, even if only slightly.

I’m interested to hear some opinions on this idea, whether it would be a sound change, or could use some improvements!

If it actually works at stopping Heavy Attacks from being lethal/significantly damaging, it could edge out some of the other traits such as Reinforced or Nirnhoned.

If it doesn't actually dent them much, it doesn't seem like it would really change Impenetrable's situation of not being terribly useful for most PvE Combat unless repairing is a major concern.

The_Titan_Tim

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Currently, Critical Resistance is considered a useless value in PvE.

One solution to this that I would like to propose would be that heavy attacks made by enemy monsters be considered “critical strikes.”

This would not change any damage that these heavy attacks do at base, while enabling players to finally get some use out of building into Critical Resistance in PvE, even if only slightly.

I’m interested to hear some opinions on this idea, whether it would be a sound change, or could use some improvements!

If it actually works at stopping Heavy Attacks from being lethal/significantly damaging, it could edge out some of the other traits such as Reinforced or Nirnhoned.

If it doesn't actually dent them much, it doesn't seem like it would really change Impenetrable's situation of not being terribly useful for most PvE Combat unless repairing is a major concern.

This idea would turn the trait into a desirable option for tanks in extremely hard content, like veteran Asylum Sanctorum where Saint Olms is repeatedly battering the tank with heavies, while providing a safety net for newer tanks that might bar swap at the wrong times in content.

Heelie

Impen already has a pve function in it breaking slower so that you don't have to repair as often, this can be quite nice if a player is just questing saving a few thousand gold on repairs every week.

The_Titan_Tim

Heelie wrote: »

Impen already has a pve function in it breaking slower so that you don't have to repair as often, this can be quite nice if a player is just questing saving a few thousand gold on repairs every week.

I’m of the opinion that Training better serves the purpose of questing by miles, night and day difference.

Players should do mental gymnastics about what trait they want their gear to be in, to fully optimize their build, not have clear-cut winners.

axi

Impen actually have its PvE usage. Items with that trait take 50% less durability damage meaning less armor repairing. And it's PvE only usage since armor is not getting damaged in PvP.

The_Titan_Tim

axi wrote: »

Impen actually have its PvE usage. Items with that trait take 50% less durability damage meaning less armor repairing. And it's PvE only usage since armor is not getting damaged in PvP.

In what content does that become the choice for a player for gear? If you’re questing, Training yields better XP results, if you’re farming materials, you would go divines with the Steed mundus stone, if you’re in PvE, you use Divines on Damage Dealers and Healers, Reinforced and Sturdy on Tanks.

Convince me of one scenario where Impenetrable’s durability improvement saves more money than you make while taking advantage of the Steed in all Divines.

At that point, you would be making more money with the old Prosperous trait.

Freelancer_ESO

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Impen already has a pve function in it breaking slower so that you don't have to repair as often, this can be quite nice if a player is just questing saving a few thousand gold on repairs every week.

I’m of the opinion that Training better serves the purpose of questing by miles, night and day difference.

Players should do mental gymnastics about what trait they want their gear to be in, to fully optimize their build, not have clear-cut winners.

Players should be choosing a trait based on what they want their character to do not based on a spreadsheet.

If I want my trait to make my character more durable, I should have a clear choice not a break out your calculator to see if Nirnhoned or Reinforced is better then break out your calculator again to compare the result of the winner between those two vs Critical Resistance.

The_Titan_Tim

Durability is a flavor addition to Impenetrable, not a trait someone would slot on their gear intentionally.

If we woke up tomorrow and Critical Resistance was removed from Impenetrable, there would be an upheaval, whereas the Durability improvement being removed would create minor controversy at best.

Diminish

Dr_Con wrote: »

if you don't want your gear to have pvp traits, then i don't want my plaguebreak and vicious death to have training on it.

I do

emilyhyoyeon

Whether or not impen needs to have more PVE function, I think a trait reducing heavy attack damage is a pretty cool idea

axi

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Impen actually have its PvE usage. Items with that trait take 50% less durability damage meaning less armor repairing. And it's PvE only usage since armor is not getting damaged in PvP.

In what content does that become the choice for a player for gear? If you’re questing, Training yields better XP results, if you’re farming materials, you would go divines with the Steed mundus stone, if you’re in PvE, you use Divines on Damage Dealers and Healers, Reinforced and Sturdy on Tanks.

Convince me of one scenario where Impenetrable’s durability improvement saves more money than you make while taking advantage of the Steed in all Divines.

At that point, you would be making more money with the old Prosperous trait.

Actually You were not making more money with prosperous trait. Additional gold gained from prosperous was smaller than gold You were saving through less repairs. Multiple people did the math for it and they had the same results.

If You really want to go deep into what traits are really usefull than convince me to one scenario where i would like to use reinforced on light armor pieces, or sturdy on DD set or invigorating in general etc. In all honesty every set have like 3-5 traits that can be considered usefull and the rest is just going to be deconstructed which is also fine because You need to get materials from sowmehere and bad traits are perfect opportunity for that.

Impen is trait mainly for PvP. It does its main job there and it also have some small usage in PvE. Sounds fair and reasonable, no need to change that.

Diminish

Heelie wrote: »

Impen already has a pve function in it breaking slower so that you don't have to repair as often, this can be quite nice if a player is just questing saving a few thousand gold on repairs every week.

In theory that sounds plausible. However, even when questing you run into trash mobs. Trash mobs that drop plenty of ornate gear. Selling ornate gear to vendors alone typically make up for the cost of repairing your armor + some. If you are using impen for PvE, you are definitely doing something wrong. I get where the OP is going with this, impen really has no place in PvE. In my opinion, ZOS needs to either fully commit to separating PvE/PvP, or fully commit to making the two mesh together more seamlessly. What we have right now seems like they have no real direction.

Diminish

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Players should be choosing a trait based on what they want their character to do not based on a spreadsheet.

If I want my trait to make my character more durable, I should have a clear choice not a break out your calculator to see if Nirnhoned or Reinforced is better then break out your calculator again to compare the result of the winner between those two vs Critical Resistance.

Unfortunately, that is not how the game works though. Go spec out a DD, healer, or tank in full impen and see how many people prefer to have you in their group. Now, you CAN choose your weapon/armor traits based on your preference (you know, play how you want and all that); that wont be an issue. However, it WILL be an issue for majority of your teammates that play this game for more than just an over world questing single player RPG. I think ZOS is trying to satisfy too many play styles to really excel at any and give ESO a true identity. They try to incorporate single player play styles, small and large group content, PvE, PvP, PvEvP, etc. Is this an RPG, or an MMO? Prehaps it is an RPG with MMO elements. Should content be tuned for single player, small groups, or large groups? Should it be balanced around PvE, PvP, or PvEvP? I give ZOS credit for doing fairly well with satisfying every play style up to this point, but to say it has not caused any divide in both the PvE and PvP communities alike would be asinine, and something they should have addressed a long time ago. With that said, unfortunately people will need to continue to get our their calculator, or live with the fact that they are playing at a sub-optimal level, and will likely continue to degrade the experience of those they group with.

The_Titan_Tim

Diminish wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Impen already has a pve function in it breaking slower so that you don't have to repair as often, this can be quite nice if a player is just questing saving a few thousand gold on repairs every week.

In theory that sounds plausible. However, even when questing you run into trash mobs. Trash mobs that drop plenty of ornate gear. Selling ornate gear to vendors alone typically make up for the cost of repairing your armor + some. If you are using impen for PvE, you are definitely doing something wrong. I get where the OP is going with this, impen really has no place in PvE. In my opinion, ZOS needs to either fully commit to separating PvE/PvP, or fully commit to making the two mesh together more seamlessly. What we have right now seems like they have no real direction.

Thanks, that’s more of less what I’m trying to convey. If there’s a better idea for implementing Critical Resistance into PvE, I’m all for it, I just don’t see a better option than monster heavy attack reduction as far as that stat is concerned.

I’m assuming the last thing we want is an add in a random dungeon to hit us with a critical light attack that swipes half our health bar randomly.

The_Titan_Tim

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Impen actually have its PvE usage. Items with that trait take 50% less durability damage meaning less armor repairing. And it's PvE only usage since armor is not getting damaged in PvP.

In what content does that become the choice for a player for gear? If you’re questing, Training yields better XP results, if you’re farming materials, you would go divines with the Steed mundus stone, if you’re in PvE, you use Divines on Damage Dealers and Healers, Reinforced and Sturdy on Tanks.

Convince me of one scenario where Impenetrable’s durability improvement saves more money than you make while taking advantage of the Steed in all Divines.

At that point, you would be making more money with the old Prosperous trait.

Actually You were not making more money with prosperous trait. Additional gold gained from prosperous was smaller than gold You were saving through less repairs. Multiple people did the math for it and they had the same results.

If You really want to go deep into what traits are really usefull than convince me to one scenario where i would like to use reinforced on light armor pieces, or sturdy on DD set or invigorating in general etc. In all honesty every set have like 3-5 traits that can be considered usefull and the rest is just going to be deconstructed which is also fine because You need to get materials from sowmehere and bad traits are perfect opportunity for that.

Impen is trait mainly for PvP. It does its main job there and it also have some small usage in PvE. Sounds fair and reasonable, no need to change that.

The point being made was that…

Impenetrable = Prosperous

The same argument made to get Prosperous changed, is the argument being made currently.

Divines is outclassing Impenetrable within PvE at every scenario, which was why I proposed monster heavy attack resistance as the PvE answer to critical resistance, this change would be the least invasive way to add quality to the gear in PvE without changing any value it has in PvP.

Edit: Also wanted to add, Prosperous was a % increase to gold gained from killing monsters, the amount of gold you acquire from killing monsters presently has gone up massively from when the trait existed, supporting the statement that the trait would “save” more money than Impenetrable’s current durability flavor.

axi

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Impen actually have its PvE usage. Items with that trait take 50% less durability damage meaning less armor repairing. And it's PvE only usage since armor is not getting damaged in PvP.

In what content does that become the choice for a player for gear? If you’re questing, Training yields better XP results, if you’re farming materials, you would go divines with the Steed mundus stone, if you’re in PvE, you use Divines on Damage Dealers and Healers, Reinforced and Sturdy on Tanks.

Convince me of one scenario where Impenetrable’s durability improvement saves more money than you make while taking advantage of the Steed in all Divines.

At that point, you would be making more money with the old Prosperous trait.

Actually You were not making more money with prosperous trait. Additional gold gained from prosperous was smaller than gold You were saving through less repairs. Multiple people did the math for it and they had the same results.

If You really want to go deep into what traits are really usefull than convince me to one scenario where i would like to use reinforced on light armor pieces, or sturdy on DD set or invigorating in general etc. In all honesty every set have like 3-5 traits that can be considered usefull and the rest is just going to be deconstructed which is also fine because You need to get materials from sowmehere and bad traits are perfect opportunity for that.

Impen is trait mainly for PvP. It does its main job there and it also have some small usage in PvE. Sounds fair and reasonable, no need to change that.

The point being made was that…

Impenetrable = Prosperous

The same argument made to get Prosperous changed, is the argument being made currently.

Divines is outclassing Impenetrable within PvE at every scenario, which was why I proposed monster heavy attack resistance as the PvE answer to critical resistance, this change would be the least invasive way to add quality to the gear in PvE without changing any value it has in PvP.

Edit: Also wanted to add, Prosperous was a % increase to gold gained from killing monsters, the amount of gold you acquire from killing monsters presently has gone up massively from when the trait existed, supporting the statement that the trait would “save” more money than Impenetrable’s current durability flavor.

The thing is that...

Impenetrable > prosperous

One of the possible reasons prosperous was changed was because impen was doing better thing that prosperous should be best at.

Divines is outclassing most traits in PvE. You think that after adding monster heavy attack resistance to impen suddenly divines wouldn't outclass it? This change would make impen even less usefull than it is right now. like seriously how often mob heavy attacks are an issue in PvE? Definietly less often than You need to repair gear that I can tell You. Like what would be the niche for that mobs heavy attack dmg resistance? That sounds like most useless trait ever. Now alteast I can queue my pvp character into some quick random dailly dungeon and I don't have to worry that my gear will be destroyed in the middle of the run but with mob heavy attack resistance it would literally have zero use unless ZoS would start to add some mobs with powerfull heavy attacks into the game but at this point it would be a change just for the sake of change.

No, base amount of gold that mobs drop havn't changed much since 2017 when prosperous was changed to invigorating. The only thing that changed is that now we have CP passive that increases amount of gold gained so it may seem like we are getting more base gold from mobs but that's not the case. But even that passive is just 10%. And since percentage buffs are additive this CP passive wouldnt affect prosperous trait and if anything it would make it less effective percentage wise when impenetrable already had decent upperhand.

The_Titan_Tim

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Impen actually have its PvE usage. Items with that trait take 50% less durability damage meaning less armor repairing. And it's PvE only usage since armor is not getting damaged in PvP.

In what content does that become the choice for a player for gear? If you’re questing, Training yields better XP results, if you’re farming materials, you would go divines with the Steed mundus stone, if you’re in PvE, you use Divines on Damage Dealers and Healers, Reinforced and Sturdy on Tanks.

Convince me of one scenario where Impenetrable’s durability improvement saves more money than you make while taking advantage of the Steed in all Divines.

At that point, you would be making more money with the old Prosperous trait.

Actually You were not making more money with prosperous trait. Additional gold gained from prosperous was smaller than gold You were saving through less repairs. Multiple people did the math for it and they had the same results.

If You really want to go deep into what traits are really usefull than convince me to one scenario where i would like to use reinforced on light armor pieces, or sturdy on DD set or invigorating in general etc. In all honesty every set have like 3-5 traits that can be considered usefull and the rest is just going to be deconstructed which is also fine because You need to get materials from sowmehere and bad traits are perfect opportunity for that.

Impen is trait mainly for PvP. It does its main job there and it also have some small usage in PvE. Sounds fair and reasonable, no need to change that.

The point being made was that…

Impenetrable = Prosperous

The same argument made to get Prosperous changed, is the argument being made currently.

Divines is outclassing Impenetrable within PvE at every scenario, which was why I proposed monster heavy attack resistance as the PvE answer to critical resistance, this change would be the least invasive way to add quality to the gear in PvE without changing any value it has in PvP.

Edit: Also wanted to add, Prosperous was a % increase to gold gained from killing monsters, the amount of gold you acquire from killing monsters presently has gone up massively from when the trait existed, supporting the statement that the trait would “save” more money than Impenetrable’s current durability flavor.

The thing is that...

Impenetrable > prosperous

One of the possible reasons prosperous was changed was because impen was doing better thing that prosperous should be best at.

Divines is outclassing most traits in PvE. You think that after adding monster heavy attack resistance to impen suddenly divines wouldn't outclass it? This change would make impen even less usefull than it is right now. like seriously how often mob heavy attacks are an issue in PvE? Definietly less often than You need to repair gear that I can tell You. Like what would be the niche for that mobs heavy attack dmg resistance? That sounds like most useless trait ever. Now alteast I can queue my pvp character into some quick random dailly dungeon and I don't have to worry that my gear will be destroyed in the middle of the run but with mob heavy attack resistance it would literally have zero use unless ZoS would start to add some mobs with powerfull heavy attacks into the game but at this point it would be a change just for the sake of change.

No, base amount of gold that mobs drop havn't changed much since 2017 when prosperous was changed to invigorating. The only thing that changed is that now we have CP passive that increases amount of gold gained so it may seem like we are getting more base gold from mobs but that's not the case. But even that passive is just 10%. And since percentage buffs are additive this CP passive wouldnt affect prosperous trait and if anything it would make it less effective percentage wise when impenetrable already had decent upperhand.

Veteran DLC dungeons have adds that one tap you with a heavy attack if it’s not interrupted, and there are countless bosses that will one shot you if they get you with a heavy. Pretty much all of them on Veteran.

Queuing up into dungeons in Impenetrable on a Damage Dealer would make little sense after a change like this, correct. It makes zero sense now.

Little > Zero

You would want it on a tank, which, funny enough, most PvP builds that are seeing common success are using Critical Resistance, and sitting at over 30k Health and using a Sword and Shield or an Ice Staff backbar, now all of those players that came straight out of PvP from one of those Brawler builds, would be able to help fill out the Tank queue for random dungeons by simply slotting Puncture, Inner Fire (massive fan of Inner Beast), or Destructive Clench.

No changes to your gear being necessary. You won’t be optimal, but you’ll be able to block more damage from heavies and actually be able to help your group instead of being a detriment to the other three players you’re queued with, in all “PvP” gear inside of a dungeon.

Contribute to the solution instead of the problem, and if this solution isn’t heavy handed enough to be useful, what would you change to make it so?

Edit: Side note; we were getting nowhere near even 50 gold from a horde of adds, now we’re getting around 100, that’s almost a x2 increase.
Ornate is also extremely common now, compared to back in 2016 where you were lucky to get one in 1,000 zombies.

OBJnoob

Not saying I support this... I don't really care about PvE either way... But the more obvious idea and the answer to the question "what if we need something more heavyhanded," is make it so mobs can crit.

Jaraal

These are the same folks who gave Bosmer stealth detection, even though they said that "mobs can't be bothered to stealth." So, never say never.

The_Titan_Tim

Jaraal wrote: »

These are the same folks who gave Bosmer stealth detection, even though they said that "mobs can't be bothered to stealth." So, never say never.

Right, either full send a division between PvE and PvP, or full send seamless gameplay between the two. Anything that excludes the other needs a removal or should be the direction all new gear moves towards.

I don’t want players built for Critical Resistance within my dungeons as is, as it provides zero combat effectiveness.

I don’t want players ignoring Critical Resistance in my groups for PvP as they are walking Vicious Death or Occult Overload procs.