Do we need rework on cross healing & healing over time, especially in pvp?

Howda

Healing over time to become a named buff that can cross heal only twice (stack)

No burst cross healing in pvp. Etc etc. Let's discuss.

chessalavakia_ESO

No

I think you'd be better off trying to deal with potential excess group healing with a scalpel first before trying to hammer it down.

OBJnoob

Yes

I voted yes but don't particularly like the two examples you gave.

Self-heals should be 100% what they are now and cross heals of any kind should be... I dunno, 65%. Write it into battlespirit. See how it pans out. Go from there.

AdamLAD

Yes

Destroy it into the ground. It's not a tank meta. It's a healing meta. All I fight in cyrodill is healers it's absolutely horrendous. No one dies. Not because I'm doing little damage, it's because they can't be bursted down due to high HP and how good healing is. There seriously needs to be a HP cap in PvP and healing need to be seriously toned down. You can't burst 30k hp down to 0 quick enough when healing is ridiculous. Since HP is so high it takes numerous bursts of damage to kill them and that's just WITHOUT healing on top. Damage as it is, is fine. Few skills maybe a bit ridiculous like speccy bow and snipe but that's it. If zenimax toned down healing and put a cap on HP then the game would be in a healthier state for PvP

Tommy_The_Gun

No

I think that what should be addressed 1st are ball groups and how they can effectively scale stuff so it is 1000% more potent for them. Imho only those are the problem. Despite high healing, solo players, zergs & zerg surfers die quite easily. Ball group on the other hand can casually out heal 20+ sieges... Until we have some kind of battle spirit scaling, so it would make stuff weaker the more people are in the group, balancing PvP in this game is kinda pointless.

blktauna

Can only carry 2 heal stacks at a time. easy peasy.

axi

I think the main issue isnt crosshealing in itself but the fact that majority of burst heals is selfheals and crossheals at the same time while ESO have a system where heals find their targets automatically.

Imagine if there would be an ability that deals high burst damage automatically to enemy with the lowest health within large AoE radius. That would be called OP as hell yet for heals it's normal.

MidniteOwl1913

No

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think you'd be better off trying to deal with potential excess group healing with a scalpel first before trying to hammer it down.

Considering it's already been nerfed pretty hard. Across the board, they don't just nerf PVP when they "balance". It's already hard enough to run even normal-mode DLC dungeons.

Yeah, yeah, cross-heals isn't the same, but when addressing this issue in U35 all healing got nerfed.

Ball groups are so successful because they are disciplined, organized, and practiced. That's why they remain successful even after everything that has been done.

chessalavakia_ESO

No

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think you'd be better off trying to deal with potential excess group healing with a scalpel first before trying to hammer it down.

Considering it's already been nerfed pretty hard. Across the board, they don't just nerf PVP when they "balance". It's already hard enough to run even normal-mode DLC dungeons.

Yeah, yeah, cross-heals isn't the same, but when addressing this issue in U35 all healing got nerfed.

Ball groups are so successful because they are disciplined, organized, and practiced. That's why they remain successful even after everything that has been done.

They nerfed some heals excessively while leaving other heals alone and buffing others.

For example, my tank using Polar Wind heals for roughly as much as my healer does with Combat Prayer and Radiating Regeneration.

Part of the reason for ball group success is like you say that they are disciplined, organized, and practiced but part of it also is that some of the skills and items for PvP work well in a group but work rather poorly otherwise.

For example, both the Ultimate ability for the Support and the Assault line primarily apply to your group so if you aren't in a group much of the impact doesn't occur.

Two more of the PvP abilities and seven of the sets are also set up so only group members benefit and not allies.

That's before you get into sets that you can afford to run in a group that you can't necessarily afford to run solo.

ZOS's current "anti-group" sets frequently are used by groups because the cost of using them for a group is quite low and they can be used to take out other groups or zergs that might threaten them via massive numbers.

I think the design could be adjusted to make the lives of ball groups a bit harder without messing up the rest of the game if they aren't so heavy handed.

Turtle_Bot

Yes

Not a huge rework and definitely not a direct nerf to the healing values of abilities. All that's needed (and something I and many others have been saying for ages now), make it so that HoTs don't stack infinitely (limit to 2 stacks of each HoT so that it shouldn't affect pve which typically only has 2 healers in group, but will cut down on ball groups spamming 50k HPS all the time).

Howda

Yes

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think you'd be better off trying to deal with potential excess group healing with a scalpel first before trying to hammer it down.

Considering it's already been nerfed pretty hard. Across the board, they don't just nerf PVP when they "balance". It's already hard enough to run even normal-mode DLC dungeons.

Yeah, yeah, cross-heals isn't the same, but when addressing this issue in U35 all healing got nerfed.

Ball groups are so successful because they are disciplined, organized, and practiced. That's why they remain successful even after everything that has been done.

They nerfed some heals excessively while leaving other heals alone and buffing others.

For example, my tank using Polar Wind heals for roughly as much as my healer does with Combat Prayer and Radiating Regeneration.

Part of the reason for ball group success is like you say that they are disciplined, organized, and practiced but part of it also is that some of the skills and items for PvP work well in a group but work rather poorly otherwise.

For example, both the Ultimate ability for the Support and the Assault line primarily apply to your group so if you aren't in a group much of the impact doesn't occur.

Two more of the PvP abilities and seven of the sets are also set up so only group members benefit and not allies.

That's before you get into sets that you can afford to run in a group that you can't necessarily afford to run solo.

ZOS's current "anti-group" sets frequently are used by groups because the cost of using them for a group is quite low and they can be used to take out other groups or zergs that might threaten them via massive numbers.

I think the design could be adjusted to make the lives of ball groups a bit harder without messing up the rest of the game if they aren't so heavy handed.

The poll is directed towards pvp and how healing affects pvp in gamestyle and server performance.

Once a ball group arrives spamming heals I cannot swap weapons yet again to fight against them. All due to spamming healing overtime skills that not just keeps them alive but ruins server experience for everyone around them.

Ball groups should have an advantage at all times for their time spent preparing, coordination, and effort. However, not on the expense of others experiencing the game poorly due to server overload.

Limiting stacks suggestion, like you can be affected by vigor only from 2 different sources. The third one and so on, are not affecting you and server should not calculate. Hoping that is possible and that it can improve the effect of ball groups to server performance and bring decent looking fight on the table for the rest.

Howda

Yes

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think you'd be better off trying to deal with potential excess group healing with a scalpel first before trying to hammer it down

For example, both the Ultimate ability for the Support and the Assault line primarily apply to your group so if you aren't in a group much of the impact doesn't occur.

Two more of the PvP abilities and seven of the sets are also set up so only group members benefit and not allies.

That's before you get into sets that you can afford to run in a group that you can't necessarily afford to run solo.

I find it as part of the snowballing effect and the way that group of skills work to be buffing ball groups to a large extent. I bet it helps the server to limit skills to groups but in the same time makes organized pvp light years ahead to the rest.

I was thinking on "everyone for themsleves", no cross healing at all or anything related to that only comms should be the benefit and of course, set combination. Like Counter Strike. lol

Elendir2am

I would vote "yes", but I am afraid of what would they created. I don't have much faith in their ability don't screwing PvE healing in process of addressing PvP healing problem.

The_Titan_Tim

Yes

Cross-healing is a problem yes, but the biggest problem is how high the average health on a player is.

I’m fine with heals healing a lot when you’re a healer, but when your average player spec’d fully into damage, with under 22k max stamina and magicka is healing 3/4ths of their health with a burst heal, forget about HoTs…

Heals need to scale more primarily with max resources, less with damage, and in the process you will begin to see lower max health healers that suddenly become killable again.

Luede

Yes

healing spells would have to be aimed at the target and aeo heals significantly weakened. problem solved

Howda

Yes

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Cross-healing is a problem yes, but the biggest problem is how high the average health on a player is.

I’m fine with heals healing a lot when you’re a healer, but when your average player spec’d fully into damage, with under 22k max stamina and magicka is healing 3/4ths of their health with a burst heal, forget about HoTs…

Heals need to scale more primarily with max resources, less with damage, and in the process you will begin to see lower max health healers that suddenly become killable again.

I also think healing could be flat and only affected by sets or mundus stones not linked to resources or damage, being linked to damage is wrong imo.

chessalavakia_ESO

No

Howda wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think you'd be better off trying to deal with potential excess group healing with a scalpel first before trying to hammer it down.

Considering it's already been nerfed pretty hard. Across the board, they don't just nerf PVP when they "balance". It's already hard enough to run even normal-mode DLC dungeons.

Yeah, yeah, cross-heals isn't the same, but when addressing this issue in U35 all healing got nerfed.

Ball groups are so successful because they are disciplined, organized, and practiced. That's why they remain successful even after everything that has been done.

They nerfed some heals excessively while leaving other heals alone and buffing others.

For example, my tank using Polar Wind heals for roughly as much as my healer does with Combat Prayer and Radiating Regeneration.

Part of the reason for ball group success is like you say that they are disciplined, organized, and practiced but part of it also is that some of the skills and items for PvP work well in a group but work rather poorly otherwise.

For example, both the Ultimate ability for the Support and the Assault line primarily apply to your group so if you aren't in a group much of the impact doesn't occur.

Two more of the PvP abilities and seven of the sets are also set up so only group members benefit and not allies.

That's before you get into sets that you can afford to run in a group that you can't necessarily afford to run solo.

ZOS's current "anti-group" sets frequently are used by groups because the cost of using them for a group is quite low and they can be used to take out other groups or zergs that might threaten them via massive numbers.

I think the design could be adjusted to make the lives of ball groups a bit harder without messing up the rest of the game if they aren't so heavy handed.

The poll is directed towards pvp and how healing affects pvp in gamestyle and server performance.

Once a ball group arrives spamming heals I cannot swap weapons yet again to fight against them. All due to spamming healing overtime skills that not just keeps them alive but ruins server experience for everyone around them.

Ball groups should have an advantage at all times for their time spent preparing, coordination, and effort. However, not on the expense of others experiencing the game poorly due to server overload.

Limiting stacks suggestion, like you can be affected by vigor only from 2 different sources. The third one and so on, are not affecting you and server should not calculate. Hoping that is possible and that it can improve the effect of ball groups to server performance and bring decent looking fight on the table for the rest.

I'm not going to pretend NA servers are totally perfect now but, they don't die to the point you can't swap weapons when a single ball group shows up healing.

Depending on where you live in the EU, you might want to give NA servers a spin and see if it's more fun for you till they swap the servers.

Janni

Yes

I voted yes but I think it's not the root of the problem. This didn't really seem to be a nightmare problem until after CP 2.0. I was playing in the no-cp camp back then and we all thought the extra stats would turn everyone into a tank. Looks like we were right, sorta. The final nail in the coffin was hybridization though. These two changes, tons of extra free stats and access to every skill in the game, have turned it into what we see now.

All that having been said yes HoT stacking has always seemed pretty strong to me. We've all made simple suggestions in the past about how to fix this problem.

Janni

Yes

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Howda wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

I think you'd be better off trying to deal with potential excess group healing with a scalpel first before trying to hammer it down.

Considering it's already been nerfed pretty hard. Across the board, they don't just nerf PVP when they "balance". It's already hard enough to run even normal-mode DLC dungeons.

Yeah, yeah, cross-heals isn't the same, but when addressing this issue in U35 all healing got nerfed.

Ball groups are so successful because they are disciplined, organized, and practiced. That's why they remain successful even after everything that has been done.

They nerfed some heals excessively while leaving other heals alone and buffing others.

For example, my tank using Polar Wind heals for roughly as much as my healer does with Combat Prayer and Radiating Regeneration.

Part of the reason for ball group success is like you say that they are disciplined, organized, and practiced but part of it also is that some of the skills and items for PvP work well in a group but work rather poorly otherwise.

For example, both the Ultimate ability for the Support and the Assault line primarily apply to your group so if you aren't in a group much of the impact doesn't occur.

Two more of the PvP abilities and seven of the sets are also set up so only group members benefit and not allies.

That's before you get into sets that you can afford to run in a group that you can't necessarily afford to run solo.

ZOS's current "anti-group" sets frequently are used by groups because the cost of using them for a group is quite low and they can be used to take out other groups or zergs that might threaten them via massive numbers.

I think the design could be adjusted to make the lives of ball groups a bit harder without messing up the rest of the game if they aren't so heavy handed.

The poll is directed towards pvp and how healing affects pvp in gamestyle and server performance.

Once a ball group arrives spamming heals I cannot swap weapons yet again to fight against them. All due to spamming healing overtime skills that not just keeps them alive but ruins server experience for everyone around them.

Ball groups should have an advantage at all times for their time spent preparing, coordination, and effort. However, not on the expense of others experiencing the game poorly due to server overload.

Limiting stacks suggestion, like you can be affected by vigor only from 2 different sources. The third one and so on, are not affecting you and server should not calculate. Hoping that is possible and that it can improve the effect of ball groups to server performance and bring decent looking fight on the table for the rest.

I'm not going to pretend NA servers are totally perfect now but, they don't die to the point you can't swap weapons when a single ball group shows up healing.

Depending on where you live in the EU, you might want to give NA servers a spin and see if it's more fun for you till they swap the servers.

Just wanted to chime in that yes, definitely some of us cannot play the game anymore when ballgroups show up. This in on PC NA. Barswaps, skills, breakfrees, taking multiple seconds to respond are all the hallmarks of poor servers performance and are all present when the groups show up. TBF this seems to happen even when we run into just a single other person sometimes. They are not nearly as bad as they used to be be. For example, gravity at least seems to still exists whereas it would stop working before.

But this just starts an off-topic conversation that should be in another thread so I'll stop there. We should prolly vote on the merits of game balance and not worry about performance impact. That's zeni's job, supposedly.

Sparxlost

neeed? no. want? maybe yes

NordSwordnBoard

Yes

If I had to nail it to one thing: smart heals. Everybody can heal if all you have to do is press a button in a rotation. You can heal without aiming. Smart heals follow even the most quick and nimble player, why stack heals on the ground within enemy aoe damage, when you can simply leave the bad area but still get the heals? The combo of speed, LoS, and HoT for extending/kiting could be reduced if static ground heals became the choice over player based HoT. I remember the backlash against damage over time being over buffed, and the current HoT situation feels similar.

Increase the cost of heals so that only actual healers are able to sustain heal spam in PvP. Band aid this nerf with a mythic to sell to PvE healers to help ease them into the transition. The mythic could be BiS for PvE healing, help sell a bunch of chapters, and not function in PvP. Learn from the Oakensoul experience!

Artim_X

No

God forbid someone plays a healer in PvP and wants to save a random in their faction that is helping defend an objective...

Janni

Yes

Artim_X wrote: »

God forbid someone plays a healer in PvP and wants to save a random in their faction that is helping defend an objective...

Nobody is suggesting that we don't want this. The reality is that right now nobody needs what you are suggesting because it's currently the weakest way to play. EVERYONE is a pocket healer now. Literally everyone. And their strength in healing is no less diminished by the fact that they don't play the role in a dedicated fashion. In fact it's stronger! And when you have to fight groups of 12 to 24 of them at a time it makes it impossible to make any kind of strategy for fighting them. They all heal so you can't target the healers in an effort to cut off the group's survival. They all heal so there is no need for the group to counter and defend when a healer is focused. And they all heal so there is no need or room for a dedicated and skilled healer.

KingExecration

Yes

Mega buff defile again, should’ve never left like it did

tincanman

No

Howda wrote: »

Healing over time to become a named buff that can cross heal only twice (stack)

No burst cross healing in pvp. Etc etc. Let's discuss.

should be posted in pvp section...

pls stop asking for nerfs because you never get what you ask for and sledgehammer tends to be used to achieve stuff no one ever asked for that takes months/years to undo, if ever.

pve(since you posted in 'combat & char mechanics') healing has been gutted enough, thanks; if any such changes were exclusive to pvp then that's a different discussion (but still no). but we all know any such changes wouldn't be limited to pvp because of that sledgehammer.

A better alternative in my view, if any change is needed, would be to ease up on battle spirit damage limitation to let more through. the healing would still mitigate burst somewhat (post-burst recovery) but would put individual(s) purely on the defensive and, if all you can do is block-cast heals without group/ally support (which is perfectly acceptable and to be encouraged) then you're not doing anything else. in the latter case it resolves to ping/resource race/dmg(heal)/luck numbers for outcome.

And get rid of cast times on ultimates.

so hard 'no' to any more heal nerfs. thanks.

MidniteOwl1913

No

tincanman wrote: »

Howda wrote: »

Healing over time to become a named buff that can cross heal only twice (stack)

No burst cross healing in pvp. Etc etc. Let's discuss.

should be posted in pvp section...

pls stop asking for nerfs because you never get what you ask for and sledgehammer tends to be used to achieve stuff no one ever asked for that takes months/years to undo, if ever.

pve(since you posted in 'combat & char mechanics') healing has been gutted enough, thanks; if any such changes were exclusive to pvp then that's a different discussion (but still no). but we all know any such changes wouldn't be limited to pvp because of that sledgehammer.

A better alternative in my view, if any change is needed, would be to ease up on battle spirit damage limitation to let more through. the healing would still mitigate burst somewhat (post-burst recovery) but would put individual(s) purely on the defensive and, if all you can do is block-cast heals without group/ally support (which is perfectly acceptable and to be encouraged) then you're not doing anything else. in the latter case it resolves to ping/resource race/dmg(heal)/luck numbers for outcome.

And get rid of cast times on ultimates.

so hard 'no' to any more heal nerfs. thanks.

Yes, I notice that the mods seem quick to move posts to places they deem more appropriate, but rarely PVP-focused topics. Even when this is the case here, PVP is in the title, a post obviously in the wrong category.

And also yes PVE healing has had quite enough nerfs. Not enough healing is more of a problem now if anything. If a change is needed a buff would be more appropriate for PVE.

Lebkuchen

No

Can we please let them fix performance issues and bugs first? Like only ask for performance improvements and bug fixes for a while, until they understand that it's unplayable when most people want to play (after work/school and on weekends)? I am sick and tired of them breaking the game even more, every time they try to make some useless changes.

xXCJsniperXx7

No

No, not unless it doesn't nerf pve healing, but that's just wishful thinking.

Vevvev

Buff Major and Minor Defile and you'll nerf healing in PvP. Rarely see that debuff come up in PvE.

Araneae6537

No

Vevvev wrote: »

Buff Major and Minor Defile and you'll nerf healing in PvP. Rarely see that debuff come up in PvE.

That could be an issue for necro healers, although I’m not sure how many skills apply it besides the emergency burst heal.

I think any changes should be done in a way to balance ball groups — not that there shouldn’t be reward for working well as a group — but that seems to be where things seem overpowered. In a regular group I can tell you it’s impossible to out-heal the damage inflicted by skilled players or siege. I don’t know what the answer is, but further nerfing all healing is not it.

MurkyWetWolf198

Yes

Would a 30% decrease to healing received tied to Battle Spirit be about right? Think that would be enough to hurt, but not to nuke