Status Update on Server Code Redesign?

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Amottica wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

[...] That is more than I would expect since companies understandably refrain from repeating themselves over and over and over again. So they have clearly and undeniably shown their customers they are working on the project. [...]

1 announcement, 1"update" and maybe a hand full of answers with no new info in a whole year is not exactly "repeating ... over and over and over again"

@Lebkuchen

If you look at my quote Kevin repeated what they said just a few weeks prior which was repeating what the devs said not long before that and stated there was nothing new to report. That is the definition of repeating themself over and over again.

A no update at this time update is not a status response it is a push off. Something as simple as a statement that "We've completed the design and have started working on the implementation", "We are still working on the design" or "We ran into something we didn't expect that requires extra time to resolve". Any of these would go a long way in showing ZOS is doing something more than sitting on their hands. If ZOS wants players to stop speculating then they need to change so they don't give players a reason to speculate.

SaffronCitrusflower

brylars wrote: »

They are needing to do this and develop their new game, Starfield. Which one do you think is going to be the priority now? The tech industry is having labor issues and MMOs are struggling to keep players because they are all doing the same thing, the same mistakes.

I figured we are at the "take it or leave it stage" of this relationship. Personally, I am going to "take it." I have too much money, time, and friendships invested in the game to leave it now. I will probably stay till they flip the switch.

I will not even consider buying another ZOS product unless they fix ESO, as they have said "they are working on it" for quite some time now. It doesn't matter how good any of their new products might be. If they don't fix ESO it will be the last ZOS product I will have spent money on....and I've spent a lot of money on ESO just to be let down these last couple years.

React

Amottica wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

[...] That is more than I would expect since companies understandably refrain from repeating themselves over and over and over again. So they have clearly and undeniably shown their customers they are working on the project. [...]

1 announcement, 1"update" and maybe a hand full of answers with no new info in a whole year is not exactly "repeating ... over and over and over again"

@Lebkuchen

If you look at my quote Kevin repeated what they said just a few weeks prior which was repeating what the devs said not long before that and stated there was nothing new to report. That is the definition of repeating themself over and over again.

The point that you keep ignoring is that the community is not willing to accept this as an answer. We've already gone through a year-long "performance improvement" on eso once before, which resulted in no improvement whatsoever. People are understandably concerned that the same thing might occur here, especially given that there has been no tangibleupdate on this project after 10 months.

It is our right as customers to continue to ask for updates on a project that will determine, for many of us, how long we continue to play and spend money on ESO.

doesurmindglow

I'm also interested in some kind of progress report and communication around the timeline for this change, though I'll admit my interest in the game in generally waning.

I'm not alone -- the playerbase is in a pretty dire state at the moment. The combination of years of unaddressed performance issues and bugs coupled with a developer focus instead on dramatic balance swings seems to have taken its toll. I've seen multiple guilds disband and one of mine shifted its focus entirely to FF14, but where I've noticed the downturn most immediately is in the activity level and sales volume of the trading guild I manage.

In either case, it would be good to know there is some effort to address the things that have driven so many players away, and high on the list among them is the persistent problem of poor game performance and server responsiveness.

edward_frigidhands

I am really hoping this can get some kind of a developer response.

Jaraal

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I'm not alone -- the playerbase is in a pretty dire state at the moment. The combination of years of unaddressed performance issues and bugs coupled with a developer focus instead on dramatic balance swings seems to have taken its toll. I've seen multiple guilds disband and one of mine shifted its focus entirely to FF14, but where I've noticed the downturn most immediately is in the activity level and sales volume of the trading guild I manage.

Yes, the trading guilds I'm in have lost membership and sales as well. Not to mention that there's hardly ever a queue for Gray Host any more. The recent developer decisions have definitely seem to have taken a toll.

There was a daily average of Steam ESO players of 19,679 at the beginning of the year. It's currently dropped to 13,168 per day. That's a huge drop, and it's reasonable to extrapolate that there may be similar losses of non-Steam PC and console players as well. And the silence about the unexplained changes in direction and a vision we can only guess at certainly doesn't help with player confidence, and ultimately, retention.

edward_frigidhands

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

[...] That is more than I would expect since companies understandably refrain from repeating themselves over and over and over again. So they have clearly and undeniably shown their customers they are working on the project. [...]

1 announcement, 1"update" and maybe a hand full of answers with no new info in a whole year is not exactly "repeating ... over and over and over again"

@Lebkuchen

If you look at my quote Kevin repeated what they said just a few weeks prior which was repeating what the devs said not long before that and stated there was nothing new to report. That is the definition of repeating themself over and over again.

The point that you keep ignoring is that the community is not willing to accept this as an answer. We've already gone through a year-long "performance improvement" on eso once before, which resulted in no improvement whatsoever. People are understandably concerned that the same thing might occur here, especially given that there has been no tangibleupdate on this project after 10 months.

It is our right as customers to continue to ask for updates on a project that will determine, for many of us, how long we continue to play and spend money on ESO.

I couldn't agree with this more. Especially the very last part.

Destai

Amottica wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin commented on this just a few weeks ago, which was a repeat of what they said just a few weeks before that. I will provide it here.

I did answer this in another thread a few weeks ago, but I'll answer here as well. We don't have any updates to share at the moment regarding the re-architecture. However, when the team has more concrete info to share, we will. As you may know, this is a delicate process that takes time to make sure we get this right. So while we don't have any updates now, we hope to share more in the future.

But we are passing on that players are asking for updates around the re-architecture.

Essentially that is all Zenimax will be saying until they reach a point they feel they are getting near the end of this process. The timeline of such a project is set in jello (project talk) since issues can come up that change the completion target.

I hope that when it is complete, the game will be in good shape for years to come. 🤞

@LarsS that comment basically says they will give us a probable timeline when they feel they are at a point they can give us a reasonable projection of a probable timeline. Zenimax is very consistent about not commenting on anything until they are ready to comment on it. Remember they spoke about Spell Crafting back in 2014 and see what happened with that.

I worry it's being interpreted as "curious college kids wanting to know more about game design" rather than an attempt to being held to a professional standard. For me, it's the latter.

blktauna

I don't understand why, if they have this well rounded vision they want to move forward, we can't even get milestones...
There doesn't even need to be dates attached, just general progress milestones for moving the game out of the state that it's in.

No milestones for the re-write. In fact nothing at all on it.

In fact I still don't understand why we can't get a list of what actually works in no-proc form ZOS. I mean they should know right?

This is basic stuff, why is it such a secret?

It makes me worried and sad because I haven't been this sucked in by a game since Wizardry (yes Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord) and I am really not happy that this may all just go poof one day with no warning. It's making me not spend because I don't really want to sink coin into something that's going to vanish in the all too near future.

UnabashedlyHonest

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

I am really hoping this can get some kind of a developer response.

Yepper. This thread needs a response from ZOS, and that response needs to be more detailed than "We're working on it".

Amottica

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

[...] That is more than I would expect since companies understandably refrain from repeating themselves over and over and over again. So they have clearly and undeniably shown their customers they are working on the project. [...]

1 announcement, 1"update" and maybe a hand full of answers with no new info in a whole year is not exactly "repeating ... over and over and over again"

If you look at my quote Kevin repeated what they said just a few weeks prior which was repeating what the devs said not long before that and stated there was nothing new to report. That is the definition of repeating themself over and over again.

A no update at this time update is not a status response it is a push off. .

Nothing further to report at this time is a status response.

baltic1284

Amottica wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

[...] That is more than I would expect since companies understandably refrain from repeating themselves over and over and over again. So they have clearly and undeniably shown their customers they are working on the project. [...]

1 announcement, 1"update" and maybe a hand full of answers with no new info in a whole year is not exactly "repeating ... over and over and over again"

If you look at my quote Kevin repeated what they said just a few weeks prior which was repeating what the devs said not long before that and stated there was nothing new to report. That is the definition of repeating themself over and over again.

A no update at this time update is not a status response it is a push off. .

Nothing further to report at this time is a status response.

Nothing personal just like everyone else said is generally taken anymore as a kick the issue down the road response. It lost is meaning when they over used it on everything they could

React

Amottica wrote: »

Alinhbo_Tyaka wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

[...] That is more than I would expect since companies understandably refrain from repeating themselves over and over and over again. So they have clearly and undeniably shown their customers they are working on the project. [...]

1 announcement, 1"update" and maybe a hand full of answers with no new info in a whole year is not exactly "repeating ... over and over and over again"

If you look at my quote Kevin repeated what they said just a few weeks prior which was repeating what the devs said not long before that and stated there was nothing new to report. That is the definition of repeating themself over and over again.

A no update at this time update is not a status response it is a push off. .

Nothing further to report at this time is a status response.

It isn't an adequate one. The community is stating their frustrations and demanding the bare minimum here, which would be a tangible update on the project.

I don't understand why you keep repeating the same "no eta" comment in each thread on this topic. It is very obvious that the people here are aware of the most recent "no eta update", and are continuing to request this information because it is their right as players and customers to do so.

DMuehlhausen

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

brylars wrote: »

They are needing to do this and develop their new game, Starfield. Which one do you think is going to be the priority now? The tech industry is having labor issues and MMOs are struggling to keep players because they are all doing the same thing, the same mistakes.

I figured we are at the "take it or leave it stage" of this relationship. Personally, I am going to "take it." I have too much money, time, and friendships invested in the game to leave it now. I will probably stay till they flip the switch.

I will not even consider buying another ZOS product unless they fix ESO, as they have said "they are working on it" for quite some time now. It doesn't matter how good any of their new products might be. If they don't fix ESO it will be the last ZOS product I will have spent money on....and I've spent a lot of money on ESO just to be let down these last couple years.

You understand ZoS has nothing to do with Starfield right.

DMuehlhausen

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

[...] That is more than I would expect since companies understandably refrain from repeating themselves over and over and over again. So they have clearly and undeniably shown their customers they are working on the project. [...]

1 announcement, 1"update" and maybe a hand full of answers with no new info in a whole year is not exactly "repeating ... over and over and over again"

@Lebkuchen

If you look at my quote Kevin repeated what they said just a few weeks prior which was repeating what the devs said not long before that and stated there was nothing new to report. That is the definition of repeating themself over and over again.

The point that you keep ignoring is that the community is not willing to accept this as an answer. We've already gone through a year-long "performance improvement" on eso once before, which resulted in no improvement whatsoever. People are understandably concerned that the same thing might occur here, especially given that there has been no tangibleupdate on this project after 10 months.

It is our right as customers to continue to ask for updates on a project that will determine, for many of us, how long we continue to play and spend money on ESO.

I couldn't agree with this more. Especially the very last part.

Where in the User Agreements does it state you have a right to get any response? I've read them...nowhere does it state this. You freely give them money and they owe you nothing. Developers will never respond to posts like this. They use to until somebody threatened to kill Eyonix from Blizzard. Then Devs slowly retreated from public view. Even now you hear stories of people finding and showing up Devs homes because of a change or something they didn't like.

Just like Fantasy sports people have gotten the belief in their head that they have some say over what a company decides to do with it's owned IP. You have 0 say and will never have a say in it.

Amottica

Destai wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin commented on this just a few weeks ago, which was a repeat of what they said just a few weeks before that. I will provide it here.

I did answer this in another thread a few weeks ago, but I'll answer here as well. We don't have any updates to share at the moment regarding the re-architecture. However, when the team has more concrete info to share, we will. As you may know, this is a delicate process that takes time to make sure we get this right. So while we don't have any updates now, we hope to share more in the future.

But we are passing on that players are asking for updates around the re-architecture.

Essentially that is all Zenimax will be saying until they reach a point they feel they are getting near the end of this process. The timeline of such a project is set in jello (project talk) since issues can come up that change the completion target.

I hope that when it is complete, the game will be in good shape for years to come. 🤞

@LarsS that comment basically says they will give us a probable timeline when they feel they are at a point they can give us a reasonable projection of a probable timeline. Zenimax is very consistent about not commenting on anything until they are ready to comment on it. Remember they spoke about Spell Crafting back in 2014 and see what happened with that.

I worry it's being interpreted as "curious college kids wanting to know more about game design" rather than an attempt to be held to a professional standard. For me, it's the latter.

In reality, we are a bunch of curious college kids. Most of us are not familiar with the project management of software development. One phrase I enjoyed from one project I worked on was that dates are set in jello.

I expect Matt or Rich to provide an update in their EOY message to us. Until then I doubt they will say much more than they already have. I am more interested in this being done right vs rushed.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

[snip]

Amottica wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin commented on this just a few weeks ago, which was a repeat of what they said just a few weeks before that. I will provide it here.

I did answer this in another thread a few weeks ago, but I'll answer here as well. We don't have any updates to share at the moment regarding the re-architecture. However, when the team has more concrete info to share, we will. As you may know, this is a delicate process that takes time to make sure we get this right. So while we don't have any updates now, we hope to share more in the future.

But we are passing on that players are asking for updates around the re-architecture.

Essentially that is all Zenimax will be saying until they reach a point they feel they are getting near the end of this process. The timeline of such a project is set in jello (project talk) since issues can come up that change the completion target.

I hope that when it is complete, the game will be in good shape for years to come. 🤞

@LarsS that comment basically says they will give us a probable timeline when they feel they are at a point they can give us a reasonable projection of a probable timeline. Zenimax is very consistent about not commenting on anything until they are ready to comment on it. Remember they spoke about Spell Crafting back in 2014 and see what happened with that.

I worry it's being interpreted as "curious college kids wanting to know more about game design" rather than an attempt to be held to a professional standard. For me, it's the latter.

In reality, we are a bunch of curious college kids. Most of us are not familiar with the project management of software development. One phrase I enjoyed from one project I worked on was that dates are set in jello.

I expect Matt or Rich to provide an update in their EOY message to us. Until then I doubt they will say much more than they already have. I am more interested in this being done right vs rushed.

I'm no college kid and have well over 30 years experience in software architecture and design. There is no excuse for ZOS to continue blow the player base off with "No status" updates as they very well know the status. Personally I don't have any high expectation we will ever see an update [snip]

[edited for baiting]

DemonicGoat

Amottica wrote: »

]

I worry it's being interpreted as "curious college kids wanting to know more about game design" rather than an attempt to be held to a professional standard. For me, it's the latter.

In reality, we are a bunch of curious college kids. Most of us are not familiar with the project management of software development. One phrase I enjoyed from one project I worked on was that dates are set in jello.

[/quote]

Dont speak for me. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

blktauna

DemonicGoat wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

someone lost above wrote:

I worry it's being interpreted as "curious college kids wanting to know more about game design" rather than an attempt to be held to a professional standard. For me, it's the latter.

In reality, we are a bunch of curious college kids. Most of us are not familiar with the project management of software development. One phrase I enjoyed from one project I worked on was that dates are set in jello.

Dont speak for me. [snip]

Same. 25 years as a software developer and now Project Manager in SWD.
I am really mystefied at ZOS treating the players as an inconvenience. I mean playeers are what you want, no? Would it not make your lives easier to cater to them? Or at least not be antagonistic? Is staff is short, would it not be smarter to do smaller, less sweeping incrementals? I mean the business decisions behind most of this are just odd.

And yes ZOS has nothing to do with Starfield, [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Stamicka

I was skeptical as soon as I heard about this whole process honestly. Seemingly out of nowhere they just identified a way to improve performance issues that have lasted for 7+ years? Also I would expect improvements like this to be gradual, not all at once. Why haven’t they tested it in pieces at a time?

I’ll be shocked if this happens in the near future. I can’t wait to read their explanation as to why they can’t complete this anymore.

Hurbster

Jaimeh wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

you really should not put any hopes into the code redesign, you can only be disappointed

Do you really feel that they would mislead people this way about something so important?

I mean, the year of performance was anything but...

The year of no new systems was also a classic.

Lebkuchen

Stamicka wrote: »

I was skeptical as soon as I heard about this whole process honestly. Seemingly out of nowhere they just identified a way to improve performance issues that have lasted for 7+ years? Also I would expect improvements like this to be gradual, not all at once. Why haven’t they tested it in pieces at a time?

I’ll be shocked if this happens in the near future. I can’t wait to read their explanation as to why they can’t complete this anymore.

I hope for the best, but i don't expect this new project to fix anything. Whatever they have been doing all these years feels more like damage control and triage than a real plan for the whole game. PvP and endgame are almost dead, and i am not sure what they could sacrifice next. Of course it would be nice if this "code re-architecture and server update" could fix more than it will break, but my faith has been tested way too often, and it's hard to still believe in miracles. They never really talk to us. Almost every announcement is well timed after some kind of PR disaster. So i guess there will be a new announcement soon. To calm everyone down. But i fear it will not change anything. Performance and bugs are sucking the fun out of the game and make most players leave when they reach a level where these things start to matter. Whoever stays and hopes for improvements is in love with this game and should not be treated like the enemy. Most of us just want to play what they invested in, and it would be nice if someone could finally step up and deliver. But like i said, i do not really believe in miracles anymore.

RMW

At this point I would be happy if we could get any update - even if they need more time.

"Hey, we know we said it would take most of 2022 but as of now we need half or 2023" or something along the lines. We're at the end of 2022 - an update that says it might take longer is the minimum of communication.

I love ESO. I want this game to be as amazing as it could be but that is not possible if parts of the game are simply broken and asking for a bit for communication or acknowledgement on that matter feels like overstepping some kind of bounderies.

LarsS

ZOS_MattFiror wrote: »

It’s long past time to give everyone an update on where we are with PvP improvements. As many of you know, we did a series of tests over the last year to give us more data. These tests were successful and gave us the information we needed. We now have a plan going forward - but heads up: it is going to take some time.

In short – just like we did for the client a year or so back when we introduced multithreaded rendering to increase client frame rates – we are going to rearchitect our server. The version of ESO in 2022 is many magnitudes larger and more complex than the ESO that launched in 2014. So, in order to give everyone a good play experience in high-intensity situations like PvP and Trials, we need to essentially rewrite some of the foundational server code to account for it. This should dramatically increase server performance, but obviously we will need to test and evaluate as we go along.

We’ve been planning this for the last quarter and we’re starting work on it right now. But, as you can imagine, changing the fundamentals of a huge live game such as ESO is a delicate and multi-stepped process, so expect this to take up much of 2022. Much of the early work is going to happen behind the scenes and we are definitely not going to rush it. A re-architecture of this magnitude will require the entire game to be re-tested and evaluated, as this particular code is the foundation on which the game is built. It will take tons of QA and testing time as well, and I’m sure that when the time comes, we’ll do as large a test as we can on the PTS.

In the meantime, we’ll consider additional ways to keep Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds interesting and exciting (for example, potentially special rulesets or weekend events) and will continue to work on bug fixes affecting combat, but we won’t be adding any new features to PvP until the work mentioned above is complete. Doing so would not only prolong the fixes we want to implement but would also exacerbate the issue of poor performance.

We completely understand the frustration many of you are feeling, especially with lack of information about our PvP plans. This was a huge decision to make and we needed to make sure we had exhausted all other possibilities before announcing this. Thanks for bearing with us, and we will give you periodic updates about the re-architecture progress over the course of the year.

This is the message from ZOS (updated twice I think), I have highlighted, the part of the statement where they promiss periodic updates on the project. I guess, one can say that the no new information messages can be regarded as such, but its also obvious that its not enough. Just read the comments in this thread. I did expect more and I think many more did so to.

SPR_of_HA_community

Just if think serious about it:

We have less active players than before. If we believe in Steam statisticks it drops to 2017-2018 years.

Game did not lag so much in that years for me like it lags now. I do not see some bugs, like I see now.

So ... it looks like they do not make some server optimization now even with out answer.

And with answer that they did it in 2020-2021 years I as a player do not see real changes in as example Cyrodil, that games work better, because for me - it does not look like that at all.

I have 3-5 seconds delays on skills and HA of lightning staffs stop working a lot. The same time some times I instantly die with not even see skills that kills me. As example dark convergence with no animation + some thing else.

So it looks really bad for me, but I think may be not all players have such problems, may be now it depends on some thing else.

The same time in PVE all is OK, but ... block do not some times work ?

ZOS_GinaBruno

One of our main priorities right now is upgrading the remaining server hardware which is still ongoing and on track - we'll have an update on the timeline before the end of the year. We have also been working on the re-architecture we originally mentioned earlier this year. It's worth noting this isn't a single item that will go into an individual update, but contains many smaller pieces that will be released over multiple updates starting next year.

SaffronCitrusflower

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

brylars wrote: »

They are needing to do this and develop their new game, Starfield. Which one do you think is going to be the priority now? The tech industry is having labor issues and MMOs are struggling to keep players because they are all doing the same thing, the same mistakes.

I figured we are at the "take it or leave it stage" of this relationship. Personally, I am going to "take it." I have too much money, time, and friendships invested in the game to leave it now. I will probably stay till they flip the switch.

I will not even consider buying another ZOS product unless they fix ESO, as they have said "they are working on it" for quite some time now. It doesn't matter how good any of their new products might be. If they don't fix ESO it will be the last ZOS product I will have spent money on....and I've spent a lot of money on ESO just to be let down these last couple years.

You understand ZoS has nothing to do with Starfield right.

Bethesda and ZOS aren't doing business under the same roof?

SaffronCitrusflower

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

One of our main priorities right now is upgrading the remaining server hardware which is still ongoing and on track - we'll have an update on the timeline before the end of the year. We have also been working on the re-architecture we originally mentioned earlier this year. It's worth noting this isn't a single item that will go into an individual update, but contains many smaller pieces that will be released over multiple updates starting next year.

Thank you.

Destai

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

One of our main priorities right now is upgrading the remaining server hardware which is still ongoing and on track - we'll have an update on the timeline before the end of the year. We have also been working on the re-architecture we originally mentioned earlier this year. It's worth noting this isn't a single item that will go into an individual update, but contains many smaller pieces that will be released over multiple updates starting next year.

Thank you, @ZOS_GinaBruno. When you provide that timeline update, can you also share what the "smaller pieces" are - at least at a high level?

blktauna

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

One of our main priorities right now is upgrading the remaining server hardware which is still ongoing and on track - we'll have an update on the timeline before the end of the year. We have also been working on the re-architecture we originally mentioned earlier this year. It's worth noting this isn't a single item that will go into an individual update, but contains many smaller pieces that will be released over multiple updates starting next year.

Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno. Nice to know its on track.

Many of us are more than aware the rewrite is not a single item. Is there any proposed timeline for these increments?