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Templar underperforming

  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    If I understand @Cloudrest proposal on it, while yes; huge numbers like that did not happen often, but they were possible. It seems the idea would be to make it more controlled by action and counters and less volatile of a swing when fighting someone who doesn't know and just eats it to see that high damage
  • Cloudrest
    Cloudrest
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    If I understand @Cloudrest proposal on it, while yes; huge numbers like that did not happen often, but they were possible. It seems the idea would be to make it more controlled by action and counters and less volatile of a swing when fighting someone who doesn't know and just eats it to see that high damage

    I was hitting 15k-20k crits last patch against average players. It wasn't uncommon. The 26k crit, as far as I know, is the hardest the ability has ever hit for me and I haven't seen anyone else post a PL crit that big. Again, that was last patch, though. This patch (Firesong) the ability has been useless.

    The proposal is meant to bring the damage in line with other delayed burst abilities, and making it more consistent with the ability for an opponent to actually counterplay against it. The copied damage mechanic is super clunky and prone to glitching out and hasn't ever worked properly. In my mind, a Purifying Light that works off a stack-based mechanic like Assassin's Will would be ideal for Templar.
    Formerly @Cloudrest, now @Nightwielder in-game on PC/NA. Cyrodiil PvPer; retired duelist and PvE Trifecta DPS.
    Empyrean Knight Gwynevere | ♔ Breton Templar | AR50 Grand Overlord II | 9400+ hours | Aldmeri Dominion
    Merethiel of Vaulinchyl |🗡Altmer Nightblade | AR50 Grand Overlord I | 3000+ hours | Aldmeri Dominion
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  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Cloudrest wrote: »
    If I understand @Cloudrest proposal on it, while yes; huge numbers like that did not happen often, but they were possible. It seems the idea would be to make it more controlled by action and counters and less volatile of a swing when fighting someone who doesn't know and just eats it to see that high damage

    I was hitting 15k-20k crits last patch against average players. It wasn't uncommon. The 26k crit, as far as I know, is the hardest the ability has ever hit for me and I haven't seen anyone else post a PL crit that big. Again, that was last patch, though. This patch (Firesong) the ability has been useless.

    The proposal is meant to bring the damage in line with other delayed burst abilities, and making it more consistent with the ability for an opponent to actually counterplay against it. The copied damage mechanic is super clunky and prone to glitching out and hasn't ever worked properly. In my mind, a Purifying Light that works off a stack-based mechanic like Assassin's Will would be ideal for Templar.

    Just posting to say that Cloudrest's posted damage is accurate on the average player. A damage reduction is fine, sure, but what it is right now is a joke.
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • MEBengalsFan2001
    MEBengalsFan2001
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    Syiccal wrote: »
    Remember when blazing spear cc'd everyone..deemed too op and got nerfed..

    One of the better skills templar have is dark flare. It is a nice starting skill to use against a target to get give them major defile but also to get the 10% spell damage buff. The issue is if the player moves and you lose LoS, the templar chjaracter ends up in a very strange and annoying animation that can't be cancelled until the character fires off dark flare. This can result in a player dying because they can't do anything else for a while.

    This skill should be instant cast. I rather the devs add the casting time to javelin or toppling charge since both seem to offer better usage than Dark Flare.
    Edited by MEBengalsFan2001 on December 13, 2022 4:29PM
  • gariondavey
    gariondavey
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    Syiccal wrote: »
    Remember when blazing spear cc'd everyone..deemed too op and got nerfed..

    One of the better skills templar have is dark flare. It is a nice starting skill to use against a target to get give them major defile but also to get the 10% spell damage buff. The issue is if the player moves and you lose LoS, the templar chjaracter ends up in a very strange and annoying animation that can't be cancelled until the character fires off dark flare. This can result in a player dying because they can't do anything else for a while.

    This skill should be instant cast. I rather the devs add the casting time to javelin or toppling charge since both seem to offer better usage than Dark Flare.

    A non-ultimate stun or gap closer should NEVER have a cast time
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • MEBengalsFan2001
    MEBengalsFan2001
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    Sergykid wrote: »
    Syiccal wrote: »
    Sergykid wrote: »
    templar is in a fine spot, speaking from an unbiased objective pov. Not strong but not weak. Other classes are overtuned in some areas, but templar seems balanced.

    it only looks weaker because other classes are overtuned, not just directly the class but from other sources that affect those classes

    You need to give examples ro make a point like this

    defenses are strong, high heal, cleanse, ccs. Class offensive spells are bad, but it makes up from utility. Ranged unlockable knockback javelin, or the other morph of living dark. Support it's good spot class.
    If u want to play a solo brawler u can use non class spells effectively, even considering burning light proc, execute is wonderful as it's undodgeable and high range.
    other classes are overtuned, sorc or nb have uncoubterable combat avoidance, dk and warden combine offense and defense too good, necro is in a weaker spot for now.

    All classes have strong heals, not just templars. This is due to the fact that heals go by your highest resource and highest weapon/spell regardless the type of heal it is (magika/stamina). This is an on going issues for all classes. If you want to talk strong heal let's talk about how a DK can go from near death to full health with one heal. That specific skill morph should be a PVE only skill.

    Templars does have cleanse but it also has no way to get immunity after it cleanse itself from soft CC. Instead to remove or avoid a follow up of a soft CC the templar has to waste resources to cleanse again and again and again and again. Not all that helpful. For instance the warden can use Bird of Prey to remove soft CC and have avoidance to them for a short time and use the netch to cleanse other items.

    You mention templars have good CC but the issue is templar CC are Stun and Knockback both hard CC. The soft CC of puncture sweep/biting jabs is horrible at the moment not worth even bringing up. Right now the two best classes with soft CC are DK and Warden when in melee range making them hard for a templar to fight against as the templar either will burn through magic for its cleanse or stamina to get out of the immobilization.

    The only good things that templars have right now are its defensives abilities but those too have been adjusted to not be as good, living dark, javelin (which is decent against blocking targets and if you want to knock someone down who doesn't have CC immunity) and finally radiant glory/destruction.

    To me the issue I see with the game is it is broken in many areas and players simply use these broken game items to beat you down. The templar was in that category and is closer to where all classes should be set to in 2023. A few minor tweaks and I feel templars will be nearly perfect.



  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    I wonder what's going on that dark flare Templar's manage to cast it when there are destro and bow spammmables that interrupt, and the first cast is extra long for some reason while Templar has 0 extra mobility so easy to get in melee range. Do people not know to bash? Or is the templar zerging?
  • gariondavey
    gariondavey
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    Dekrypted wrote: »
    Posting this meme here because at the end of the day, the class is useless now.

    8zq6mbju1gp3.jpg

    Zos please fix us
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    Sergykid wrote: »
    Syiccal wrote: »
    Sergykid wrote: »
    templar is in a fine spot, speaking from an unbiased objective pov. Not strong but not weak. Other classes are overtuned in some areas, but templar seems balanced.

    it only looks weaker because other classes are overtuned, not just directly the class but from other sources that affect those classes

    You need to give examples ro make a point like this

    defenses are strong, high heal, cleanse, ccs. Class offensive spells are bad, but it makes up from utility. Ranged unlockable knockback javelin, or the other morph of living dark. Support it's good spot class.
    If u want to play a solo brawler u can use non class spells effectively, even considering burning light proc, execute is wonderful as it's undodgeable and high range.
    other classes are overtuned, sorc or nb have uncoubterable combat avoidance, dk and warden combine offense and defense too good, necro is in a weaker spot for now.

    All classes have strong heals, not just templars. This is due to the fact that heals go by your highest resource and highest weapon/spell regardless the type of heal it is (magika/stamina). This is an on going issues for all classes. If you want to talk strong heal let's talk about how a DK can go from near death to full health with one heal. That specific skill morph should be a PVE only skill.

    Templars does have cleanse but it also has no way to get immunity after it cleanse itself from soft CC. Instead to remove or avoid a follow up of a soft CC the templar has to waste resources to cleanse again and again and again and again. Not all that helpful. For instance the warden can use Bird of Prey to remove soft CC and have avoidance to them for a short time and use the netch to cleanse other items.

    You mention templars have good CC but the issue is templar CC are Stun and Knockback both hard CC. The soft CC of puncture sweep/biting jabs is horrible at the moment not worth even bringing up. Right now the two best classes with soft CC are DK and Warden when in melee range making them hard for a templar to fight against as the templar either will burn through magic for its cleanse or stamina to get out of the immobilization.

    The only good things that templars have right now are its defensives abilities but those too have been adjusted to not be as good, living dark, javelin (which is decent against blocking targets and if you want to knock someone down who doesn't have CC immunity) and finally radiant glory/destruction.

    To me the issue I see with the game is it is broken in many areas and players simply use these broken game items to beat you down. The templar was in that category and is closer to where all classes should be set to in 2023. A few minor tweaks and I feel templars will be nearly perfect.



    Well said. With other classes having equivalent burst heals, while sorcs only burst heal is tied to slotting on both bars, DK heal outperforms any heal in the game by having a modifier to low health plus easy access to major mending.
    The issue is that Templars toolkit has been slowly removed and given to other classes over the years, but templars haven't been given anything to compensate for these losses.

    So let's look at what the templar identity was that has been given to other classes for a minute.
    Healing - burst heals have been given to every class because only the templar had the OP heal, now it's either on average with other classes or underperformed.
    Burst Damage - nerfed into ground in every way possible. BL too OP, gone. Jabs too OP, useless. Dark Flare too OP, negligible. Blazing Shield too OP, reworked and now useless. PotL too OP, underperformed compared to similar abilities now. Cleanse too OP, heavily increased in cost and other classes have access or better abilities to remove soft CC. Sun Fire too OP, nerfed. Should I really go on...? Okay, Blinding Light way too OP, completely removed but accessible through sets. But Corrosive armor with hybrid changes isn't OP in the exact opposite fashion of blinding light.
    Defense - somewhat balanced, but lacking utility that other classes ALL have access to.

    If they want to remove Templar from the game, fine, just do it already. But I put hundreds of hours into mine, plus money for content I did with it. So they'll have to pay me to remove the class.
    The most frustrating thing about making Templar obsolete is just that, time put into my main. I don't have any other toons with near the amount of skill points collected, zones visited, achievements unlocked and comfortability playing with as I do my Templar.
  • MEBengalsFan2001
    MEBengalsFan2001
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    Well said. With other classes having equivalent burst heals, while sorcs only burst heal is tied to slotting on both bars, DK heal outperforms any heal in the game by having a modifier to low health plus easy access to major mending.
    The issue is that Templars toolkit has been slowly removed and given to other classes over the years, but templars haven't been given anything to compensate for these losses.

    So let's look at what the templar identity was that has been given to other classes for a minute.
    Healing - burst heals have been given to every class because only the templar had the OP heal, now it's either on average with other classes or underperformed.
    Burst Damage - nerfed into ground in every way possible. BL too OP, gone. Jabs too OP, useless. Dark Flare too OP, negligible. Blazing Shield too OP, reworked and now useless. PotL too OP, underperformed compared to similar abilities now. Cleanse too OP, heavily increased in cost and other classes have access or better abilities to remove soft CC. Sun Fire too OP, nerfed. Should I really go on...? Okay, Blinding Light way too OP, completely removed but accessible through sets. But Corrosive armor with hybrid changes isn't OP in the exact opposite fashion of blinding light.
    Defense - somewhat balanced, but lacking utility that other classes ALL have access to.

    If they want to remove Templar from the game, fine, just do it already. But I put hundreds of hours into mine, plus money for content I did with it. So they'll have to pay me to remove the class.
    The most frustrating thing about making Templar obsolete is just that, time put into my main. I don't have any other toons with near the amount of skill points collected, zones visited, achievements unlocked and comfortability playing with as I do my Templar.

    I was running one debuffing set and one buffing set. To match that damage I now have to run two offensive pure damage dealing sets that has made my character squishy.

    My other characters I have setup for PVP are also running two offensive sets but do not die as fast because they better defensive tools and heals along with abilities that allow them to quickly turn the tide of any battle. I don't use my other characters other than to get to tier 1 for the transmutes.

    My Templar is back to where is he damage wise but I have no survivability now due to a lack of some tools to be more effective.

    My biggest issue right now is fighting NB. I love how they can go invisible right in front of me after using radiant magelight to expose them. I mean they are not suppose to be able to go stealth or invisible for 4 seconds but in less than second they all go invisible, this should include potions. There are other things that are broken on a NB currently making them stronger than they should be presently. Did some testing on mine and I'm like really. Can't play a broken OP class.

    I like playing my templar still. Why, because I like a challenge and being able to get a kill against other using broken overpowered classes with an inferior class is more rewarding.

    On a scale of 1-10 for my current templar build it is about a 6 but I die so much easier now.

    Edited by MEBengalsFan2001 on December 13, 2022 10:08PM
  • Theignson
    Theignson
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    Templars were completely trashed in PvP. They have no damage. Just compare them to NB. Are different classes supposed to have similar chances and damage, or is it a deliberate choice to make Templar have the worst Offense? This is what I am wondering.

    I've tried various setups. But you have stage 3-4 NB, and a DB only hits them for 5k, yet they turn around and hit you with a 10-15k assassins' will and 15k Incap.

    Or look at pathetic Templar ulti-- sweep-- NB surprise attack or concealed weapon does more damage.

    Many things are completely messed up in the game.
    Quakrson, Stam DK, Grand Overlord
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    All EP/ PC NA
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    Theignson wrote: »
    Templars were completely trashed in PvP. They have no damage. Just compare them to NB. Are different classes supposed to have similar chances and damage, or is it a deliberate choice to make Templar have the worst Offense? This is what I am wondering.

    I've tried various setups. But you have stage 3-4 NB, and a DB only hits them for 5k, yet they turn around and hit you with a 10-15k assassins' will and 15k Incap.

    Or look at pathetic Templar ulti-- sweep-- NB surprise attack or concealed weapon does more damage.

    Many things are completely messed up in the game.

    Agreed with everything you posted. However, Sweeps is actually in-line with Incap, being an AOE over ST. I do agree with the DB situation, because I see that with ALL my toons. DB is garbage now - this is heavily due to the mythics and easy accessibility to DPS/tank builds.

    Comparing outside of NB, my Stamsorc is pretty much in-line with what my Templar used to be. High burst potential, decent mobility and decent defense but with trash heals.
    My DK, well just shreds...(I don't have any mythics) Obviously over tuned class at the moment. Minor tweaks are needed, but instead of a nerf to DK, ZOS should bring other classes in-line with the DK's can-do-all-literally playstyle.
    OR, they just go back to having Class identity and roles.

    It just really painfully saddens me that I put 5 years of very, very enjoyable playtime into my Stamplar. I leave for two years because of performance issues, come back and the one class I go to for enjoyment in PVP is shelved in Davy Jones' locker.
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    My DK, well just shreds...(I don't have any mythics) Obviously over tuned class at the moment. Minor tweaks are needed, but instead of a nerf to DK, ZOS should bring other classes in-line with the DK's can-do-all-literally playstyle.
    OR, they just go back to having Class identity roles

    I would hope for the latter only because I personally have never enjoyed dk and dk can't even do ranged builds compared to just about all the other classes. Dk is bonkers right now for multiple reasons, same with nb.

    Plar? Hot garbage
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Sergykid
    Sergykid
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    sure it's weaker and needs some of the nerfs reverted, but it's not as bad as y'all describe it.
    i and some other high rank players do fine with it in high mmr bgs, there's videos with it too
    what's worse is that u have to drop some "templar"in favor for some "other skill lines"
    -PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    Sergykid wrote: »
    sure it's weaker and needs some of the nerfs reverted, but it's not as bad as y'all describe it.
    i and some other high rank players do fine with it in high mmr bgs, there's videos with it too
    what's worse is that u have to drop some "templar"in favor for some "other skill lines"

    Running dark flare, meteor and J beam isn't how we want to play plar. Especially for stamplar mains.
    Stamplar had its own identity, now we're being forced into the Dswing setup just to keep our stamplar off the mule shelf.

    It really is as bad as we're saying.
  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    As I've said before; it's ironic that the complaint was Templar's were too strong based around Jabs to really being reduced to Radiant oppression even more dependent.
  • ketsparrowhawk
    ketsparrowhawk
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    Sergykid wrote: »
    sure it's weaker and needs some of the nerfs reverted, but it's not as bad as y'all describe it.
    i and some other high rank players do fine with it in high mmr bgs, there's videos with it too
    what's worse is that u have to drop some "templar"in favor for some "other skill lines"

    I agree with this statement. I've been a StamPlar PvP main since Summerset. The recent nerfs hurt pretty bad and I hope to see some corrections in 2023. But I've managed to salvage my build and perform competitively without using any of the cheese that many 'plars are crutching on lately, and it still using mostly class abilities. She ain't what she used to be but she's certainly not useless:

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=488398
  • ketsparrowhawk
    ketsparrowhawk
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    My wishlist:

    Nerf beam and give that power back to POTL. Add Major Breach as well.

    Buff Solar Barrage now that Empower no longer works in PvP.

    Add 4 seconds of Snare Removal to Cleansing Ritual.

    Make Major Evasion available within the class toolkit.
  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    My wishlist:

    Nerf beam and give that power back to POTL. Add Major Breach as well.

    Buff Solar Barrage now that Empower no longer works in PvP.

    Add 4 seconds of Snare Removal to Cleansing Ritual.

    Make Major Evasion available within the class toolkit.

    I like the idea here but I think POTL is just broken but major breach would be welcome. Would love snare immunity on both morphs. The other 2 would just be nice in so every to make some unused abilities worth considering at least
  • Neoauspex
    Neoauspex
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    I was just looking through Templar skills and saw Purifying Light and I just started laughing, that skill has ZERO reason to exist.
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Neoauspex wrote: »
    I was just looking through Templar skills and saw Purifying Light and I just started laughing, that skill has ZERO reason to exist.

    I've been told it shouldn't be close to other class burst abilities. Would be nice to find out why the skill is where it's at right now.
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Sergykid
    Sergykid
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    axi wrote: »
    Sergykid wrote: »
    sure it's weaker and needs some of the nerfs reverted, but it's not as bad as y'all describe it.
    i and some other high rank players do fine with it in high mmr bgs, there's videos with it too
    what's worse is that u have to drop some "templar"in favor for some "other skill lines"

    Wait aren't You playing templar that spends majority of his defense in mist form and than just spams javelin+beam plus some reflective light for the rest of BG while standing behind his team? If yes than this comment above is really ironic as this is excatly what many of people here is complaining about, that templar was pushed into braindead playstyle which while effective is super boring and borderline insultive for the game balance. Many people would gladly see Your playstyle completly gone just for the sake of having something more dynamic that rewards skill input rather than relying on cheesy game mechanics.

    yes i use mistform as my main defense, but could use class bubble and would be just as good if not better, accusing braindead playstyle cuz of it it's just wrong.
    and i dont spam "javelin+beam", i have proper spammable. 99% of my bgs are most kills lowest to 0 deaths.

    i don't "hide behind team" i am mostly solo player and that's the point of my build to 1vX, u can see my video on youtube from last month and see from my pov, from outside it may look like braindead pillar mistform but nothing is what it may look like
    -PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube
  • axi
    axi
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    Sergykid wrote: »
    axi wrote: »
    Sergykid wrote: »
    sure it's weaker and needs some of the nerfs reverted, but it's not as bad as y'all describe it.
    i and some other high rank players do fine with it in high mmr bgs, there's videos with it too
    what's worse is that u have to drop some "templar"in favor for some "other skill lines"

    Wait aren't You playing templar that spends majority of his defense in mist form and than just spams javelin+beam plus some reflective light for the rest of BG while standing behind his team? If yes than this comment above is really ironic as this is excatly what many of people here is complaining about, that templar was pushed into braindead playstyle which while effective is super boring and borderline insultive for the game balance. Many people would gladly see Your playstyle completly gone just for the sake of having something more dynamic that rewards skill input rather than relying on cheesy game mechanics.

    yes i use mistform as my main defense, but could use class bubble and would be just as good if not better, accusing braindead playstyle cuz of it it's just wrong.
    and i dont spam "javelin+beam", i have proper spammable. 99% of my bgs are most kills lowest to 0 deaths.

    i don't "hide behind team" i am mostly solo player and that's the point of my build to 1vX, u can see my video on youtube from last month and see from my pov, from outside it may look like braindead pillar mistform but nothing is what it may look like

    I did not accuse You of anything neither did I said playstyle is breaidead just because of mist alone.

    I watched that video. It's even worse than I thought. Resto ult and bubble set. And 34k HP, without warden buff... Really no reason to brag about low deaths and high kills. I was also getting high amounts of kills and low amounts of deaths with javelin+beam without building as much defense as You (no mist, no resto, no bubble). That playstyle is cheesy and also very boring. I stopped playing it after like 5-6 matches because how boring yet super effective it was. Yeah it's nice to get like 10-15+/0 KD even in high MMR but it really starts to feel unrewarding pretty quick. Mist+honor the dead is one of the biggest defensive crutches that ESO have atm due to HtD restoring resources while in mist on top of chanelled focus already making mist way easier to maintain. It's kinda silly that after like 7 seconds of continuosly sitting in mist You exited it with more magicka than You had when entering it. With setup like that If You dont want to die You just don't die and to get kills You dont even need to build that much dmg because javelin+beam will carry the day as long as other abilities can take like 50% of enemy's health which isn't hard because people usually don't defend their higher percentages as much as they defend their lower ones when javelin+beam perfectly counters that lower health defense since one is unblockable and seconds is undodgable. And please don't even fool Yourself You would get similar or even better results with a living dark instead of mist.
    Edited by axi on December 21, 2022 11:32AM
  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    I watched @Sergykid video and he does fine. It's how I expect a player outnumbered to play. Is he in the back sometimes? Sure; but he is a ranged build so you should use that advantage. Thats not much difference to how classic magsorcs would play before, he's just using mist form over streak/BOL and taking advantage of having the better heal, ranged CC, and execute.

    Its not the norm though. Most I see are just standing behind a zerg just spamming RO. It's the same people who just spammed jabs before and they are just not as forward to easily deal with. And it looks more like a holy sorc than a holy warrior many of us think of templar as being.
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Still hoping and praying that Zos will do the right thing and just fix backlash. It's been a rough patch and another patch like this will do nothing but hemorrhage more players who play the class.

    (Bump)
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
  • Dekrypted
    Dekrypted
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    Circling back to not let this thread die.

    I suspect that the PTS is right around the corner. Hopefully it contains the needed fix to backlash and it's respective morphs
    PC NA
    March 2014 - December 2023
    No longer active

    Templar Main
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