Why no crafting surveys in Cyrodiil?

Dr_Con

Honest question.

edit: after a page's worth of feedback, here is what I have come up with.

Formal suggestion:
Seed Cyrodiil crafting surveys into Rewards for the Worthy, town dailies, and IC daily rewards with the next Cyro/IC PVP event.

that way it doesn't clutter the inventory of people who only want to run crafting surveys in non-PVP zones, and so that people who are running the town dailies get surveys within a reasonable distance from the town they are running quests from. Additionally, by rolling it out as an event reward the success will be the same as if it was implemented with a major patch, but the failure of the attempt can be easily mitigated by virtue of it being an event reward

Start off by limiting the surveys to being around home keeps/outposts

this is to limit the amount of travel people have to do, and effort to reach a survey spot

Explore the idea of awarding extra surveys around hostile keeps that your faction has captured

this is to incentivize harvesting after capturing a hostile keep, opening the door for skirmishes, and disincentivizes backdooring of keeps and outposts as your rewards will be in areas that you don't have a direct path to travel to

Reassess the implementation after an event's worth of feedback, then use this data to decide if you want to continue having them as rewards

Economic impact should be considered as well as how many of the surveys were run per drop as well as drop rate from Rewards for the Worthy. Issues or improvements with server performance should be disclosed to the community, and if it is deemed a success then continue to reward them past the event

kargen27

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Hapexamendios

It's just too damn big. Areas like Northern Elsweyr are bad enough. Wouldn't want surveys in an area with no reliable fast travel. If your alliances castles aren't connected for example, you could be in for a very long ride.

Amottica

Why would we want them to be in Cyrodiil?

deleted221106-002999

Bored players would hang out at the survey map locations to grief welcome pvers.

Dr_Con

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

aussie500

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

Because most people, especially the crafters getting the surveys are not PVP players, ZOS is not going to force people to enter a PVP area just to get a survey.

redspecter23

With the queue and long ride out to the location, it would be a net loss to do these in small numbers. You'd be better off just plucking normal nodes in a zone you can wayshrine to instead. You'd need a serious stack of them to consider it being worth the time to bother. Add to this the potential for pvp'ers to basically have a nice giant X on the map that they know pve'ers will be at and it's more a hindrance than a help.

Cazador

Unless there was additional incentive to do them they would go to waste. Why would someone ride halfway across the map for 80 rubedite when they can get the same amount with significantly less potential difficulty and for less time in any other zone?

Amottica

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

It seems very clear they are suggesting that some people would not go into Cyrodiil to do a survey.

Also, your question had nothing to do with an additional survey dropping.

Even then it is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose that is good for the game to add yet another stack of surveys to our inventory.

Dr_Con

Amottica wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

It seems very clear they are suggesting that some people would not go into Cyrodiil to do a survey.

Also, your question had nothing to do with an additional survey dropping.

Even then it is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose that is good for the game to add yet another stack of surveys to our inventory.

If they won't go to Cyrodiil, they can just delete them. People still buy and run Cyrodiil treasure maps despite the rewards not being good. People still run enchanting surveys despite them being worthless for the sake of exploring. There are a lot of crafting nodes here already, it doesn't make sense for surveys to not be present. If anything, the alchemy surveys should also contain more fungi as it's a battlefield.

Dr_Con

aussie500 wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

Because most people, especially the crafters getting the surveys are not PVP players, ZOS is not going to force people to enter a PVP area just to get a survey.

Where did you get the idea in your head that PVPers don't craft?

You do realize that all the stuff you do for writs goes to the war effort right? You know, the war in Cyrodiil. Why wouldn't they be sending survey locations back when the goods get delivered?

Jaraal

Amottica wrote: »

Why would we want them to be in Cyrodiil?

Exactly. The population cap has dropped from hundreds to 70-80ish per faction over the years, due to performance deterioration. And of that number, at least 1/3 or more are just there for base training skill points, PvE quests, fishing, mat harvesting, skyshards, or dolmen achievements.

We don’t need more reasons to water down the combat experience.

Dr_Con

Jaraal wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Why would we want them to be in Cyrodiil?

Exactly. The population cap has dropped from hundreds to 70-80ish per faction over the years, due to performance deterioration. And of that number, at least 1/3 or more are just there for base training skill points, PvE quests, fishing, mat harvesting, skyshards, or dolmen achievements.

We don’t need more reasons to water down the combat experience.

Performance is dropping due to infinite heal/dot/debuff/buff stacking, overheal procs, and a multitude of other reasons. People are lagging with lower populations. If anything, independent survey hunters decrease the server load at max cap by not being part of that and engaging in other open-world activities that don't include having 50 heals stacked on them, but let's not pretend that people running quests in towns or crafting nodes are in any way responsible for lag in Cyrodiil.

Here are all the crafting nodes and treasure chests in Cyrodiil



There's a plethora of resources here but no concentration of them in survey locations, this makes no logical sense.

SilverIce58

Here's a better question. Why do you want/need people going into Cyrodiil to complain about having to go into Cyro, and adding nothing to the pvp experience?

Dr_Con

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Here's a better question. Why do you want/need people going into Cyrodiil to complain about having to go into Cyro, and adding nothing to the pvp experience?

I don't need people going to Cyrodiil for anything. If people are going to complain about getting something extra, then it's in their nature to complain no matter what. Now I can expect some of the responses this topic is receiving if Imperial City was questioned, but Cyrodiil? My question was simple, why are there no surveys in Cyrodiil. It makes sense for them to be here, but they aren't. It seems like an oversight if anything. There's also no surveys in the Gold Coast or Hew's Bane but I figured that'd be a topic for another day, as they too seem like an oversight, or perhaps it can be explained away as having too few wayshrines in a zone = no surveys allowed, but in Cyrodiil you can have surveys located near your faction's keeps depending on the character's alliance/alignment of who turned in the writ, so it's less of an issue than having to run across the map like some are worrying about.

Amottica

Dr_Con wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

It seems very clear they are suggesting that some people would not go into Cyrodiil to do a survey.

Also, your question had nothing to do with an additional survey dropping.

Even then it is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose that is good for the game to add yet another stack of surveys to our inventory.

If they won't go to Cyrodiil, they can just delete them.

Interesting as that is exactly what the person you replied to was suggesting.

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Here's a better question. Why do you want/need people going into Cyrodiil to complain about having to go into Cyro, and adding nothing to the pvp experience?

Exactly. It is why I first asked why we would want them in Cyrodiil. There is no benefit to the game as a whole and most certainly not a benefit to Cyrodiil. Both would be requirements for this to happen.

whitecrow

Chests are worthwhile because they contain set pieces. I don't think I would bother going to Cyrodiil just to collect some materials I could get anywhere.

SilverIce58

Dr_Con wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Here's a better question. Why do you want/need people going into Cyrodiil to complain about having to go into Cyro, and adding nothing to the pvp experience?

I don't need people going to Cyrodiil for anything. If people are going to complain about getting something extra, then it's in their nature to complain no matter what. Now I can expect some of the responses this topic is receiving if Imperial City was questioned, but Cyrodiil? My question was simple, why are there no surveys in Cyrodiil. It makes sense for them to be here, but they aren't. It seems like an oversight if anything. There's also no surveys in the Gold Coast or Hew's Bane but I figured that'd be a topic for another day, as they too seem like an oversight, or perhaps it can be explained away as having too few wayshrines in a zone = no surveys allowed, but in Cyrodiil you can have surveys located near your faction's keeps depending on the character's alliance/alignment of who turned in the writ, so it's less of an issue than having to run across the map like some are worrying about.

Its the same reason that the summonable bankers and merchants won't go to Cyro. Because it's a war-zone. Sure other zones have certain events happening, but its all manageable pve content. Imagine the outcry from pvpers that can't go into Cyro (those that still want to) because the campaigns are full of crafters doing surveys for hours. Besides, they're not adding anything into Cyrodiil for the time being besides events, so its really a moot point.

People gave you reasons why, and now it seems like you don't want to accept those reasons.

Dr_Con

Amottica wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

It seems very clear they are suggesting that some people would not go into Cyrodiil to do a survey.

Also, your question had nothing to do with an additional survey dropping.

Even then it is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose that is good for the game to add yet another stack of surveys to our inventory.

If they won't go to Cyrodiil, they can just delete them.

Interesting as that is exactly what the person you replied to was suggesting.

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Here's a better question. Why do you want/need people going into Cyrodiil to complain about having to go into Cyro, and adding nothing to the pvp experience?

Exactly. It is why I first asked why we would want them in Cyrodiil. There is no benefit to the game as a whole and most certainly not a benefit to Cyrodiil. Both would be requirements for this to happen.

As a comparison, I see no benefit to enchanting surveys, so I destroy them. I don't complain that they are in the game, I simply indifferent to them. Whenever I get the chance, I let people know that they're worth about 3k each, and the time to run them is not worth the time you can be doing something else. The same could not be said for JC or clothier nodes in Cyrodiil.

Additionally, surveys in Cyrodiil would have a chance of Mourning Dew dropping just as Aetherial Dust has a chance off surveys in other zones. These are natural incentives to run the surveys in Cyrodiil. Now could they explore this as an additional reward in the Rewards for the Worthy boxes? Sure. Cyrodiil wouldn't have all those resource nodes if they didn't want people harvesting there... In reality this just seems like an oversight.

Amottica

Dr_Con wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

It seems very clear they are suggesting that some people would not go into Cyrodiil to do a survey.

Also, your question had nothing to do with an additional survey dropping.

Even then it is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose that is good for the game to add yet another stack of surveys to our inventory.

If they won't go to Cyrodiil, they can just delete them.

Interesting as that is exactly what the person you replied to was suggesting.

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Here's a better question. Why do you want/need people going into Cyrodiil to complain about having to go into Cyro, and adding nothing to the pvp experience?

Exactly. It is why I first asked why we would want them in Cyrodiil. There is no benefit to the game as a whole and most certainly not a benefit to Cyrodiil. Both would be requirements for this to happen.

As a comparison, I see no benefit to enchanting surveys, so I destroy them.

This is not a valid comparison. While it is about surveys it is about very different aspects of the surveys.

Why not try to put in a valid suggestion so that Zenimax might actually look at the thread and suggestion? As it is the overly broad question has no content to get the attention of Zenimax.

Good luck with that. And as far as this thread. We answered your question in a very thorough and accurate manner and respect that you ahve an opinion that differs from how things actually are. Have a good day.

Dr_Con

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Here's a better question. Why do you want/need people going into Cyrodiil to complain about having to go into Cyro, and adding nothing to the pvp experience?

I don't need people going to Cyrodiil for anything. If people are going to complain about getting something extra, then it's in their nature to complain no matter what. Now I can expect some of the responses this topic is receiving if Imperial City was questioned, but Cyrodiil? My question was simple, why are there no surveys in Cyrodiil. It makes sense for them to be here, but they aren't. It seems like an oversight if anything. There's also no surveys in the Gold Coast or Hew's Bane but I figured that'd be a topic for another day, as they too seem like an oversight, or perhaps it can be explained away as having too few wayshrines in a zone = no surveys allowed, but in Cyrodiil you can have surveys located near your faction's keeps depending on the character's alliance/alignment of who turned in the writ, so it's less of an issue than having to run across the map like some are worrying about.

Its the same reason that the summonable bankers and merchants won't go to Cyro. Because it's a war-zone. Sure other zones have certain events happening, but its all manageable pve content. Imagine the outcry from pvpers that can't go into Cyro (those that still want to) because the campaigns are full of crafters doing surveys for hours. Besides, they're not adding anything into Cyrodiil for the time being besides events, so its really a moot point.

People gave you reasons why, and now it seems like you don't want to accept those reasons.

You do realize that people are in Cyrodiil farming Colovian War Torte recipes right? They do this both as solos and in pub groups, I've seen people looting it when there's a lull in activity. People fight at resource node locations believe it or not, they can fight at survey locations as well.

The griefing argument is simple though, there's multiple campaigns and it's doubtful someone would follow you to other ones, but in reality you just need to let people of your faction know that there's people in a certain location and you'll get backup if you're solo. Someone's complaint could be a source of zone chat intel.

kargen27

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

By abandoned I mean deleted. People would not bother doing them.

It would be a problem because they wouldn't be in addition to other surveys so much as instead of other surveys. All it would do is add more locations to the drop pool. If they were added they aren't going to be placed in areas more convenient than surveys in other zones. They are going to be scattered just like every other zone.

I doubt the PvP crowd would camp spawn points or harass players doing the surveys. They won't go looking for a player just doing surveys. But if you cross paths good chance you might get a thumpin'.

There is no upside to adding surveys in Cyrodiil and some obvious downsides already mentioned.

Maybe there are no clusters in Cyrodiil because the NPCs are quick to harvest clusters for the war effort? Maybe all those battles made the ground less hospitable for plants and the mines other than a few scraps have become deprived of ore?

"If people are going to complain about getting something extra"

It wouldn't be extra. It would be instead of.

SilverIce58

kargen27 wrote: »

"If people are going to complain about getting something extra"

It wouldn't be extra. It would be instead of.

It'd be extra work if anything, which nobody except one person wants looks like.

Indigogo

They should drop as a bonus addition from rewards of the worthy. I'd love that.

SilverIce58

Indigogo wrote: »

They should drop as a bonus addition from rewards of the worthy. I'd love that.

That's not a bad idea. That way only pvpers would get them. Wow what an easy and smart solution.

Four_Fingers

Just add crafting writ boards at the home base crafting areas in Cyro and only have the surveys drop from writs from that board. Add a writ turn in station in home base and I never have to leave Cyro to do crafting dailies.

Dr_Con

kargen27 wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I'm guessing they would mostly be abandoned. Map is huge and always a chance, even if a small chance, of getting jumped by another player. Players already complain about special events or endeavors that require going to Cyrodiil. Surveys would really set them off.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "Abandoned"?

Why would it be a problem if the surveys were dropped in addition to other surveys? These may be the most utilized surveys in the game depending on where they are placed.

By abandoned I mean deleted. People would not bother doing them.

It would be a problem because they wouldn't be in addition to other surveys so much as instead of other surveys. All it would do is add more locations to the drop pool. If they were added they aren't going to be placed in areas more convenient than surveys in other zones. They are going to be scattered just like every other zone.

I doubt the PvP crowd would camp spawn points or harass players doing the surveys. They won't go looking for a player just doing surveys. But if you cross paths good chance you might get a thumpin'.

There is no upside to adding surveys in Cyrodiil and some obvious downsides already mentioned.

Maybe there are no clusters in Cyrodiil because the NPCs are quick to harvest clusters for the war effort? Maybe all those battles made the ground less hospitable for plants and the mines other than a few scraps have become deprived of ore?

"If people are going to complain about getting something extra"

It wouldn't be extra. It would be instead of.

I agree with a lot of your reasoning, specifically with abandoned = deleting. But in looking at the survey map I don't agree that the zone is short on resources at all, I did a round in Blackreach and didn't have to go more than 5 seconds before finding a new node to harvest, I even got Psijic portals to spawn frequently and got an Imperial motif book out of one.

Even with the harvest map add-on turned off and just using my character's natural skills, there are resources where you expect them to be (i.e. blacksmithing/JC along rocks, mushrooms at base of trees, herbs in the field, enchanting runes around Ayelid ruins or places of magical energy- such as near the Elder Scroll temples, heavy sacks around camps). A lot of thought went into placing these nodes and I appreciate that. But when I say this would be something extra, rather than an instead of, that is part of the core suggestion, as the character receiving the survey would have an independent chance from the other surveys to get this depending on the faction they are assigned to. ex, if you are Ebonheart Pact, you will only ever get Clothier Survey I, Blacksmithing Survey I, Alchemy Survey I, etc, while an AD character would only ever get Clothier Survey II, Blacksmithing II, and so on.

I realize this would mean that certain people who have crafting characters from all different factions would have to go all over the map, which I don't subjectively see a problem with, but objectively I can see why people wouldn't like it, which is why a chance of getting these from Rewards for the Worthy in addition to random chance of transmutes and gear would be a great way to seed these into the game. I'll admit at the beginning of the topic I didn't have this in mind, but after some feedback that's what the logical course seems to be.

Formal suggestion:
Seed Cyrodiil crafting surveys into Rewards for the Worthy, town dailies, and IC daily rewards with the next Cyro/IC PVP event.

that way it doesn't clutter the inventory of people who only want to run crafting surveys in non-PVP zones, and so that people who are running the town dailies get surveys within a reasonable distance from the town they are running quests from. Additionally, by rolling it out as an event reward the success will be the same as if it was implemented with a major patch, but the failure of the attempt can be easily mitigated by virtue of it being an event reward

Start off by limiting the surveys to being around home keeps/outposts

this is to limit the amount of travel people have to do, and effort to reach a survey spot

Explore the idea of awarding extra surveys around hostile keeps that your faction has captured

this is to incentivize harvesting after capturing a hostile keep, opening the door for skirmishes, and disincentivizes backdooring of keeps and outposts as your rewards will be in areas that you don't have a direct path to travel to

Reassess the implementation after an event's worth of feedback, then use this data to decide if you want to continue having them as rewards

Economic impact should be considered as well as how many of the surveys were run per drop as well as drop rate from Rewards for the Worthy. Issues or improvements with server performance should be disclosed to the community, and if it is deemed a success then continue to reward them past the event

bmnoble

3 main issues I see are the distances involved especially if your faction is not in control of the map, the queue times to get in and the fear of losing the mats of the survey your in the process of harvesting due to someone coming along and killing you, especially since survey sites are fixed, some bored PVP ganker can wait around one of the locations to kill someone that shows up.

Dr_Con

bmnoble wrote: »

3 main issues I see are the distances involved especially if your faction is not in control of the map, the queue times to get in and the fear of losing the mats of the survey your in the process of harvesting due to someone coming along and killing you, especially since survey sites are fixed, some bored PVP ganker can wait around one of the locations to kill someone that shows up.

So I burned a Woodworking survey in testing this, I found that if you harvest 3/6 of the nodes, run off somewhere and die, and return, you'll still have 3/6 woodworking nodes left despite the survey being consumed. This means you can return and finish off the nodes once it's started

however if you do a session change (i did log in/out) it will not be there when you return.

My solution to this: use the sentry set before you start harvesting to see if anyone is stealthed near you if you are risk averse.



jewels frequently go for around 7k, weapons and the medium body pieces are also inexpensive. this reveals everyone who is stealthed around you who is in render distance and is woefully underutilized, you can get it from Bruma dailies (also chorrol/cheydinhal) or guild merchants.

Alternatively, you can pretend to start harvesting (as the enemy would not see your nodes or see your harvest animation, they only see you move/stop) and try to bait them out. Only when you harvest a node, does the survey get consumed.

As for the queue times, there are less populated zones as well as a sub-50 campaign you can bank transfer the survey to (for ideal mats, this alt would need to level their crafting). I do not think you would be able to switch campaigns and finish the survey... but this is a simple matter of risk vs reward payoff, and countermeasures already exist.

edit: another alternative is to just deal with it, come prepared to the harvest location and be ready for a fight. It adds thrill to harvesting with the risk of someone being there to gank, and for you to counter-gank.

Amottica

bmnoble wrote: »

3 main issues I see are the distances involved especially if your faction is not in control of the map, the queue times to get in and the fear of losing the mats of the survey your in the process of harvesting due to someone coming along and killing you, especially since survey sites are fixed, some bored PVP ganker can wait around one of the locations to kill someone that shows up.

Those are good points all around. The distance to travel is one of the biggest issues making it an unreasonable chore for something that is generally a quick trip. Since an unpolluted campaign would be the most desirable, it is a dice role as to which alliance has most of the keeps and one of the biggest negative aspects as to why this will never be considered.

The forced risk of PvP for something completely irrelevant to PvP is the other valid point. This is not a PvP event after all.

Thanks for bringing up more solid points as to why this will never happen. Getting players to wear a specific set is certainly not a solution. Even, 10 seconds of stealth detection is hardly going to keep a player safe.