Class Balance in PvP

MurkyWetWolf198

From personal anecdote, I'd say that Dragonknights, Nightblades and maybe Necromancers(?) are solid this patch. But I'm not sure on that. Some say Wardens (stam at least) are good, but I haven't gotten a consensus on that.
I've heard MagSorc is quite rough, and I don't see many non-healer Templars anymore.
So, 3 questions;
What classes and comps are actually strong right now?
Why are they strong?
Why are the others weak?
What needs to change for the sake of balance (nerfs/buffs and where)?

Melzo

Nb and stam sorcerer are the strongest classes in the game. Nb has the strongest burst damage on a solo target. Don't be surprised when the NB comes with 33 hp and will crit from a bow for 17, fighting face to face, killing you for his combo... And at the same time, he has very high defense and self-healing and escape...
in 1st place nb.
2 sorcerer. It can also be overclocked to 32-33k hp and has crazy damage and mobility. Shoots from his bow like a machine gun and at the same time has great speed. The 45 percent speed boost and teleportation make the sorcerer immortal in expert hands.

It is difficult to determine whether the 3rd place is warden or DK. In the latest patch, dk was nerfed and warden buffed. Warden received a significant burst of damage in pvp and self-healing, and the dk was initially strong but became weaker due to the reduction in whip damage and weak dot damage. But I would vote for the warden.

Templar has 5th place. Templar has the best healing and defense in the game apart from teleportation and invisibility. This class has too much healing. If the templar is a vampire with a cloud, then this guy cannot be killed, but due to the nerf of the main ability spam and the passive skill, this class has become weaker in damage and many switched to ranged combat. In ranged combat, allowed the class to catch up on damage. This class kills only for its dibile finishing move that does too much damage and burst combos through the ultimate and spears that break through the block. I gave 5 places due to weak damage in general. If damage is returned, I would put it in 1st or 2nd place. The most enduring class.

Necromancer 6th place. The main benefit of the class is the AoE burst combo. It shows itself well in Cyrodiil and poorly in non-cp locations. The absence of proc sets in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, as well as low damage without emergency, makes it harder to kill someone. In battle against strong opponents, it has no advantages. Especially against players with high armor and crit resistance and Major Evasion. Players with these conditions are not killed for procasts and after your fail you are immediately punished. The last patch nerfed the spirit and now the necromancer has better self-healing than the sorcerer. No matter how stupid it sounds, all classes except the sorcerer have more healed than the necromancer. Unless you put a bunch of abilities on the self-heal bar.

Necromancer has a significant impact on Cyrodiil due to high burst damage. As part of Cyrodiil, I would give him 3rd place if you have a good ping and you play during a large number of players in the company. Not everyone lives across the street from the zenimax server.

My conclusions:
1 nb,
2 sorcerer,
3 Warden (cyrodiil - necromancer),
4 dk,
5 templar,
6 necromancer

IZZEFlameLash

Melzo wrote: »

Nb and stam sorcerer are the strongest classes in the game. Nb has the strongest burst damage on a solo target. Don't be surprised when the NB comes with 33 hp and will crit from a bow for 17, fighting face to face, killing you for his combo... And at the same time, he has very high defense and self-healing and escape...
in 1st place nb.
2 sorcerer. It can also be overclocked to 32-33k hp and has crazy damage and mobility. Shoots from his bow like a machine gun and at the same time has great speed. The 45 percent speed boost and teleportation make the sorcerer immortal in expert hands.

It is difficult to determine whether the 3rd place is warden or DK. In the latest patch, dk was nerfed and warden buffed. Warden received a significant burst of damage in pvp and self-healing, and the dk was initially strong but became weaker due to the reduction in whip damage and weak dot damage. But I would vote for the warden.

Templar has 5th place. Templar has the best healing and defense in the game apart from teleportation and invisibility. This class has too much healing. If the templar is a vampire with a cloud, then this guy cannot be killed, but due to the nerf of the main ability spam and the passive skill, this class has become weaker in damage and many switched to ranged combat. In ranged combat, allowed the class to catch up on damage. This class kills only for its dibile finishing move that does too much damage and burst combos through the ultimate and spears that break through the block. I gave 5 places due to weak damage in general. If damage is returned, I would put it in 1st or 2nd place. The most enduring class.

Necromancer 6th place. The main benefit of the class is the AoE burst combo. It shows itself well in Cyrodiil and poorly in non-cp locations. The absence of proc sets in Cyrodiil and the Imperial City, as well as low damage without emergency, makes it harder to kill someone. In battle against strong opponents, it has no advantages. Especially against players with high armor and crit resistance and Major Evasion. Players with these conditions are not killed for procasts and after your fail you are immediately punished. The last patch nerfed the spirit and now the necromancer has better self-healing than the sorcerer. No matter how stupid it sounds, all classes except the sorcerer have more healed than the necromancer. Unless you put a bunch of abilities on the self-heal bar.

Necromancer has a significant impact on Cyrodiil due to high burst damage. As part of Cyrodiil, I would give him 3rd place if you have a good ping and you play during a large number of players in the company. Not everyone lives across the street from the zenimax server.

My conclusions:
1 nb,
2 sorcerer,
3 Warden (cyrodiil - necromancer),
4 dk,
5 templar,
6 necromancer

I think I can agree to this for the most part. But I think Stamden probably would be #2 and Stam Sorc #3-4. Magicka variant of them would be... bottom. Templar definitely doesn't feel as strong as before even against my off-meta dk buils or any other.

Lughlongarm

Many content creators playing Stamden this patch, claiming its top tier.

OBJnoob

Stamden is very strong. And the way I play mine its super hybridy I don't see how magden wouldn't be strong too. All the good skills are magic.

Turtle_Bot

The list will depend on what type of pvp you are talking about.

For solo/small scale pvp:
1. Stamden/hybrid blade, stamden is a top tier class with strong AoE burst and good pressure, alongside decent mobility and a very strong defensive kit with strong healing and utility. Hybrid blade takes the best parts of both stamblade and magblade and combines them into a terrifyingly strong spec for this patch.
2. NB, mag/stam, both are still really strong but fall just slightly behind hybrid blade due to focusing on 1 aspect of the class instead of combining everything)
3. dk/rangeplar/stamsorc, dk still has very strong healing and mitigation and a good amount of pressure to non maras users alongside some of the best ultimates in the game, rangeplar has always been decent but got bumped up a tier with the changes to the class in U35, stamsorc has only recently been figured out in the past week so is a new addition to this spot, it used to sit alongside stamcro/stamplar
4. magcro/magplar, magcro is only this high due to the convergence colossus combo, but it is still an insanely strong combo, outside of this build it struggles for damage though and would otherwise sit lower on the list alongside stamcro/stamplar, magplar is still decent and is the better option for range plar builds thanks to the minor sorcery passive
5. stamplar/stamcro, losing jabs hurt, but flurry/morphs are currently very strong alongside the top tier dual wield passives and is essentially a 1 for 1 replacement for jabs on melee stamplar. Only reason stamcro isn't last is because it still has a strong defensive kit, plenty of utility and can utilise the much stronger stamina weapons much more effectively than last place can
6. magsorc, this class is nonexistent outside of no proc/no cp for this list where the speed of streak is much more effective due to the lack of free movement speed from CP. It is heavily outperformed in its ranged dps niche by rangeplar which has a much stronger and more reliable offensive kit and also has a strong and reliable defensive kit that more than makes up for the lack of mobility that streak provides. The spec also falls far behind most bow specs which have a lot more damage and pressure as well as a lot higher survivability due to how strong and free dodge rolling is for mitigation.

For large group pvp:
1. magcro/stamden/magden/dk, all 4 specs provide high AoE damage in a large area and a lot of strong utility that is invaluable to wiping or preventing being wiped by other large groups.
2. magsorc/stamsorc, negate + streak to ensure the groups ulti dump lands and has minimal counter play is what makes this class rank this high for this style of play, stamsorc is probably slightly higher due to the additional aoe burst from spin to win, but magsorc is up there with it for this type of playstyle due to mages wrath being a ranged finisher, the only thing keeping it from being included at number 1, is the severe lack of AoE burst on mag and the lack of unique defensive utility for the group outside of negate.
3. magplar/nb, plar brings a lot of defensive utility to large scale group play, while nb brings a lot of offensive utility, the only reason nb doesn't place higher is due to its large aoe damage/stun requiring being in melee range and not working with convergence pull which is objectively better and its utility requires choosing offensive or defensive compared to negate which can be used for both.
4. stamcro/stamplar, both can run functionally the same set-ups as their mag counterparts, but mag provides much more utility overall which is why these 2 specs are at the bottom for group play, not to say they are bad, just that they aren't as strong as their mag counterparts.

For BGs, it depends on the ranking.
low level, everything works just fine.
high level, you will likely find the list for this will be a mix of the other 2 lists and will lean towards either list above depending on the mode and whether it's an organised group bg or a solo bg.

Caribou77

MagDen pales compared to Stamden due to powerful 2h weapon skills (or dual wield, if you prefer).

A magicka staff on a Magicka Warden is a very animal in PVP.

I’d love to hear what u think after trying a staff-wielding MagDen in pvp, OBJ. Seriously. You can probably give me some good tips. ☺️

lonnml

Magden with masters ice staff is great this patch

OBJnoob

Caribou77 wrote: »

MagDen pales compared to Stamden due to powerful 2h weapon skills (or dual wield, if you prefer).

A magicka staff on a Magicka Warden is a very animal in PVP.

I’d love to hear what u think after trying a staff-wielding MagDen in pvp, OBJ. Seriously. You can probably give me some good tips. ☺️

Well. The only stam skills my build currently uses are vigor and spin to win. Only reason I call him a stam build at all is because I'm using dual wield and shield. I have about 1700 recovery for both stats.

I feel like I could replace the dual wield with a lightning staff and try to use impulse instead of spin to win... Maybe use some bloodthirsty jewelry traits.

Would I miss spin to win? Probably, but I really really think it'd function 90% the same. And if/when this frost staff thing happens then THAT is exactly how all wardens will operate.

Turtle_Bot

Magden with masters ice staff is pretty strong, even this patch. It even has some range to it as well with 15m on beetles, + 28m on dive + clench and the skills all up grant major + minor breach (~+9k pen), +1000 raw weapon/spell damage + minor maim (reduced enemy damage done) + chilled (for brittle) + immobilise + snare + off balance which leads into a stun on medium weave, its a lot of crazy pressure, especially if you land the beetles. The only thing I've found lacking for magden is a good execute, destro staff doesn't have one and neither does the magden class kit, so to get a good one you need to go to a weapon ability (spin to win or executioner) at which point you might as well just play stamden/hybriden which loses the range (outside of the niche bowden), but gets abilities that hit harder at base, but with less buffs/debuffs/effects.

I have seen a ranged crit magden too that looked really interesting, it ran force pulse for the triple status as well as double dot poisons and the pressure really creeps up on you fast if you're not paying attention, especially with northern factored in.

Caribou77

The challenge I’ve found in pvp with magden is primarily 1) all ranged magicka spammables are very dodgeable by good players, and 2) lack of execute. Ive tried impulse with lightning n inferno, and it felt vry weak. I pretty much need to have dawnbreaker ready to hit in conjunction with deep fissure to get execute level damage.

I still enjoy the class, and hold my own in high mmr battlegrounds, but skilled dks or stamblades definitely have the upper hand in duels,

Caribou77

oh yeah, also, the 9 second delay on deep fissure is just too long to wait for. pvp is way faster than that.

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

My warden experience in Cyro
let's go with 2h: look stupid chasing people with big weapon mid air due to channel time in lag going from 0,8 sec to 8 sec
let's go with bird: dodged dodged dodged dodged dodged dodged dodged dodge dodge dodged dodge dodged

Hope you NA friend have a better experience

katorga

lonnml wrote: »

Magden with masters ice staff is great this patch

Master's Ice is underrated. I use sometimes on my Necro to spam immobilizes at max range until BB lands.

Urzigurumash

Best: NB, Warden
Mid: DK, Templar
Worst: Necro, Sorc

I'll take others' word for it that MagSorc is the worst, but I feel like StamCro isn't too far ahead, especially with DoT Builds which for me were quite strong not long ago.

Turtle_Bot

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Best: NB, Warden
Mid: DK, Templar
Worst: Necro, Sorc

I'll take others' word for it that MagSorc is the worst, but I feel like StamCro isn't too far ahead, especially with DoT Builds which for me were quite strong not long ago.

the main advantage stamcro still has over magsorc, is the easier use of the stamina weapons and abilities. Hybridisation has admittedly made this less of a redeeming factor when comparing necro to other classes, but with magsorc still being so heavily outdated with its class kit relying far too much on max mag for defense alongside unreliable healing, using the meta melee/stamina weapons becomes very difficult to build for as a magsorc since you have to give up almost all forms of defense outside of praying that streak works in lag due to a lack of reliable healing when building into damage, or you build into defense/mitigation with shields at which point healing and damage becomes non-existent.

Being tied into max mag for defense also removes the option of using the latest and strongest proc sets, that scale off damage, that other classes (including stamcro) can use easily because healing is tied to damage and the other classes have strong healing which gets further improved by the increased raw damage most people build for now. It's why stamsorc has become strong, now that people have finally figured out a build that works, stamsorc plays like most other classes with access to the meta weapons/abilities and easy use of the best proc sets in the game that scale off their damage as well as better passive self-healing with stronger vigors and more mitigation through easier dodge rolling and more speed.

Dotcro (and dot builds in general) really got hit hard this patch due to multiple factors.
1. the overall nerf to dots as well as the hit to the cros dot passive specifically (which it needed, a flat, unique 15% increase is absurd and even a unique 10% increase is still strong)
2. the introduction of mara's balm which can outheal most dots and cleanse them all if enough are applied
3. wardens becoming a top tier class (stamden is at least and magden is still decent) which have a free cleanse they can spam to clear off the dot pressure as well as having good healing and mitigation.
4. plar still being viable (or near top tier considering the PotL stacking bug with the heavily overtuned radiant oppression) doesn't help either.

TL//DR: stamcro still has easier access to the meta weapons/sets. Is d-swing/snipe/spin-to-win boring, for most people, yes, is it effective still, yes. Stamcro could also easily become one of the top tier classes with 1 simple change, buff ruinous scythe damage by about 10% to make it a viable alternative to d-swing/rapid strikes. BB into boneyard into a 10% stronger scythe into a spin to win will be a strong combo for sure, especially since it is all aoe. It's gonna take a lot more to fix the issues with magsorc, but at least it should be easy to fix stamcro.

katorga

TL//DR: stamcro still has easier access to the meta weapons/sets. Is d-swing/snipe/spin-to-win boring, for most people, yes, is it effective still, yes. Stamcro could also easily become one of the top tier classes with 1 simple change, buff ruinous scythe damage by about 10% to make it a viable alternative to d-swing/rapid strikes. BB into boneyard into a 10% stronger scythe into a spin to win will be a strong combo for sure, especially since it is all aoe. It's gonna take a lot more to fix the issues with magsorc, but at least it should be easy to fix stamcro.

Stam weapon builds are roughly equal to me, with standouts having advantages due to class kit....100% pen, or cloak for example. But it is a matter of degree. Really good players thrive in a melee meta regardless of class.

Turtle_Bot

katorga wrote: »

TL//DR: stamcro still has easier access to the meta weapons/sets. Is d-swing/snipe/spin-to-win boring, for most people, yes, is it effective still, yes. Stamcro could also easily become one of the top tier classes with 1 simple change, buff ruinous scythe damage by about 10% to make it a viable alternative to d-swing/rapid strikes. BB into boneyard into a 10% stronger scythe into a spin to win will be a strong combo for sure, especially since it is all aoe. It's gonna take a lot more to fix the issues with magsorc, but at least it should be easy to fix stamcro.

Stam weapon builds are roughly equal to me, with standouts having advantages due to class kit....100% pen, or cloak for example. But it is a matter of degree. Really good players thrive in a melee meta regardless of class.

Agreed, that the stamina weapons do shine better for certain classes, but they do feel stonger even on specs that would naturally prefer staves (at least from a pvp perspective). Unfortunately I haven't seen a magsorc do well in the current melee meta since I was doing decent with it back in U33 on a melee focused build for the class (I used vamp spammable since it hit hard and had no cast/travel time making it very reliable). Every sorc I see currently doing well is either a bowsorc or some sort of hybrid sorc that is predominantly stamina and only really uses magicka for curse + streak.
It's telling when you have one of the best and well known magsorc mains out there finally dropping the class due to how bad it has gotten.

Urzigurumash

All great points @Turtle_Bot . MagSorc and StamCro definitely face different problems, StamCro is probably number 1 in tankiness, and the change to Advanced Species next patch will probably push it up in relative power quite a bit, for a typical Stam build Advanced Species is a touch stronger right now than Dismember, next patch it will be much weaker.

Ignoring recent buffs to Warden and DK, I assume all of StamCro's recent loss of relative power can be attributed to the change to DoTs and the nerf to Rapid Rot - with the compensatory buff to Death Knell being too inaccessible if we're compelled to typically fit off-class Brutality and Savagery on our front bar. At least that's my read, it might be too strong but Brutality on Archer and Savagery on Siphon would go a long way to improving Class Identity - something which, despite its gradual loss of relative power over the last 4 years, MagSorc seems to still retain.

From my view I guess Scythe just needs to be stronger than Carve, which I'd say it now is. I enjoyed Carve quite a bit for that short time when its damage stacked - I get it was too strong for PvE though. Which may be StamCro's perennial problem as a DD in PvP, no matter how strong it occasionally is - potential improvements are limited by its strength as a PvE DD. But Scythe doesn't give me Death Knell, so I don't know that I want it on my frontbar anyhow, I view it more as a backbarrable AoE debuff ala Noxious Breath.