warden sustain

luchtt

sustain for warden is a bit of an overshadowed issue, since its dps is so ridiculously bad now that takes the spotlight.
I can barely sustain a rotation on a 6mil dummy, with high recovery food + betty netch active, and now you want to make me use an ice staff where its main damage over time ability indicates that it costs more? (Wall of Elements both morphs make ice wall cost more) magden cant even use deep fissure cause it takes too much mag lol.

Here's some ideas to fix that:
Betty netch (and stam netch too) up the sustain per second from 199 to 250 ish to make it similair to rune.
Give warden some sort of sustain passive, personally I really like copying Combustion from DK and turning it into: Gain x amount of mag when applying Chilled, and gain x amount of stamina when applying Bleed.
Could also change ice staff passives a little bit, so that they synergize better with warden's ice skills, like make ice abilities do 10-20% more dmg while holding an ice staff, instead of the increased cost. Ice skills aren't rly used by any other class anyway.
I would say if you do end up doing the combustion copy, change Flourished passive into that one.

either way, warden sustain sucks lol, I don't wanna go into next patch with trash dps warden, but even if you fix the dps, the sustain may overshadow the possible dps buffs when this patch goes live.

Mr_Stach

I would like to introduce you to Nature's Gift:

Nature's Gift
When you heal an ally with a Green Balance ability, you gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina, whichever resource pool is lower. This effect can occur once every 1 second.

One simple fix would make it a much better sustain passive:

Nature's Gift
When you heal yourself or an ally with a Green Balance ability, you gain 250 Magicka or 250 Stamina, whichever resource pool is lower. This effect can occur once every 1 second.

Another recovery passive:

Flourish:
Increases your Magicka and Stamina recovery by 12% if an Animal Companion ability is slotted.

Leaning into the idea of getting status effects:

Flourish:
Increases your Magicka and Stamina recovery by 12% if an Animal Companion ability is slotted. After getting a Chilled or Hemorrhaging Status Effect on an enemy this bonus is insreased to 15% for 10 seconds.

Just a couple of ideas to chew on

OBJnoob

The natures gift passive is actually pretty good. I can see how its not very helpful in pve for a DPS but in PvP I use the morph of living vines to give my allies minor lifesteal whenever they hit somebody that hit me.

Mr_Stach

OBJnoob wrote: »

The natures gift passive is actually pretty good. I can see how its not very helpful in pve for a DPS but in PvP I use the morph of living vines to give my allies minor lifesteal whenever they hit somebody that hit me.

It is, but making it work when healing yourself as well would not make it overwhelmingly powerful. It's just a very easy tweak that would help all facets of play.

OBJnoob

Honestly I think it would make it too powerful. Recovery happens every two seconds right? So you gotta double the passive in your head to compare. Say I'm a stam warden... So I get magic back. Essentially raising my magic recovery by 500. Or, in other terms, giving me 1000 magic every time I cast vigor.

At least the way it is now you have to use a skill slot for support to make use of it. Making it 'selfish' would just make already tanky wardens even stronger. The last thing PvP needs at this exact moment is tanky wardens casting polar wind or arctic blast as much as they want.

This is from a PvP perspective of course so... Yknow, take it with a grain of salt I know I'm a little out of place in this conversation. But its worth considering. 1000 magic every time I cast vigor?? No.

Honestly wardens have lots of recovery passives/skills, as you yourself pointed out. If they struggle with sustain (and I'm not so sure they do tbh, never heard this brought up before,) maybe we could just simply make some of their skills cheaper.

luchtt

OBJnoob wrote: »

Honestly I think it would make it too powerful. Recovery happens every two seconds right? So you gotta double the passive in your head to compare. Say I'm a stam warden... So I get magic back. Essentially raising my magic recovery by 500. Or, in other terms, giving me 1000 magic every time I cast vigor.

At least the way it is now you have to use a skill slot for support to make use of it. Making it 'selfish' would just make already tanky wardens even stronger. The last thing PvP needs at this exact moment is tanky wardens casting polar wind or arctic blast as much as they want.

This is from a PvP perspective of course so... Yknow, take it with a grain of salt I know I'm a little out of place in this conversation. But its worth considering. 1000 magic every time I cast vigor?? No.

Honestly wardens have lots of recovery passives/skills, as you yourself pointed out. If they struggle with sustain (and I'm not so sure they do tbh, never heard this brought up before,) maybe we could just simply make some of their skills cheaper.

that is a good point. I was strictly speaking from a pve perspective, failed to see the pvp perspective a bit, I know wardens currently are quite strong yeah.

Mr_Stach

OBJnoob wrote: »

Honestly I think it would make it too powerful. Recovery happens every two seconds right? So you gotta double the passive in your head to compare. Say I'm a stam warden... So I get magic back. Essentially raising my magic recovery by 500. Or, in other terms, giving me 1000 magic every time I cast vigor.

At least the way it is now you have to use a skill slot for support to make use of it. Making it 'selfish' would just make already tanky wardens even stronger. The last thing PvP needs at this exact moment is tanky wardens casting polar wind or arctic blast as much as they want.

This is from a PvP perspective of course so... Yknow, take it with a grain of salt I know I'm a little out of place in this conversation. But its worth considering. 1000 magic every time I cast vigor?? No.

Honestly wardens have lots of recovery passives/skills, as you yourself pointed out. If they struggle with sustain (and I'm not so sure they do tbh, never heard this brought up before,) maybe we could just simply make some of their skills cheaper.

Well it only activates off of Green Balance Skills, so it wouldn't apply to Arctic Blast or Vigor. But to balance it out for self healing, maybe increase the CD to every 3s.

ixthUA

On my hybrid warden i have no problems with sustain.

OBJnoob

@Mr_Stach oh jeez I misread the passive. Still, a lot of people use living trellis and it heals 'passively' once a second for 10 seconds I think so your magic restore would be almost constant. Yes, maybe increase the cool down. I'd say 2 seconds would be fine.

The only reason I'm hesitant is because, like the above comment, I'm just not so sure sustain is a problem for wardens anyway. Mine is also a hybrid, making use of the magic beetles and bird but with a stam spammable and execute.

I'm curious, what spammable do pve wardens use? This is perhaps part of the problem?

Mr_Stach

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Mr_Stach oh jeez I misread the passive. Still, a lot of people use living trellis and it heals 'passively' once a second for 10 seconds I think so your magic restore would be almost constant. Yes, maybe increase the cool down. I'd say 2 seconds would be fine.

The only reason I'm hesitant is because, like the above comment, I'm just not so sure sustain is a problem for wardens anyway. Mine is also a hybrid, making use of the magic beetles and bird but with a stam spammable and execute.

I'm curious, what spammable do pve wardens use? This is perhaps part of the problem?

That depends on if the person can stand to use Cliff Racers or not. I run a Frost Setup so I use Frost Reach with the Master's Frost Staff.

Stam setups often use hidden blade or crushing weapon. For Mag setups there's Elemental Weapon that you could use, people don't use force pulse as much anymore.

Point is Birds suck so people don't tend to use them due to them being clunky to use.

pikHz

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Mr_Stach oh jeez I misread the passive. Still, a lot of people use living trellis and it heals 'passively' once a second for 10 seconds I think so your magic restore would be almost constant. Yes, maybe increase the cool down. I'd say 2 seconds would be fine.

The only reason I'm hesitant is because, like the above comment, I'm just not so sure sustain is a problem for wardens anyway. Mine is also a hybrid, making use of the magic beetles and bird but with a stam spammable and execute.

I'm curious, what spammable do pve wardens use? This is perhaps part of the problem?

I can only speak for myself but I usually use Frost Reach, and sometimes Crushing Shock/Force Pulse depending on the scenario. I haven't really run a mag setup since U35 hit so I don't know how the new SCR bonuses actually perform. I also don't run into sustain problems, especially with hybridization.

One thing I do want to clarify is the passive Nature's Gift restores the resource which is currently lower, not which maximum is lower. I don't know specifically if it's based off of which one is lower as a percentage or raw number but it will restore either resource depending on need. It was a few patches ago, but I've tested it.

OBJnoob

Aren't melee weapons out parsing staves this patch? Changing to dual wield and using a stam spammable might help the sustain problem and increase DPS?

As for me in PvP land... The birds are clunky and I don't much like them. The passives for slotting and using them are really good for PvP though and mostly due to the wardens increased magic damage the tooltip is higher than most alternatives too. I don't love it. Hardly ever make use of the 400 extra weapon damage because my targets are right next to me.

luchtt

OBJnoob wrote: »

Aren't melee weapons out parsing staves this patch? Changing to dual wield and using a stam spammable might help the sustain problem and increase DPS?

As for me in PvP land... The birds are clunky and I don't much like them. The passives for slotting and using them are really good for PvP though and mostly due to the wardens increased magic damage the tooltip is higher than most alternatives too. I don't love it. Hardly ever make use of the 400 extra weapon damage because my targets are right next to me.

Yes, but this doesnt help sustain much for warden, especially as the devs are pushing for wardens to exclusively use ice staves with this ridiculous passive. using a backbar 2h is also *** cause you have to use a destro staff because otherwise winters revenge is never worth running and all you have is bad dots. It's just a terrible place for warden all round in pve.

I play mag because I'm solo and I need pen, which light armor has a lot of. Switching to stam probably wont help my sustain but it'll kill my dmg even if it helps sustain. Not to mention: it wouldnt be very ''play how you want'' if I HAVE to play stam just to be able to sustain. I already can barely use deep fissure cause of sustain issues and im mag

Birds are annoying to use yeah I agree with you on that, I prefer not using them despite how strong they are, they feel rly slow and clunky to use.

luchtt

pikHz wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Mr_Stach oh jeez I misread the passive. Still, a lot of people use living trellis and it heals 'passively' once a second for 10 seconds I think so your magic restore would be almost constant. Yes, maybe increase the cool down. I'd say 2 seconds would be fine.

The only reason I'm hesitant is because, like the above comment, I'm just not so sure sustain is a problem for wardens anyway. Mine is also a hybrid, making use of the magic beetles and bird but with a stam spammable and execute.

I'm curious, what spammable do pve wardens use? This is perhaps part of the problem?

I can only speak for myself but I usually use Frost Reach, and sometimes Crushing Shock/Force Pulse depending on the scenario. I haven't really run a mag setup since U35 hit so I don't know how the new SCR bonuses actually perform. I also don't run into sustain problems, especially with hybridization.

One thing I do want to clarify is the passive Nature's Gift restores the resource which is currently lower, not which maximum is lower. I don't know specifically if it's based off of which one is lower as a percentage or raw number but it will restore either resource depending on need. It was a few patches ago, but I've tested it.

I currently use 3 stam skills, and 5/6 mag skills, and this is pretty much unsustainable solo at least, on a dummy its different but I'm not taking my warden to any trials I want to perform in anyway sine it's damage is abysmal.

I also don't want to be pigeon holed into using a self heal just to be able to sustain, I mean look at any other class. Most classes have either insane sustain (sorc/cro) or a bit more than enough (nb/dk/templar) It's not that warden *can't* sustain. It's just that it's really hard and forces you to actually think about it a lot and potentially change up your build in a less fun way just to not be at 0 rescources all the time while classes like sorc and cro can't even use coral riptide and bahsei since they CANNOT practically drop their rescources low enough. It feels really bad.

OBJnoob

@luchtt you're only casting shalks once every 9 seconds I doubt this is the cause of your problem. I see why you want to use a staff, and yes I'm aware that soon we'll all have to. One last suggestion... I still think your sustain issue could be made better by using your off-stat more often. Perhaps the fighters guild ability silver shards would work as a spammable for you. It could be used from range, would also do cleave damage, and slotting a fighters guild ability isn't the worst thing as far as passives go.

Out of curiosity how much recovery do you folks run? There's a blue drink called clarified cloudrest coffee that I use in PvP it gives roughly 475 stam and mag recovery for 1 hour. With it my guy has like 1700 recovery in both. I run the stam recovery mundus and the blue Betty netch. All my buffs and heals (except vigor,) are magic and all my attacks (except spin to win execute,) are magic also.

I use tripots. I find that my resources mostly run out at the same speed, because even though I use magic more I also do a lot of blocking, rolling, and sprinting. I feel like in pve you don't do much of that at all... And so I really really encourage you to find a way to use your stamina to help give your magic a break. I really really think that's the answer.

luchtt

OBJnoob wrote: »

@luchtt you're only casting shalks once every 9 seconds I doubt this is the cause of your problem. I see why you want to use a staff, and yes I'm aware that soon we'll all have to. One last suggestion... I still think your sustain issue could be made better by using your off-stat more often. Perhaps the fighters guild ability silver shards would work as a spammable for you. It could be used from range, would also do cleave damage, and slotting a fighters guild ability isn't the worst thing as far as passives go.

Out of curiosity how much recovery do you folks run? There's a blue drink called clarified cloudrest coffee that I use in PvP it gives roughly 475 stam and mag recovery for 1 hour. With it my guy has like 1700 recovery in both. I run the stam recovery mundus and the blue Betty netch. All my buffs and heals (except vigor,) are magic and all my attacks (except spin to win execute,) are magic also.

I use tripots. I find that my resources mostly run out at the same speed, because even though I use magic more I also do a lot of blocking, rolling, and sprinting. I feel like in pve you don't do much of that at all... And so I really really encourage you to find a way to use your stamina to help give your magic a break. I really really think that's the answer.

You're in pvp, you build for dmg in pve, not recovery.
''just use more stam skills'' No. I've tried a lot of different workable stam skills, and there's very few. You can't use a stam spammable on a mag spec, so this is not an option. Even with 3 stam skills, replacing 1 mag for 1 stam (which there are very few of, stam skills i mean) I just run out of stam instantly instead. I have about 2000 recovery without betty netch, and with betty netch its still always super close to 0% mag.

there's no reason to use that food, it would just destroy your max stats/dmg without giving sufficient rescources in return (my food gives higher mag reco and 5.4k max health, parsefood also doesn't work btw i have tested) Using mundus stones for sustain is also really just a horrible option in pve. It can give a lot more dmg potential than recovery.

On the dummy its a lot easier obviously with synergies and recovery sets automatically applied.

''giving your magic a break using stam'' you're assuming my stam is unused, it's not. It's sitting at 30% on average with my current best setup lol. Both rescources are very low after like 20s into any fight. The solution to this in content is stuff like the mag reco cp's, but again this only rly works in add pools or add heavy boss fights, in a single target fight you'll just have 0 mag xD.

It might be fine in pvp, but it's obvious in pve sustain is just utter trash, needs to be fixed in some way.

If i want to use tristat pots, I need to assure that I get major sorcery + savagery/prophecy. These cost at least 3 slots in my bars which again, nukes your dmg.

The problem isnt ''warden cant get sustain'' I know there's *ways* to get sustain, but all of these involve heavily gimping either your survivability, damage, or a combination of both. If you truly want to see for yourself what this looks like, I highly recommend looking at this perfect example:

(dmg is even lower on PTS than this btw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doxD5VvxMl0

Not only is warden the worst damage by far this patch, its also the worst sustain by far this patch on both stam and mag.

OBJnoob

I concede the point, I've given up the debate and have just been trying to help for several posts now.

I understand that building for recovery will be to the detriment of your damage but it is possible that 90% damage 100% of the time will be better than 100% damage 80% of the time. I'm not tricking myself into thinking I know more than you, I'm just trying to exhaust every possibility to help.

Another idea you have perhaps already thought of... Use a mages guild ability to gain empower so that your necessary heavy attacking isn't such a damage loss?

Also... Perhaps a reduce cost jewelry glyph? Since it can be of use once every gcd instead of once every 2s it is sometimes way better than classic recovery.

dmnqwk

The first thing to remember is that you don't heal if your health is 100%. So changing the passive to self wouldn't do much for DD.

A better alteration would probably be changing Netch.

Netch currently returns 5k over 25 seconds to a single resource, but it could be altered to provide 5% of both resources every 5 seconds. On a 30k bar (which is a reasonably low number for most DD to achieve) it'd return 7500 over the time instead).

Bull Netch morph would return stamina and magicka based on 3% of max health instead (so a 50k tank would get the same return as a 30k DD).
Betty Netch morph would extend the duration to 1 minute.

OBJnoob

There's currently a thread going about how netch is OP because it does to much and costs nothing to cast. While I don't agree with them, I do think a buff is unnecessary.

Why not just reduce the cost of a key skill or two? Why make it more complicated than it has to be?

Okay you know what here's the best idea I've had yet you pve people should like this. The advanced species penetration passive is garbage for pve because you're over-penning anyway, right? And the suggested change to crit damage is garbage for the same reason right? Change it to increase your highest max stat recovery by 5%(or whatever number is fair,) per skill slotted.

ESO_Nightingale

OBJnoob wrote: »

There's currently a thread going about how netch is OP because it does to much and costs nothing to cast. While I don't agree with them, I do think a buff is unnecessary.

Why not just reduce the cost of a key skill or two? Why make it more complicated than it has to be?

Okay you know what here's the best idea I've had yet you pve people should like this. The advanced species penetration passive is garbage for pve because you're over-penning anyway, right? And the suggested change to crit damage is garbage for the same reason right? Change it to increase your highest max stat recovery by 5%(or whatever number is fair,) per skill slotted.

There's already a passive in animal companions that increases recoveries by 12%. If it was changed to a flat 200 stam and mag recovery that'd help a ton.

luchtt

OBJnoob wrote: »

I concede the point, I've given up the debate and have just been trying to help for several posts now.

I understand that building for recovery will be to the detriment of your damage but it is possible that 90% damage 100% of the time will be better than 100% damage 80% of the time. I'm not tricking myself into thinking I know more than you, I'm just trying to exhaust every possibility to help.

Another idea you have perhaps already thought of... Use a mages guild ability to gain empower so that your necessary heavy attacking isn't such a damage loss?

Also... Perhaps a reduce cost jewelry glyph? Since it can be of use once every gcd instead of once every 2s it is sometimes way better than classic recovery.

I understand your sentiment, but look at it this way:
Why does warden have to put SO MUCH rescources into sustain while other classes barely need to think about it?
You yourself said you need double sustain no max stat food and stamina recovery mundus. That's ridiculously overkill for any class but on warden it's apperantly neccesary? that's not a problem you need to overcome, that's a problem the devs need to fix.

No dps class right now has to even consider putting recovery on jewelry, If you're considering that, that means the class has 0 sustain. I've talked to a few pvpers aswell and they say while warden is pretty strong in pvp right now, it's sustain is also not exactly great. Probably a bit better than pve dps sustain but it's not like buffing warden sustain would destroy pvp it seems. Even solo in pve endgame content i can sustain fine without ever really investing anything into sustain other than food a little bit more for all other classes. Except for warden of course.

Mr_Stach

Personally I think it's because:

• Warden has poor synergy between their skills and passives.
• You really only have good sustain when healing others.
• The free sustain we get as a skill is weaker than any other classes sustain skills

If we need Betty to have a cost to get a buff. so be it.
If we need to increase the CD on Nature's Gift to let it include self-healing. so be it.
If we need to break Warden down to it's base concepts to build them up to synergize and make Warden a better class. So be it.

People want Warden to be better but they don't want it to change, I think people need to accept that Warden needs to change to improve.

luchtt

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Personally I think it's because:

• Warden has poor synergy between their skills and passives.
• You really only have good sustain when healing others.
• The free sustain we get as a skill is weaker than any other classes sustain skills

If we need Betty to have a cost to get a buff. so be it.
If we need to increase the CD on Nature's Gift to let it include self-healing. so be it.
If we need to break Warden down to it's base concepts to build them up to synergize and make Warden a better class. So be it.

People want Warden to be better but they don't want it to change, I think people need to accept that Warden needs to change to improve.

I don't think betty needs a buff. Look at any other class, they run bi-stat + no sustain skills. IF you buff betty, you might fix it's sustain but that means it is forced to run the netch. Same problem with destro staff tied to winters revenge and ice staff stuff. It's bad.

Tannus15

sorry, but a 21m parse build can't sustain a 6m parse most of the time, especially if you're not leaning heavily into a mis of stam and mag skills. my sorc is completely out of resources just killing a 3m, nevermind a 6m unless i've made adjustments for it.
basically if you can sustain a 6m parse you're massively over sustaining on the 21m dummy.

can you post your CMX of your parse to support your point?