Class Access to Named Buffs/Debuffs

MashmalloMan

Pelanora wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Ever try using a Sorc on a 3/6m dummy vs a class with innate access to things like major/minor breach, minor berserk, and/or minor vulnerability? It's night and day. Back before raid dummies, Stam DK and Stam NB consistently output more dummy DPS than Stam Sorc because they had access to more named effects passively. The Stam Sorc may have had a larger DPS ceiling under proper circumstances, but most people wouldn't test that far so it just appeared medicore..

Beyond night and day, it's utterly dispririting. Because this level of knowledge is hard to acquire, and you assume the game is built with rules that mean 'it works' so all you have is that somehow you've failed. And then you give up trying.

Definitely, throughout the years, especially before raid dummy's, I've seen a lot of newer players confused as to why their main class did like 30-50% more dps than their alt class because they didn't understand how important innate access was to those stronger named effects when they're not already included via a group/raid dummy.

It got to a point where you had to have a tank supply Puncture and Combat Prayer for you to get a more accurate read on Sorc/Templar/DK dps lol. It was around the time Gilliam was showing 60k dummy parses on NB, back when they passively got Major Breach from Surprise Attack and Minor Berserk from Mercilous Resolve. At first glance, it'd be like... "why is 1 class doing 60k when the rest are stuck doing 40-50k."

At least the raid dummy helps with that now, but on the other hand.. It kinda ruins things because ZOS focuses a lot on DPS parses, but not at all on how that DPS is obtained. What is the cleave like? Did that class have a majority of those buffs already? Put that same class in pvp with their pets, do they lose a large chunk of their potential? All important questions a simple DPS average number doesn't show.

MashmalloMan

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zekka wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

And half the other debuffs are on joke skills (PvP wise) lmao.
Major Breach is on the PvE morph of graveyard, a whopping 2 sec Major Protection per corpse on Deaden Pain a completely unused morph since the major/minor system nerf, Minor Vulnerability on Agony Totem and it's on a synergy another player has to activate, Minor Maim on Grave Grasp enough said, and like you said necro doesn't have access to Minor Defile.

same with sorc lol, major vitality on an unusable morph of an already almost never used skill (restraining prison) that lasts for a whopping 2 seconds up to 8 depending if you manage to immobilise the max of 6 enemies with that skill somehow, major berserk on an expensive ultimate that got undeservedly nerfed in U35 that requires an ally to use the synergy making it unobtainable in solo play, minor vulnerability is a chance to happen on inflicting the concussed status effect which is a chance to happen when dealing shock damage (I.e. its a chance within a chance to get that debuff) so it should be a ? symbol and not an x symbol for that effect just like what op did for breach on sorc.

@MashmalloMan please fix this up for vulnerability on the sorc column, the class does not have a guaranteed access to this debuff as it is a chance to occur when inflicting concussed status which is a chance to occur on dealing shock damage, so it fits within your definition for the ? symbol below the table. Please also look into how major berserk is counted, requiring an ally to get that buff from the synergy and a chance to not get it at all as it goes to the closest allies and is not guaranteed on the atro's caster, especially if out of range which a sorc is supposed to be being a ranged dd.

I'm not going to bother getting into the nitty gritty of how easy or hard a synergy is to proc for major berserk when it comes to the table, I feel that is too subjective and should be left up to discussion. Accessibility from common skills like spammables vs uncommon skills like Restraining Prison is very important, but i didn't feel the need to quantity it.

This is not a class balance table and should be taken with a grain of salt. The point is, the class has access within their kit.

For Minor Vulnerability, it's guaranteed from the charged status effect, which is guaranteed from the Charged Atronach morph.

Fair enough, it is a discussion that needs to be had, however maybe a note at the bottom would help as ease of access is quite important when discussing the access a class has to buffs/debuffs and you touched on this a little bit in your summary below the table. Maybe something like adding an ! or something on buffs that are harder to access for classes (e.g. requires an outside factor to obtain such as an ally using your synergy, or is tied to an otherwise unusable skill, etc).

Would be really interesting to see how the chart changes when accessibility is factored into it. my bet is that nb would look even more overtuned than this chart currently shows.

Good idea, I wanted to keep it simple, but I guess something like synergies can technically be quantified and the exclamation mark is simple enough. Kinda messes with the scoring though.. I opted not to include the question marks, not sure if I'd include exclamation either.

Pelanora

Imagine if you discovered choosing to use the boot token in Monopoly meant you'd never land on the railway stations or the yellow properties.

S'no fair

Turtle_Bot

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zekka wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Did you seriously count minor defile with Necro? We put that debuff on ourselves...

And half the other debuffs are on joke skills (PvP wise) lmao.
Major Breach is on the PvE morph of graveyard, a whopping 2 sec Major Protection per corpse on Deaden Pain a completely unused morph since the major/minor system nerf, Minor Vulnerability on Agony Totem and it's on a synergy another player has to activate, Minor Maim on Grave Grasp enough said, and like you said necro doesn't have access to Minor Defile.

same with sorc lol, major vitality on an unusable morph of an already almost never used skill (restraining prison) that lasts for a whopping 2 seconds up to 8 depending if you manage to immobilise the max of 6 enemies with that skill somehow, major berserk on an expensive ultimate that got undeservedly nerfed in U35 that requires an ally to use the synergy making it unobtainable in solo play, minor vulnerability is a chance to happen on inflicting the concussed status effect which is a chance to happen when dealing shock damage (I.e. its a chance within a chance to get that debuff) so it should be a ? symbol and not an x symbol for that effect just like what op did for breach on sorc.

@MashmalloMan please fix this up for vulnerability on the sorc column, the class does not have a guaranteed access to this debuff as it is a chance to occur when inflicting concussed status which is a chance to occur on dealing shock damage, so it fits within your definition for the ? symbol below the table. Please also look into how major berserk is counted, requiring an ally to get that buff from the synergy and a chance to not get it at all as it goes to the closest allies and is not guaranteed on the atro's caster, especially if out of range which a sorc is supposed to be being a ranged dd.

I'm not going to bother getting into the nitty gritty of how easy or hard a synergy is to proc for major berserk when it comes to the table, I feel that is too subjective and should be left up to discussion. Accessibility from common skills like spammables vs uncommon skills like Restraining Prison is very important, but i didn't feel the need to quantity it.

This is not a class balance table and should be taken with a grain of salt. The point is, the class has access within their kit.

For Minor Vulnerability, it's guaranteed from the charged status effect, which is guaranteed from the Charged Atronach morph.

Fair enough, it is a discussion that needs to be had, however maybe a note at the bottom would help as ease of access is quite important when discussing the access a class has to buffs/debuffs and you touched on this a little bit in your summary below the table. Maybe something like adding an ! or something on buffs that are harder to access for classes (e.g. requires an outside factor to obtain such as an ally using your synergy, or is tied to an otherwise unusable skill, etc).

Would be really interesting to see how the chart changes when accessibility is factored into it. my bet is that nb would look even more overtuned than this chart currently shows.

Good idea, I wanted to keep it simple, but I guess something like synergies can technically be quantified and the exclamation mark is simple enough. Kinda messes with the scoring though.. I opted not to include the question marks, not sure if I'd include exclamation either.

imo exclamations could be counted as a 1/2 or 0 for scoring. I love what you did with the chart, but yeah, it's hard to keep it simple when it comes to stuff like this because there's always going to be some important information that gets left out or is just too difficult to quantify in a simple way.

Hopefully the devs listen though, it definitely needs further, more in depth discussion.

YandereGirlfriend

This is tangential and fairly "cool story bro" to the balance discussion currently underway (by the way, buff Sorc and Necro!) but I was browsing art assets the other day and noticed UI art for:

MAJOR Magickasteal
MAJOR Lifesteal
Minor STAMINASTEAL
Major STAMINASTEAL
MAJOR Mangle
MAJOR Uncertainty
MAJOR Enervation

There was also Major/Minor Erosion, but I have no idea what that is/was meant to do.

Not that it would solve core problems such as lack of access to staple buffs like Major Resolve/Brutality/Savagery/etc. but I can think of at least two classes where the above debuffs could find happy homes were they ever to be implemented in-game.

Pelanora

So they adding buffs on top of wanting to reduce damage and nerfing damage? How does that work?