Since Tri-Focus Mag Blocking is currently busted, let's not fix it

Mr_Stach

Ok so work is going to need to be done on Destro Staff anyways with the Blocking being broken, I would like to propose that we use this opportunity to fix Frost Staff as a damage option. Now how do we do this?

Just add another separate passive that has " blocking costs Magicka instead of Stamina" & "reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%"

This would make any Destro Staff able to be used by a Tank and we could open up the Frost Staff to be useful. This would of course need to happen instead of tying the Frost Staff to Warden. Make Frost Staff good by itself and make people want to use it vs being compelled to use it (despite it still not being that good even with a Warden using it).

I really think that each elemental Staff should be comparable in damage, I don't know how Zos would swing it, but making each one a desirable choice is very important. You should never be annoyed when you get a Lightning or Frost Staff, but currently Fire Staff is so powerful that it is the ONLY choice for damage.

Now something that could be interesting is if we went back to how elemental spells worked in Skyrim, Fire Spells added a small DoT, Frost Spells sapped Stamina, and Lightning sapped Magicka. I don't know if people would like that but it would make each an interesting choice vs x does more damage.

Anyways that's my thoughts, let frost staff be good on it's own merits and not because warden has a passive that doesn't actually make frost staff or warden better.

BasP

What if the Ancient Knowledge passive would simpy increase your damage by 10% to enemies that are afflicted by the elemental status effect of the staff you're wielding? So with an Inferno Staff you'd do 10% more damage to Burning enemies, with a Lightning Staff you'd do more damage to Concussed enemies and with a Frost Staff you'd hit Chilled enemies harder. Perhaps something like that would begin to level the playing field a bit.

ESO_Nightingale

BasP wrote: »

What if the Ancient Knowledge passive would simpy increase your damage by 10% to enemies that are afflicted by the elemental status effect of the staff you're wielding? So with an Inferno Staff you'd do 10% more damage to Burning enemies, with a Lightning Staff you'd do more damage to Concussed enemies and with a Frost Staff you'd hit Chilled enemies harder. Perhaps something like that would begin to level the playing field a bit.

Problem with that is needing to run enough status effect chance/abilities to make sure that stuff stays procced.

Soarora

Okay I know I’ve been wandering around arguing that tanky ice staff is great… but this is a fantastic idea. The combined passive gives risk/reward if used on a DPS which I think is fine. I also agree element should matter more, I love elemental builds. Doesn’t make sense inferno is single target, if anything ice should be while inferno would make more sense if it were DoT based. I think the current elemental system could use work though… not many people use lightning for it’s AOE since inferno is just… better.

LeHarrt91

Yes it would be nice for both Shock and Frost staves to have comparable dps bonuses. Tho issues also arise with Wall of Elements elemental effects. maybe they should be universal as well.

BasP

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Problem with that is needing to run enough status effect chance/abilities to make sure that stuff stays procced.

Oh, that makes sense. I had a feeling my suggestion would be flawed in some way. Admittedly I'm an average solo player that doesn't know the ins and outs of ESO's combat, and I'd hoped Wall of Elements (and maybe using the corresponding Weapon Glyph on the frontbar) would ensure a good uptime on the status effect.

ESO_Nightingale

BasP wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Problem with that is needing to run enough status effect chance/abilities to make sure that stuff stays procced.

Oh, that makes sense. I had a feeling my suggestion would be flawed in some way. Admittedly I'm an average solo player that doesn't know the ins and outs of ESO's combat, and I'd hoped Wall of Elements (and maybe using the corresponding Weapon Glyph on the frontbar) would ensure a good uptime on the status effect.

Wall isn't great and without charged, enchant uptime isn't particularly great.

tonyblack

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Arthtur

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

Klingenlied

Arthtur wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

There is actually a lot to this. Warden has options for tanking that are insanely varied. You can (easily!) tank with 2 froststaffs nowadays because gear setups / hybridization allow for it. Of course you will get outperformed by the classic meta setups. But "frost tanking", in regards to being a storm or debuffing for extra damage (coral aerie set that gives 2k+ ice damage every light attack from other players or so?) is really fun and still surprisingly effective.

So I'd too say: no, don't remove frost as a tank-element. Why? What for? That never was a real issue.
And the more I read about the whole "change Warden into a frost class", the more I feel this is the wrong move. Warden skill set in terms of "elements" is good as is. Visuals are fine enough. What we lack is proper numbers / power in our kit and good feeling in regards of "feedback" - I still hate pushing a button to see it go off after 3 and another 6 seconds.

Mr_Stach

Klingenlied wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

There is actually a lot to this. Warden has options for tanking that are insanely varied. You can (easily!) tank with 2 froststaffs nowadays because gear setups / hybridization allow for it. Of course you will get outperformed by the classic meta setups. But "frost tanking", in regards to being a storm or debuffing for extra damage (coral aerie set that gives 2k+ ice damage every light attack from other players or so?) is really fun and still surprisingly effective.

So I'd too say: no, don't remove frost as a tank-element. Why? What for? That never was a real issue.
And the more I read about the whole "change Warden into a frost class", the more I feel this is the wrong move. Warden skill set in terms of "elements" is good as is. Visuals are fine enough. What we lack is proper numbers / power in our kit and good feeling in regards of "feedback" - I still hate pushing a button to see it go off after 3 and another 6 seconds.

If Zos is going to force Wardens, or at least give the appearance that Frost Staff is the best way to do damage on Warden, then Frost Staff itself needs to be more comparable as a DPS Option. That's the whole point of this post, making Frost Staff a better DPS Option while simultaneously not removing Tanking Options on Destruction Staff through adding a new Passive. I really think this is the best way that Zos can make both parties happy.

With the new Passive though, it would open up gaps in Frost Staff to make it better, such as with Ancient Knowledge, it could be you get extra Crit Chance while having a Frost Staff Equipped. For Tri-focus it could be adjusted a little bit as well, Fully-charged Ice Staff Heavy Attacks grants you a damage shield that absorbs 4000 damage. While this Damage shield is active, enemies that deal damage to the shield are dealt X Frost Damage (small amount for balance) and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds.

That's how I would approach the situation at least.

tonyblack

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

There is actually a lot to this. Warden has options for tanking that are insanely varied. You can (easily!) tank with 2 froststaffs nowadays because gear setups / hybridization allow for it. Of course you will get outperformed by the classic meta setups. But "frost tanking", in regards to being a storm or debuffing for extra damage (coral aerie set that gives 2k+ ice damage every light attack from other players or so?) is really fun and still surprisingly effective.

So I'd too say: no, don't remove frost as a tank-element. Why? What for? That never was a real issue.
And the more I read about the whole "change Warden into a frost class", the more I feel this is the wrong move. Warden skill set in terms of "elements" is good as is. Visuals are fine enough. What we lack is proper numbers / power in our kit and good feeling in regards of "feedback" - I still hate pushing a button to see it go off after 3 and another 6 seconds.

If Zos is going to force Wardens, or at least give the appearance that Frost Staff is the best way to do damage on Warden, then Frost Staff itself needs to be more comparable as a DPS Option. That's the whole point of this post, making Frost Staff a better DPS Option while simultaneously not removing Tanking Options on Destruction Staff through adding a new Passive. I really think this is the best way that Zos can make both parties happy.

With the new Passive though, it would open up gaps in Frost Staff to make it better, such as with Ancient Knowledge, it could be you get extra Crit Chance while having a Frost Staff Equipped. For Tri-focus it could be adjusted a little bit as well, Fully-charged Ice Staff Heavy Attacks grants you a damage shield that absorbs 4000 damage. While this Damage shield is active, enemies that deal damage to the shield are dealt X Frost Damage (small amount for balance) and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds.

That's how I would approach the situation at least.

Frost staff already overwhelmed by completely different set of abilities and passives compare to inferno and lightning variations, adding even more functionality on top of that would make it unnecessary overloaded and potentially overpowered, especially for pvp. Currently you get access to major+minor malm, minor brittle, immobilizes, damage shields, minor protection, reduced cost of blocking and additional damage mitigation, conversion to magicka cost for blocking. Most of them not as good for pve damage dealers, but if a weapon provides all that utility and deal just about the same damage as other types of staves, then you’d have different balancing problems. In pvp it’s solid option as it is.

If you’re balancing for all types of content you either need to sacrifice tanking utility or leave it as tank weapon and stop forcing its use for other roles.

MashmalloMan

tonyblack wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

There is actually a lot to this. Warden has options for tanking that are insanely varied. You can (easily!) tank with 2 froststaffs nowadays because gear setups / hybridization allow for it. Of course you will get outperformed by the classic meta setups. But "frost tanking", in regards to being a storm or debuffing for extra damage (coral aerie set that gives 2k+ ice damage every light attack from other players or so?) is really fun and still surprisingly effective.

So I'd too say: no, don't remove frost as a tank-element. Why? What for? That never was a real issue.
And the more I read about the whole "change Warden into a frost class", the more I feel this is the wrong move. Warden skill set in terms of "elements" is good as is. Visuals are fine enough. What we lack is proper numbers / power in our kit and good feeling in regards of "feedback" - I still hate pushing a button to see it go off after 3 and another 6 seconds.

If Zos is going to force Wardens, or at least give the appearance that Frost Staff is the best way to do damage on Warden, then Frost Staff itself needs to be more comparable as a DPS Option. That's the whole point of this post, making Frost Staff a better DPS Option while simultaneously not removing Tanking Options on Destruction Staff through adding a new Passive. I really think this is the best way that Zos can make both parties happy.

With the new Passive though, it would open up gaps in Frost Staff to make it better, such as with Ancient Knowledge, it could be you get extra Crit Chance while having a Frost Staff Equipped. For Tri-focus it could be adjusted a little bit as well, Fully-charged Ice Staff Heavy Attacks grants you a damage shield that absorbs 4000 damage. While this Damage shield is active, enemies that deal damage to the shield are dealt X Frost Damage (small amount for balance) and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds.

That's how I would approach the situation at least.

Frost staff already overwhelmed by completely different set of abilities and passives compare to inferno and lightning variations, adding even more functionality on top of that would make it unnecessary overloaded and potentially overpowered, especially for pvp. Currently you get access to major+minor malm, minor brittle, immobilizes, damage shields, minor protection, reduced cost of blocking and additional damage mitigation, conversion to magicka cost for blocking. Most of them not as good for pve damage dealers, but if a weapon provides all that utility and deal just about the same damage as other types of staves, then you’d have different balancing problems. In pvp it’s solid option as it is.

If you’re balancing for all types of content you either need to sacrifice tanking utility or leave it as tank weapon and stop forcing its use for other roles.

Agreed, it's getting too much value as a CC and Damage weapon because ZOS wants it to be for both. The real problems for Frost vs Fire vs Shock stems from sets, debuffs, status effects and morphs. Fire outclasses not only Frost, but also Shock, so buffing Frost staves to catch up to Fire is the wrong approach. Fire should be brought down.

Encratis and DK's debuff need to be looked at. Change Encratis to Shock/Fire/Frost or something new. Give Warden and Sorc their own +6% element damage taken bonuses, there should be more unique purposes to bring different sub classes in a trial than minor prophecy or minor toughness.

Burning vs Chilled vs Concussed is fine the way it is, not everything needs to be DPS related and the additional debuffs are beneficial in the right content. If anything, some Warden/Sorc passives for increased damage with their respective status effects would be the best approach like how DK gets 50% poisoned/burning damage.

For the staff passives what I would do:

Penetrating Magic:

• Renamed to Defensive Magic
• Remove 10% penetration for Destruction staff abilities
• Add blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina
• Passive becomes completely optional and is now available for Frost/Shock/Flame staves

Tri Focus:

• Remove blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina from Frost Staff
• Buff Frost heavy damage shield from 4k to 6-8k
• Fire/Shock bonuses remain the same

Elemental Force:

• Add original Penetrating Magic penetration.. maybe update from 10% pen to flat value. Maces did this years ago, about time this was addressed
• 100% status effect chance remains

Yes.. Ancient Knowledge doesn't increase Frost Staff damage like Fire/Shock, but Minor Brittle is an unwritten passive, it's free. You can think of it as an Ancient Knowledge bonus because clearly it was modeled after it. The cost reduction and increased mitigation is massive for any build, not just tanking. Fair trade imo. Also, every staff type can convert their block cost to magicka optionally, but Frost would still do it best due to the reduced cost and increased mitigation. Win/win.

boi_anachronism_

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

BasP wrote: »

What if the Ancient Knowledge passive would simpy increase your damage by 10% to enemies that are afflicted by the elemental status effect of the staff you're wielding? So with an Inferno Staff you'd do 10% more damage to Burning enemies, with a Lightning Staff you'd do more damage to Concussed enemies and with a Frost Staff you'd hit Chilled enemies harder. Perhaps something like that would begin to level the playing field a bit.

Problem with that is needing to run enough status effect chance/abilities to make sure that stuff stays procced.

True but most folks running destro run wall, CS, some run clench as well. Warden has a bunch of abilities that proc chilled I believe.

Minalan

MashmalloMan wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

There is actually a lot to this. Warden has options for tanking that are insanely varied. You can (easily!) tank with 2 froststaffs nowadays because gear setups / hybridization allow for it. Of course you will get outperformed by the classic meta setups. But "frost tanking", in regards to being a storm or debuffing for extra damage (coral aerie set that gives 2k+ ice damage every light attack from other players or so?) is really fun and still surprisingly effective.

So I'd too say: no, don't remove frost as a tank-element. Why? What for? That never was a real issue.
And the more I read about the whole "change Warden into a frost class", the more I feel this is the wrong move. Warden skill set in terms of "elements" is good as is. Visuals are fine enough. What we lack is proper numbers / power in our kit and good feeling in regards of "feedback" - I still hate pushing a button to see it go off after 3 and another 6 seconds.

If Zos is going to force Wardens, or at least give the appearance that Frost Staff is the best way to do damage on Warden, then Frost Staff itself needs to be more comparable as a DPS Option. That's the whole point of this post, making Frost Staff a better DPS Option while simultaneously not removing Tanking Options on Destruction Staff through adding a new Passive. I really think this is the best way that Zos can make both parties happy.

With the new Passive though, it would open up gaps in Frost Staff to make it better, such as with Ancient Knowledge, it could be you get extra Crit Chance while having a Frost Staff Equipped. For Tri-focus it could be adjusted a little bit as well, Fully-charged Ice Staff Heavy Attacks grants you a damage shield that absorbs 4000 damage. While this Damage shield is active, enemies that deal damage to the shield are dealt X Frost Damage (small amount for balance) and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds.

That's how I would approach the situation at least.

Frost staff already overwhelmed by completely different set of abilities and passives compare to inferno and lightning variations, adding even more functionality on top of that would make it unnecessary overloaded and potentially overpowered, especially for pvp. Currently you get access to major+minor malm, minor brittle, immobilizes, damage shields, minor protection, reduced cost of blocking and additional damage mitigation, conversion to magicka cost for blocking. Most of them not as good for pve damage dealers, but if a weapon provides all that utility and deal just about the same damage as other types of staves, then you’d have different balancing problems. In pvp it’s solid option as it is.

If you’re balancing for all types of content you either need to sacrifice tanking utility or leave it as tank weapon and stop forcing its use for other roles.

Agreed, it's getting too much value as a CC and Damage weapon because ZOS wants it to be for both. The real problems for Frost vs Fire vs Shock stems from sets, debuffs, status effects and morphs. Fire outclasses not only Frost, but also Shock, so buffing Frost staves to catch up to Fire is the wrong approach. Fire should be brought down.

Encratis and DK's debuff need to be looked at. Change Encratis to Shock/Fire/Frost or something new. Give Warden and Sorc their own +6% element damage taken bonuses, there should be more unique purposes to bring different sub classes in a trial than minor prophecy or minor toughness.

Burning vs Chilled vs Concussed is fine the way it is, not everything needs to be DPS related and the additional debuffs are beneficial in the right content. If anything, some Warden/Sorc passives for increased damage with their respective status effects would be the best approach like how DK gets 50% poisoned/burning damage.

For the staff passives what I would do:

Penetrating Magic:

• Renamed to Defensive Magic
• Remove 10% penetration for Destruction staff abilities
• Add blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina
• Passive becomes completely optional and is now available for Frost/Shock/Flame staves

Tri Focus:

• Remove blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina from Frost Staff
• Buff Frost heavy damage shield from 4k to 6-8k
• Fire/Shock bonuses remain the same

Elemental Force:

• Add increases penetration by X amount when holding a Destruction staff instead of a % for only Destruction staff abilities
• 100% status effect chance remains

Yes.. Ancient Knowledge doesn't increase Frost Staff damage like Fire/Shock, but Minor Brittle is an unwritten passive, it's free. You can think of it as an Ancient Knowledge bonus because clearly it was modeled after it. The cost reduction and increased mitigation is massive for any build, not just tanking. Fair trade imo. Also, every staff type can convert their block cost to magicka optionally, but Frost would still do it best due to the reduced cost and increased mitigation. Win/win.

You’re hired.

I like everything but the penetration for destructive staff ability change for any skill.

Currently the reason elemental weapon (psijic line) and crushing shock are a toss up (roughly equal in damage and ability) is due to the armor piercing on crushing shock. They’re balanced. You can use either and not miss out.

If you apply that 10% pen buff to all skills, then ele weapon becomes the better skill in every situation.

MashmalloMan

Minalan wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

There is actually a lot to this. Warden has options for tanking that are insanely varied. You can (easily!) tank with 2 froststaffs nowadays because gear setups / hybridization allow for it. Of course you will get outperformed by the classic meta setups. But "frost tanking", in regards to being a storm or debuffing for extra damage (coral aerie set that gives 2k+ ice damage every light attack from other players or so?) is really fun and still surprisingly effective.

So I'd too say: no, don't remove frost as a tank-element. Why? What for? That never was a real issue.
And the more I read about the whole "change Warden into a frost class", the more I feel this is the wrong move. Warden skill set in terms of "elements" is good as is. Visuals are fine enough. What we lack is proper numbers / power in our kit and good feeling in regards of "feedback" - I still hate pushing a button to see it go off after 3 and another 6 seconds.

If Zos is going to force Wardens, or at least give the appearance that Frost Staff is the best way to do damage on Warden, then Frost Staff itself needs to be more comparable as a DPS Option. That's the whole point of this post, making Frost Staff a better DPS Option while simultaneously not removing Tanking Options on Destruction Staff through adding a new Passive. I really think this is the best way that Zos can make both parties happy.

With the new Passive though, it would open up gaps in Frost Staff to make it better, such as with Ancient Knowledge, it could be you get extra Crit Chance while having a Frost Staff Equipped. For Tri-focus it could be adjusted a little bit as well, Fully-charged Ice Staff Heavy Attacks grants you a damage shield that absorbs 4000 damage. While this Damage shield is active, enemies that deal damage to the shield are dealt X Frost Damage (small amount for balance) and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds.

That's how I would approach the situation at least.

Frost staff already overwhelmed by completely different set of abilities and passives compare to inferno and lightning variations, adding even more functionality on top of that would make it unnecessary overloaded and potentially overpowered, especially for pvp. Currently you get access to major+minor malm, minor brittle, immobilizes, damage shields, minor protection, reduced cost of blocking and additional damage mitigation, conversion to magicka cost for blocking. Most of them not as good for pve damage dealers, but if a weapon provides all that utility and deal just about the same damage as other types of staves, then you’d have different balancing problems. In pvp it’s solid option as it is.

If you’re balancing for all types of content you either need to sacrifice tanking utility or leave it as tank weapon and stop forcing its use for other roles.

Agreed, it's getting too much value as a CC and Damage weapon because ZOS wants it to be for both. The real problems for Frost vs Fire vs Shock stems from sets, debuffs, status effects and morphs. Fire outclasses not only Frost, but also Shock, so buffing Frost staves to catch up to Fire is the wrong approach. Fire should be brought down.

Encratis and DK's debuff need to be looked at. Change Encratis to Shock/Fire/Frost or something new. Give Warden and Sorc their own +6% element damage taken bonuses, there should be more unique purposes to bring different sub classes in a trial than minor prophecy or minor toughness.

Burning vs Chilled vs Concussed is fine the way it is, not everything needs to be DPS related and the additional debuffs are beneficial in the right content. If anything, some Warden/Sorc passives for increased damage with their respective status effects would be the best approach like how DK gets 50% poisoned/burning damage.

For the staff passives what I would do:

Penetrating Magic:

• Renamed to Defensive Magic
• Remove 10% penetration for Destruction staff abilities
• Add blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina
• Passive becomes completely optional and is now available for Frost/Shock/Flame staves

Tri Focus:

• Remove blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina from Frost Staff
• Buff Frost heavy damage shield from 4k to 6-8k
• Fire/Shock bonuses remain the same

Elemental Force:

• Add increases penetration by X amount when holding a Destruction staff instead of a % for only Destruction staff abilities
• 100% status effect chance remains

Yes.. Ancient Knowledge doesn't increase Frost Staff damage like Fire/Shock, but Minor Brittle is an unwritten passive, it's free. You can think of it as an Ancient Knowledge bonus because clearly it was modeled after it. The cost reduction and increased mitigation is massive for any build, not just tanking. Fair trade imo. Also, every staff type can convert their block cost to magicka optionally, but Frost would still do it best due to the reduced cost and increased mitigation. Win/win.

You’re hired.

I like everything but the penetration for destructive staff ability change for any skill.

Currently the reason elemental weapon (psijic line) and crushing shock are a toss up (roughly equal in damage and ability) is due to the armor piercing on crushing shock. They’re balanced. You can use either and not miss out.

If you apply that 10% pen buff to all skills, then ele weapon becomes the better skill in every situation.

Great point, bit too much of a buff stick and is the exact same problem we've been highlighting about the new 8% for holding a frost staff problem.

The main thing is a raw value over 10%, because that 10% ends up being 200-400 pen in pve and tops 1000-2000 pen in pvp.

Frankly, the staff doesn't need it. If you compare to other weapons, there is a patten of 1-2 passives effecting everything you do (Ancient Knowledge + Elemental Force) vs buffing the weapon line itself (Penetrating Magic). Only exception is Bow with Crit Chance and 2 weapon effecting passives, but we all know it's rarely the best front bar ranged weapon over the years and I'd argue one of those passives should update to all damage dealt.

Adjusted original comment.

Minalan

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

Arthtur wrote: »

tonyblack wrote: »

Honestly, the best way to fix frost staff as viable damage option is to decouple all tank utility and give to 1h and shield (the skill line intended for tanks). Give one morph of gap closer aoe dot similar to stampede to proc enchantments and add passive that double the strength of enchantment if you using shield. That would make tanking with double barred 1h and shield viable and get rid of awkward frost staff tanking, which shouldn’t be a thing to begin with. Than it would easier to determine how to differentiate staff types between each other and open them for specific niches in destruction. Because as of right now it seems like devs afraid to overbuff it for pvp where tank utility could be stupidly broken, leaving frost staff severely underpowered in most pve situations with subpar skills and passives intended for tanks, but not for dd.

Yeah, lets make tanking more boring because DDs wants more. /s

What's next? "Why there is no tanks in game?"?
On my tank ice staff is the main weapon. Its a lot more fun using ice staff for tanking instead of s&b. The only reason i have s&b is minor breach and stamina regen on HA. If i could get those in diffrent way i wouldnt even bother to take it. So yeah, u literally would kill my fun that i have when playing as a tank.

I have no problem with making ice staff good for damage as long as it doesnt affects tanks. No forced cp, no farming new weapon, no reducing amount of our tools etc.
Warden literally is getting pushed to use 1 weapon type at the cost of everyone else. Tanks dont need that treatment.

There is actually a lot to this. Warden has options for tanking that are insanely varied. You can (easily!) tank with 2 froststaffs nowadays because gear setups / hybridization allow for it. Of course you will get outperformed by the classic meta setups. But "frost tanking", in regards to being a storm or debuffing for extra damage (coral aerie set that gives 2k+ ice damage every light attack from other players or so?) is really fun and still surprisingly effective.

So I'd too say: no, don't remove frost as a tank-element. Why? What for? That never was a real issue.
And the more I read about the whole "change Warden into a frost class", the more I feel this is the wrong move. Warden skill set in terms of "elements" is good as is. Visuals are fine enough. What we lack is proper numbers / power in our kit and good feeling in regards of "feedback" - I still hate pushing a button to see it go off after 3 and another 6 seconds.

If Zos is going to force Wardens, or at least give the appearance that Frost Staff is the best way to do damage on Warden, then Frost Staff itself needs to be more comparable as a DPS Option. That's the whole point of this post, making Frost Staff a better DPS Option while simultaneously not removing Tanking Options on Destruction Staff through adding a new Passive. I really think this is the best way that Zos can make both parties happy.

With the new Passive though, it would open up gaps in Frost Staff to make it better, such as with Ancient Knowledge, it could be you get extra Crit Chance while having a Frost Staff Equipped. For Tri-focus it could be adjusted a little bit as well, Fully-charged Ice Staff Heavy Attacks grants you a damage shield that absorbs 4000 damage. While this Damage shield is active, enemies that deal damage to the shield are dealt X Frost Damage (small amount for balance) and are slowed by 50% for 3 seconds.

That's how I would approach the situation at least.

Frost staff already overwhelmed by completely different set of abilities and passives compare to inferno and lightning variations, adding even more functionality on top of that would make it unnecessary overloaded and potentially overpowered, especially for pvp. Currently you get access to major+minor malm, minor brittle, immobilizes, damage shields, minor protection, reduced cost of blocking and additional damage mitigation, conversion to magicka cost for blocking. Most of them not as good for pve damage dealers, but if a weapon provides all that utility and deal just about the same damage as other types of staves, then you’d have different balancing problems. In pvp it’s solid option as it is.

If you’re balancing for all types of content you either need to sacrifice tanking utility or leave it as tank weapon and stop forcing its use for other roles.

Agreed, it's getting too much value as a CC and Damage weapon because ZOS wants it to be for both. The real problems for Frost vs Fire vs Shock stems from sets, debuffs, status effects and morphs. Fire outclasses not only Frost, but also Shock, so buffing Frost staves to catch up to Fire is the wrong approach. Fire should be brought down.

Encratis and DK's debuff need to be looked at. Change Encratis to Shock/Fire/Frost or something new. Give Warden and Sorc their own +6% element damage taken bonuses, there should be more unique purposes to bring different sub classes in a trial than minor prophecy or minor toughness.

Burning vs Chilled vs Concussed is fine the way it is, not everything needs to be DPS related and the additional debuffs are beneficial in the right content. If anything, some Warden/Sorc passives for increased damage with their respective status effects would be the best approach like how DK gets 50% poisoned/burning damage.

For the staff passives what I would do:

Penetrating Magic:

• Renamed to Defensive Magic
• Remove 10% penetration for Destruction staff abilities
• Add blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina
• Passive becomes completely optional and is now available for Frost/Shock/Flame staves

Tri Focus:

• Remove blocking now costs magicka, instead of stamina from Frost Staff
• Buff Frost heavy damage shield from 4k to 6-8k
• Fire/Shock bonuses remain the same

Elemental Force:

• Add increases penetration by X amount when holding a Destruction staff instead of a % for only Destruction staff abilities
• 100% status effect chance remains

Yes.. Ancient Knowledge doesn't increase Frost Staff damage like Fire/Shock, but Minor Brittle is an unwritten passive, it's free. You can think of it as an Ancient Knowledge bonus because clearly it was modeled after it. The cost reduction and increased mitigation is massive for any build, not just tanking. Fair trade imo. Also, every staff type can convert their block cost to magicka optionally, but Frost would still do it best due to the reduced cost and increased mitigation. Win/win.

You’re hired.

I like everything but the penetration for destructive staff ability change for any skill.

Currently the reason elemental weapon (psijic line) and crushing shock are a toss up (roughly equal in damage and ability) is due to the armor piercing on crushing shock. They’re balanced. You can use either and not miss out.

If you apply that 10% pen buff to all skills, then ele weapon becomes the better skill in every situation.

Great point, bit too much of a buff stick and is the exact same problem we've been highlighting about the new 8% for holding a frost staff problem.

The main thing is a raw value over 10%, because that 10% ends up being 200-400 pen in pve and tops 1000-2000 pen in pvp.

Frankly, the staff doesn't need it. If you compare to other weapons, there is a patten of 1-2 passives effecting everything you do (Ancient Knowledge + Elemental Force) vs buffing the weapon line itself (Penetrating Magic). Only exception is Bow with Crit Chance and 2 weapon effecting passives, but we all know it's rarely the best front bar ranged weapon over the years and I'd argue one of those passives should update to all damage dealt.

Adjusted original comment.

That little bit of pen on crushing shock is pretty important to the magsorc class that struggles to hit 8K pen and only does so because of light armor passives and sharpened weapons.

I also think the tri-focus damage bonus (8% single target for fire, 8% AOE for lightning) should be just 8% for magicka attacks (AOE or Single Target). That would let people use whatever staff they want to that works with their class kit.

For example, Magicka sorc passives are supposed to work with lightning (Energized Passive). We should be using a lightning staff (and I would love to) because it would buff light and heavy attacks, but our class damage skills are mostly single target. So we all use the fire staff to hit harder with elemental weapon, crushing shock, frags, and overload (which double benefits from fire staff + energized).