U36 kills Non-Frost Warden PvP builds

wuuzzum

These Warden changes are devastating to current Magdens and will firmly place Magden as the least flexible class in PvP.

Currently with Magden, they have more Magic Damage moves than any other class, and can utilize War Maidens very effectively, then use Dual-Wield to get a much needed buff in damage.

With these changes, it will railroad Wardens into using a frost staff, removing a lot of that extra needed damage.

As much as the Advanced Species was bemoaned by the community for its lack of utility in PvE, in PvP it was a much appreciated buff as it pushed Warden to be an armor shredding class.

Now, with Crit damage, it feels misplaced? Warden is not necessarily made for Crits the way Sorc or NB is, and just kinda feels like a goofy selection.

Please re-consider these warden nerfs!

Frost Wardens are already incredibly strong with the Master Staff. If you want more Frost Wardens, make the frost skills or the Destruction Staff skills better, these changes will only make players abandon the class.

Mr_Stach

I stated last patch that making Winter's Revenge being buffed by Frost Staff led to a dangerous precedent which we are seeing now.

Tying a skill directly to a weapon limits variety. You can basically ONLY use Winter's Revenge with Destro now, which for people who were already running it is no big deal, but for anyone else they do not have the choice, they either use destro, or they do not use Winter's Revenge.

I also don't think this implies anything for future development, i don't think they will lean into other weapon combos in the future.

Weapon Skills and Class Skills should work independently of each other. This was the same reason that when someone suggested that Warden have a passive that increased the effectiveness of Ice Staff, I advised a different direction because it should not be a classes job to patch up a weapons shortcomings and vice-versa.

Just let Winter's Revenge be good on it's own. It should not need a Destro Staff Hoop to jump through. I'm not opposed to the outcome, I'm opposed to the method and mindset.

Zos has turned that issue from U35 up to 11.

Also I do want to point out that I personally think that if Warden wants to really be taken to the next level, there needs to be some shifting in focus. I'm of the mindset that Magic Damage should altogether be abandoned and Warden should focus on Frost and Bleed, much like DK focuses on Fire and Poison or Sorc (kind of) focuses on Lightning and Physical.

But this change doesn't even help Frost Wardens as much as it implies. It just hurts them less than other setups. DW/Fire Staff still outperforms it. DW/2H is on par with it.

It's a mess and I don't know how Zos is going to fix it or if their fix will make it better or worse.

Also Advanced Species, switching from something that is easily capped to something else that is easily capped is not better. I would switch it to straight wd/sd or crit chance.

IAmIcehouse

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I stated last patch that making Winter's Revenge being buffed by Frost Staff led to a dangerous precedent which we are seeing now.

Tying a skill directly to a weapon limits variety. You can basically ONLY use Winter's Revenge with Destro now, which for people who were already running it is no big deal, but for anyone else they do not have the choice, they either use destro, or they do not use Winter's Revenge.

I also don't think this implies anything for future development, i don't think they will lean into other weapon combos in the future.

Weapon Skills and Class Skills should work independently of each other. This was the same reason that when someone suggested that Warden have a passive that increased the effectiveness of Ice Staff, I advised a different direction because it should not be a classes job to patch up a weapons shortcomings and vice-versa.

Just let Winter's Revenge be good on it's own. It should not need a Destro Staff Hoop to jump through. I'm not opposed to the outcome, I'm opposed to the method and mindset.

Zos has turned that issue from U35 up to 11.

Also I do want to point out that I personally think that if Warden wants to really be taken to the next level, there needs to be some shifting in focus. I'm of the mindset that Magic Damage should altogether be abandoned and Warden should focus on Frost and Bleed, much like DK focuses on Fire and Poison or Sorc (kind of) focuses on Lightning and Physical.

But this change doesn't even help Frost Wardens as much as it implies. It just hurts them less than other setups. DW/Fire Staff still outperforms it. DW/2H is on par with it.

It's a mess and I don't know how Zos is going to fix it or if their fix will make it better or worse.

Also Advanced Species, switching from something that is easily capped to something else that is easily capped is not better. I would switch it to straight wd/sd or crit chance.

I agree with the change from pen->crit damage is just a “take our problem and move it somewhere else” change. %dmg (original) or WD/SD should be the change. NB Already has the crit chance per skill passive and we are already losing class identity every patch, keep that buff off Warden for that reason alone

LeHarrt91

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I stated last patch that making Winter's Revenge being buffed by Frost Staff led to a dangerous precedent which we are seeing now.

Tying a skill directly to a weapon limits variety. You can basically ONLY use Winter's Revenge with Destro now, which for people who were already running it is no big deal, but for anyone else they do not have the choice, they either use destro, or they do not use Winter's Revenge.

I also don't think this implies anything for future development, i don't think they will lean into other weapon combos in the future.

Weapon Skills and Class Skills should work independently of each other. This was the same reason that when someone suggested that Warden have a passive that increased the effectiveness of Ice Staff, I advised a different direction because it should not be a classes job to patch up a weapons shortcomings and vice-versa.

Just let Winter's Revenge be good on it's own. It should not need a Destro Staff Hoop to jump through. I'm not opposed to the outcome, I'm opposed to the method and mindset.

Zos has turned that issue from U35 up to 11.

Also I do want to point out that I personally think that if Warden wants to really be taken to the next level, there needs to be some shifting in focus. I'm of the mindset that Magic Damage should altogether be abandoned and Warden should focus on Frost and Bleed, much like DK focuses on Fire and Poison or Sorc (kind of) focuses on Lightning and Physical.

But this change doesn't even help Frost Wardens as much as it implies. It just hurts them less than other setups. DW/Fire Staff still outperforms it. DW/2H is on par with it.

It's a mess and I don't know how Zos is going to fix it or if their fix will make it better or worse.

Also Advanced Species, switching from something that is easily capped to something else that is easily capped is not better. I would switch it to straight wd/sd or crit chance.

I agree with the change from pen->crit damage is just a “take our problem and move it somewhere else” change. %dmg (original) or WD/SD should be the change. NB Already has the crit chance per skill passive and we are already losing class identity every patch, keep that buff off Warden for that reason alone

But Sorcs get Wp/Sp % per ANY sorc skill slotted so it would be taking identity from them. It truly is a hard thing to try and balance. But i dont think there is a single warden that wouldnt mind the % damage done back.

IAmIcehouse

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I stated last patch that making Winter's Revenge being buffed by Frost Staff led to a dangerous precedent which we are seeing now.

Tying a skill directly to a weapon limits variety. You can basically ONLY use Winter's Revenge with Destro now, which for people who were already running it is no big deal, but for anyone else they do not have the choice, they either use destro, or they do not use Winter's Revenge.

I also don't think this implies anything for future development, i don't think they will lean into other weapon combos in the future.

Weapon Skills and Class Skills should work independently of each other. This was the same reason that when someone suggested that Warden have a passive that increased the effectiveness of Ice Staff, I advised a different direction because it should not be a classes job to patch up a weapons shortcomings and vice-versa.

Just let Winter's Revenge be good on it's own. It should not need a Destro Staff Hoop to jump through. I'm not opposed to the outcome, I'm opposed to the method and mindset.

Zos has turned that issue from U35 up to 11.

Also I do want to point out that I personally think that if Warden wants to really be taken to the next level, there needs to be some shifting in focus. I'm of the mindset that Magic Damage should altogether be abandoned and Warden should focus on Frost and Bleed, much like DK focuses on Fire and Poison or Sorc (kind of) focuses on Lightning and Physical.

But this change doesn't even help Frost Wardens as much as it implies. It just hurts them less than other setups. DW/Fire Staff still outperforms it. DW/2H is on par with it.

It's a mess and I don't know how Zos is going to fix it or if their fix will make it better or worse.

Also Advanced Species, switching from something that is easily capped to something else that is easily capped is not better. I would switch it to straight wd/sd or crit chance.

I agree with the change from pen->crit damage is just a “take our problem and move it somewhere else” change. %dmg (original) or WD/SD should be the change. NB Already has the crit chance per skill passive and we are already losing class identity every patch, keep that buff off Warden for that reason alone

But Sorcs get Wp/Sp % per ANY sorc skill slotted so it would be taking identity from them. It truly is a hard thing to try and balance. But i dont think there is a single warden that wouldnt mind the % damage done back.

Sorc is a named buff that goes to the entire group, minor prophecy. Similar to NBs named buff that goes to group, minor savagery.

NB also has a skill that is crit per skill on bar. This is unique to Nightblade. Let's stop cookie cutting skills/passives and bringing them to every class.

IAmIcehouse

Ah I misread, you're talking about the expert mage passive. I genuinely forgot that was a passive.

LeHarrt91

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Ah I misread, you're talking about the expert mage passive. I genuinely forgot that was a passive.

hahaha all good, yes its easy to forget it.

GrigorijMalahevich

Make Magicka morph of Scorch do Frost Damage.

Warmaiden is bad for the warden, my friend, you need to work on your theorycrafting a bit.

Klingenlied

wuuzzum wrote: »

These Warden changes are devastating to current Magdens and will firmly place Magden as the least flexible class in PvP.

Currently with Magden, they have more Magic Damage moves than any other class, and can utilize War Maidens very effectively, then use Dual-Wield to get a much needed buff in damage.

With these changes, it will railroad Wardens into using a frost staff, removing a lot of that extra needed damage.

As much as the Advanced Species was bemoaned by the community for its lack of utility in PvE, in PvP it was a much appreciated buff as it pushed Warden to be an armor shredding class.

Now, with Crit damage, it feels misplaced? Warden is not necessarily made for Crits the way Sorc or NB is, and just kinda feels like a goofy selection.

Please re-consider these warden nerfs!

Frost Wardens are already incredibly strong with the Master Staff. If you want more Frost Wardens, make the frost skills or the Destruction Staff skills better, these changes will only make players abandon the class.

Reality is: this will be a roughly 10% damage nerf overall for most PvP builds - and this will be "no matter what" - not associated with the Ice staff. This is due to the fact that we lose out on 10% frost and 10% magic damage and get compensated with only 2% overall damage.

I wonder why people don't get this. 8% more damage with Ice staff by itself is not bad - it does make Ice "almost" equal to the other choices in terms of dps - not better! It is very strong for PvP however in regards to the defensive extra-power, i give you this.

But Warden is in a very weird spot right now. Survivability is top notch. Warden has incredible self heal and depending on how smart you play / build with your team, even sustain is good. Warden does miss out on damage and on "real execute combos" - because even with the stun, Warden has a incredible hard time finishing off good players. But well, PvP is a team game. And players are not used to beefy Wardens sticking with their mates, supporting them (because of course a Warden is extremely nice to have in a group!) and now more then ever they stick to you and pressure you without you being able to fight back as easily as you once could.

So the issue is not the more frost staff damage. The issue is overall low damage and a weird reception by players of what Warden actually does - and does not.

To make it as simple as possible: Right now, with U35, Warden is missing in power! We need no different power allocation. We need buffs. So +8% ice staff damage? It is giving Warden a new option. It is no buff! Converting 10% magic and 10% frost damage into 2% all damage? That is a nerf, not needed! Changing penetration in crit damage? A change in power allocation once again - needs be reverted to the old 2% damage!

Easy fix? Passive gives 8% all damage, 16% with ice staff equipped. Icy Aura increases damage from chilled status effect. Animal companion back to old.
Result of all of this? Warden will parse good again. Warden will still not perform as a top dd in content - but well enough. Warden will be very strong in PvP due to Arctic Blast now. Just remove stun & convert heal into damage and people will happily resume killing Wardens once again.

Then we would only needa rework birds, shalks, sustain passive, netch, portal morph & and the useless swing heal.

YandereGirlfriend

If we don't get a substantial revision/rollback of this passive... it will be very bleak.

BahometZ

I don't know whose idea the latest warden changes have been but get them away from the warden asap.

ESO_Nightingale

BahometZ wrote: »

I don't know whose idea the latest warden changes have been but get them away from the warden asap.

As someone who deeply wants frost dps to be a thing, I still want to frame this quote on my wall lmfao. The repercussions weren't thought of when they made these changes.

wuuzzum

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

Make Magicka morph of Scorch do Frost Damage.

Warmaiden is bad for the warden, my friend, you need to work on your theorycrafting a bit.

You can use it to buff literally every offensive skill in the wardens arsenal.

With the Pen the warden can receive rn, b4b can hit like an absolute truck. Slap the bear on there, you’re going to be smashing through >35k tooltips on your execute. With War Maiden you can easily smash through 20k tooltips on almost every skill

ESO_Nightingale

wuuzzum wrote: »

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

Make Magicka morph of Scorch do Frost Damage.

Warmaiden is bad for the warden, my friend, you need to work on your theorycrafting a bit.

You can use it to buff literally every offensive skill in the wardens arsenal.

With the Pen the warden can receive rn, b4b can hit like an absolute truck. Slap the bear on there, you’re going to be smashing through >35k tooltips on your execute. With War Maiden you can easily smash through 20k tooltips on almost every skill

it doesn't buff winter's revenge/arctic blast or any weapon skill though, this really lowers it's effective power to lower than that of a lot of other better sets. it also doesn't buff any non magic damage proc set either, nor does it increase healing in pvp.

Lughlongarm

wuuzzum wrote: »

These Warden changes are devastating to current Magdens and will firmly place Magden as the least flexible class in PvP.

Currently with Magden, they have more Magic Damage moves than any other class, and can utilize War Maidens very effectively, then use Dual-Wield to get a much needed buff in damage.

With these changes, it will railroad Wardens into using a frost staff, removing a lot of that extra needed damage.

As much as the Advanced Species was bemoaned by the community for its lack of utility in PvE, in PvP it was a much appreciated buff as it pushed Warden to be an armor shredding class.

Now, with Crit damage, it feels misplaced? Warden is not necessarily made for Crits the way Sorc or NB is, and just kinda feels like a goofy selection.

Please re-consider these warden nerfs!

Frost Wardens are already incredibly strong with the Master Staff. If you want more Frost Wardens, make the frost skills or the Destruction Staff skills better, these changes will only make players abandon the class.

From what I have observed, stamina wardens top tier ATM and even been called meta by some. I have more or less predicted this trend during the previous PTS cycle while many wardens claimed that the change to scorch will "kill" wardens in PvP. So no, it hasn't killed Wardens, the upcoming change will not effect much as well. Stamdens traded 10% damage on scroch only to 2% from all sources. And BTW, frost wardens are not a thing at all in PVP(BG maybe) and master staff is not that great if you consider the opportunity cost of front bar set/ back bar set, set up.

When it comes to PVE, I have no clue.
BTW, I don't think this passive change is good in terms of game design, but when it comes to actual functionality, i think it's Ok.

Dottzgaming

Saying the upcoming warden changes are bad is putting it mildly. Wanted to finally revisit magden after not playing it in a long time and actually have enjoyed it in u35, just to check the notes for u36 and see that its being kneecapped super hard.

No idea why this class is being nerfed so hard. 0 reason.

wuuzzum

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

wuuzzum wrote: »

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

Make Magicka morph of Scorch do Frost Damage.

Warmaiden is bad for the warden, my friend, you need to work on your theorycrafting a bit.

You can use it to buff literally every offensive skill in the wardens arsenal.

With the Pen the warden can receive rn, b4b can hit like an absolute truck. Slap the bear on there, you’re going to be smashing through >35k tooltips on your execute. With War Maiden you can easily smash through 20k tooltips on almost every skill

it doesn't buff winter's revenge/arctic blast or any weapon skill though, this really lowers it's effective power to lower than that of a lot of other better sets. it also doesn't buff any non magic damage proc set either, nor does it increase healing in pvp.

You don’t need the healing on the warden, and I don’t run any weapon skills.

Back 4 blood, scorch, bear, bird, fletchlings, all magic damage. I’m not saying War Maiden is optimal power, but to have 600 dmg with 100% uptime on your front bar is very good. Especially with the 10% magic damage

Caribou77

^^ Agree 100%


I think PVP vs PVE perspectives are skewing this one.

In PVP, War Maiden + Deep Fissure, Fetcher Flies, etc (and Advanced Species) was a pretty good tool for getting some spell damage, considering the Warden's offensive skills are much slower and trickier to use than Meta (or most other) classes.

Yiko

Lughlongarm wrote: »

wuuzzum wrote: »

These Warden changes are devastating to current Magdens and will firmly place Magden as the least flexible class in PvP.

Currently with Magden, they have more Magic Damage moves than any other class, and can utilize War Maidens very effectively, then use Dual-Wield to get a much needed buff in damage.

With these changes, it will railroad Wardens into using a frost staff, removing a lot of that extra needed damage.

As much as the Advanced Species was bemoaned by the community for its lack of utility in PvE, in PvP it was a much appreciated buff as it pushed Warden to be an armor shredding class.

Now, with Crit damage, it feels misplaced? Warden is not necessarily made for Crits the way Sorc or NB is, and just kinda feels like a goofy selection.

Please re-consider these warden nerfs!

Frost Wardens are already incredibly strong with the Master Staff. If you want more Frost Wardens, make the frost skills or the Destruction Staff skills better, these changes will only make players abandon the class.

From what I have observed, stamina wardens top tier ATM and even been called meta by some. I have more or less predicted this trend during the previous PTS cycle while many wardens claimed that the change to scorch will "kill" wardens in PvP. So no, it hasn't killed Wardens, the upcoming change will not effect much as well. Stamdens traded 10% damage on scroch only to 2% from all sources. And BTW, frost wardens are not a thing at all in PVP(BG maybe) and master staff is not that great if you consider the opportunity cost of front bar set/ back bar set, set up.

When it comes to PVE, I have no clue.
BTW, I don't think this passive change is good in terms of game design, but when it comes to actual functionality, i think it's Ok.

Except stamdens are also losing pen from Advanced Species for CHD, losing 10% CHD from Chilled application (which is actually pretty high value and mega slept on), and losing 8% dmg on one of their most integral abilities. The buffed to Chilled won't really do much for stamdens, so wholly it's just a series of nerfs to a class that is already not amazing offensively against people that know what they're doing.

Also, Master Ice Staff is incredibly busted if you build correctly.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I stated last patch that making Winter's Revenge being buffed by Frost Staff led to a dangerous precedent which we are seeing now.

Tying a skill directly to a weapon limits variety. You can basically ONLY use Winter's Revenge with Destro now, which for people who were already running it is no big deal, but for anyone else they do not have the choice, they either use destro, or they do not use Winter's Revenge.

I also don't think this implies anything for future development, i don't think they will lean into other weapon combos in the future.

Weapon Skills and Class Skills should work independently of each other. This was the same reason that when someone suggested that Warden have a passive that increased the effectiveness of Ice Staff, I advised a different direction because it should not be a classes job to patch up a weapons shortcomings and vice-versa.

Just let Winter's Revenge be good on it's own. It should not need a Destro Staff Hoop to jump through. I'm not opposed to the outcome, I'm opposed to the method and mindset.

Zos has turned that issue from U35 up to 11.

Also I do want to point out that I personally think that if Warden wants to really be taken to the next level, there needs to be some shifting in focus. I'm of the mindset that Magic Damage should altogether be abandoned and Warden should focus on Frost and Bleed, much like DK focuses on Fire and Poison or Sorc (kind of) focuses on Lightning and Physical.

But this change doesn't even help Frost Wardens as much as it implies. It just hurts them less than other setups. DW/Fire Staff still outperforms it. DW/2H is on par with it.

It's a mess and I don't know how Zos is going to fix it or if their fix will make it better or worse.

Also Advanced Species, switching from something that is easily capped to something else that is easily capped is not better. I would switch it to straight wd/sd or crit chance.

This is spot on. You are going from one capped stat to another. It doesn't help anything in PVE and in PVP, since pen really isnt capped, its absolutely a nerf. I don't know who is driving the boat, but I understand why people are jumping ship.

wuuzzum

I have stopped playing since these announcements. That’s just me personally, the ice changes announced in .2 will just make the changes I’ve talked about even worse. Just not for me right now

warich

The restricting warden to ice staff needs to be removed, now.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

warich wrote: »

The restricting warden to ice staff needs to be removed, now.

Just spit balling, but I wonder if they could open the Piercing Cold passive up a little bit. They could give bonus damage to both a frost staff or a Ice Enchant. You would still probably want a frost staff on one bar, as double barring the same enchant is not ideal, but it would be less restrictive. It would make it so you could also really benefit from a frosty sword, bow, or staff of another element. I think the theme of ice warden is cool, but this seems like it is too restrictive.

ESO_Nightingale

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

warich wrote: »

The restricting warden to ice staff needs to be removed, now.

Just spit balling, but I wonder if they could open the Piercing Cold passive up a little bit. They could give bonus damage to both a frost staff or a Ice Enchant. You would still probably want a frost staff on one bar, as double barring the same enchant is not ideal, but it would be less restrictive. It would make it so you could also really benefit from a frosty sword, bow, or staff of another element. I think the theme of ice warden is cool, but this seems like it is too restrictive.

I think if they wanted the ice staff restriction, it would be to everyone's benefit if there was a good base for the passive first that didn't require anything. Say 6% increased dmg done and +6% frost damage done. And then the stipulation of ice staff on top of that that says, while an ice staff is equipped, increases the frost damage bonus to 12 or like 16%. That way it'd actually work for the audience the way they may think it currently works, instead of just being a raw stat stick for all damage.

OBJnoob

Let me start off by saying I agree that the change is silly. No class should receive such meaningful benefits for equipping a specific weapon.

But I don't think its going to hurt PvP builds. Its going to force them to use an ice staff, sure, but lacking diversity and lacking strength are two different things.

What bothers me most is actually how strong its probably going to be. Why should you get increased damage while equipping a defensive weapon?? Get ready to see wardens in PvP, who are already plenty tsnky, front barring frost staves and back barring sword n shield. Block with both resources as needed. Heavy attack for resources as needed. And still have 10% extra damage done. Which basically matches the bonus to aoe for using a lightning staff and simultaneously matches the bonuses for using a flame staff.

So now you don't have to choose between aoe or single target focus anymore... Which was one problem wardens had. And I understand some people will miss war maidens but if we're being honest was being forced to use magic damage any different from being forced to use a certain weapon?

I mean... Just throw a frost staff on an oakensoul warden and let'r rip. Hmm, that might actually be a good idea.