Frenzied Momentum Bug

Trundik

Hello, dear devs. I'l post here a video with this weapon set test, where you can see how exactly it is bugged. Watch icons of Momentum and red axe (Frenzied Momentum) effects. I use morph with 20 sec cooldown, but skill works even without Momentum active for some time (40 seconds i think, like it should be with another morph). Also I agree with that thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/617789/molten-whip-should-proc-frenzied-momentum

Frenzied Momentum should work with whip, because it use stamina now.

And considering I do something helpfull here, please remove Yandir might trigger by heavy attack. It sucks. Really. REALLY. I bet, even Frenzied momentum, which i choosed to test exactly with curiosity to synergy with Yandir, won't change that fact. Its just massive dps loss, which make 630 wp activation POINTLESS.

My video with bug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paXHVH3dytE

Trundik

So I just checked it again and SURPRISE... The bug is still alive after 6 month.

Here is wording:

While Momentum is active, casting Stamina abilities while in combat generates a stack of Frenzied Momentum for 20 seconds, increasing your Weapon and Spell Damage by 30 up to 10 times. After 5 or more stacks, your next Heavy Attack consumes all stacks and releases a violent explosion of energy around you, dealing 1084 Physical Damage to all enemies within 8 meters, scaling off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.

Effect keeps pumping up after 20 seconds momentum duration is over, up to total 40 seconds, like if character have forward momentum learned (but she is not).

AND

it still doesn't work with DK whip. DK whip as we all know spends stamina for pretty long time, so it should work with that skill.

AND

despite Momentum is weapon skill and it actually does damage, when is modified by Frenzied Momentum set, it doesn't proc enchantments.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Necrotech_Master

in the U37 patch notes they definitively said that molten whip would NOT trigger anything that requires spending stamina as its still considered a magicka ability predominantly

from the patch notes:

• Molten Whip: Fixed an issue where this morph could fail to activate many conditional requirements that stated, “when casting an ability that costs Magicka or Stamina”. Note that conditional requirements that require only a Stamina ability specifically will still not fire, as this ability is predominantly Magicka oriented.

edit: bolded relevant part

Trundik

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

in the U37 patch notes they definitively said that molten whip would NOT trigger anything that requires spending stamina as its still considered a magicka ability predominantly

from the patch notes:

• Molten Whip: Fixed an issue where this morph could fail to activate many conditional requirements that stated, “when casting an ability that costs Magicka or Stamina”. Note that conditional requirements that require only a Stamina ability specifically will still not fire, as this ability is predominantly Magicka oriented.

edit: bolded relevant part

eh? Okay. But there is still 1 and 3 part.

virtus753

3: Momentum/Rally/Forward Momentum does not do damage, though? Unless I missed a very big change somewhere.

If you’re talking about the the proc of the Frenzied Momentum set not proccing enchantments, that’s because it is not a weapon ability or heavy/light attack itself. It is a set proc.

It’s just like Merciless Charge not proccing enchantments, whereas Stampede does. Even though Merciless Charge is additional damage caused by Stampede thanks to the Maelstrom set bonus, it isn’t technically a weapon skill itself.

ETA: To confirm, CMX registers the damage from Frenzied Momentum as "Frenzied Momentum," so the damage is a separate entry from the weapon skill and heavy attack. It should be exactly parallel to Merciless Charge.

virtus753

I cannot reproduce 1.

Using the base form of Momentum with both the non-perfected and perfected Vateshran greatswords, the weapon and spell damage stacks drop off immediately once Momentum ends at 20 seconds. They cannot be built up again until I recast Momentum. Same with Rally, which also lasts 20 seconds. Frenzied Momentum properly lasts 40 seconds with Forward Momentum.

I am checking the character screen to see the actual weapon/spell damage to verify when the effect ends.

ETA: continuing to check on this.

I can reproduce it now. Bug report filed.

silver1surfer69

virtus753 wrote: »

3: Momentum/Rally/Forward Momentum does not do damage, though? Unless I missed a very big change somewhere.

If you’re talking about the the proc of the Frenzied Momentum set not proccing enchantments, that’s because it is not a weapon ability or heavy/light attack itself. It is a set proc.

It’s just like Merciless Charge not proccing enchantments, whereas Stampede does. Even though Merciless Charge is additional damage caused by Stampede thanks to the Maelstrom set bonus, it isn’t technically a weapon skill itself.

ETA: To confirm, CMX registers the damage from Frenzied Momentum as "Frenzied Momentum," so the damage is a separate entry from the weapon skill and heavy attack. It should be exactly parallel to Merciless Charge.

It does not add so much information to the bug problem but this is due to the a proc cant proc another proc rule.

Trundik

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

3: Momentum/Rally/Forward Momentum does not do damage, though? Unless I missed a very big change somewhere.

ETA: To confirm, CMX registers the damage from Frenzied Momentum as "Frenzied Momentum," so the damage is a separate entry from the weapon skill and heavy attack. It should be exactly parallel to Merciless Charge.

It does not add so much information to the bug problem but this is due to the a proc cant proc another proc rule.

But this is unlogical. Arena sets modify skills itself. For example crushing wall, assasin's blade. They work in that logic. It can be coded in another way, but they must count this proc as proc of skill, not set. I can remember also one more case that should be tested just to be sure: sheer venom combined with assasin's blade. It should work too, but I have doubt that it does.

Btw in my local translation of game description of Frenzied momentum says not "Stamina ability", but "Ability that spends stamina", which is big difference in case of whip.

virtus753

Trundik wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

3: Momentum/Rally/Forward Momentum does not do damage, though? Unless I missed a very big change somewhere.

ETA: To confirm, CMX registers the damage from Frenzied Momentum as "Frenzied Momentum," so the damage is a separate entry from the weapon skill and heavy attack. It should be exactly parallel to Merciless Charge.

It does not add so much information to the bug problem but this is due to the a proc cant proc another proc rule.

But this is unlogical. Arena sets modify skills itself. For example crushing wall, assasin's blade. They work in that logic. It can be coded in another way, but they must count this proc as proc of skill, not set. I can remember also one more case that should be tested just to be sure: sheer venom combined with assasin's blade. It should work too, but I have doubt that it does.

Btw in my local translation of game description of Frenzied momentum says not "Stamina ability", but "Ability that spends stamina", which is big difference in case of whip.

Maelstrom’s destro increases the damage of wall itself, like you said. It does not add an additional line of damage with its own name. It is still wall, just buffed in terms of damage. Importantly for this discussion, that additional damage *does not* increase the chances of proccing a glyph. The frequency of glyphs going off is the same from wall with or without the Maelstrom staff.

Meanwhile, Frenzied Momentum cannot buff Momentum’s damage because Momentum does no damage. It is, however, consistent with other sets like it (e.g. Merciless Charge) in that its damage proc is not considered a weapon skill itself. Like Merciless Charge, it does not increase the chances of its pertinent skill activating a glyph.

Since sets like Maelstrom’s destro and Merciless Charge do not increase the chance to proc glyphs, why should Frenzied Momentum add the ability for Momentum to proc a glyph, which it is not able to do on its own? That would be inconsistent with the rest.

ETA: removed extraneous reference to status effects. When I say increase chances of proccing glyphs, I mean adding the opportunities for the glyphs to proc.

Trundik

@virtus753 I already answered why: because arena sets in my opinion intended to modify skills, not for add some procs. And in some range of cases they do. I tested malestorm 2hander myself before and I was disappointed, when I found that additional damage doesn't proc glyph. As for FM, I supposed to get some use of that set, considering it as way to have long duration backbar skill, that actually can proc glyph (because this is weapon skill that does damage, while it is modified). You get buff, that will explode for AoE damage. Blade cloak works same except that it doesn't disappear after proc.

virtus753

Trundik wrote: »

@virtus753 I already answered why: because arena sets in my opinion intended to modify skills, not for add some procs. And in some range of cases they do. I tested malestorm 2hander myself before and I was disappointed, when I found that additional damage doesn't proc glyph. As for FM, I supposed to get some use of that set, considering it as way to have long duration backbar skill, that actually can proc glyph (because this is weapon skill that does damage, while it is modified). You get buff, that will explode for AoE damage. Blade cloak works same except that it doesn't disappear after proc.

They all alter abilities. They just don’t all alter abilities the exact same way. Some increase damage. Others add their own damage. Still others add buffs. Some do multiple things. And that is fine, in my opinion. Not all ability-altering sets should do the same exact thing in the same exact way, imo. Variety is interesting. Genericness is not. And way too much in this game is becoming generic and samesy already for my tastes.

I also think there needs to be parity among these sets. I don’t think one ability-altering set should enable a functionality that no other ability-altering set provides, i.e. additional opportunities for glyph procs from the ability in question. In that, these sets are all consistent right now. Adding the ability to proc glyphs to Frenzied Momentum (and, to be consistent, to sets like Merciless Charge) would require a rebalancing of its budget, which would almost certainly entail nerfs for sets like those two. Meanwhile, Crushing Wall would not need to be touched or it would need to be wholly redesigned, since there is no way for it to add glyph procs the way it’s currently designed (nor the way it originally worked, since it was just buffing light attacks when wall was active on a target). So you’re going to end up with some sets that do add glyph procs and some that don’t unless you overhaul every ability-altering set.

That said, I would suggest putting your arguments for the change in a feedback report or in a thread in general discussion, in case the devs are at all open to redoing most of these sets to count as weapon skills (and adjusting their budgets accordingly). The way it works currently does not appear to be a bug, so feedback/suggestions about it are likely to get dismissed if they’re phrased as a bug report. I think general discussion also gets more views and will likely get a wider variety of feedback on the idea. I’d be curious to see what others think too.

Trundik

@virtus753

would require a rebalancing of its budget

Oh don't worry, Frenzied Momentum budget currently = 0

Nord_Raseri

The effect lasts 20 seconds after momentum ends because that's how it works. Same as maelstrom 2hander an brp dw. Every time you use a stam skill while momentum is active the 20 seconds refreshes. Maelstrom 2hander 10 second bleed continues 10 seconds after the lst tick of stampede damage. Brp dw proc also refreshes from the last tick of blade cloak. As you quoted yourself, "generates a stack of frenzied momentum for 20 seconds." working as intended.

Trundik

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

The effect lasts 20 seconds after momentum ends because that's how it works. Same as maelstrom 2hander an brp dw. Every time you use a stam skill while momentum is active the 20 seconds refreshes. Maelstrom 2hander 10 second bleed continues 10 seconds after the lst tick of stampede damage. Brp dw proc also refreshes from the last tick of blade cloak. As you quoted yourself, "generates a stack of frenzied momentum for 20 seconds." working as intended.

It refrshes while momentum not active You get new stacks after skill expires.

Nord_Raseri

Trundik wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

The effect lasts 20 seconds after momentum ends because that's how it works. Same as maelstrom 2hander an brp dw. Every time you use a stam skill while momentum is active the 20 seconds refreshes. Maelstrom 2hander 10 second bleed continues 10 seconds after the lst tick of stampede damage. Brp dw proc also refreshes from the last tick of blade cloak. As you quoted yourself, "generates a stack of frenzied momentum for 20 seconds." working as intended.

It refrshes while momentum not active You get new stacks after skill expires.

Ah. Was unaware of that. That may not be as working as intended then.