Racials

Stncold

Racial
Khajiit
Robustness: This passive now increases your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 90 at their final rank, rather than your Health Recovery by up to 100 and your Magicka and Stamina Recovery by up to 85.

I really hope this isn't it. Why do khajiit, who already have arguably the best passives, get a small buff while redguards and bosmer are in the dumpster and argonians aren't much better off?

MashmalloMan

Lets not throw Kahjiit under the bus, their passives are great, they're very versatile, but I wouldn't say their the best, just really balanced.

Redguards and Bosmer... oof. They are by far the worst. I have a post dating back to 2019 or whenever they made the changes saying the weapon cost reduction was a bad idea as we move farther and farther away from stamina builds relying on weapon skills.

That couldn't be any more the truth today with hybrid scaling and class kits being opened wide. Redguard is a complete joke.

Bosmer has some nice passives, they just need the regen boosted to like 300 like the Serpent Mundus, then the stealth detect changed to stealth. Fixed.

redlink1979

MashmalloMan wrote: »

(...) Redguard is a complete joke.(...)

5 years ago this was a race with strong passives. To balance the game, they completely nerfed the race to the ground.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/345258/pc-mac-patch-notes-v3-0-5-morrowind-amp-update-14#latest

Iron_Warrior

Agree man, it's sad to see khajiit getting a buff before the actual trash races

Finedaible

Ermahgerd, Khajiit got a marginal increase of 5 sustain and lost 10 hp regen. Time to panic everyone. /s

MashmalloMan

Finedaible wrote: »

Ermahgerd, Khajiit got a marginal increase of 5 sustain and lost 10 hp regen. Time to panic everyone. /s

I think it's more so that they even bothered with such a change when there is clearly underperforming races for years now.

How many people requested the stealth changes to be reverted on Wood Elf? 90 pages? 100? It was something ridiculous.

Iron_Warrior

Finedaible wrote: »

Ermahgerd, Khajiit got a marginal increase of 5 sustain and lost 10 hp regen. Time to panic everyone. /s

Can't you really understand the point of the thread? It's not about khajiit getting "busted" after this change. The point is that the devs bothered to do a racial change, and instead of touching one of races that are on bottom of the barrel, they buffed khajiit which is already one of the better races. I hope that made it clear!

Holycannoli

Finedaible wrote: »

Ermahgerd, Khajiit got a marginal increase of 5 sustain and lost 10 hp regen. Time to panic everyone. /s

Adding a totally inconsequential racial change when Redguard has needed changes for a long time.

Ratzkifal

That they even touched this feels almost spiteful from the devs towards us players considering how vocal the Bosmer community has been about "stealth vs detection". We've been told several times that the devs are happy with the current state of racials and are not considering to touch them again for now because they are focusing on other things now.
Yet here we are. What happened to leaving racial passives alone, ZOS? Why can't you fix Redguards, Bosmer, Argonians and Nords ZOS?
This balance change is so insignificant yet it goes against established rulesets - health boni are bigger than magicka/stamina boni. If you ask me this is one good example of the developers not having a unified vision, because clearly this was one dev who was bothered by the values not being the same and it's only a matter of months before another dev feels like making the Khajiit passive more in line with tristat glyphs.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Stncold wrote: »

Racial
Khajiit
Robustness: This passive now increases your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 90 at their final rank, rather than your Health Recovery by up to 100 and your Magicka and Stamina Recovery by up to 85.

I really hope this isn't it. Why do khajiit, who already have arguably the best passives, get a small buff while redguards and bosmer are in the dumpster and argonians aren't much better off?

Still standing by for Breton to get 10% spellcost reduction to match 5-piece standardization of Seducer crafted set when they made all numbers work multiplicative instead of additive.

FrancisCrawford

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Ermahgerd, Khajiit got a marginal increase of 5 sustain and lost 10 hp regen. Time to panic everyone. /s

I think it's more so that they even bothered with such a change when there is clearly underperforming races for years now.

How many people requested the stealth changes to be reverted on Wood Elf? 90 pages? 100? It was something ridiculous.

My only feline character is named "Grumpy Ex Wood Elf".

MashmalloMan

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

Ermahgerd, Khajiit got a marginal increase of 5 sustain and lost 10 hp regen. Time to panic everyone. /s

I think it's more so that they even bothered with such a change when there is clearly underperforming races for years now.

How many people requested the stealth changes to be reverted on Wood Elf? 90 pages? 100? It was something ridiculous.

My only feline character is named "Grumpy Ex Wood Elf".

Ahaha, thats sad, but great.

MashmalloMan

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Stncold wrote: »

Racial
Khajiit
Robustness: This passive now increases your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 90 at their final rank, rather than your Health Recovery by up to 100 and your Magicka and Stamina Recovery by up to 85.

I really hope this isn't it. Why do khajiit, who already have arguably the best passives, get a small buff while redguards and bosmer are in the dumpster and argonians aren't much better off?

Still standing by for Breton to get 10% spellcost reduction to match 5-piece standardization of Seducer crafted set when they made all numbers work multiplicative instead of additive.

Or how they gutted HP regen in pvp, standardized final set bonuses to 3x a standard 129 value as seen in sets like Trollking, Beekeeper and Endurance, yet left set pieces and Khajiit at the same abysmal 1:1 ratio as resource regen and damage values. Luckily the rest of the passives are solid so it doesn't matter, but it might as well not be there at this point.

Still don't understand why Serpent and Atro mundus stones are allowed to be 20% stronger than every other standardized stat value, yet Bosmer and 1-4 piece bonuses remain 1:1 at 129.

Let this be a lesson that ZOS doesn't follow spreadsheets as much as people think. At least not proficiently.

AlterBlika

Retguards may not be the best at dps, but they're great at soloing for their sustain which is literally endless. I love their weapon skills cost reduction and tons of sustain, as well as the buff to food duration. No point in orc/dunmer/whatever-meta-race, if you can't sustain it.

MashmalloMan

AlterBlika wrote: »

Retguards may not be the best at dps, but they're great at soloing for their sustain which is literally endless. I love their weapon skills cost reduction and tons of sustain, as well as the buff to food duration. No point in orc/dunmer/whatever-meta-race, if you can't sustain it.

I guarantee that Wood Elf not only matches, but outperforms Redguard given the proper circumstances which aren't rare to achieve. After hybridization most pve and some pvp builds use 1, maybe 2 weapon skills now, that being your back bar weapon aoe dot to proc enchants. Those skills were recently reduced in cost like Endless Hail to 2700 at base.

6 Med (-12%) x Templar (-5%) x Weapon Passive (-15%)
= 0.88 x 0.95 x 0.85
= 0.71
= 29% less cost
= 1928 cost for Endless Hail

6 Med (-12%) x Templar (-5%) x Weapon Passive (-15%) x Redguard (-8%)
= 0.88 x 0.95 x 0.85 x 0.92
= 0.65
= 35% less cost
= 1755 cost for Endless Hail

1928 - 1755 = 173

You're saving 173 stamina every 15s. That equates to 23 stamina every other second. A Wood Elf gets +258 stamina regen which can be multiplied by at least 50% with 5 Med/Major Endurance, a bare minimum. That is 387 stamina every other second.

Redguard additionally gets 1005 stamina back every 5s (when dealing damage). That equates to 402 stamina every other second, less if you consider it won't always proc exactly at 5s. It also doesn't work out of combat like Wood Elf's does.

Redguard: 402 + 23 = 425 every other second in combat with at least 1 weapon skill.
Wood Elf: 387 stamina every other second all the time.

Sure.. if you use like 5 weapon skills, it's possible RG may be better, but that has become so rare in the current context of the game. You're also missing out on 5% movement speed, 1k pen and stealth detect, just to get -15% snare reduction which doesn't behave as you would think in real content due to how it's calculated.

AlterBlika

MashmalloMan wrote: »

After hybridization most pve and some pvp builds use 1, maybe 2 weapon skills now, that being your back bar weapon aoe dot to proc enchants

You don't say. I mentioned soloing and when you're soloing you should focus on survivability. I use brawler + master 2h because nothing beats it when soloing. 1 target - damage is decent, 2+ targets - it outdamages all instant spammables. It also gives you a huge shield that can carry you through all vet vanilla content and maybe some dlc ones (although you should bring something more than 9-10k shield there). But it costs way more than an average instant spammable, so I basically save quite a huge amount of stamina every time I use it as a redguard. Ofc by soloing I mean harder content than soloing a WB or something. Templar's jabs should be close to this build, but I like NB and don't want to change classes just because of one skill.

I know that bosmer's stamina regen is very close to redguard's stamina proc. But this weapon skills cost reduction is a blessing for some niche builds. Plus, this stamina proc is not disabled when you're blocking, etc. My char also happens to be a tank, thanks to armory.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Sure.. if you use like 5 weapon skills, it's possible RG may be better, but that has become so rare in the current context of the game. You're also missing out on 5% movement speed, 1k pen and stealth detect, just to get -15% snare reduction which doesn't behave as you would think in real content due to how it's calculated.

I don't miss 1k pen. I hit the cap in group and solo content easily, so it's going to be a waste stat for me. Same for speed, I see it as a "convenience" rather than something really valuable.

CaptainVenom

Stncold wrote: »

Racial
Khajiit
Robustness: This passive now increases your Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery by 90 at their final rank, rather than your Health Recovery by up to 100 and your Magicka and Stamina Recovery by up to 85.

I really hope this isn't it. Why do khajiit, who already have arguably the best passives, get a small buff while redguards and bosmer are in the dumpster and argonians aren't much better off?

Yes, because +5 magicka and stamina would make them unkillable and overpowered gods.

How could you, ZOS????

WrathOfInnos

Is this from a PvP perspective? In organized group PvE I believe the current lineup for damage dealers is:

Altmer/Dunmer > Orc > Imperial > Bosmer > Redguard > Breton > Khajiit > Argonian

Bosmer and Khajiit do a little better in random groups because you cannot rely on crit damage, penetration and sustain buffs, but they still fall behind Orc.

Nord can be tricky to place, in some scenarios it can outperform Khajiit, but I think it typically falls just above Argonian.

Beast races have it tough. The crit damage hard cap crippled Khajiit, which was once top 3 (sometimes #1).

Leogon

You guys wanna talk about neglected races? Let's talk about the Nords. And don't tell me "they're good tanks" 'cuz every race can be a good tank(I know 'cuz I've tanked hard content with different races). Damage dealing is where racial passives truly matter. As a damage dealer, you wanna do as much damage as possible because the faster mobs/bosses die the better your leaderboard scores will be. As a Nord, you'll never be able to get the same scores as an equally good player who plays a Dunmer, Orc, etc.

Ratzkifal

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Is this from a PvP perspective? In organized group PvE I believe the current lineup for damage dealers is:

Altmer/Dunmer > Orc > Imperial > Bosmer > Redguard > Breton > Khajiit > Argonian

Bosmer and Khajiit do a little better in random groups because you cannot rely on crit damage, penetration and sustain buffs, but they still fall behind Orc.

Nord can be tricky to place, in some scenarios it can outperform Khajiit, but I think it typically falls just above Argonian.

Beast races have it tough. The crit damage hard cap crippled Khajiit, which was once top 3 (sometimes #1).

Nope, that is out of date. It's more like this now.

Dunmer/Khajiit > Orc/Altmer > Breton (magicka only) > Bosmer (stamina only) > Redguard > Imperial > Argonian > Nord

Dunmer has the highest base stats, higher than Altmer and Orcs, so that puts them first. But Khajiit can pull even due to their slight sustain buff + crit damage. Where exactly Khajiit land kind of depends on the available buffs but you can forego certain crit damage buffs and take other damage boosts instead because your racials can push you to the crit damage cap.

In PvP all the races are much closer together in terms of power because sustain is actually an issue, so sustain passives are not as useless as they are in PvE. But even in PvP Khajiit are a great pick thanks to their crit damage bonus.

Take all of this info with a grain of salt.

Edit: I got something mixed up there and Altmer still have the 2k max magicka and only Orcs got their stamina lowered to 1k, so it's
Dunmer/Khajiit > Altmer (magicka) > Orc (stamina) > [...]
My opinion on Khajiit boni stays the same because you don't always have a perfect group setup where the crit damage is over the cap (solo arenas, 4man dungeons, etc).

LordRukia

Redguards have it the absolute worst (WEAPON MASTERS LOLOLOL) and bosmer lacking stealth speciality is uhh less than intelligent design I'd say. I mained redguard for years and was tired of having crap racials. It just makes no sense, ZoS ignores the lore of these races. Seems like everyone these days has weapon damage except the sword masters.. go figure huh. Hell, even magic races got weap damage now.

WrathOfInnos

Ratzkifal wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Is this from a PvP perspective? In organized group PvE I believe the current lineup for damage dealers is:

Altmer/Dunmer > Orc > Imperial > Bosmer > Redguard > Breton > Khajiit > Argonian

Bosmer and Khajiit do a little better in random groups because you cannot rely on crit damage, penetration and sustain buffs, but they still fall behind Orc.

Nord can be tricky to place, in some scenarios it can outperform Khajiit, but I think it typically falls just above Argonian.

Beast races have it tough. The crit damage hard cap crippled Khajiit, which was once top 3 (sometimes #1).

Nope, that is out of date. It's more like this now.

Dunmer/Khajiit > Orc/Altmer > Breton (magicka only) > Bosmer (stamina only) > Redguard > Imperial > Argonian > Nord

Dunmer has the highest base stats, higher than Altmer and Orcs, so that puts them first. But Khajiit can pull even due to their slight sustain buff + crit damage. Where exactly Khajiit land kind of depends on the available buffs but you can forego certain crit damage buffs and take other damage boosts instead because your racials can push you to the crit damage cap.

In PvP all the races are much closer together in terms of power because sustain is actually an issue, so sustain passives are not as useless as they are in PvE. But even in PvP Khajiit are a great pick thanks to their crit damage bonus.

Take all of this info with a grain of salt.

I do take that with a grain of salt. Altmer is the peak for mag builds in the hybrid meta, while Dunmer remains top DPS for stamina.

The problem with Khajiit is that there simply aren't any good ways to remove crit damage from your build and benefit. Unless the group is all cats, they'll still need EC, Brittle and Major Force. Most classes don't even bother with Finesse/Backstabber CP in this medium armor meta, and even if Khajiit allowed you to drop those for something like Biting Aura it ends up being only ~2% damage (6% additive on <50% of damage sources). You can remove Minor Force, but Barbed Trap has good enough damage and passives for slotting that it ends up more of a loss than a benefit. In the end you are so far over the crit damage cap that the 12% racial passive is effectively 0. The race just has 900 max resource and 90 recovery, and falls behind even some of the sustain races that get 1.5k or 2k max resource.

Agreed that hybrid resources, sustain and stealth all matter more in PvP, and you likely won't be near the crit damage cap vs other players.

Ratzkifal

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Is this from a PvP perspective? In organized group PvE I believe the current lineup for damage dealers is:

Altmer/Dunmer > Orc > Imperial > Bosmer > Redguard > Breton > Khajiit > Argonian

Bosmer and Khajiit do a little better in random groups because you cannot rely on crit damage, penetration and sustain buffs, but they still fall behind Orc.

Nord can be tricky to place, in some scenarios it can outperform Khajiit, but I think it typically falls just above Argonian.

Beast races have it tough. The crit damage hard cap crippled Khajiit, which was once top 3 (sometimes #1).

Nope, that is out of date. It's more like this now.

Dunmer/Khajiit > Orc/Altmer > Breton (magicka only) > Bosmer (stamina only) > Redguard > Imperial > Argonian > Nord

Dunmer has the highest base stats, higher than Altmer and Orcs, so that puts them first. But Khajiit can pull even due to their slight sustain buff + crit damage. Where exactly Khajiit land kind of depends on the available buffs but you can forego certain crit damage buffs and take other damage boosts instead because your racials can push you to the crit damage cap.

In PvP all the races are much closer together in terms of power because sustain is actually an issue, so sustain passives are not as useless as they are in PvE. But even in PvP Khajiit are a great pick thanks to their crit damage bonus.

Take all of this info with a grain of salt.

I do take that with a grain of salt. Altmer is the peak for mag builds in the hybrid meta, while Dunmer remains top DPS for stamina.

The problem with Khajiit is that there simply aren't any good ways to remove crit damage from your build and benefit. Unless the group is all cats, they'll still need EC, Brittle and Major Force. Most classes don't even bother with Finesse/Backstabber CP in this medium armor meta, and even if Khajiit allowed you to drop those for something like Biting Aura it ends up being only ~2% damage (6% additive on <50% of damage sources). You can remove Minor Force, but Barbed Trap has good enough damage and passives for slotting that it ends up more of a loss than a benefit. In the end you are so far over the crit damage cap that the 12% racial passive is effectively 0. The race just has 900 max resource and 90 recovery, and falls behind even some of the sustain races that get 1.5k or 2k max resource.

Agreed that hybrid resources, sustain and stealth all matter more in PvP, and you likely won't be near the crit damage cap vs other players.

You are right, I got that mixed up. Altmer still got that 2k max magicka, unlike Orc. So they are a tier above Orc for magicka dps and the same tier for stamina dps as Orc are for magicka dps. But Dunmer are pretty much just as good as magicka dps as Altmer but noticeably stronger than Orcs for stamina, which in my opinion still puts Dunmer and Khajiit above Altmer for flexibility alone.
So it's Dunmer/Khajiit > Altmer > Orc and the rest should stay the same.
Not sure I agree on the point you made about Khajiit, but then again it is highly dependent on the group setup (if there even is a group). In solo arenas their crit damage is certainly very valuable.

KingExecration

Redguard could be cool af, let the percent they get apply to weapon ults and mag weapon skills if they gotta keep it. Even then I wouldn’t play one tho.

Imperial gang

Ratzkifal

KingExecration wrote: »

Redguard could be cool af, let the percent they get apply to weapon ults and mag weapon skills if they gotta keep it. Even then I wouldn’t play one tho.

Imperial gang

Oh that is already the case. They already reduce weapon ult costs but the ult uptime isn't as relevant as the extra damage on their ultimates that other races get. Not to mention that weapon ultimates aren't all that relevant in PvE anyway.
Redguards need something else, possibly even a complete overhaul.

DrSlaughtr

My guess is this was done to simplify the passive.

KingExecration

Ratzkifal wrote: »

KingExecration wrote: »

Redguard could be cool af, let the percent they get apply to weapon ults and mag weapon skills if they gotta keep it. Even then I wouldn’t play one tho.

Imperial gang

Oh that is already the case. They already reduce weapon ult costs but the ult uptime isn't as relevant as the extra damage on their ultimates that other races get. Not to mention that weapon ultimates aren't all that relevant in PvE anyway.
Redguards need something else, possibly even a complete overhaul.

Oh I was meaning mag too so resto and destro get their niche thing at least. Unless my knowledge is super dated and it isn’t just enetirely stam cost anymore

An overhaul would be fantastic but I’m keeping my expectations Zos level. If they rework it then it’ll be overpowered for 3 months then reverted

Ratzkifal

KingExecration wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

KingExecration wrote: »

Redguard could be cool af, let the percent they get apply to weapon ults and mag weapon skills if they gotta keep it. Even then I wouldn’t play one tho.

Imperial gang

Oh that is already the case. They already reduce weapon ult costs but the ult uptime isn't as relevant as the extra damage on their ultimates that other races get. Not to mention that weapon ultimates aren't all that relevant in PvE anyway.
Redguards need something else, possibly even a complete overhaul.

Oh I was meaning mag too so resto and destro get their niche thing at least. Unless my knowledge is super dated and it isn’t just enetirely stam cost anymore

An overhaul would be fantastic but I’m keeping my expectations Zos level. If they rework it then it’ll be overpowered for 3 months then reverted

It also already reduces the mag costs as well. It reduces the cost of all abilities from any of the weapon skill lines. But unlike Bretons, Redguards have no max magicka and magicka recovery and it only applies to weapon abilities still when most magicka abilities are class abilities or other skill lines. Redguards are just in a tough spot no matter how you turn it.

The only thing I can see working for them would be if they cut weapon skill costs by 20% or something similarly large that it actually makes such a big impact you'd want to be using more weapon abilities (and ultimates) on them. Maybe that would make them broken and I can certainly already hear people complaining that this would go against "play the way you want" by forcing you to use weapon abilities to be viable, but that's the only way I can see this cost reduction ever work out so long as it only affects the weapon skill lines.

BattleAxe

Leogon wrote: »

You guys wanna talk about neglected races? Let's talk about the Nords. And don't tell me "they're good tanks" 'cuz every race can be a good tank(I know 'cuz I've tanked hard content with different races). Damage dealing is where racial passives truly matter. As a damage dealer, you wanna do as much damage as possible because the faster mobs/bosses die the better your leaderboard scores will be. As a Nord, you'll never be able to get the same scores as an equally good player who plays a Dunmer, Orc, etc.

Nords make good tanks and well that ties into being a good dps. To explain I’ll simply say a dead dps is 0 dps. Nords are in a decent spot as far as passives go reworking a passive to give them more damage will likely hurt the nord more than help it. I’ll give ground on the fact yes faster mobs/bosses die effect score however group deaths effect score as well. I main a nord dk tank and I wouldn’t trade a single racial passive to deal more damage. I’ll agree any race can be a good tank but like you said nords won’t perform as damage dealers as well as say Dunmer’s orcs and such the reverse can be said of Dunmer’s orcs and such not performing as well as a nords as tanks. Sure they can still be good tanks but they don’t have the racial passives to min max as tanks.

Jarl_Ironheart

redlink1979 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

(...) Redguard is a complete joke.(...)

5 years ago this was a race with strong passives. To balance the game, they completely nerfed the race to the ground.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/345258/pc-mac-patch-notes-v3-0-5-morrowind-amp-update-14#latest

I remember when redguard was KING of stamina. So weird seeing in like it is now

jirusan

I wish they would remove the racial passives altogether, and transfer them into the CP trees, for example by allowing a 5th slottable.

The armoury is already an awesome system and it would make it even better to develop multi-roles characters.