Emperor Scaling In Cyrodiil

acastanza_ESO

So you're telling me that the emperor bonus, the thing you need to defend your keeps, will now get weaker the more you actually need it to defend those last keeps?
[snip]
[edited for bashing]

xDeusEJRx

Yeah that seemed like the most unnecessary and out of place change I saw. I don't think emperor needs to be updated at all. I guess this means emperor groups who just emp for title are gonna be considerably weaker than they once were.

Fodder emperors will be more commonplace

MajorSnakeFox

A very good change. We hardly have balanced campaigns and it will now be easier to influence the map as an underdog.

xDeusEJRx

MajorSnakeFox wrote: »

A very good change. We hardly have balanced campaigns and it will now be easier to influence the map as an underdog.

I highly doubt that has anything to do with emperor though. There's more fodder emperors than ones who dominate the map 24/7. Tons of people who just get it for title then pass it around to guild mates for example.

I think the main reason being an underdog is super oppressive is things like faction imbalance and not being able to kill larger groups due to cross healing being grossly overpowered. None of which is effected by the emperor themselves

MajorSnakeFox

But it makes the factions that always have emperors a little weaker in life. Or do you think ZOS will eventually get Crossheal and the rest under control? I don't.

React

The health scaling portion is fine, but the emperor passives should work the other way around. Emperor should be the weakest with all 6 keeps, and once they're down to 1-2 keeps the passives should be 15/30% stronger. You shouldn't make them the weakest at the time where they need to be the most impactful.

NordSwordnBoard

React wrote: »

The health scaling portion is fine, but the emperor passives should work the other way around. Emperor should be the weakest with all 6 keeps, and once they're down to 1-2 keeps the passives should be 15/30% stronger. You shouldn't make them the weakest at the time where they need to be the most impactful.

Attacking the final Emp keep and threatening scrolls at the same time works just fine. You want the Emps to log off early? For months they had to deal with no bonus at all because the game kicked them or they logged out to sleep. Why make them weaker and attach a bunch of server calculations to their stats?

React

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

React wrote: »

The health scaling portion is fine, but the emperor passives should work the other way around. Emperor should be the weakest with all 6 keeps, and once they're down to 1-2 keeps the passives should be 15/30% stronger. You shouldn't make them the weakest at the time where they need to be the most impactful.

Attacking the final Emp keep and threatening scrolls at the same time works just fine. You want the Emps to log off early? For months they had to deal with no bonus at all because the game kicked them or they logged out to sleep. Why make them weaker and attach a bunch of server calculations to their stats?

I don't personally think they should nerf emperor at all. As it stands these days, regardless of how good they are, an emperor simply cannot defend against a ball group anymore. I am merely suggesting that if zenimax is choosing to do this, they should do it the other way around.

YandereGirlfriend

This change is completely inverted to what is actually needed in Cyrodiil.

Scroll and Emperor buffs should get STRONGER the fewer map assets and overall population that you have, not weaker.

acastanza_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This change is completely inverted to what is actually needed in Cyrodiil.

Scroll and Emperor buffs should get STRONGER the fewer map assets and overall population that you have, not weaker.

1000% Agree. It's clear that whoever thought up this change has never been in Cyrodiil.

KingExecration

This is such a bad change since it only reinforces zerging or trying to gate when you emp. Everytime I’ve emped I just wanna sit on 3 maybe 4 emp keeps to be super comfy. Now 6 to get full benefit of that? Absurd. Double edged change since less incentive for emp and makes when people do push it makes them wanna just steam roll everything.

Wish the devs actually pvped in their own game

NordSwordnBoard

React wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

React wrote: »

The health scaling portion is fine, but the emperor passives should work the other way around. Emperor should be the weakest with all 6 keeps, and once they're down to 1-2 keeps the passives should be 15/30% stronger. You shouldn't make them the weakest at the time where they need to be the most impactful.

Attacking the final Emp keep and threatening scrolls at the same time works just fine. You want the Emps to log off early? For months they had to deal with no bonus at all because the game kicked them or they logged out to sleep. Why make them weaker and attach a bunch of server calculations to their stats?

I don't personally think they should nerf emperor at all. As it stands these days, regardless of how good they are, an emperor simply cannot defend against a ball group anymore. I am merely suggesting that if zenimax is choosing to do this, they should do it the other way around.

Sorry, after re-reading that I should've used ZOS not "you" wanting Emp to log off etc.

acastanza_ESO

Right? Like this only inentivizes putting down any hint of enemy action when typically the Emp faction might be willing to give up some keeps up to get DC/EP out into the ring so we can get good fights. With this change you'd never want to do that.

Tommy_The_Gun

Overall I think it is a good change as it kinda forces EMP faction to spread and defend at least 2 or 3 keeps, instead of one.

Maybe finally people won't camp last EMP keep 24/7 and lose every other keep/scroll/resource they have in the process....

Instead of defending one keep for eternity it will motivate players to counter-attack and re-take other keeps.

acastanza_ESO

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Overall I think it is a good change as it kinda forces EMP faction to spread and defend at least 2 or 3 keeps, instead of one.

Maybe finally people won't camp last EMP keep 24/7 and lose every other keep/scroll/resource the have in the process....

Instead of defending one keep for eternity it will motivate players to counter-attack and re-take other keeps.

Except that's not what'll happen. The defending faction will have maximum power when they're (now incentivized to) hard camping the keeps closest to the enemies gates and try-hard defending every single emp keep to prevent loosing even one. Whereas now, if you loose the emp keeps in an enemies home region it doesn't matter so you're less likely to have the emp there defending every time.
Then also when you're being steamrolled by a team purple/green/orange situation and being forced back to your last emp keep (which happens frequently) you won't have the buffs necessary to even bother putting up a defense (which, those defenses are some of the most fun in all of cyrodiil). This change is extremely ill-conceived by a team that clearly.... doesn't fully appreciate the dynamics of Cyrodiil.

Sqc

Nobody asked for this.

YandereGirlfriend

Indeed, these changes are so backwards.

Scroll and Emperor ought to scale UP as your server population and controlled map assets decline as a hedge against getting zerged-down by more populous enemy factions.

The way that this works rewards faction-stacking and switching to the currently winning side.

maxjapank

I’ll wait to make a judgement on this till I see it played out. But it does encourage the Emp to be more proactive in protecting multiple keeps over just turtleing in the last remaining keep. It used to be that the other factions could take the inner tri-keeps and scrolls, thus forcing the Emp faction to make a choice between losing everything or keeping Emp. Sadly, population caps and imbalances make this more meaningless.

Jamie_Aubrey

They don't care about PVP and this shows it even more

Jamie_Aubrey

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This change is completely inverted to what is actually needed in Cyrodiil.

Scroll and Emperor buffs should get STRONGER the fewer map assets and overall population that you have, not weaker.

This, this would stop nightcapping, as the 2 factions with 0 keeps will be stronger

DrSlaughtr

This is a good step in the right direction but not enough. Campaigns get absolutely OWNED by faction stacking except for very few times of the day where there is actual numbers on all sides. BUT it's not enough. There needs to be more done to promote parity in Cyrodiil, especially in BR and RW, but also in GH during non-peak hours. Some people just can't play in GH due to the lag, so either you deal with getting run over by griefers or you join their team and twiddle your thumbs waiting for OH LOOK THAT FARM IS ON FIRE! LEGGGOOOOOOOO!

DrSlaughtr

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Indeed, these changes are so backwards.

Scroll and Emperor ought to scale UP as your server population and controlled map assets decline as a hedge against getting zerged-down by more populous enemy factions.

The way that this works rewards faction-stacking and switching to the currently winning side.

I'm sorry but maybe I play in bizarro would. I've seen so many times where the emp faction stacks in the final emp keep for hours, just waiting out the other forces, then take everything back.

If you have emp, the onus is on you to keep it, not get help from the game to face tank the opposition until everyone gets bored.

Ishtharo

Will concur with React here, these bonuses should be working in reverse. While we are at it, Scroll buffs should also work that way.

But here we are, playing a game for a company who refuses to listen to its customer base, opting instead to make furnishings to line their pockets more.

DrSlaughtr

It already takes an overwhelming force to dethrone let alone emp. I find it rather funny that people would make it even easier for the side with every advantage should get more by increasing the emp of buff.

It is DRASTICALLY easier to defend keeps than take them.

xDeusEJRx

ninjagank wrote: »

This is a good step in the right direction but not enough. Campaigns get absolutely OWNED by faction stacking except for very few times of the day where there is actual numbers on all sides. BUT it's not enough. There needs to be more done to promote parity in Cyrodiil, especially in BR and RW, but also in GH during non-peak hours. Some people just can't play in GH due to the lag, so either you deal with getting run over by griefers or you join their team and twiddle your thumbs waiting for OH LOOK THAT FARM IS ON FIRE! LEGGGOOOOOOOO!

This change would encourage more faction stack zerging though, if you think about it.
Why would your average zergling stop pushing after getting emperor and potentially lose out on their power they get from emp?
It encourages them to be offensive 24/7 in order to stay as powerful as possible, and to that end the logical conclusion is to then server zerg the enemy factions to the point where they can't challenge your emperor stance(by forcing them out of the campaign). I can't see how this isn't going to be the case.
At least right now, people have no real reason to server zerg every keep(other than to get points), but this just encourages people to want to do this MORE in order to keep their faction on top.

The correct decision, was to not change this system at all.

DrSlaughtr

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

This is a good step in the right direction but not enough. Campaigns get absolutely OWNED by faction stacking except for very few times of the day where there is actual numbers on all sides. BUT it's not enough. There needs to be more done to promote parity in Cyrodiil, especially in BR and RW, but also in GH during non-peak hours. Some people just can't play in GH due to the lag, so either you deal with getting run over by griefers or you join their team and twiddle your thumbs waiting for OH LOOK THAT FARM IS ON FIRE! LEGGGOOOOOOOO!

This change would encourage more faction stack zerging though, if you think about it.
Why would your average zergling stop pushing after getting emperor and potentially lose out on their power they get from emp?
It encourages them to be offensive 24/7 in order to stay as powerful as possible, and to that end the logical conclusion is to then server zerg the enemy factions to the point where they can't challenge your emperor stance(by forcing them out of the campaign). I can't see how this isn't going to be the case.
At least right now, people have no real reason to server zerg every keep(other than to get points), but this just encourages people to want to do this MORE in order to keep their faction on top.

The correct decision, was to not change this system at all.

You say this like that's not what happens anyway.

Take emp. Gate the faction you have a dumb little hatred for. Maybe you gate the other faction or you just say where you were to grief. This is the goto for ANY faction that totally controls the map.

What you have now is there is no incentive to leave home keeps. If you are EP and you've decided DC just shouldn't be allowed to play today, you squat their home keeps while AD does whatever down south. Who cares if they flag Alessia, right? You have no reason to care because you can still travel all around the map, and you get to keep killing blues as they bounce out to try and flag a resource. HOW DARE THEY?!

What this will do is force EMP faction to stay on the circle. This could mean more counterplay on the outer rim of the map. And if they decide to just sit at Glades all day? Go behind them and start flagging stuff around the circle. They will be forced to pull back and commit to defense, allowing others on your faction to take your home keeps.

This game has made the map pointless. Whoever has the advantage takes emp and squats for not just a few hours, but days. Faction loyalty has done nothing but promote a level of weird nationalism that I find particularly disgusting, but alas, you have to pick a side and you get xenophobic about everyone else. Then the next step is you decide that every play session must be committed to ruining the game for everyone else to the point you don't even care anymore that you have people to fight. The thrill of seeing a resource flag at BB or Glades is what you live for.

No, it's time they take a step toward ending this madness. If you take emp, you should be forced to defend it. You have every advantage, even down to the last keep, because it's significantly easier to defend Chalamo than take it. The amount of numbers and communication it takes to dethrone even an average emp group is absurd.

Xanttious

IMO zos is never going to be able to balance the servers. In any tri-faction game this is never possible, there will always be one faction that is weaker then the other two. This goes back as far as DaoC where on my server it was Midgard that was the weakest.

As far as the nerfing emp, that is the wrong move and won't help balance anything (At least on gray host, the only place where getting emp means something imo) People put their lives into it to get it. Trust me i know. It isn't handed to you, It is earned. When you finally get it the best feeling in the world. Now your taking that away from it. Now all emp will be in a achievement worth 50 points.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This change is completely inverted to what is actually needed in Cyrodiil.

Scroll and Emperor buffs should get STRONGER the fewer map assets and overall population that you have, not weaker.

I too would have to agree with this. There is a reason a lot of times at least on DC in Grayhost. We don't emp people because if you are playing the map "correctly" emp is a horrible move. It makes both factions focus you and you risk the chance of losing your scrolls because half the server wants to hold emp and half the server wants to protect scrolls. Dethroning a emp isn't that hard if you have good leaders in zone that know what they are doing.

DrSlaughtr

Xanttious wrote: »

IMO zos is never going to be able to balance the servers. In any tri-faction game this is never possible, there will always be one faction that is weaker then the other two. This goes back as far as DaoC where on my server it was Midgard that was the weakest.

As far as the nerfing emp, that is the wrong move and won't help balance anything (At least on gray host, the only place where getting emp means something imo) People put their lives into it to get it. Trust me i know. It isn't handed to you, It is earned. When you finally get it the best feeling in the world. Now your taking that away from it. Now all emp will be in a achievement worth 50 points.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This change is completely inverted to what is actually needed in Cyrodiil.

Scroll and Emperor buffs should get STRONGER the fewer map assets and overall population that you have, not weaker.

I too would have to agree with this. There is a reason a lot of times at least on DC in Grayhost. We don't emp people because if you are playing the map "correctly" emp is a horrible move. It makes both factions focus you and you risk the chance of losing your scrolls because half the server wants to hold emp and half the server wants to protect scrolls. Dethroning a emp isn't that hard if you have good leaders in zone that know what they are doing.

First off, I think you read the patch note wrong.

The Health bonus for having an Emperor crowned for your Alliance will now scale depending on how many “home” or “natively owned” Keeps you have controlled by your alliance. For example, if you own all 6 of your home Keeps you’ll get the full bonus as Emperor, but for each of those you don’t own, the health bonus is reduced.

The Emperor Passives also now scale in a similar way to the Alliance wide health bonus. For each of the 6 home Keeps your Alliance owns, the bonus will be up to its full value. For each one that is not owned by your Alliance, the passive benefits are reduced.

It says nothing about the Emperor's personal buff. This is specifically about the free health bonus everyone else on the alliance gets for having emperor. This is the bonus that allows the controlling faction to mostly ignore the inner circle until they're down to one or two keeps, then faction stack inside and wait out the opposition. AKA, what happens most of the time when the other factions don't have overwhelming numbers to force the dethrone.

The Emperor themself will have the normal Emp buffs to the end, unless someone can confirm otherwise.

If you want to argue to keep business as usual, that's a fair criticism of this change, but the idea that Emp faction that already has every advantage as is needs to be coddled more is a very narrow view, I believe. Certainly if you're the emp faction, you want that health buff till the bitter end, but we have ALL been on the other side, where we spend hours beating down every emp keep, only to never finish because when the enemy has only one keep left, every player on that faction stacks inside. They line the walls with cold fire and send waves of DDs and tanks out to kill and burn siege, having unlimited lives so long as its not flagged, and even then they can put camps up. The goal isn't even to win the conflict. It's simply to frustrate the other side into giving up, and losing most of the faction-wide health buff will make it just a little harder for them to do that.

I support this message.

OBJnoob

ninjagank wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

This is a good step in the right direction but not enough. Campaigns get absolutely OWNED by faction stacking except for very few times of the day where there is actual numbers on all sides. BUT it's not enough. There needs to be more done to promote parity in Cyrodiil, especially in BR and RW, but also in GH during non-peak hours. Some people just can't play in GH due to the lag, so either you deal with getting run over by griefers or you join their team and twiddle your thumbs waiting for OH LOOK THAT FARM IS ON FIRE! LEGGGOOOOOOOO!

This change would encourage more faction stack zerging though, if you think about it.
Why would your average zergling stop pushing after getting emperor and potentially lose out on their power they get from emp?
It encourages them to be offensive 24/7 in order to stay as powerful as possible, and to that end the logical conclusion is to then server zerg the enemy factions to the point where they can't challenge your emperor stance(by forcing them out of the campaign). I can't see how this isn't going to be the case.
At least right now, people have no real reason to server zerg every keep(other than to get points), but this just encourages people to want to do this MORE in order to keep their faction on top.

The correct decision, was to not change this system at all.

You say this like that's not what happens anyway.

Take emp. Gate the faction you have a dumb little hatred for. Maybe you gate the other faction or you just say where you were to grief. This is the goto for ANY faction that totally controls the map.

What you have now is there is no incentive to leave home keeps. If you are EP and you've decided DC just shouldn't be allowed to play today, you squat their home keeps while AD does whatever down south. Who cares if they flag Alessia, right? You have no reason to care because you can still travel all around the map, and you get to keep killing blues as they bounce out to try and flag a resource. HOW DARE THEY?!

What this will do is force EMP faction to stay on the circle. This could mean more counterplay on the outer rim of the map. And if they decide to just sit at Glades all day? Go behind them and start flagging stuff around the circle. They will be forced to pull back and commit to defense, allowing others on your faction to take your home keeps.

This game has made the map pointless. Whoever has the advantage takes emp and squats for not just a few hours, but days. Faction loyalty has done nothing but promote a level of weird nationalism that I find particularly disgusting, but alas, you have to pick a side and you get xenophobic about everyone else. Then the next step is you decide that every play session must be committed to ruining the game for everyone else to the point you don't even care anymore that you have people to fight. The thrill of seeing a resource flag at BB or Glades is what you live for.

No, it's time they take a step toward ending this madness. If you take emp, you should be forced to defend it. You have every advantage, even down to the last keep, because it's significantly easier to defend Chalamo than take it. The amount of numbers and communication it takes to dethrone even an average emp group is absurd.

Quoting because the next time I visit this topic I want to read this twice. Never read anything (about ESO PvP,) more viscerally true in my life.

Necrotech_Master

ninjagank wrote: »

Xanttious wrote: »

IMO zos is never going to be able to balance the servers. In any tri-faction game this is never possible, there will always be one faction that is weaker then the other two. This goes back as far as DaoC where on my server it was Midgard that was the weakest.

As far as the nerfing emp, that is the wrong move and won't help balance anything (At least on gray host, the only place where getting emp means something imo) People put their lives into it to get it. Trust me i know. It isn't handed to you, It is earned. When you finally get it the best feeling in the world. Now your taking that away from it. Now all emp will be in a achievement worth 50 points.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This change is completely inverted to what is actually needed in Cyrodiil.

Scroll and Emperor buffs should get STRONGER the fewer map assets and overall population that you have, not weaker.

I too would have to agree with this. There is a reason a lot of times at least on DC in Grayhost. We don't emp people because if you are playing the map "correctly" emp is a horrible move. It makes both factions focus you and you risk the chance of losing your scrolls because half the server wants to hold emp and half the server wants to protect scrolls. Dethroning a emp isn't that hard if you have good leaders in zone that know what they are doing.

First off, I think you read the patch note wrong.

The Health bonus for having an Emperor crowned for your Alliance will now scale depending on how many “home” or “natively owned” Keeps you have controlled by your alliance. For example, if you own all 6 of your home Keeps you’ll get the full bonus as Emperor, but for each of those you don’t own, the health bonus is reduced.

The Emperor Passives also now scale in a similar way to the Alliance wide health bonus. For each of the 6 home Keeps your Alliance owns, the bonus will be up to its full value. For each one that is not owned by your Alliance, the passive benefits are reduced.

It says nothing about the Emperor's personal buff. This is specifically about the free health bonus everyone else on the alliance gets for having emperor. This is the bonus that allows the controlling faction to mostly ignore the inner circle until they're down to one or two keeps, then faction stack inside and wait out the opposition. AKA, what happens most of the time when the other factions don't have overwhelming numbers to force the dethrone.

The Emperor themself will have the normal Emp buffs to the end, unless someone can confirm otherwise.

If you want to argue to keep business as usual, that's a fair criticism of this change, but the idea that Emp faction that already has every advantage as is needs to be coddled more is a very narrow view, I believe. Certainly if you're the emp faction, you want that health buff till the bitter end, but we have ALL been on the other side, where we spend hours beating down every emp keep, only to never finish because when the enemy has only one keep left, every player on that faction stacks inside. They line the walls with cold fire and send waves of DDs and tanks out to kill and burn siege, having unlimited lives so long as its not flagged, and even then they can put camps up. The goal isn't even to win the conflict. It's simply to frustrate the other side into giving up, and losing most of the faction-wide health buff will make it just a little harder for them to do that.

I support this message.

in your quote of the patch notes, the scaling affects BOTH the emps personal bonus and the alliance wide health scaling (bolded the line in your quote that notes this)

The Health bonus for having an Emperor crowned for your Alliance will now scale depending on how many “home” or “natively owned” Keeps you have controlled by your alliance. For example, if you own all 6 of your home Keeps you’ll get the full bonus as Emperor, but for each of those you don’t own, the health bonus is reduced.

The Emperor Passives also now scale in a similar way to the Alliance wide health bonus. For each of the 6 home Keeps your Alliance owns, the bonus will be up to its full value. For each one that is not owned by your Alliance, the passive benefits are reduced.

xDeusEJRx

ninjagank wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

This is a good step in the right direction but not enough. Campaigns get absolutely OWNED by faction stacking except for very few times of the day where there is actual numbers on all sides. BUT it's not enough. There needs to be more done to promote parity in Cyrodiil, especially in BR and RW, but also in GH during non-peak hours. Some people just can't play in GH due to the lag, so either you deal with getting run over by griefers or you join their team and twiddle your thumbs waiting for OH LOOK THAT FARM IS ON FIRE! LEGGGOOOOOOOO!

This change would encourage more faction stack zerging though, if you think about it.
Why would your average zergling stop pushing after getting emperor and potentially lose out on their power they get from emp?
It encourages them to be offensive 24/7 in order to stay as powerful as possible, and to that end the logical conclusion is to then server zerg the enemy factions to the point where they can't challenge your emperor stance(by forcing them out of the campaign). I can't see how this isn't going to be the case.
At least right now, people have no real reason to server zerg every keep(other than to get points), but this just encourages people to want to do this MORE in order to keep their faction on top.

The correct decision, was to not change this system at all.

You say this like that's not what happens anyway.

Take emp. Gate the faction you have a dumb little hatred for. Maybe you gate the other faction or you just say where you were to grief. This is the goto for ANY faction that totally controls the map.

What you have now is there is no incentive to leave home keeps. If you are EP and you've decided DC just shouldn't be allowed to play today, you squat their home keeps while AD does whatever down south. Who cares if they flag Alessia, right? You have no reason to care because you can still travel all around the map, and you get to keep killing blues as they bounce out to try and flag a resource. HOW DARE THEY?!

What this will do is force EMP faction to stay on the circle. This could mean more counterplay on the outer rim of the map. And if they decide to just sit at Glades all day? Go behind them and start flagging stuff around the circle. They will be forced to pull back and commit to defense, allowing others on your faction to take your home keeps.

This game has made the map pointless. Whoever has the advantage takes emp and squats for not just a few hours, but days. Faction loyalty has done nothing but promote a level of weird nationalism that I find particularly disgusting, but alas, you have to pick a side and you get xenophobic about everyone else. Then the next step is you decide that every play session must be committed to ruining the game for everyone else to the point you don't even care anymore that you have people to fight. The thrill of seeing a resource flag at BB or Glades is what you live for.

No, it's time they take a step toward ending this madness. If you take emp, you should be forced to defend it. You have every advantage, even down to the last keep, because it's significantly easier to defend Chalamo than take it. The amount of numbers and communication it takes to dethrone even an average emp group is absurd.

It happens anyways, but what this means is every zergling is going to want to stop any sort of resistance on the map. If you care about campaign score at all the smart thing to do is not allow them to push at all because once you start losing then you will start to lose power and those who care about campaign aren't going to give any ground whatsoever. Which means every zergling's game plan is going to be faction stack everything and then map paint everything 24/7 and not let the other factions push.

It does nothing good for the game, if the underdog factions are already struggling to compete with the top one, this is just going to encourage them to be more oppressive in order to be the most successful. Because like I said before, zerglings don't want to give ground and this just means that they'll want to prevent any sort of resistance in order to not lose power