The combat team should read the Warden description (another bad move in U36)

ToRelax

dmnqwk wrote: »

As long as my stamden doesn't lose damage I don't see an issue here.

Tying skills to frost staff is simply an attempt to get Magdens on an even keel with stamdens, but the fact that there is no execute ability for some magicka classes is why it never works out.

This is simply the latest attempt to Make a Magden Great Again (MAGMA) and it's not terrible, but obviously the crit damage alteration might make people unable to play a stamden because of crit damage cap.

As for the specifics - I think it would need to be something like:
Class abilities deal up to 30% more based on your maximum magicka (1% per 1000 magicka).
This would give about what is necessary for stamdens with 12k, but allow magicka users to get the buff necessary to compete?

That would just make it so Wardens end up being forced to build magicka regardless of which abilities they use.

There is no such thing as a magicka or stamina build now, as the ability to balance them seperately has been lost. Attempting to tie classes to specific weapons after just getting rid of such restrictions for magicka and stamina builds is taking one step forward and two steps back.

BloodyStigmata

Unless you've tested how far using an ice staff puts you ahead of every other weapon type on the PTS (which you haven't, because at the time of your post, not even the PTS patch notes have gone live) then I don't want to hear squat about being "forced to use an ice staff," which by the way, unless they're holding a gun to your head, you're not. Frost DPS has always trailed behind, at that's likely STILL not going to change.

Secondly, this objectively wrong comment about "wardens not being ice mages" completely ignores the the fact that;

A) We've had a whole "winter's embrace" skill dedicated to frost and frost magic since Morrowind.
B ) It has always had a bonus to frost damage dealt, which if the skill really had been entirely dedicated to tanking would have been completely pointless.
C) It has always had at least 1 morph changing the function of the skill to be more damage oriented.

Warden's can be ice mages. They don't have to be. It's a playstyle that's never been meta, but a play style that's always been facilitated (and not very well for the most part.) We're getting an additional bonus now and that's fine.

Now a valid argument would be that maybe the animal companion skill line isn't the place for that specific bonus--they could just add it to piecing cold where it belongs and leave the penetration on advanced species where it is, but I digress.

DigiAngel

Haven't bought this class...probably won't now.

Androrix

BloodyStigmata wrote: »

Warden's can be ice mages. They don't have to be. It's a playstyle that's never been meta, but a play style that's always been facilitated (and not very well for the most part.) We're getting an additional bonus now and that's fine.

Now a valid argument would be that maybe the animal companion skill line isn't the place for that specific bonus--they could just add it to piecing cold where it belongs and leave the penetration on advanced species where it is, but I digress.

Super confused at this point.

As I read the patch notes kindly posted above I saw 2 major changes:

1. Advanced species passive bonus used to be damage, was changed by U35 to penetration, and now will be changed again to increased critical damage.
2. Piercing cold passive bonus will now enhance "overall damage" not just "magic and frost damage". That overall damage bonus will increase, however, if you use an ice staff.

Advanced species is an animal companion passive; Piercing cold is a winters embrace passive. I don't quite understand, or misundestand the point you were making here. Apologies if I am being obtuse.

I am really not clear in what way the new piercing cold passive enhances "overall damage". The patch note would have been more helpful if it had stated the changed effect as it will appear on the passive.

LeHarrt91

BloodyStigmata wrote: »

Unless you've tested how far using an ice staff puts you ahead of every other weapon type on the PTS (which you haven't, because at the time of your post, not even the PTS patch notes have gone live) then I don't want to hear squat about being "forced to use an ice staff," which by the way, unless they're holding a gun to your head, you're not. Frost DPS has always trailed behind, at that's likely STILL not going to change.

Secondly, this objectively wrong comment about "wardens not being ice mages" completely ignores the the fact that;

A) We've had a whole "winter's embrace" skill dedicated to frost and frost magic since Morrowind.
B ) It has always had a bonus to frost damage dealt, which if the skill really had been entirely dedicated to tanking would have been completely pointless.
C) It has always had at least 1 morph changing the function of the skill to be more damage oriented.

Warden's can be ice mages. They don't have to be. It's a playstyle that's never been meta, but a play style that's always been facilitated (and not very well for the most part.) We're getting an additional bonus now and that's fine.

Now a valid argument would be that maybe the animal companion skill line isn't the place for that specific bonus--they could just add it to piecing cold where it belongs and leave the penetration on advanced species where it is, but I digress.

The Peircing Cold passive is the one getting the additional frost staff bonus (on top of the all damage done bonus). Advanced Species is being changed to Crit Damage which helps ALL dps.

Kingsindarkness

This might ramble so please forgive me...and believe it or not I'm being sincere.

Maybe this is the question you don't ask...but here goes...

I have thought a lot about this and I have to ask myself if this actually affects me and the answer is no...in fact it really dosen't affect many players at all... dose it?

I mean honestly who does this effect? I guess Vet Trial players and PVPers...and that isn't a lot of people...I just don't understand why so much effort (and it's pretty obvious the devs put a lot of effort if you listen to the patch notes and the official ESO streams)

I'm honestly not being sarcastic here correct me if I'm wrong please it's like it's the opposite of the old axiom the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I get that any company wants to please as many customers as possible, but there is this inordinate amount of attention given to the smallest player base in the game and this just dosen't make sense to me.


I'm not saying that anything should be taken away I just can't understand the logic behind it is all...

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

edward_frigidhands

Scaletho wrote: »

My friend, sorry to say that, but ZOS will push whatever they think as "improvements" no matter what the community say.

They rely on basically an old -- very old -- gaming industry culture: "push the change, take the hit, wait until the most part of the community just give up and accept".

And, or course, they count on the "it's nice" part of community. Those players who defend and/or agree with any stuff the gaming industry throw to them.

ZOS made a huge mistake by creating an Up 35 where almost all the good stuff got nerfed. And they will keep doing it again and again until ESO lost its profit value as a commercially reliable game. Then they will move on to another installment.

For us, ESO should be fun and engaging. To them, ESO is just a profit machine.

That's it.

Unfortunately I must agree with this being the case as well based on what I have seen over the years.

We definitely have community representatives state that we are being heard and listened to but this has rarely ever translated to action.

edward_frigidhands

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

That is exactly what we do not know yet. And in the end, I don't care if they drop some numbers in the process. I care about the full package! And the full package could be the worst in terms of dps! It's the gap that counts. If #1 is Sorc with 130k and number 6 is Warden with 126k - come on, that's fine with me! If Number #1 is sitting comfortably at 142k and number 6 ... say Dragonknight at 84k, I would be very, very sad with Warden sitting at .. say #3 with 97k, when Number #2 .. take Nightblade! - sits at 139k.

See, it is about viability. If discrepancy is too high, you will get filtered out of specific content by specific groups. There will be a bias against your class in a specific role. If all classes are close however, this just doesn't matter any longer.

On the other way: I DO understand where the frustration comes from, U35 was a pain. Still, on a personal level I prefer being hopeful than pessimistic. Simple as that.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

I want to disagree here. Wardens are more then just frost mages. The frost mage fantasy is awesome, I give you that. But as good as the creation of the POSSIBILITY to play a frost mage is, as bad would it be to FORCE people into being a frost mage. I want frost to be viable. Nothing more. The time I would deem frost staff viable is the moment we get a boost of at least 5% extra damage when we use a frost staff. Not extra frost damage. 5% extra damage to everything. 6% would be awesome. Everything above - in all honesty - I deem no longer mathematically sound in regards to the massive defensive benefits frost provides in PvP. Not saying I won't take it. But I'd prefer changes that stick over changes that are going to change ^^

So yea, let's just all wait for those numbers

then you agree with what i'm saying. wardens are frost mages. yes, they also have other themes, but the OC was trying to act like frost dps wasn't a part of warden's class identity when it is. we ALL agree that how zos is going about this isn't right. tying warden's power to the frost staff is a bad idea. it was fine as it was before with increased frost damage.

Frost is their tank/defensive tree.

It is not a DPS skill line.

ESO_Nightingale

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

That is exactly what we do not know yet. And in the end, I don't care if they drop some numbers in the process. I care about the full package! And the full package could be the worst in terms of dps! It's the gap that counts. If #1 is Sorc with 130k and number 6 is Warden with 126k - come on, that's fine with me! If Number #1 is sitting comfortably at 142k and number 6 ... say Dragonknight at 84k, I would be very, very sad with Warden sitting at .. say #3 with 97k, when Number #2 .. take Nightblade! - sits at 139k.

See, it is about viability. If discrepancy is too high, you will get filtered out of specific content by specific groups. There will be a bias against your class in a specific role. If all classes are close however, this just doesn't matter any longer.

On the other way: I DO understand where the frustration comes from, U35 was a pain. Still, on a personal level I prefer being hopeful than pessimistic. Simple as that.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

I want to disagree here. Wardens are more then just frost mages. The frost mage fantasy is awesome, I give you that. But as good as the creation of the POSSIBILITY to play a frost mage is, as bad would it be to FORCE people into being a frost mage. I want frost to be viable. Nothing more. The time I would deem frost staff viable is the moment we get a boost of at least 5% extra damage when we use a frost staff. Not extra frost damage. 5% extra damage to everything. 6% would be awesome. Everything above - in all honesty - I deem no longer mathematically sound in regards to the massive defensive benefits frost provides in PvP. Not saying I won't take it. But I'd prefer changes that stick over changes that are going to change ^^

So yea, let's just all wait for those numbers

then you agree with what i'm saying. wardens are frost mages. yes, they also have other themes, but the OC was trying to act like frost dps wasn't a part of warden's class identity when it is. we ALL agree that how zos is going about this isn't right. tying warden's power to the frost staff is a bad idea. it was fine as it was before with increased frost damage.

Frost is their tank/defensive tree.

It is not a DPS skill line.

it literally is both of those things? they're not mutually exclusive.

LeHarrt91

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

That is exactly what we do not know yet. And in the end, I don't care if they drop some numbers in the process. I care about the full package! And the full package could be the worst in terms of dps! It's the gap that counts. If #1 is Sorc with 130k and number 6 is Warden with 126k - come on, that's fine with me! If Number #1 is sitting comfortably at 142k and number 6 ... say Dragonknight at 84k, I would be very, very sad with Warden sitting at .. say #3 with 97k, when Number #2 .. take Nightblade! - sits at 139k.

See, it is about viability. If discrepancy is too high, you will get filtered out of specific content by specific groups. There will be a bias against your class in a specific role. If all classes are close however, this just doesn't matter any longer.

On the other way: I DO understand where the frustration comes from, U35 was a pain. Still, on a personal level I prefer being hopeful than pessimistic. Simple as that.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

I want to disagree here. Wardens are more then just frost mages. The frost mage fantasy is awesome, I give you that. But as good as the creation of the POSSIBILITY to play a frost mage is, as bad would it be to FORCE people into being a frost mage. I want frost to be viable. Nothing more. The time I would deem frost staff viable is the moment we get a boost of at least 5% extra damage when we use a frost staff. Not extra frost damage. 5% extra damage to everything. 6% would be awesome. Everything above - in all honesty - I deem no longer mathematically sound in regards to the massive defensive benefits frost provides in PvP. Not saying I won't take it. But I'd prefer changes that stick over changes that are going to change ^^

So yea, let's just all wait for those numbers

then you agree with what i'm saying. wardens are frost mages. yes, they also have other themes, but the OC was trying to act like frost dps wasn't a part of warden's class identity when it is. we ALL agree that how zos is going about this isn't right. tying warden's power to the frost staff is a bad idea. it was fine as it was before with increased frost damage.

Frost is their tank/defensive tree.

It is not a DPS skill line.

But it does have DPS morphs and passives.

FlipFlopFrog

I really like the new update to wardens...but then I do have an ice staff frost mage.

edward_frigidhands

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

That is exactly what we do not know yet. And in the end, I don't care if they drop some numbers in the process. I care about the full package! And the full package could be the worst in terms of dps! It's the gap that counts. If #1 is Sorc with 130k and number 6 is Warden with 126k - come on, that's fine with me! If Number #1 is sitting comfortably at 142k and number 6 ... say Dragonknight at 84k, I would be very, very sad with Warden sitting at .. say #3 with 97k, when Number #2 .. take Nightblade! - sits at 139k.

See, it is about viability. If discrepancy is too high, you will get filtered out of specific content by specific groups. There will be a bias against your class in a specific role. If all classes are close however, this just doesn't matter any longer.

On the other way: I DO understand where the frustration comes from, U35 was a pain. Still, on a personal level I prefer being hopeful than pessimistic. Simple as that.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

I want to disagree here. Wardens are more then just frost mages. The frost mage fantasy is awesome, I give you that. But as good as the creation of the POSSIBILITY to play a frost mage is, as bad would it be to FORCE people into being a frost mage. I want frost to be viable. Nothing more. The time I would deem frost staff viable is the moment we get a boost of at least 5% extra damage when we use a frost staff. Not extra frost damage. 5% extra damage to everything. 6% would be awesome. Everything above - in all honesty - I deem no longer mathematically sound in regards to the massive defensive benefits frost provides in PvP. Not saying I won't take it. But I'd prefer changes that stick over changes that are going to change ^^

So yea, let's just all wait for those numbers

then you agree with what i'm saying. wardens are frost mages. yes, they also have other themes, but the OC was trying to act like frost dps wasn't a part of warden's class identity when it is. we ALL agree that how zos is going about this isn't right. tying warden's power to the frost staff is a bad idea. it was fine as it was before with increased frost damage.

Frost is their tank/defensive tree.

It is not a DPS skill line.

it literally is both of those things? they're not mutually exclusive.

It literally isn't. It's a defense skill line just like all classes have one.

ESO_Nightingale

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

That is exactly what we do not know yet. And in the end, I don't care if they drop some numbers in the process. I care about the full package! And the full package could be the worst in terms of dps! It's the gap that counts. If #1 is Sorc with 130k and number 6 is Warden with 126k - come on, that's fine with me! If Number #1 is sitting comfortably at 142k and number 6 ... say Dragonknight at 84k, I would be very, very sad with Warden sitting at .. say #3 with 97k, when Number #2 .. take Nightblade! - sits at 139k.

See, it is about viability. If discrepancy is too high, you will get filtered out of specific content by specific groups. There will be a bias against your class in a specific role. If all classes are close however, this just doesn't matter any longer.

On the other way: I DO understand where the frustration comes from, U35 was a pain. Still, on a personal level I prefer being hopeful than pessimistic. Simple as that.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

I want to disagree here. Wardens are more then just frost mages. The frost mage fantasy is awesome, I give you that. But as good as the creation of the POSSIBILITY to play a frost mage is, as bad would it be to FORCE people into being a frost mage. I want frost to be viable. Nothing more. The time I would deem frost staff viable is the moment we get a boost of at least 5% extra damage when we use a frost staff. Not extra frost damage. 5% extra damage to everything. 6% would be awesome. Everything above - in all honesty - I deem no longer mathematically sound in regards to the massive defensive benefits frost provides in PvP. Not saying I won't take it. But I'd prefer changes that stick over changes that are going to change ^^

So yea, let's just all wait for those numbers

then you agree with what i'm saying. wardens are frost mages. yes, they also have other themes, but the OC was trying to act like frost dps wasn't a part of warden's class identity when it is. we ALL agree that how zos is going about this isn't right. tying warden's power to the frost staff is a bad idea. it was fine as it was before with increased frost damage.

Frost is their tank/defensive tree.

It is not a DPS skill line.

it literally is both of those things? they're not mutually exclusive.

It literally isn't. It's a defense skill line just like all classes have one.

the line has both dps morphs and passives as well as tanking morphs and passives.

How can you not see that?

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MrLasagna wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

Spammable: animal companion
bursrt damage: animal companion
single target dot: animal companion
dps ultimate: animal comapnion

what is your comment trying to prove? this ignores that we literally have frost dps rotational skills as well, as well as passives. 1/3 of our lines are focused on frost magic. we are by definition frost mages.

I'm trying to say that Wardens are not just frost mages like someone wants them to be, I agree that Warden can also be frost mages.
If someone likes to play with ice weapon and sets they must be able to do it, so maybe just buff some ice set.
But I dont want to play as a frost mage and tying a passive to it it's just not respectufull of my style.

ESO_Nightingale

MrLasagna wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MrLasagna wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

Spammable: animal companion
bursrt damage: animal companion
single target dot: animal companion
dps ultimate: animal comapnion

what is your comment trying to prove? this ignores that we literally have frost dps rotational skills as well, as well as passives. 1/3 of our lines are focused on frost magic. we are by definition frost mages.

I'm trying to say that Wardens are not just frost mages like someone wants them to be, I agree that Warden can also be frost mages.
If someone likes to play with ice weapon and sets they must be able to do it, so maybe just buff some ice set.
But I dont want to play as a frost mage and tying a passive to it it's just not respectufull of my style.

And that's fine. However there's a lot of people that really enjoy the frost part pf warden's kit. It's allowed to be both an spirit animal summomer and a frost mage at the same time.

Caribou77

Mag Wardens are *** Mages, in pvp.

They can cast *** birds that everyone dodges, all of the time.

They can cast deep *** fissure, and work like hell to line it up for NINE SECONDS IN PVP COMBAT, to do a *** little amount of damage.

Having played *** Mage, aka MagDen, I can state this with clear and absolute confidence.

LukosCreyden

Warden has a massive identity crisis. People who want an ice mage must live with the fact that warden is NOT an ice mage and is still the closest we will ever get to one. People who want a druid must live with the fact that their druid character uses sodding ice spells for some reason instead of sticking to plants and animals as it should.

The absolute worst offender is the fact that the class forces you to use an ice staff, a TANKING weapon (why is it a tanking weapon????) to be able to play the class optimally. This is objectively poor design and should be scrapped.