The combat team should read the Warden description (another bad move in U36)

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

"Manipulate the wilds and summon powerful beasts with the Warden, a versatile Class that draws from the power of nature itself. When playing a Warden character, you can unleash the fury of the wilds upon unsuspecting intruders, wrap your allies in the healing power of the Green, and encase yourself in impenetrable, protective frost"

Warden are not ice mages, our damage should not be tied to the use of ice staves. Stop doing this to Wardens.
First a skill that works better with destro staff, now a passive that works better with ice staves.
Just stop this !!!!

Androrix

@OP Can you explain in a bit more detail what you mean please. I am not sure what U36 does.

ForumBully

Shouldn't every class have a passive or two tied to a very specific weapon or theme? What makes Wardens so "lucky"?
Surely Sorcs must get stronger with a lightning staff, or Dragonknights with a fire staff. Templars obviously must use a restoration staff to utilize all of their passives. Nightblades should be locked to daggers since they're such rogues and Necros should be at their best when they have a bone themed costume equipped.

Snamyap

Androrix wrote: »

@OP Can you explain in a bit more detail what you mean please. I am not sure what U36 does.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/617645/update-36-combat-preview/p1

TheGreatBlackBear

The idea of making warden the frost mage class is so silly. You have winter’s revenge and Northern Storm if you use it for frost damage. How do two (realistically one) skills make devs decide that that was the class niche?

ForumBully

I don't mind the idea of making more morphs do frost damage, but I hate the idea of a passive working with one specific type of weapon. "Frost Mage" doesn't need to mean "use a frost staff"

Scaletho

My friend, sorry to say that, but ZOS will push whatever they think as "improvements" no matter what the community say.

They rely on basically an old -- very old -- gaming industry culture: "push the change, take the hit, wait until the most part of the community just give up and accept".

And, or course, they count on the "it's nice" part of community. Those players who defend and/or agree with any stuff the gaming industry throw to them.

ZOS made a huge mistake by creating an Up 35 where almost all the good stuff got nerfed. And they will keep doing it again and again until ESO lost its profit value as a commercially reliable game. Then they will move on to another installment.

For us, ESO should be fun and engaging. To them, ESO is just a profit machine.

That's it.

BahometZ

Devs really screwed the pooch hard on Warden from the very beginning.

It should've been a straight up druid class, NO FROST line, just animals and earth.

Then there could be been a winter dlc, set in ruins of Atmora, with a frost skill line down the track.

Instead we've had no skill lines or classes since Psijic and Necro. The new skills have just been yoyo combat changes, whoopedidoo!

Klingenlied

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

ExoY

I personally rather enjoy the idea of a specific class meant to do frost dmg as it might add to some new class identity.
But this should mean in the end, that a frost warden can similar damage to other classes or playstyles.... that would require adjusting all the skills and passive for destro staffs, where forst staff has a more defensive rather then offensive approach
(e.g. blockade gives shield, pulsar minor protection etc)

The way it is now and announce again feels like something being half way done and not thought all the way through.

Also please make one bear ulti morph do frost damage (go polar bears!

Of course it is not ideal to trim the passives in a way, that you kinda have to play the class this way.

chessalavakia_ESO

MrLasagna wrote: »

"Manipulate the wilds and summon powerful beasts with the Warden, a versatile Class that draws from the power of nature itself. When playing a Warden character, you can unleash the fury of the wilds upon unsuspecting intruders, wrap your allies in the healing power of the Green, and encase yourself in impenetrable, protective frost"

Warden are not ice mages, our damage should not be tied to the use of ice staves. Stop doing this to Wardens.
First a skill that works better with destro staff, now a passive that works better with ice staves.
Just stop this !!!!

Recently, the PTS feedback for Wardens has included some very prolific posters that want Wardens to be about Frost.

So, the frost changes aren't totally out of nowhere.

We'll have to see what numbers they go with and do some PTS testing to see how it actually ends up going.

LeHarrt91

Im hoping that since Frost staff/ Brittle DPS is underperforming, its just going to close the gap for those that do play that style its not going to pigeonhole all playstyles just buff a lower performing one. Since they way it reads, all damage will be buffed by the passive but if you have a frost staff equipped it will be slightly better than the current DPS achieved with a Frost staff.
I dont think its going to outperform, Dual Wield or Two Hand dps.

TaSheen

I'm not playing my mains as frost mages. ICK. And yes, my mains on 3 accounts, both PC NA and EU, are Redguard wardens.

Stuff that ZOS. I'll figure out some way to get around it.

Tannus15

oh for crying out loud it's a small buff that specifically targets frost staff dps builds. it's not in any way nerfing or negatively affecting non frost staff builds. you don't want to play a frost warden? cool, go do that.

stop freaking out that other people can have nice things too.

LeHarrt91

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not playing my mains as frost mages. ICK. And yes, my mains on 3 accounts, both PC NA and EU, are Redguard wardens.

Stuff that ZOS. I'll figure out some way to get around it.

they are changing a passive that currently ONLY buffs magic and frost damage to increase ALL damage and slightly more if using a frost staff (likely will be the same amount as currently). It wont force you to be a Frost Mage.

Arunei

ForumBully wrote: »

Shouldn't every class have a passive or two tied to a very specific weapon or theme? What makes Wardens so "lucky"?
Surely Sorcs must get stronger with a lightning staff, or Dragonknights with a fire staff. Templars obviously must use a restoration staff to utilize all of their passives. Nightblades should be locked to daggers since they're such rogues and Necros should be at their best when they have a bone themed costume equipped.

Actually, afaik Fire Staffs give Sorcs better DPS than Shock Staffs do, unless that changed recently.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not playing my mains as frost mages. ICK. And yes, my mains on 3 accounts, both PC NA and EU, are Redguard wardens.

Stuff that ZOS. I'll figure out some way to get around it.

they are changing a passive that currently ONLY buffs magic and frost damage to increase ALL damage and slightly more if using a frost staff (likely will be the same amount as currently). It wont force you to be a Frost Mage.

But that may still be a DPS loss for people who don't use a Frost Staff, since they're losing the buff to Magic/Frost and also not able to use the buff from using a Frost Staff.

TaSheen

I'm tired to death of this sort of change. Sorry I stated my opinion.

LeHarrt91

Arunei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Shouldn't every class have a passive or two tied to a very specific weapon or theme? What makes Wardens so "lucky"?
Surely Sorcs must get stronger with a lightning staff, or Dragonknights with a fire staff. Templars obviously must use a restoration staff to utilize all of their passives. Nightblades should be locked to daggers since they're such rogues and Necros should be at their best when they have a bone themed costume equipped.

Actually, afaik Fire Staffs give Sorcs better DPS than Shock Staffs do, unless that changed recently.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not playing my mains as frost mages. ICK. And yes, my mains on 3 accounts, both PC NA and EU, are Redguard wardens.

Stuff that ZOS. I'll figure out some way to get around it.

they are changing a passive that currently ONLY buffs magic and frost damage to increase ALL damage and slightly more if using a frost staff (likely will be the same amount as currently). It wont force you to be a Frost Mage.

But that may still be a DPS loss for people who don't use a Frost Staff, since they're losing the buff to Magic/Frost and also not able to use the buff from using a Frost Staff.

But it could also be a buff because in PvE Dual Wield wardens in Relequen, Zaan and Pillar of Nirn will have all those sets and damage types like poison and physical buffed.
Double Inferno staff users will have Flame damage and Light/ Heavy attacks buffed, so in the long run it could be a overall buff.

But we will have to wait and see the full extent of the change.

Arunei

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Shouldn't every class have a passive or two tied to a very specific weapon or theme? What makes Wardens so "lucky"?
Surely Sorcs must get stronger with a lightning staff, or Dragonknights with a fire staff. Templars obviously must use a restoration staff to utilize all of their passives. Nightblades should be locked to daggers since they're such rogues and Necros should be at their best when they have a bone themed costume equipped.

Actually, afaik Fire Staffs give Sorcs better DPS than Shock Staffs do, unless that changed recently.

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm not playing my mains as frost mages. ICK. And yes, my mains on 3 accounts, both PC NA and EU, are Redguard wardens.

Stuff that ZOS. I'll figure out some way to get around it.

they are changing a passive that currently ONLY buffs magic and frost damage to increase ALL damage and slightly more if using a frost staff (likely will be the same amount as currently). It wont force you to be a Frost Mage.

But that may still be a DPS loss for people who don't use a Frost Staff, since they're losing the buff to Magic/Frost and also not able to use the buff from using a Frost Staff.

But it could also be a buff because in PvE Dual Wield wardens in Relequen, Zaan and Pillar of Nirn will have all those sets and damage types like poison and physical buffed.
Double Inferno staff users will have Flame damage and Light/ Heavy attacks buffed, so in the long run it could be a overall buff.

But we will have to wait and see the full extent of the change.

It won't affect me either way, since I don't play a Warden, but I do feel sorry for anyone who winds up getting nerfed depending on the change. A lot of people still haven't recovered from u35's nerfs yet.

TheGreatBlackBear

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

ForumBully

Arunei wrote: »

Actually, afaik Fire Staffs give Sorcs better DPS than Shock Staffs do, unless that changed recently.

Actually, that has nothing to do with a passive aimed at a specific weapon type.

Arunei

ForumBully wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Actually, afaik Fire Staffs give Sorcs better DPS than Shock Staffs do, unless that changed recently.

Actually, that has nothing to do with a passive aimed at a specific weapon type.

It has everything to do with saying Sorcs use Shock Staff but that's not the case, at least I don't believe so, because Flame Staffs give better DPS. I don't remember Sorcs having a passive that gives them more DPS from equipping a specific weapon, so basically not every Class is shoehorned into specific weapons because of passives.

ForumBully

Arunei wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Actually, afaik Fire Staffs give Sorcs better DPS than Shock Staffs do, unless that changed recently.

Actually, that has nothing to do with a passive aimed at a specific weapon type.

It has everything to do with saying Sorcs use Shock Staff but that's not the case, at least I don't believe so, because Flame Staffs give better DPS. I don't remember Sorcs having a passive that gives them more DPS from equipping a specific weapon, so basically not every Class is shoehorned into specific weapons because of passives.

That was the point. How are you not getting this? Wardens have a passive that works with a specific weapon type.
Just gotta chalk it up to a reading comprehension issue and leave it alone I guess.
No one is saying any class but Warden has a weapon specific passive. Warden has one and shouldn't because it's as ridiculous as saying sorcs must use lightning or dks must use fire.

Androrix

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Recently, the PTS feedback for Wardens has included some very prolific posters that want Wardens to be about Frost.

So, the frost changes aren't totally out of nowhere.

This is interesting. Devs should be careful about catering to particularly vocal minorities--it seems to be a problem. I am guessing those players use light armor too. Medium armor users really lack penetration, so the penetration passive did help us. I don't know what the right answer is but either way the constant switch-swotching is becoming a real pain in the tush. Wonder what they will change next week.

INM

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Recently, the PTS feedback for Wardens has included some very prolific posters that want Wardens to be about Frost.

So, the frost changes aren't totally out of nowhere.

We'll have to see what numbers they go with and do some PTS testing to see how it actually ends up going.

It's not even recently, some players were complaining since Morrowind that wardens must be viable (read as meta) frost mages and frost staves must be viable (read as meta) dps weapons . Most of the time those complaints were from the same people. Brittle and sets like Frostbite were introduced bacially in response to this feedback, frost clench was turned into a frost spammable because of this. Seems like ZoS decided to kill two birds with one stone.

ESO_Nightingale

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

Spammable: animal companion
bursrt damage: animal companion
single target dot: animal companion
dps ultimate: animal comapnion

Klingenlied

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

That is exactly what we do not know yet. And in the end, I don't care if they drop some numbers in the process. I care about the full package! And the full package could be the worst in terms of dps! It's the gap that counts. If #1 is Sorc with 130k and number 6 is Warden with 126k - come on, that's fine with me! If Number #1 is sitting comfortably at 142k and number 6 ... say Dragonknight at 84k, I would be very, very sad with Warden sitting at .. say #3 with 97k, when Number #2 .. take Nightblade! - sits at 139k.

See, it is about viability. If discrepancy is too high, you will get filtered out of specific content by specific groups. There will be a bias against your class in a specific role. If all classes are close however, this just doesn't matter any longer.

On the other way: I DO understand where the frustration comes from, U35 was a pain. Still, on a personal level I prefer being hopeful than pessimistic. Simple as that.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

I want to disagree here. Wardens are more then just frost mages. The frost mage fantasy is awesome, I give you that. But as good as the creation of the POSSIBILITY to play a frost mage is, as bad would it be to FORCE people into being a frost mage. I want frost to be viable. Nothing more. The time I would deem frost staff viable is the moment we get a boost of at least 5% extra damage when we use a frost staff. Not extra frost damage. 5% extra damage to everything. 6% would be awesome. Everything above - in all honesty - I deem no longer mathematically sound in regards to the massive defensive benefits frost provides in PvP. Not saying I won't take it. But I'd prefer changes that stick over changes that are going to change ^^

So yea, let's just all wait for those numbers

dmnqwk

As long as my stamden doesn't lose damage I don't see an issue here.

Tying skills to frost staff is simply an attempt to get Magdens on an even keel with stamdens, but the fact that there is no execute ability for some magicka classes is why it never works out.

This is simply the latest attempt to Make a Magden Great Again (MAGMA) and it's not terrible, but obviously the crit damage alteration might make people unable to play a stamden because of crit damage cap.

As for the specifics - I think it would need to be something like:
Class abilities deal up to 30% more based on your maximum magicka (1% per 1000 magicka).
This would give about what is necessary for stamdens with 12k, but allow magicka users to get the buff necessary to compete?

ESO_Nightingale

MrLasagna wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

Spammable: animal companion
bursrt damage: animal companion
single target dot: animal companion
dps ultimate: animal comapnion

what is your comment trying to prove? this ignores that we literally have frost dps rotational skills as well, as well as passives. 1/3 of our lines are focused on frost magic. we are by definition frost mages.

ESO_Nightingale

Klingenlied wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Klingenlied wrote: »

We don't yet have any details. If frost staffs got a bonus of 2,5%/5% damage extra, that would make them exactly 5% worse then flame for single, 5% worse then lightning for ae. Would make ice for PvP too strong maybe. But would be a really nice balance struck for PvE.

I would agree however that Warden - or any class at that - should not be locked into the usage of any specific weapon. And dual wield dominance for dps right now is what I dislike - not dual wield in general, but that the gap between dw & everything there after is too big.

In a "perfect" ESO, melee would be the best in melee range, staffs would be optimal for close to mid range and bows would perform slightly better at long range. Thus, we would have a niche for everything. Staffs are more diverse though. We got one that excels for single target, one for ae damage, one for tanking and not for dps - with a 10% damage discrepancy.

So everything will depend on the exact numbers.

I love how we’re pretending like we’re not gonna have a situation where the warden skills will have their tooltips dropped and you’d have to equip a frost staff to maybe see 80% of pre change damage. Because that’s literally what’s gonna happen.

That is exactly what we do not know yet. And in the end, I don't care if they drop some numbers in the process. I care about the full package! And the full package could be the worst in terms of dps! It's the gap that counts. If #1 is Sorc with 130k and number 6 is Warden with 126k - come on, that's fine with me! If Number #1 is sitting comfortably at 142k and number 6 ... say Dragonknight at 84k, I would be very, very sad with Warden sitting at .. say #3 with 97k, when Number #2 .. take Nightblade! - sits at 139k.

See, it is about viability. If discrepancy is too high, you will get filtered out of specific content by specific groups. There will be a bias against your class in a specific role. If all classes are close however, this just doesn't matter any longer.

On the other way: I DO understand where the frustration comes from, U35 was a pain. Still, on a personal level I prefer being hopeful than pessimistic. Simple as that.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I think the problem here is that zos's way of going around this doesn't read paticularly well to people who go without an ice staff.
They really should have just kept the +10% frost damage bonus. If they wanted to increase all damage, they could have made it like "increases your damage done by 6%, increases your frost damage done by 4%."

Wardens are frost mages and just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not the case. It's been catered to by zos.

I want to disagree here. Wardens are more then just frost mages. The frost mage fantasy is awesome, I give you that. But as good as the creation of the POSSIBILITY to play a frost mage is, as bad would it be to FORCE people into being a frost mage. I want frost to be viable. Nothing more. The time I would deem frost staff viable is the moment we get a boost of at least 5% extra damage when we use a frost staff. Not extra frost damage. 5% extra damage to everything. 6% would be awesome. Everything above - in all honesty - I deem no longer mathematically sound in regards to the massive defensive benefits frost provides in PvP. Not saying I won't take it. But I'd prefer changes that stick over changes that are going to change ^^

So yea, let's just all wait for those numbers

then you agree with what i'm saying. wardens are frost mages. yes, they also have other themes, but the OC was trying to act like frost dps wasn't a part of warden's class identity when it is. we ALL agree that how zos is going about this isn't right. tying warden's power to the frost staff is a bad idea. it was fine as it was before with increased frost damage.