Would you be OK with ZOS not releasing 1 or 2 content updates and fixed bugs instead?

FlopsyPrince

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

FlopsyPrince

Dragonnord wrote: »

[snip]

I just don't want ZOS to waste valuable time on non-game breaking and irrelevant bugs, instead, keep releasing content.

ZOS fixes bugs, constantly, non-stop. [snip]

[edited to remove quote]
 

You might find value in looking into the broken window theory of cities. Bugs are like broken windows in a city. They cloud what should otherwise be good and lead to negative things.

Dragonnord

More PvE Updates

And there they are! Just what I said dozens of times in this thread.

ZOS DOES NOT STOP CONTENT, instead, they FIX BUGS DURING MAINTENANCE OR A BIG PATCH, like in this case with Update 36 where the PvE content is coming but ALSO BUG FIXING like they state here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/617645/update-36-combat-preview

So, THANK YOU ZOS for doing it the right way.
 

boi_anachronism_

Fix Bugs

Just like they fixed the issue where people were getting unlimited seals of endeavor, login rewards and writs and then they never removed that from the abusing accounts?

Carcamongus

Fix Bugs

Okay, I get it content creation and bug fixing are dealt with by different teams. However, the more content you create, the more bugs will come along to join the already considerable list of existing issues. Why is the list so long? Is the bugs team overwhelmed? Is there lack of communication between it and the other teams? Why do some old bugs just resurface on new content, such as the classic "can't pick WB quest items"?

It's hard for us to know what's going on. If not releasing as much content as they usually do during a limited period of time (say, one year) could help with the bugs, then I'm in favor.

Lebkuchen

Fix Bugs

When i think of ZOS handling bugfixes and performance issues, i imagine the shared appartments i lived in when i was younger. In desperate need of a cleaning service, or at least a benevolent mom cleaning up the biggest mess... At the moment it is not possible to invite friends without feeling ashamed.

Lebkuchen

Fix Bugs

I forgot: While someone cleans up the mess, the other teams can get out in the world and find some inspiration for quality content. I am pretty sure they could use a break and some free time.

FlopsyPrince

Lebkuchen wrote: »

When i think of ZOS handling bugfixes and performance issues, i imagine the shared appartments i lived in when i was younger. In desperate need of a cleaning service, or at least a benevolent mom cleaning up the biggest mess... At the moment it is not possible to invite friends without feeling ashamed.

The problem is you need an incentive to do such things. No mom would gain anything by doing such clean up. Right now fixing bugs does not provide any gain either, at least in the eyes of management, so no time is dedicated to it.

That is not completely true of course, because some things have been fixed, but then the fixes may have introduced another bug. Take the markers on the ladders in the AD IC base. They are now properly on the ladders in the AD base, not routed through another alliance's base. But now we can't see the end target of many quests, only the next door to go through.

These may not be related, but most likely are since they happened at the same time. Fixing bugs requires thought too, not just random fixes.

Olen_Mikko

Money talks. Fixing stuff means cutting down revenues.

FlopsyPrince

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Money talks. Fixing stuff means cutting down revenues.

It is not a direct correlation, though not releasing new content would have that impact.

The danger is that leaving a lot of bugs and frustrations around can lead to dropped revenues.

psychotrip

Dragonnord wrote: »

mzprx wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

...Sure! Game braking and so important is that bug that has been almost forever and have survived millions of battles.

PvP has been empty for 10 years because of that bug, right?

Rejected.
 

have you ever heard of World of Tanks? i play it from time to time. one of the most toxic, broken PTW games out there. and still one of the most played games ever. players will put up with a lot of negative stuff if they like the game. so even though the never ending "in combat" bug exists it doesn't mean the game is going to be empty. it's just very frustrating. and one of those bugs that have endured in the game for a long time..

Dragonnord wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

What bugs?

Name one bug that is game breaking. In fact, name a bug of medium importance that needs to be fixed asap.

The game is in a solid state.
 

Oh boy, where to start... perma in-combat literally makes it impossible to progress unless your groupmates are able to pull you through to boss fight, Cyrodiil becomes marathon running track. Skills not firing that can be the death of you. Random crashes that some people still experiences and etc. Surely, bug-free game indeed, yes.

Perma in-combat in PvE? Where? In Wayrest Sewers because people aggro and don't kill the crocodiles in first room, so they remain in combat and then think the door is bugged?
Also, if you are in a group and your team mates are in combat it's logic you are in combat too (it's a group), so wait until they finish or you'll be pulled if it's a boss.

I answered the Cyrodiil in-combat bug above already.

Skills not firing? When? Time your animation cancelling better then and don't send two requests at the same time for hurring your clicks. If you do that, I'll assure you 100% that every single skill will fire. Just don't hurry them or learn to know their cast times and timings.

Random crashes? When it's ZOS fault they fix them asap in weekly maintenances.
Otherwise, show me proof that is the game and not addons or potato machines causing them and we'll talk.
 

i have encountered being stuck in permanent combat in Deshaan a couple of days ago. for no reason. it's not just Wayrest Sewers..

you have answered the Cyrodiil combat bug above, but that answer doesn't make sense. if a bug exists in the game and it's not been fixed in years there's something wrong with the developers. they are either lazy or they don't know how to fix it. but if such bug exists you can not say the game is in a "solid state". if you haven't encountered this particular bug you haven't been to Cyrodiil enough..

if you go to YT you can find a lot of videos where skills or abilities weren't firing. one of the funnier ones - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGpPDv6r6nI

and regarding the random crashes, i will try to have a couple of friends to visit this thread and tell you about their experience. they are not using any addons, have decent PCs and yet they randomly crash every-now-and-then...

I've been playing since beta, have experienced everything, and the game is in a solid state.

Take it as you want, but game's completely playable and needs no urgent attention on bugs.

Content is what it's required to keep it,going.

PS: Tell your friends to bring proof, not just words or mouth blah, blah, blah's...
 

Doesnt this go both ways? Prove that the game works fine, I guess.

HerrKeinTipp_MrNoTip

Fix Bugs

At this point I'd buy bug fixes from the crown store.

boi_anachronism_

Fix Bugs

Dragonnord wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

All of these things I have discussed I have reported and several of them I have gotten messages back from zos to say they have been investing fixes.

So ZOS said they are working on them and you complain? Every single game has and will always have bugs, the company already stated they will be fixed and you still complain?

I heard Solitaire and Minesweeper have no bugs. Maybe those work for you.
 

So the game is fine it's in a good state and then you acknowledge that their are actually bugs that need to be fixed?

You arrived late to the party as clrearly you missed several of my posts where I said that there are bugs but NONE are game-breaking.

No need to stop to fix irrelevant bugs, we need more content coming while bugs are fixed along the way, as always.
 

Controls not working is a game breaking bug lol. Getting kicked out of content is game breaking. You CLEARLY do not understand what constitutes game breaking. When a bug prevents you from playing, crashes your game constantly or prevents you from doing/ progressing in content it's game breaking. This isn't like oh a door doesn't work periodically. 😂

Oh! And what game in this world doesn't have bugs, crashes and so? Every SINGLE game in this planet.

Still, you want ESO to stop producing content for a while to fix stuff that every game has and will have for the eternity of gaming?

Bugs were, are and will be around always, sometimes even the same bugs will return, so ZOS can't stop to fix something that will be always here.

Bugs are fixed as the game moves on, with weekly maintenance or when big patches are released, so stop complaining, be comprehensive, be patient and move on you too.
 

[snip] There are plenty of games that don't have bugs like that. Ffs friggin pokemon doesn't have bugs like that straight crash the game every hour. I can think of console games going all the way back to Dreamcast that didn't have bugs like that. [snip] Zos shouldn't fix bugs cause they will always be there? What? My laundry is always gonna be there too bud. I still gotta do it regularly. [snip] I'm not asking you to fix a bloody door, I'm asking them to fix things that ACTIVELY prevent you from playing the content. [snip]

[snip] Tell me what part I said ZOS should not fix bugs?

I said ZOS should not stop content producing as bugs are fixed along the way (with weekly maintenances and big patches as always).

[snip]
 
[edited for baiting]

Tell that to the Xbox players who have been unable to log in during the event at all and missed huge chunks of the event as a result.

Amottica

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Durnik

other (please elaborate)

Other.
Imagine if Microsoft only made fixes and never improved their software. Imagine if car companies only made the same car but improved gas mileage.

So.. Other. A project team should be handling bug fixes separate to new features and changes.

Bugs that have been around for years (slow bug, streak, mounting "in combat", etc.) need new management involved since it is obvious that the current team isn't getting the job done. Whether it is the project team, developers, or the management we don't know but they do. Replace the weakest link.

DMuehlhausen

other (please elaborate)

These posts always come up and the answer is always the same.

1. You can never eliminate bugs. It's completely impossible to have a bug free program. Specially in games like this where the code is so entwined after a near decade. The only way to fix the code is to make ESO 2 at this point. Fixing code for the base game quest might break something in The Reach and you can never really test for that.

2. The teams are not the same people. You have people making content, you have people fixing bugs, writing quests, doing art etc and a lot of them don't even communicate.

Arunei

Fix Bugs

I voted to fix bugs, but honestly, that's not how game development works. There are different departments that handle different things, and the people who code them are likely not going to be trained or capable in coding other things. Those who develop assets for the game probably have no idea how to fix bugs or otherwise work with troubleshooting the code. You can't expect a studio to just throw everyone and all their funds at one specific thing. That leads to things just getting broken more when inexperienced people try to work on code they don't actually know how to work with. And you can't say put all the funding towards one department because then the other departments essentially have no pay.

So they can't nix content development for a whole year, let alone longer, and focus only of fixing performance and bugs. Actually, I probably should have picked Other, now that I think about it.

FlopsyPrince

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Of course they fix some bugs.

But they leave a great many around. The guy stuck in the wall in the Clockwork city zone had been there for years. Encounter a bug today and you are likely to find complaints about it on the forums 5 years ago. Your point is misleading.

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

These posts always come up and the answer is always the same.

1. You can never eliminate bugs. It's completely impossible to have a bug free program. Specially in games like this where the code is so entwined after a near decade. The only way to fix the code is to make ESO 2 at this point. Fixing code for the base game quest might break something in The Reach and you can never really test for that.

2. The teams are not the same people. You have people making content, you have people fixing bugs, writing quests, doing art etc and a lot of them don't even communicate.

1 - Silly idea. Yes, bugs happen. But you still should actively fix them.

2 - That is not a requirement. Those writing original code can also fix bugs. I noted before that I have worked on past projects where you had to fix any bugs you made, under the theory you would pay more attention in the future.

Yeah, fixing bugs is not as glamorous as developing new features, but it is a necessary part of any development process. The idea it can be ignored in many cases is not well thought out.

FlopsyPrince

The different groups argument shows a poor understanding of software development. Putting the lower skilled people on bug fixing is a major part of why many systems struggle so much.

Eiregirl

Fix Bugs

Fix the bugs and more performance improvements.

Eiregirl

Fix Bugs

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

Every MMO I have ever played has bugs but of all the games I have played ESO is the slowest at getting them fixed. I would not expect them to have them all fixed overnight or even in a few months but to still have bugs hanging around from one update to the next to the next etc. that they have been informed about multiple times but will not even tell you if it is being looked into. Not that they have to fix anything or tell us anything it would still be nice if they did.

wolfie1.0.

I don't see why they can't do both. They have teams for both.

Amottica

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Of course they fix some bugs.

But they leave a great many around. The guy stuck in the wall in the Clockwork city zone had been there for years. Encounter a bug today and you are likely to find complaints about it on the forums 5 years ago. Your point is misleading..

My point is not misleading at all. It was 100% accurate and on completely on topic with the comment, I quoted. In fact, the comment I quoted used a bank app where the bank NEVER FIXED BUGS and I pointed out that Zenimax has fixed bugs and they do it regularly.

There is a bug in a different MMORPG that occurs during a raid boss fight in their equivalent of vet HM. It has existed since before ESO went live and still exists today. When it happens to a player they will die, cannot be resurrected during the fight, and often causes groups to miss the enrage timer. It is still around today which makes it far older than five years.

How does that NPC being stuck in the wall impact gameplay?

FlopsyPrince

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Of course they fix some bugs.

But they leave a great many around. The guy stuck in the wall in the Clockwork city zone had been there for years. Encounter a bug today and you are likely to find complaints about it on the forums 5 years ago. Your point is misleading..

My point is not misleading at all. It was 100% accurate and on completely on topic with the comment, I quoted. In fact, the comment I quoted used a bank app where the bank NEVER FIXED BUGS and I pointed out that Zenimax has fixed bugs and they do it regularly.

There is a bug in a different MMORPG that occurs during a raid boss fight in their equivalent of vet HM. It has existed since before ESO went live and still exists today. When it happens to a player they will die, cannot be resurrected during the fight, and often causes groups to miss the enrage timer. It is still around today which makes it far older than five years.

How does that NPC being stuck in the wall impact gameplay?

We are discussing ESO here, not another MMO.

The guy stuck in the wall made me waste quite a bit of time finding him years ago.

My point was not that it was the worst bug, but that it remained unfixed for years. Find a bug that benefits the players and it will be quickly hotfixed. Find one that doesn't and the delay is normally very long. (This is across MMOs though.)

I understand that it can be dangerous to fix some bugs, since I could not fix a typo I found on a key website years ago because the risks were something else could break (for any fix, not this one). That doesn't mean bugs should hang around so long.

Whether other MMOs are bad is not relevant here. We are talking about ESO and more bug fixing focus is clearly needed. I don't expect it to happen though, since player needs/desires are not as important to development schedules as much as management direction is. The latter will always hold the authority. That is why this is a management issue, not a specific developer issue.

Elsonso

More PvE Updates

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Money talks. Fixing stuff means cutting down revenues.

Yeah, but if they wanted to cut development costs and shift to other products, this would be an excellent foot in the door. The PR team can easily sell a couple "maintenance DLCs" while the bulk of the team is off on other projects. I think revenues would be steady. I mean, if people stuck around through this year...

FlopsyPrince

Elsonso wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Money talks. Fixing stuff means cutting down revenues.

Yeah, but if they wanted to cut development costs and shift to other products, this would be an excellent foot in the door. The PR team can easily sell a couple "maintenance DLCs" while the bulk of the team is off on other projects. I think revenues would be steady. I mean, if people stuck around through this year...

I doubt retention is considered as much as it should be in their financial planning. It rarely is in things like this. Though keeping a customer is easier than getting a new one.

Amottica

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Of course they fix some bugs.

But they leave a great many around. The guy stuck in the wall in the Clockwork city zone had been there for years. Encounter a bug today and you are likely to find complaints about it on the forums 5 years ago. Your point is misleading..

My point is not misleading at all. It was 100% accurate and on completely on topic with the comment, I quoted. In fact, the comment I quoted used a bank app where the bank NEVER FIXED BUGS and I pointed out that Zenimax has fixed bugs and they do it regularly.

There is a bug in a different MMORPG that occurs during a raid boss fight in their equivalent of vet HM. It has existed since before ESO went live and still exists today. When it happens to a player they will die, cannot be resurrected during the fight, and often causes groups to miss the enrage timer. It is still around today which makes it far older than five years.

How does that NPC being stuck in the wall impact gameplay?

We are discussing ESO here, not another MMO.

The guy stuck in the wall made me waste quite a bit of time finding him years ago.

My point was not that it was the worst bug, but that it remained unfixed for years. Find a bug that benefits the players and it will be quickly hotfixed. Find one that doesn't and the delay is normally very long. (This is across MMOs though.)

I understand that it can be dangerous to fix some bugs, since I could not fix a typo I found on a key website years ago because the risks were something else could break (for any fix, not this one). That doesn't mean bugs should hang around so long.

Whether other MMOs are bad is not relevant here. We are talking about ESO and more bug fixing focus is clearly needed. I don't expect it to happen though, since player needs/desires are not as important to development schedules as much as management direction is. The latter will always hold the authority. That is why this is a management issue, not a specific developer issue.

It seems very appropriate to discuss the relevant industry with this topic. Especially since my accurate comments on the industry reflect how Zenimax approaches this issue. It is much more Germain than a hypothetical concerning a bank's app.

The simple fact is there is no reasonable expectation that Zenimax will fix all bugs. It will not happen ever.

FlopsyPrince

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Of course they fix some bugs.

But they leave a great many around. The guy stuck in the wall in the Clockwork city zone had been there for years. Encounter a bug today and you are likely to find complaints about it on the forums 5 years ago. Your point is misleading..

My point is not misleading at all. It was 100% accurate and on completely on topic with the comment, I quoted. In fact, the comment I quoted used a bank app where the bank NEVER FIXED BUGS and I pointed out that Zenimax has fixed bugs and they do it regularly.

There is a bug in a different MMORPG that occurs during a raid boss fight in their equivalent of vet HM. It has existed since before ESO went live and still exists today. When it happens to a player they will die, cannot be resurrected during the fight, and often causes groups to miss the enrage timer. It is still around today which makes it far older than five years.

How does that NPC being stuck in the wall impact gameplay?

We are discussing ESO here, not another MMO.

The guy stuck in the wall made me waste quite a bit of time finding him years ago.

My point was not that it was the worst bug, but that it remained unfixed for years. Find a bug that benefits the players and it will be quickly hotfixed. Find one that doesn't and the delay is normally very long. (This is across MMOs though.)

I understand that it can be dangerous to fix some bugs, since I could not fix a typo I found on a key website years ago because the risks were something else could break (for any fix, not this one). That doesn't mean bugs should hang around so long.

Whether other MMOs are bad is not relevant here. We are talking about ESO and more bug fixing focus is clearly needed. I don't expect it to happen though, since player needs/desires are not as important to development schedules as much as management direction is. The latter will always hold the authority. That is why this is a management issue, not a specific developer issue.

It seems very appropriate to discuss the relevant industry with this topic. Especially since my accurate comments on the industry reflect how Zenimax approaches this issue. It is much more Germain than a hypothetical concerning a bank's app.

The simple fact is there is no reasonable expectation that Zenimax will fix all bugs. It will not happen ever.

That is not accurate. The modern malaise of many with MMOs and the hype train about Ashes of Creation (I think that is it) is exactly because of this lack of focus on fixing things. Being "just like everyone else" in this area is not a good thing.

Most MMOs don't have a card game as a key boxed release feature. I am guessing you were fine with that addition, even though it is not "common" in MMOs. (A few having that or similar does not make it common.)

The point some of us are making is that many of these bugs harm the play experience and create negative things that can easily greatly damage the viability of the game.

Most other MMOs are not doing well either. So the "let the bugs be" approach is not proving good. I don't know FF XIV's issues (or not) in that area, but I know WoW did that when I played many years back and it is finally biting them, among other things.

Amottica

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Of course they fix some bugs.

But they leave a great many around. The guy stuck in the wall in the Clockwork city zone had been there for years. Encounter a bug today and you are likely to find complaints about it on the forums 5 years ago. Your point is misleading..

My point is not misleading at all. It was 100% accurate and on completely on topic with the comment, I quoted. In fact, the comment I quoted used a bank app where the bank NEVER FIXED BUGS and I pointed out that Zenimax has fixed bugs and they do it regularly.

There is a bug in a different MMORPG that occurs during a raid boss fight in their equivalent of vet HM. It has existed since before ESO went live and still exists today. When it happens to a player they will die, cannot be resurrected during the fight, and often causes groups to miss the enrage timer. It is still around today which makes it far older than five years.

How does that NPC being stuck in the wall impact gameplay?

We are discussing ESO here, not another MMO.

The guy stuck in the wall made me waste quite a bit of time finding him years ago.

My point was not that it was the worst bug, but that it remained unfixed for years. Find a bug that benefits the players and it will be quickly hotfixed. Find one that doesn't and the delay is normally very long. (This is across MMOs though.)

I understand that it can be dangerous to fix some bugs, since I could not fix a typo I found on a key website years ago because the risks were something else could break (for any fix, not this one). That doesn't mean bugs should hang around so long.

Whether other MMOs are bad is not relevant here. We are talking about ESO and more bug fixing focus is clearly needed. I don't expect it to happen though, since player needs/desires are not as important to development schedules as much as management direction is. The latter will always hold the authority. That is why this is a management issue, not a specific developer issue.

It seems very appropriate to discuss the relevant industry with this topic. Especially since my accurate comments on the industry reflect how Zenimax approaches this issue. It is much more Germain than a hypothetical concerning a bank's app.

The simple fact is there is no reasonable expectation that Zenimax will fix all bugs. It will not happen ever.

That is not accurate. The modern malaise of many with MMOs and the hype train about Ashes of Creation (I think that is it) is exactly because of this lack of focus on fixing things. Being "just like everyone else" in this area is not a good thing.

Most MMOs don't have a card game as a key boxed release feature. I am guessing you were fine with that addition, even though it is not "common" in MMOs. (A few having that or similar does not make it common.)

The point some of us are making is that many of these bugs harm the play experience and create negative things that can easily greatly damage the viability of the game.

Most other MMOs are not doing well either. So the "let the bugs be" approach is not proving good. I don't know FF XIV's issues (or not) in that area, but I know WoW did that when I played many years back and it is finally biting them, among other things.

Not sure where AoC came from as that game is still in alpha and has been for years.

I am speaking to the facts MMORPGs across all times, successful and not. My comments are even reflected in what is the most successful AAA MMORPG we have today, FF14.

That reality is the bugs that have persisted for years even though they have been reported many times are bugs Zenimax has cleared decided are not worth the effort and cost to fix. Maybe some will be fixed someday but they will never fix all of them.

I respect you have an oppinion of how you would like to be. I have merely pointed out facts from the industry that devs choose to not fox every bug in their MMORPGs. As such, we have no reasonable expectation that Zenimax will do this any differently.

Have a good day and best wishes for enjoying the game.

FlopsyPrince

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

PrimusTiberius wrote: »

Name one digital game that doesn't have bugs......this topic is getting old

That is a cop out excuse. Would you accept it if your bank had an app where they never fixed bugs?

Yes, bugs happen, but they need to be fixed, especially when the product (an MMO in this case) is what people are paying for.

But I got a card game I never sought nor desired rather than may bug fixes and quality of life improvements I have noted over the years.

But Zenimax does fix bugs, so the question concerning the bank never fixing bugs with their app does not correlate.

Here is an patch that fixed a lot of bugs. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/616926/pc-mac-patch-notes-v8-1-6#latest

@PrimusTiberius is correct, There is not an MMORPG out there where every bug has been fixed. MMORPGs also continue to add content even though there are bugs they have chosen not to fix. There is no difference here in ESO.

Of course they fix some bugs.

But they leave a great many around. The guy stuck in the wall in the Clockwork city zone had been there for years. Encounter a bug today and you are likely to find complaints about it on the forums 5 years ago. Your point is misleading..

My point is not misleading at all. It was 100% accurate and on completely on topic with the comment, I quoted. In fact, the comment I quoted used a bank app where the bank NEVER FIXED BUGS and I pointed out that Zenimax has fixed bugs and they do it regularly.

There is a bug in a different MMORPG that occurs during a raid boss fight in their equivalent of vet HM. It has existed since before ESO went live and still exists today. When it happens to a player they will die, cannot be resurrected during the fight, and often causes groups to miss the enrage timer. It is still around today which makes it far older than five years.

How does that NPC being stuck in the wall impact gameplay?

We are discussing ESO here, not another MMO.

The guy stuck in the wall made me waste quite a bit of time finding him years ago.

My point was not that it was the worst bug, but that it remained unfixed for years. Find a bug that benefits the players and it will be quickly hotfixed. Find one that doesn't and the delay is normally very long. (This is across MMOs though.)

I understand that it can be dangerous to fix some bugs, since I could not fix a typo I found on a key website years ago because the risks were something else could break (for any fix, not this one). That doesn't mean bugs should hang around so long.

Whether other MMOs are bad is not relevant here. We are talking about ESO and more bug fixing focus is clearly needed. I don't expect it to happen though, since player needs/desires are not as important to development schedules as much as management direction is. The latter will always hold the authority. That is why this is a management issue, not a specific developer issue.

It seems very appropriate to discuss the relevant industry with this topic. Especially since my accurate comments on the industry reflect how Zenimax approaches this issue. It is much more Germain than a hypothetical concerning a bank's app.

The simple fact is there is no reasonable expectation that Zenimax will fix all bugs. It will not happen ever.

That is not accurate. The modern malaise of many with MMOs and the hype train about Ashes of Creation (I think that is it) is exactly because of this lack of focus on fixing things. Being "just like everyone else" in this area is not a good thing.

Most MMOs don't have a card game as a key boxed release feature. I am guessing you were fine with that addition, even though it is not "common" in MMOs. (A few having that or similar does not make it common.)

The point some of us are making is that many of these bugs harm the play experience and create negative things that can easily greatly damage the viability of the game.

Most other MMOs are not doing well either. So the "let the bugs be" approach is not proving good. I don't know FF XIV's issues (or not) in that area, but I know WoW did that when I played many years back and it is finally biting them, among other things.

Not sure where AoC came from as that game is still in alpha and has been for years.

I am speaking to the facts MMORPGs across all times, successful and not. My comments are even reflected in what is the most successful AAA MMORPG we have today, FF14.

That reality is the bugs that have persisted for years even though they have been reported many times are bugs Zenimax has cleared decided are not worth the effort and cost to fix. Maybe some will be fixed someday but they will never fix all of them.

I respect you have an oppinion of how you would like to be. I have merely pointed out facts from the industry that devs choose to not fox every bug in their MMORPGs. As such, we have no reasonable expectation that Zenimax will do this any differently.

Have a good day and best wishes for enjoying the game.

Who decides whether bugs are worth the cost to fix? Of course that was the past decision, but some old ones did finally get fixed, which goes against your argument.

You are only correct in that it will always be a management choice on what to fix. They control how much effort to spend on what parts. That doesn't mean they should not do things differently. Those who ask for more are trying to have input. Yeah, most of that is not helpful, but that is the normal reason.

I brought up AoC because its hype train is only getting so many riders because other current MMOs have serious problems. Yeah, things may seem to work, but Atari 2600 game sales seemed to work until they didn't....