Is More Accessibility Important?
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Ittrix✭✭✭[b]No, as a veteran[/b] I feel more accessibility [b]isn't[/b] importantYou need to quit thinking that ESO is all about the endgame. It is not. If your goal in ESO is only to reach the "endgame" (what is that anyway? Vet trials? Vet HM? Trifecta? Score push?) then that's fine -- play your way. But there are many, many other players who don't give a hoot about trials or vet DLC dungeon achievements. It's not why they log in, and it's not what defines their reasons for playing this game.
I can only speak for myself here but as a former hardcore WoW raider one reason I gravitated more to ESO was that getting anything done in WoW was starting to feel more like a job. 3 hour raids, 3 nights a week, on multiple toons, in raids with 7 to 12 bosses or more, and then the next raid comes out and all that Heroic and Mythic gear you worked for is now junk and you get to start over again.
I watched as WoW devs ignored literally every other aspect of the game except for the endgame, making levelling, questing, pvp, dungeons and more completely irrelevant and afterthoughts. The entire game became built around raiding and (later) Mythic+ Keystone dungeons, even the last bastion of PvP (ranked arena play) finally withered and dried up due to complete neglect.
The very, very last thing I want in ESO is for the devs to decide that the endgame is the only game that matters. I want ESO's main focus to continue to be on the stories, the questlines and the play experience.
I don't think this game needs more accessibility. What it needs is more training systems in-game to teach players how group content in ESO works, and get them over that fear of failure/of looking "bad" that seems to keep them out.
In other words, the true "bar to accessibility" is not the difficulty of the content, it's players' own fear of trying that content, and ZOS's inability to build any kind of system into ESO that helps players learn about group content or teach them how to perform basic functions associated with a healer, tank, or DPS role. You can complete normal Craglorn trials, Cloudrest, Sunspire and others with 11 people who have never done any trials at all as long at you have a patient and experienced raid leader. The trick is finding 11 people who are willing to listen and learn.
Another thing that has changed is players' expectations of how easy endgame content should be.
You can clear vCR+x, vMoL, vSS, or many other trials in this game with no one above 60k dps. What do you think people did when it was current? When I hear now that people are like "you need 100k+ parses to do vSS" or whatever I just shake my head and get sad. And then those players complain about how the game is ruined by u35, whatever. The reality is -- at least to me-- they're not mad about some supposed DPS loss, they're mad because they want to be able to cheese every mechanic on every single encounter in every trial by simply out-DPS'ing things.
I never said end game was the only game. If I did I certainly didn't mean to.
If anything I believe I described end game as something you should only do if you want to...
Otherwise... yeah. To all of that.
I played in a trading guild and helped a lot of people get started on veteran difficulty stuff. All of my DPS requirements were goals. If they could send me a parse and listen to some things to change or work on, they were in if it was close enough.
I asked for 30k for craglorn trials, a bit higher for their hardmodes, and 60k for veteran DLC trials. We do just fine. Ironically I found aetherian archives a lot easier with a group who actually would listen when I said to kill the conjured reflections instead of figuring they'd push the boss to zero asap before the conjured reflections could kill everyone.
The things I'd have to tell players about were mentioned literally no where in game either.
Stamina regen being zero while blocking for tanks, for example.
For old healers talking about how new AOE HoTs work and that you can't spam them.
Putting weapon or spell damage enchants on your jewelry. Often having to clarify enchants and not traits.
Heck I had to mention things that were covered in tutorials.
Everyone has an interrupt and it's not your fault for not knowing! The game told you about it when you were level 1 and now 50 levels and 300 CP later it is important for the first time!
Blehheugh.1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[b]Other[/b] (explain below)You need to quit thinking that ESO is all about the endgame. It is not. If your goal in ESO is only to reach the "endgame" (what is that anyway? Vet trials? Vet HM? Trifecta? Score push?) then that's fine -- play your way. But there are many, many other players who don't give a hoot about trials or vet DLC dungeon achievements. It's not why they log in, and it's not what defines their reasons for playing this game.
I can only speak for myself here but as a former hardcore WoW raider one reason I gravitated more to ESO was that getting anything done in WoW was starting to feel more like a job. 3 hour raids, 3 nights a week, on multiple toons, in raids with 7 to 12 bosses or more, and then the next raid comes out and all that Heroic and Mythic gear you worked for is now junk and you get to start over again.
I watched as WoW devs ignored literally every other aspect of the game except for the endgame, making levelling, questing, pvp, dungeons and more completely irrelevant and afterthoughts. The entire game became built around raiding and (later) Mythic+ Keystone dungeons, even the last bastion of PvP (ranked arena play) finally withered and dried up due to complete neglect.
The very, very last thing I want in ESO is for the devs to decide that the endgame is the only game that matters. I want ESO's main focus to continue to be on the stories, the questlines and the play experience.
I don't think this game needs more accessibility. What it needs is more training systems in-game to teach players how group content in ESO works, and get them over that fear of failure/of looking "bad" that seems to keep them out.
In other words, the true "bar to accessibility" is not the difficulty of the content, it's players' own fear of trying that content, and ZOS's inability to build any kind of system into ESO that helps players learn about group content or teach them how to perform basic functions associated with a healer, tank, or DPS role. You can complete normal Craglorn trials, Cloudrest, Sunspire and others with 11 people who have never done any trials at all as long at you have a patient and experienced raid leader. The trick is finding 11 people who are willing to listen and learn.
Another thing that has changed is players' expectations of how easy endgame content should be.
You can clear vCR+x, vMoL, vSS, or many other trials in this game with no one above 60k dps. What do you think people did when it was current? When I hear now that people are like "you need 100k+ parses to do vSS" or whatever I just shake my head and get sad. And then those players complain about how the game is ruined by u35, whatever. The reality is -- at least to me-- they're not mad about some supposed DPS loss, they're mad because they want to be able to cheese every mechanic on every single encounter in every trial by simply out-DPS'ing things.
I mean I'm about to start a vcr-vcr+3 prog. My requirements are 70k DPS and I'm posting mech vids that I expect raiders to familiarize themselves with. I'm encouraging people to work on dps as we progress but that's about it. Thing is when you do that you are going to be progging. It's going to be a multi hr endeavor because now you have way more portal or way more storm atros. For vss lots of pugs get taken down because they get overwhelmed by the adds. When you are pugging most folks are looking for gear so they don't want that. They want a guaranteed clear which I understand. Mist guilds though will let you start progging somewhere in the 70k range like I am.
Also it bears pointing out that when you change the content this significantly it means everyone has to alter their build which sets folks back because they now have to get used to sets they have never run before and a new rotation so now they may have things like sustain issues that they never had before causing dps to drop even lower. It's not just about the dps nerf off the top but how much additional you will lose and have to work back up to because of these changes. Hence prog groups being set back.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 2, 2022 2:23PM0 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[b]Yes, as a veteran[/b] I feel more accessibility [b]is[/b] importantSPR_of_HA_community wrote: »What is a reason in MMO to go some where if you do not get good reward ?
We don't go to Cyrodiil for good rewards, we go because it's fun.2 -
kurbbie_s✭✭✭[b]No, as a veteran[/b] I feel more accessibility [b]isn't[/b] importantWell. This has been a valuable lesson for me in where BBC code does and doesn't work. If a mod wants to edit my attempt at using it that'd be awesome. If not... ah well.
I guess I'll start.
No, as a veteran I do not think more accessibility is important. At least not with how the devs are using it now.
The game already has accessibility out of the wazoo, is why. The entire overworld was designed specifically with accessibility in mind. Every dungeon, arena, and trial has a normal variant which was also designed specifically with accessibility in mind. This also makes all of the sets* accessible for all of the players in the game too, provided they've bought the trial/dlc.
New veteran dungeons are also being limited in how hard they are. DLC dungeons are much harder than non DLC because of the time gap, but really the new DLC dungeons aren't really harder or not than the ones from a year ago.
If players want more challenge, then they have the option to foray into veteran difficulty, or if they want more, hardmodes and secret bosses. For something to be challenging, players will need to struggle beating it. If everyone could do it then it wouldn't be a challenge- which is why they should want to do it in the first place. If they don't want a challenge that's fine; every piece of content in this game has an accessible version for players.
In the same sense I don't see why players would be upset that they would need to be challenged to make and master a better DPS/Heals/Tonkiness set up if the whole reason they want to do veteran is for more challenge.
Back to that little asterisk. Monster helms are not available unless you can beat the veteran version of a dungeon. There's also perfected versions. Stats wise they're not too important, but not every player knows that or necessarily believes that.
The monster helms can be important, but I don't really think the perfected sets are. Between drastically changing the challenge of how you play and how encounters play out and just letting players have them, though... I'd rather we just let players have them.
The same goes for skins/mounts/titles, to a lesser degree.
They're really just meant to be a nod to players who rise up to the challenge and to show off their experience, so I don't think novices *need* them, but if it prevents U36 from being like U35 that's what I'd prefer.
what i highlighted is the problem, the players refuse a challenge, refuse to get better. They dont want to be challenged, they want to come in feeling like a god, get paid like a millionaire, and win. Those are the majority of players in ESO and games as a whole right now. The entitlement that they think you should be able to complete all content even if you dont have the gear/skill required to complete it has gone unchecked for far too long. Trifectas and titles like "The Merciless" shouldnt be abundant because they are just that, Acheivements. If everyone has it, its meaningless.
To me the devs are slowly pushing all the vet players away, pvp players first, to reel in new players monthly. They dont need us dedicated players that have been here for years paying a sub. They need brand new players who will buy the DLC play a month, come back and buy more stuff.0 -
kurbbie_s✭✭✭[b]No, as a veteran[/b] I feel more accessibility [b]isn't[/b] importantKingsindarkness wrote: »
Respectfully
That is the prevailing thought in MMO's over the past Fifteen years, but it isn't a truth, it's an opinion, everyone has them...these days there are a lot of different types of players, not just Raiders and those who make their materials, and those new type of players leave a ton of money on the ground, and marketing shows that end game vets usually spend the least and actually play the least.
It's just not sustainable, Zenimax may stay strong and keep the old ways, but another developer is just going to come along and pick up that dough and those customers they will happily give full access because statements like "Wanting things handed to them" dosen't really mean anything to a corporation or a customer anymore ...folks want to have fun and being gated by some dude they never even met is silly.
Fifteen years ago a game like ESO would have made hardcore gamers lose their minds...today it's average. In five more years I doubt you will see gated content in any game. Things change, and life to short to get upset about things you can't control; at least that's what I believe.
it is the truth, look at past forum threads of people upset about fake tanks in normal. People mad about being pked in a pvp area. Its all laid out to show you that a majority of the players dont want to be challenge. But handed everything on a silver platter. You dont even have to do mechanics in normal dungeons, literally.1 -
SPR_of_HA_community✭✭✭✭[b]Other[/b] (explain below)
Most of us in endgame use Crownstore mounts, rather than the ones we get from Trifectas, because the crown store mounts are so much better and more exciting. We may run around on the trifecta mount for a week or so after we get our first clear in there, but after that, it goes back in the unused bin. The rewards for completing the hardest content this game has to offer are pretty underwhelming overall, outside of personal pride and team excitement, which goes a long way.
This game offers literally no way to get a decent mount or skin outside of trifectas, the expensive collectors editions of DLCs, or the Crown Store, and the CS mounts are far and away above the trifecta mounts in every way. In-game, you get a basic horse after reaching lvl 10, and then you can purchase from a selection of other basic horses at the stables. Once in a blue moon, they'll toss a mount into the monthly rewards, but it's super, SUPER rare. Other games offer mounts, character skins, weapon effect skins, and armour styles of varying degrees as rewards throughout your entire course of gameplay, getting flashier and more exciting as you level and advance.
edit: They do occasionally offer skins or polymorphs through quests or ingame achievements, but I still maintain the best skins come from the two options I mentioned.
The last really good skin was may be from MOL, not bad one is in Hoff. It is not possible to get some thing cool in new dunguans. The same for trials.
I use crown mount myself. It looks really better.
Why do you go there ? )))Edited by SPR_of_HA_community on September 2, 2022 2:58PM1 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭[b]Yes, as a veteran[/b] I feel more accessibility [b]is[/b] importantIt is crucial for game's lifespan. More people that can access more difficult content, longer those people might stay playing the game for various reasons. I also want to access some trial contents without having to be in a dedicated hardcore PvE guilds because I simply cannot meet the requirements due to time.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel3 -
rexagamemnon✭✭✭✭✭
✭[b]Other[/b] (explain below)Been playing ESO since 2015, i never made it to s-tier pvp/pve ability in the 7 years ive been playing. I never thought more “accessibility was necessary” because the game was already accessible, it always has been.1 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[b]No, as a veteran[/b] I feel more accessibility [b]isn't[/b] importantSPR_of_HA_community wrote: »
In MMO people go some where if it is some good reward there. Epic gear, cool fashion, cool mount and etc.
What will be a reason for a group of people to farm a lot of times and wipe for a lot of times somewhere on HM/trifecta if they get nothing from it ?
While rewards are an important motivator as well as showing off one's end game achievements cosmetically, (and rather lackluster overall in ESO compared to the Crown Store) most end game players I play with like the challenge, we like progression, and the feeling of beating a tough boss for the first time, and we like our fellow end game players as most are genuinely good people. Basically we just like to raid.
I think ZoS can and should revamp the rewards system in ESO, and can even address difficulty spikes in recent veteran content. Of note the end game difficulty spike isn't an ESO centric issue, we had the same issue in SWTOR Operations (our trials there) where the Operations released over the past few years were exponentially more difficult that the older Operations.0 -
katanagirl1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »
When ZoS spoke about accessibility regarding U35 it wasn't about disabled players at all, it was about getting more players into veteran content ie making veteran content "accessible" to players over all and things like Oakensoul were supposed to aid them in this endeavor and I think Oakensoul even with its recent nerfs did a decent job here. I think we all agree that U35 actually did the opposite of ZoS' accessibility goal but it's important to understand how ZoS sees the term "accessibility" and how it was driving their decision making process instead of how the players interpreted the term accessibility based on current cultural uses. Agreed upon meanings are vital to good communication.
Regarding accessibility being important, I think players should have to work to accomplish goals in game, there are few greater feelings in gaming than when you finally clear a raid you've been progging and you get that shiny new title, skin, or mount. That doesn't mean content is vRGHM difficult but overly nerfing content will be just as detrimental to the game as creating content around the 0.001% of scorepushers - a happy medium regarding design philosophy is required.
Maybe that is the intent that ZOS had instead, but under “Accessibility” options on my console there are things like subtitles for the hearing impaired and the ability to change aoe color for colorblind people. That is the usual sense of the word. I don’t watch streams from the ZOS team and such, so maybe I missed that. They should choose another word then to avoid confusion.
I personally don’t think Oakensoul should be for people who just don’t want to barswap, it should be for those who can’t. Those who can should barswap or accept that they get less dps if they don’t. The ring helps those who have disabilities to enjoy content you and I take for granted, like overland and normal group dungeons.
Khajiit Stamblade main
Dark Elf Magsorc
Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
Orc Stamplar PVP
Breton Magsorc PVP
Dark Elf Magden
Khajiit Stamblade
Khajiit Stamina Arcanist
PS5 NA0 -
Ittrix✭✭✭[b]No, as a veteran[/b] I feel more accessibility [b]isn't[/b] importantkatanagirl1 wrote: »
Maybe that is the intent that ZOS had instead, but under “Accessibility” options on my console there are things like subtitles for the hearing impaired and the ability to change aoe color for colorblind people. That is the usual sense of the word. I don’t watch streams from the ZOS team and such, so maybe I missed that. They should choose another word then to avoid confusion.
I personally don’t think Oakensoul should be for people who just don’t want to barswap, it should be for those who can’t. Those who can should barswap or accept that they get less dps if they don’t. The ring helps those who have disabilities to enjoy content you and I take for granted, like overland and normal group dungeons.
It's quite the hostile takeover, isn't it? There's a few other words that are losing their original meaning too. Roguelikes, for example.
It is the word ZoS uses though. It's confusing, but it's probably least confusing to use the same language as them. Don't shoot the messenger (please ;~;). Where you see the word used a lot more is in dark souls esque games. In those areas accessibility typically refers to making less experienced players have an easier time beating bosses (AKA: Easy Mode). A lot of other games follow suit with the lingo.
Aanywho... I can understand the desire to help the disabled get the fullest out of any game they buy, but... it's just not plausible to make an item that would let a disabled person be just as good as other players without either taking something away about what it means to be good or letting abled people do the same with less effort.
I'm fine with oakensoul existing as a bit of a gap bridger, but there are limits. It hasn't ever crossed those, but there's a bit of a trend going on lately.
Sometimes groups of people just have to take the hit. It's rough. I'm personally just as affected and frustrated by that thought. It is what it is.Edited by Ittrix on September 3, 2022 6:24AM0 -
Serenez✭✭✭I didn't vote but am leaving my feedback.
The term 'accessibility' has many meanings, however it has been widely acknowledged by the general public and companies to mean Disability Accessibility, so when it is used in other contexts it tends to lose meaning and causes confusion for consumers. True Disability Accessibility has Legal 'Acts' in certain Countries so using the word accessibility from any Company without ensuring it meets these expectations of consumers will create some 'issues'.
For Disability Accessibility, I believe it should be 'adding options/features' that players can 'opt in', rather than taking something away from existing content. So example adding visual/audio accessibility options in the game menu that don't affect the integrity of the game itself in it's original conception, but 'adding features/options' that don't impact everyone but are there for those that wish to use them for more accessibility. This is an example of accessibility. Adding difficulty levels where people can 'choose' what level of content to do .. that is accessibility.
Using the word accessibility more broadly and changing entire content for 'everyone', tends to send the wrong message and opens the door to pit the community against one another. This should not be happening. Both can exist harmoniously, but accessibility should not mean taking away from one group to give to another. Example adding a ramp and elevator to physical locations does not mean taking stairs away from those that can or wish to use them. It is about giving an 'option' for those that wish or need to use the ramp or elevator.
I am all for allowing 'everyone' to participate in all content, however 'how' this is done matters. You cannot take away from one group to give to another and expect harmony to exist. History tends to repeat itself so using the same system of taking away from one to give to another (PVE - PVP) just one example, doesn't bode well and never will.3 -
rpa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭[b]Other[/b] (explain below)As a casual veteran, in my opinion making the game playable for people with disabilities is important but the most challenging content is not what everyone needs to be able to finish.0