Being mag without a staff.

colossalvoids

Jensmom wrote: »

There is NO build (that I have seen anyway) using just staves.

Eh, there's ton of people running just staves alone and do fine, especially when doing normal content, can just fist through everything as no one would care less. If you personally can't make it work doesn't mean it's "not viable ", not optimal - absolutely. I don't run "endgame" anymore and pretty much fine doing my HMS and fresh dungeon trifectas with two staves as don't need to optimise that much anymore and pretty sure 99% of community don't need either for content they're doing.

Exaggerated comments like "no one!" don't make devs change their mistakes, testing do and concrete evidences of their changes affecting concrete players (inability to clear content they were able to previously for example).

Castagere

My magic Temp does dual weld because he's a Dark Elf and they have a passive bonus for it. To me staffs in this game suck so I just use the class skills with dual weld.

Somber97866

Haha well I do love the challenge of endgame content and I cannot compete with the dual wield and 2 hander setup with staves so it sucks and it burns my @$$ up that they get paid as much as they do and could not forsee this happening.

Somber97866

Tell me I'm wrong

Didgerion

Staff is simply an inferior weapon right now.

First of all the base weapon damage is lower, it is 1300 vs 2H's 1500.

Second of all staff passives are too niche, for example flame staff only buff single target damage while shock staff buffs only aoe damage. There is no option to buff up both damage types at the same time like 2H does.

And the last one the ranged light attacks were badly nerfed and does no damage in PVP.

Ranged weapons are only good to consistently charge your ultimate when there is no enemy in the melee range.

Turtle_Bot

Didgerion wrote: »

Staff is simply an inferior weapon right now.

First of all the base weapon damage is lower, it is 1300 vs 2H's 1500.

Second of all staff passives are too niche, for example flame staff only buff single target damage while shock staff buffs only aoe damage. There is no option to buff up both damage types at the same time like 2H does.

And the last one the ranged light attacks were badly nerfed and does no damage in PVP.

Ranged weapons are only good to consistently charge your ultimate when there is no enemy in the melee range.

I had noticed this as well, 2h damage being buffed to base 1500 is insane, especially since nirnhoned scales this to over 1800 base damage (nearly 50% more than staff base damage). The only reason its less noticeable compared to dual wield and bows, is that dual wield has the passive that buffs raw damage by 6% of offhand weapon value and bow has a +12% damage done to enemies at longer range both of which go some way to closing this damage gap. Staves have neither of these passives and it really shows, especially with how everything scales off raw damage.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Staff needs some love, no question. It was super fun grinding DW/2H 6 times on all my mag toons, LOL.

I will say this. There is NOTHING wrong with playing with a staff on both bars as a mag toon. You can still explode all the things that need exploded. I do it on my sorc and my NB pretty much all the time outside of trials.

DW is really nothing new for DK and Templar, as both are melee anyways, and yes, it adds a bit more damage to all magic classes. It probably should, as it forces your hand on going melee range, which should be rewarded. I first ran DW on my Magplar back during like the 1 patch that Moondancer was Meta. That was a LONG time ago.

2H backbar is the latest addition to this party, but its been going on for some time now. The reality is that stampede ends up being slightly more single target than wall of elements, and both accomplished the same goal, keeping up your back bar enchant. So on a dummy or a stack and burn fight, it is ahead of a backbar staff.

For me personally, I have 3 levels for my magic toons.

1. Easy: Most content, I just run double staff as its easier and the DPS loss isnt all that great.
2. Intermediate: Most vet and trial bosses I will DW on front bar (pretty much always on DK and Templar), but keep my backbar as a flame staff so I have some range and the ability to restore magic if needed. Unstable Wall is also a nice spammable in a pinch and seems to be more cleave damage than Stampede.
3. Hard: If I am 100% in a parse situation with my nose on the boss. Trial Dummy or Trial Boss that pretty much just stands there, I go to DW/2H as it is more DPS. In most 4 man content, not worth the effort to switch. In pickup trial runs, not worth the effort 9/10 times. In groups where I am using different loadouts for each pull, then yes, I do it.

Everest_Lionheart

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Staff needs some love, no question. It was super fun grinding DW/2H 6 times on all my mag toons, LOL.

I will say this. There is NOTHING wrong with playing with a staff on both bars as a mag toon. You can still explode all the things that need exploded. I do it on my sorc and my NB pretty much all the time outside of trials.

DW is really nothing new for DK and Templar, as both are melee anyways, and yes, it adds a bit more damage to all magic classes. It probably should, as it forces your hand on going melee range, which should be rewarded. I first ran DW on my Magplar back during like the 1 patch that Moondancer was Meta. That was a LONG time ago.

2H backbar is the latest addition to this party, but its been going on for some time now. The reality is that stampede ends up being slightly more single target than wall of elements, and both accomplished the same goal, keeping up your back bar enchant. So on a dummy or a stack and burn fight, it is ahead of a backbar staff.

For me personally, I have 3 levels for my magic toons.

1. Easy: Most content, I just run double staff as its easier and the DPS loss isnt all that great.
2. Intermediate: Most vet and trial bosses I will DW on front bar (pretty much always on DK and Templar), but keep my backbar as a flame staff so I have some range and the ability to restore magic if needed. Unstable Wall is also a nice spammable in a pinch and seems to be more cleave damage than Stampede.
3. Hard: If I am 100% in a parse situation with my nose on the boss. Trial Dummy or Trial Boss that pretty much just stands there, I go to DW/2H as it is more DPS. In most 4 man content, not worth the effort to switch. In pickup trial runs, not worth the effort 9/10 times. In groups where I am using different loadouts for each pull, then yes, I do it.

I’ve been experimenting with master staff on the backbar. Extra 20 second dot plus 4 second burst with its additional 600 weapon and spell damage after casting, great for when you can line it up with other procs like on NB with incap and bow proc together or DK when you have an empowered whip.

I have also experimented with it on warden where it can really line up well with 2 shalks and a bear ulti if you time it well. Side note stam warden as well since it’s a staff you can also backbar winters revenge for some extra damage, throw on Bahsei body pieces and easily manage your max mag for a huge damage boost.

ecru

I came back for a week, quit, and I've come back again after the latest patch. I quit because of the ridiculous hybrid builds that didn't even use a staff, whose rotations are basically reapplying dots constantly, which is just not very interesting to me. These builds get their stupid high parses from three simultaneous proc sets and an OP mythic item (you know which), along with dots. I main a magcro, so it felt pretty stupid using detonating siphon, skeletal archer, relequen, medium armor, etc. I've now come back again and basically nothing has changed. I'm trying to put together a front/back bar destro staff build for my magcro, but the DPS is abysmal. If I want to be competitive, I have to drop at least one staff, but in reality, I should probably drop both.

I've examined many of these builds and I've come to the conclusion that the reason these builds are so good isn't necessarily the mythic item itself, but the way the mythic item forces you to build. With Maelstrom weapons apparently nerfed into the ground, it's a very bad idea to have a static 5 piece bonus, and stat scaling seems to have gotten worse (the CP changes caused this, I'm guessing?), so the best way to build is to use sets which do not rely on permanently active or passive five piece buffs. What sets are those? Proc sets of course. 20k+ of these parses is purely from set procs. The best proc sets are stamina sets, so forget using that destro staff. The only direct damage is light attack and blastbones. Cool.

Why are passive procs driving the meta? Is there seriously no way to make magicka and stamina builds viable again? Any sort of build identity is gone, everything is a weird mix of everything, and it's not enjoyable to play. My magcro used be able to use magicka abilities and be quite viable. That just isn't a possibility anymore. It sucks.

Everest_Lionheart

ecru wrote: »

I came back for a week, quit, and I've come back again after the latest patch. I quit because of the ridiculous hybrid builds that didn't even use a staff, whose rotations are basically reapplying dots constantly, which is just not very interesting to me. These builds get their stupid high parses from three simultaneous proc sets and an OP mythic item (you know which), along with dots. I main a magcro, so it felt pretty stupid using detonating siphon, skeletal archer, relequen, medium armor, etc. I've now come back again and basically nothing has changed. I'm trying to put together a front/back bar destro staff build for my magcro, but the DPS is abysmal. If I want to be competitive, I have to drop at least one staff, but in reality, I should probably drop both.

I've examined many of these builds and I've come to the conclusion that the reason these builds are so good isn't necessarily the mythic item itself, but the way the mythic item forces you to build. With Maelstrom weapons apparently nerfed into the ground, it's a very bad idea to have a static 5 piece bonus, and stat scaling seems to have gotten worse (the CP changes caused this, I'm guessing?), so the best way to build is to use sets which do not rely on permanently active or passive five piece buffs. What sets are those? Proc sets of course. 20k+ of these parses is purely from set procs. The best proc sets are stamina sets, so forget using that destro staff. The only direct damage is light attack and blastbones. Cool.

Why are passive procs driving the meta? Is there seriously no way to make magicka and stamina builds viable again? Any sort of build identity is gone, everything is a weird mix of everything, and it's not enjoyable to play. My magcro used be able to use magicka abilities and be quite viable. That just isn't a possibility anymore. It sucks.

Don’t get caught up in the parse numbers and skill/gear setups that you are seeing everywhere. It’s basically just a mini game. Most players are switching to whorl body and dropping Rele for content and dropping greatsword for a backbar staff in content as well. Tzogvin is the most used front bar set for content so people can drop barbed trap and slot another skill. The new dot timers are too long for most boss fights in the game and the damage has been nerfed so hard on those plus light attacks also got nerfed so now the best way to push damage on the dummy is procs. In content that flips to time on target and landing you’re spamable where you have to be a bit more bursty in your approach.

All of those things run contrary to the reason for making these changes which was to make content more accessible by raising the floor while also lowering the ceiling. All it did was make juggling timers that much more complicated and place more emphasis into time on target with single target skills. Neither of which benefits the players that need better accessibility. It changed little for the top end because we are used to doing these things, but it made shifting the gear and skills around on your characters a must to play this mini game and also content. In other words it directly correlates the the new armory system where it’s easy to shift spec and gear in an instant. Peel back all the layers of the onion and you will see it for what it is.

ShadowKyuubi

Build how you want...a lot of things are viable if you understand how things interact. For example...a Heavy Attack Sorc on PTS...94k is definitely viable:

Somber97866

These are great comments and are why I come to the forums! While I do agree with the comments the only thing is they could take a look at two handed staffs passives and maybe adjust them. I'm on the fence about the last passive being penetration. Since we get most penetration from tanks in our group but it does help when you are doing solo gameplay. Although you can always just go put on the lover Mundus and be good to go.

LittlePinkDot

Your light attacks can't hit from range with a melee weapon.

Somber97866

Never getting fixed, lol

Pelanora

Vanthras79 wrote: »

I would love to have a one-handed skill tree that does not involve a shield. Furthermore, a one-handed skill tree that would allow for spell casting would be quite cool.

Somber97866

Hahahah nice! Look I agree with like certain builds and certain situations where dual wield is actually perfect in some builds. Take the magplar for instance. But the problem I have is on the front bar ( or back bar) there should be a staff and not a two-handed sword. That is what I rock because I consider myself a mad person. And I still pull over 100k DPS. So that's how I'm keeping it. But really it's killing me that in meta it's no staff. Unless you're a magWarden and then it's double ice staffs. Why didn't they test all this before they put it live. And if this is what comes out of having the test server then the people that are testing it and giving their feedback are lying to zos. And with their lies they're screwing around with the game. And personally I think if they ever caught doing that they should be banned and never allowed to play this game again for being just downright crappy.

Somber97866

Now I will say that I am totally down for a one-handed dagger or sword or something and the other hand like a rune or just a one-handed open magic ability. I have wanted that since the beginning of the game. And I think that would just totally blow people's minds and it would be awesome. But we have never gotten that. But I am totally against being called a magic character and having a two-handed sword and dual wield with over five pieces of medium armor. That is like to me the definition of a Stam build

Pelanora

Weird it's not in the game when it's shown in the videos advertising new chapters.

Trundik

staff passives have limited use in compare with dual wield passives - those boosts all your damage. Only niche where staff still can do something imo is aoe, so lightning one probably is playable for something like necromancer. Besides heavy attack builds use lightning. But bow is worst weapon here. Its passives are carbage.

Pelanora

Trundik wrote: »

carbage.

A truly horrible cross between garbage and cabbage. The worst of things.

MindOfTheSwarm

Soarora wrote: »

I’m not sure about PvP (though I feel trying to stay in melee range of another player is probably a pain) but for PvE that’s not entirely true. The meta is daggers frontbar and 2h, staff, or bow backbar (not sure if it’s been figured out which is best yet but looks like it’s going to be 2h like you mentioned). That is just the meta though, you can do whatever you want. Even in endgame you really can’t all use daggers/2h because some content requires or is easier with range. You can still do a lot of damage with staves, it’s still a very valid option.

Correct. Anything is viable endgame. Even a Resto Staff can be ok with the right set up.

Brrrofski

Castagere wrote: »

My magic Temp does dual weld because he's a Dark Elf and they have a passive bonus for it. To me staffs in this game suck so I just use the class skills with dual weld.

By the way, that passive only increase how quick dual wield ranks up, nothing to do with damage.

Somber97866

So if they would just change the way med and light armor passives work it would t be do bad. I think the bonuses and stuff are fine just the damage output that give. Like one is crit damage buff and weapon/spell damage multiplier. The other is crit and penetration. What if it was just weapon/ spell damage multiplier and crit for both. All the other stuff would stay the way it is now but they both buff damage the same way. This would solve a lot of problems and probably solve the biggest problem with mag and Stam. That way your still getting a damage bonus for being close up ( that's for using melee weapons bc of the better weapon passives)

Somber97866

Wow I need to slow down and double check my gammer! Jeesh