AoE taunt for tanks

BlueRaven

No! #NOCHANGE!!

Personally, I dislike the idea of any ability having a taunt. I wish as a tank, just having a sword and shield improved the aggro of my attacks leaving me to slot any damaging ability I wanted.

This way I can build a character they way I want. I hate having to slot a destruction staff (A destruction staff? Really???) to tank.

(Ok just an aside to rant. Destruction staves for tanks just sounds stupid to even think about. All of these armored warriors with swords and shields suddenly pulling out staves. I know this is a fantasy game, but doesn’t that just sound nonsensical? I mean wouldn’t a bow be a more appropriate weapon for a ranged taunt for an armored warrior? Are they all secret mages?Anyway, rant over…)

Also I kind of like the frenetic sense of trying to gather all the mobs together. I think an aoe taunt would just be another “requirement” for tanking that ultimately makes tanking more boring.

Psiion

Greetings,

We have gone ahead and moved this thread to the Combat and Character Mechanics section as it is better suited there for discussion.

Klingenlied

No! I hate bias polls for I am biased.

Just because I feel here is a lot of people that know nothing about tanking.
If you had a form of taunt that did taunt multiple enemies or just taunted some stuff it cleaved, we would instantly remove one unintended design element: untargetable enemies due to clipping.

Anyway here did coral aerie hm? Or even better, unbuffed hardmode? It is some real fun when ye want to target a human type enemy while his silhouette is hidden by a gryphon. AE taunt not needed? Yea, I agree on that. But on the other hand: what would it change? We'd have more tanks likely? Shorter queues? More chill tank gameplay?

I just can not see any downsides. Saying "it is not ESO" is just as weird for me as people making biased polls - polls I NEVER take seriously because obviously the OP did not take the issue seriously in my book.

Anyway, a ae taunt or a cleave move with taunt effect would be a nice addition.

deleted221205-002626

No! #NOCHANGE!!

Soarora wrote: »

sinnereso wrote: »

haelgaan wrote: »

Tormentor set is a ball of fun on my templar. Love that set, it's great for tanking pugs and random normals.

It would be nice to have it as a skill option - just having it gives the tank the agency to use it or not, and those tanks that don't want to use it don't have to.

Doesnt tormentor only taunt the initial target? It doesnt taunt aoe

Tormentor can taunt AoE if you use a gap closer that has an AoE attached to it. Templar, werewolf, and 2h all have skills that allow you to AoE taunt using Tormentor.

I havent tested it myself recently but it has been tested in the past and an aoe gap closer still only actually taunts the target only.. rest just come cuz you were tasty lookin.. look for the red *** on theyre head and you'll see only one is actually taunted.

deleted221205-002626

No! #NOCHANGE!!

Klingenlied wrote: »

AE taunt not needed? Yea, I agree on that. But on the other hand: what would it change? We'd have more tanks likely? Shorter queues? More chill tank gameplay?

You'd have more carries of people that cant handle the adds is what youd have

FrancisCrawford

BlueRaven wrote: »

Personally, I dislike the idea of any ability having a taunt. I wish as a tank, just having a sword and shield improved the aggro of my attacks leaving me to slot any damaging ability I wanted.

This way I can build a character they way I want. I hate having to slot a destruction staff (A destruction staff? Really???) to tank.

(Ok just an aside to rant. Destruction staves for tanks just sounds stupid to even think about. All of these armored warriors with swords and shields suddenly pulling out staves. I know this is a fantasy game, but doesn’t that just sound nonsensical? I mean wouldn’t a bow be a more appropriate weapon for a ranged taunt for an armored warrior? Are they all secret mages?Anyway, rant over…)

Also I kind of like the frenetic sense of trying to gather all the mobs together. I think an aoe taunt would just be another “requirement” for tanking that ultimately makes tanking more boring.

In the movies, Gandalf blocked with a staff, but used a sword for DPS.

FrancisCrawford

1. Lotus Fan would work as well with Tormentor as the AoE-damage charge skills, correct? Of course, there still are any nightblade tanks ...

2. Do I understand correctly that add-ons seem to show Tormentor enabling AoE taunting, but in-game visual cues seem to show the opposite?

3. What is the in-game visual cue for a taunt anyway?

haelgaan

Yes! Love the idea!

whether the torm set procs an AOE taunt or a single target taunt depends on the skill used to proc the set. I mentioned using it on a Templar, where I use the skill Explosive Charge -- a charge with AOE damage...

Explosive Charge
Charge with your divine lance to impale all enemies in the area, dealing 1799 Magic Damage. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 3 seconds.
So it's an interrupt, off balance, stun, and (with Torm) a taunt. All AOE. Juicy

...but if you use a skill that doesn't directly do AOE damage, then yeah, it's a single target taunt.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

1. Lotus Fan would work as well with Tormentor as the AoE-damage charge skills, correct?

Not sure about that. The skill description reads like it is a teleport that does direct damage to a single target, and then does a subsequent AOE. if that's true, then i would expect it is only a single target taunt, as the teleport itself only hit one target.

2. Do I understand correctly that add-ons seem to show Tormentor enabling AoE taunting, but in-game visual cues seem to show the opposite?

No. Add-ons and in-game queues both show Tormentor taunt effects. Whether the taunt is AOE or not depends on the skill used.

3. What is the in-game visual cue for a taunt anyway?

Red steam/swirly lines over the taunted mob's head. Grab a sword and board, and go poke someone with Pierce Armor, then look over their head...

BlueRaven

No! #NOCHANGE!!

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Personally, I dislike the idea of any ability having a taunt. I wish as a tank, just having a sword and shield improved the aggro of my attacks leaving me to slot any damaging ability I wanted.

This way I can build a character they way I want. I hate having to slot a destruction staff (A destruction staff? Really???) to tank.

(Ok just an aside to rant. Destruction staves for tanks just sounds stupid to even think about. All of these armored warriors with swords and shields suddenly pulling out staves. I know this is a fantasy game, but doesn’t that just sound nonsensical? I mean wouldn’t a bow be a more appropriate weapon for a ranged taunt for an armored warrior? Are they all secret mages?Anyway, rant over…)

Also I kind of like the frenetic sense of trying to gather all the mobs together. I think an aoe taunt would just be another “requirement” for tanking that ultimately makes tanking more boring.

In the movies, Gandalf blocked with a staff, but used a sword for DPS.

I don’t remember Gandalf wearing heavy armor or using a shield. And he definitely was NOT the “tank” of the group.

Now if you want to make the case of introducing a spellsword class or combat tree…

Troodon80

sinnereso wrote: »

I havent tested it myself recently but it has been tested in the past and an aoe gap closer still only actually taunts the target only.. rest just come cuz you were tasty lookin.. look for the red *** on theyre head and you'll see only one is actually taunted.

Negative. You can use Untaunted (addon) or check Combat Metrics (addon) for the Taunt debuff being applied. I've already demonstrated that on the previous page. It cannot simply be a charge ability, it must be a charge ability which deals AoE damage at its destination.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

1. Lotus Fan would work as well with Tormentor as the AoE-damage charge skills, correct? Of course, there still are any nightblade tanks ...

2. Do I understand correctly that add-ons seem to show Tormentor enabling AoE taunting, but in-game visual cues seem to show the opposite?

3. What is the in-game visual cue for a taunt anyway?

• Lotus fan unfortunately does not appear to work as the AoE damage is applied after the teleport as DoT damage not direct damage.
• Visual cues also show them getting taunted as well.
• The visual cue is a red glow/haze around their head:
  

Further on those last two points, I've put a very short video together to demonstrate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-xBK_jKPOU

haelgaan

Yes! Love the idea!

BlueRaven wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Personally, I dislike the idea of any ability having a taunt. I wish as a tank, just having a sword and shield improved the aggro of my attacks leaving me to slot any damaging ability I wanted.

This way I can build a character they way I want. I hate having to slot a destruction staff (A destruction staff? Really???) to tank.

(Ok just an aside to rant. Destruction staves for tanks just sounds stupid to even think about. All of these armored warriors with swords and shields suddenly pulling out staves. I know this is a fantasy game, but doesn’t that just sound nonsensical? I mean wouldn’t a bow be a more appropriate weapon for a ranged taunt for an armored warrior? Are they all secret mages?Anyway, rant over…)

Also I kind of like the frenetic sense of trying to gather all the mobs together. I think an aoe taunt would just be another “requirement” for tanking that ultimately makes tanking more boring.

In the movies, Gandalf blocked with a staff, but used a sword for DPS.

I don’t remember Gandalf wearing heavy armor or using a shield. And he definitely was NOT the “tank” of the group.

Now if you want to make the case of introducing a spellsword class or combat tree…

Maybe he was light armor tanking for a lark, with an ice staff back bar...

thorwyn

No! #NOCHANGE!!

I don’t remember Gandalf wearing heavy armor or using a shield. And he definitely was NOT the “tank” of the group.

He was a fake tank skipping the queue while everybody else was on a quest. They should have /votekick him after the first trash group.

fred4

To the people who argue against an AOE taunt, I say: bah humbug. I'm not sure a skill for that is needed, but I love the Tormentor set (with Stampede). Having this on a gap closer means you get ahead of overeager DDs in PUGs and you grab the aggro back from them. It's also a way of rounding up melee adds through gap closing and movement. Tanks are usually expected to pull those together, are they not? I find it rather joyful to do that with Tormentor and no less effective than, say, the Vateshran 1H+S. Chains have a place, e.g. for ranged adds. Tormentor can be quicker for everything else. It's also just a really nice back barrable set for reaching the resistance cap.

You probably haven't played with that set much, if you think it's not useful, or not fun. There is the fight with the big atros in DSR. Gap closing as more of them spawn keeps all of them nicely together. You avoid targeting issues in fights like these. The Daedroths in Banished Cells 2 are another example.

As for the tank not having the stam sustain to deal with the entire mob of a dungeon or trial being aggroed to it, that's simply not true. It may be true for vet trials, I don't know (as I don't do them). In those cases the conventional meta sets have their place for the group damage anyway. Sets like Yolna, Turning Tide, and Nazaray. For content below that level, even vet Craglorn trials, pretty much anything goes. Block cost is not an issue on the builds I play. Forget heavy armor. Try some Sturdy medium - that's got the cost reduction - or a mixture. Triune jewelry, prismatic gear, and Frothgar covers your magicka requirements. Run some block cost reduction glyphs, as needed. On a DK, forget magicka cost reduction (if that's what you're using). Cinder Storm is cheap enough as it is. On other classes, think outside the box. You can heavy attack for stamina, but you can also use Introspection, Dark Deal, Bull Netch, Restoring Focus, and so on. You will be charged stamina for blocking at most every 1/4 second. The recommended block cost (by the tank club) is 750. You can go lower. It's not usually needed, but it can certainly make your life easy when you're starting out.

It really depends what your objective is. Will other people get used to being carried by the tank? Maybe. However if you run PUGs, like me, they're usually not there to learn, but just to do the content. For everything up to mid-level veteran dungeons, I don't run a conventional tank at all. I run a Tormentor / Brawler stamsorc with about 45% crit damage. It's basically a solo build that carries the group. To the best of my recollection that build worked fine in nCR+0 too. Not demanding, sure, but that's the point. There is rather a lot of that mid-level (by role-playing quester standards) content out there.

BronzeCaiman

Yes! Love the idea!

Klingenlied wrote: »

Just because I feel here is a lot of people that know nothing about tanking.
If you had a form of taunt that did taunt multiple enemies or just taunted some stuff it cleaved, we would instantly remove one unintended design element: untargetable enemies due to clipping.

Anyway here did coral aerie hm? Or even better, unbuffed hardmode? It is some real fun when ye want to target a human type enemy while his silhouette is hidden by a gryphon. AE taunt not needed? Yea, I agree on that. But on the other hand: what would it change? We'd have more tanks likely? Shorter queues? More chill tank gameplay?

I just can not see any downsides. Saying "it is not ESO" is just as weird for me as people making biased polls - polls I NEVER take seriously because obviously the OP did not take the issue seriously in my book.

Anyway, a ae taunt or a cleave move with taunt effect would be a nice addition.

I agree with this. The main reason I see an AoE taunt being useful is because of the clipping issue. I think it could be fixed with other methods, like maybe making the unused morph of puncture taunt 2 additional targets around your intended one. There are no actual downsides to an AoE taunt except in .1% of the game where a change of gear sets would have the same effect.

This game is not only trials, it not only about trials, some of us don´t even like trials. Unbelievable I know.

Dr_Con

thorwyn wrote: »

I don’t remember Gandalf wearing heavy armor or using a shield. And he definitely was NOT the “tank” of the group.

He was a fake tank skipping the queue while everybody else was on a quest. They should have /votekick him after the first trash group.

he did get votekicked after they faced the dungeon boss and died but he requeued and got back in since there was no one else wanting to tank that content

NerfSeige

No! #NOCHANGE!!

Maybe be a better tank and learn proper positioning/LoS when gathering mobs.

mpicklesster

No! #NOCHANGE!!

I voted No because adding an AoE taunt would require some serious rebalancing to the more difficult trash pulls in the game, and I don't trust the devs to do that.

There are some encounters where, if you taunted everything within your radius, you'd get melted. ZOS would have to surgically rebalance those encounters to work with a new, AoE taunt. Given their sledgehammer approach to U35, I don't trust them to be surgical about something like this.

dmnqwk

BlueRaven wrote: »

Personally, I dislike the idea of any ability having a taunt. I wish as a tank, just having a sword and shield improved the aggro of my attacks leaving me to slot any damaging ability I wanted.

This way I can build a character they way I want. I hate having to slot a destruction staff (A destruction staff? Really???) to tank.

(Ok just an aside to rant. Destruction staves for tanks just sounds stupid to even think about. All of these armored warriors with swords and shields suddenly pulling out staves. I know this is a fantasy game, but doesn’t that just sound nonsensical? I mean wouldn’t a bow be a more appropriate weapon for a ranged taunt for an armored warrior? Are they all secret mages?Anyway, rant over…)

Also I kind of like the frenetic sense of trying to gather all the mobs together. I think an aoe taunt would just be another “requirement” for tanking that ultimately makes tanking more boring.

Nonsensical is someone believing the stick is not a defensive weapon.
Acrobats use it for balance, a key component of anybody defending themselves. On top of this I've used a piece of wood to tank in WoW, Swtor and DDO for decades because it's more fun than a boring person in heavy metal armor trying not to die to fire damage... yeah, imagine wearing metal armor to fight a fire-breathing dragon... talk about nonsensical!

No game ever lets you 'build how you want' because I can't think of a single MMO that lets me attack enemies with cupcakes, while wearing a nice emerald green satin ballgown. Games are only games with rules, otherwise they're simply playing.

AvalonRanger

No! #NOCHANGE!!

AoE doesn't have consciousness. it works like the smoke grenade.
Because it's mostly fire or poison area. If smoke has consciousness like the kind of ghost creature...
well... maybe people can taunt it. But It's extremely unnatural idea, almost stupid.

By the way...

Some DPS maniac tester extremely love combat dummy experiment.
I saw many of those capture movie in youtube site...but.

Your 100K damage build is almost zero amount damage in the actual combat situation.
I think glass canon is dying combat style, especially in DLC PVE contents.
If you can't do nimble action game maneuver, you'll be killed by just few of AoE in blink an eye.
Consider self protecting little bit more. It's not tank's fault, not healer's fault also.

etchedpixels

Tormentor is very useful in some scenarios and also for Werewolf tanking. I mostly run it when taking newbie groups through dungeons as I can pull all the crap off people fast when they panic.

A lot of the harder content though an AoE taunt will get the tank turned into a damp spot very fast because controlling who taunts what, where and when is important.

FrancisCrawford

Dr_Con wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

I don’t remember Gandalf wearing heavy armor or using a shield. And he definitely was NOT the “tank” of the group.

He was a fake tank skipping the queue while everybody else was on a quest. They should have /votekick him after the first trash group.

he did get votekicked after they faced the dungeon boss and died but he requeued and got back in since there was no one else wanting to tank that content

Actually, he died and got stuck somewhere they couldn't rez him. So they moved on and he later portaled to them.

Quethrosar

sometimes i hate tanks taunting and using chains to pull mobs.
i laid down my trap and wall where the mob was damnit.