Do we need a big Rework for class and gameplay ?

Nathyiel

Between lag, Stam/Magicka balance, no-magicka healer, class Identity, ..., there's so much problem actually. I don't think a few change over a few update will be able to address them. So I hope something bigger is work under the hood for the next chapter.

And I will add one big problem : there's no gameplay change at all in years. We get new classes, new skill. And a few skill get a few change. The gameplay is still the same.

But back the main problems.

Lags
Part of the reason behind lag problem in combat is the number of "event". The game need to tract Buff/debuff, DoT, Light/heavy attack, skill, ..., every few millisecond. I don't know the value but 250ms shouldn't be that far. Compared to other mmo, ESO have to specificity : lot of DoT/HoT effect and Anim Cancel as a core gameplay. Considering all of this, I'm amazed at how stable and responsive server are.

Dev are actually nerfing DoT/HoT to limit their use. But it's difficult to limit the use of DoT/HoT when more than half the skill use them. Most of the skill if secondary effect is accounted. So actual change are only bandaid, short term solution.
To be effective : a lot of skill need to be changed to effectively remove DoT/HoT and give player better option.

Anim Cancel is another part of the problem. ESO is the only mmo that I know to allow Animation Cancellation to such extend, to the point it's part of the core gameplay. It even have a name.
Sorry for all the Weaving fan but it will have to go at some point. Animation length is another way to help bandwidth problem.


Magicka/Stamina balance.
Hybridization is the culprit. On paper, it work fine. It work well for some class. It wouldn't be a problem in PvE But in PvP, player will always go for the Most Effective Tactic Available. IN competitive game (like LoL, Fornite, Valorant, ...), there's regular change to keep the game interesting by changing the META. I would love to be like this in ESO but there's bigger problem to resolve before.

So in short, the hybridization push the META build outside of Magicka use because of some design problem : delayed burst, cast time, Magicka regeneration, range, close gap, etc. Hybridization give some benefice of Stamina to Magicka user, so Magicka get nerf to not be dominant. Added with skill design problem and system change (like DoT/HoT), some class are going off-meta like Magsorc and Magden.
And there's actual discussion to see it's worth using an heal staff at all. Something related on how heal are scaling ...


Class Identity.
It's what I could call the contrary of the Meta. It design what the player want to play and be at least effective with it. It's the main point of ESO design.
Interestingly, the class that have identity crisis are the same with magicka problem : MagSorc and MagDen.

For MagSorc, the class identity is well defined but skill design heavily impact it.

• The passive damage increase Physical and Shock damage. That good but near of it's ability are doing Magic damage, not shock.
• The pets. Sorcerer is a summoning class but even now that they have a better AI, they are barely useful.
• Design choice are strange. For example, why Daedric Curse isn't in Dark Magic ? Why Blood magic scale of Max Health and why did it proc of skill that are cast every few second at best ?

For MagDen, it's kind of the same problem. It's a mix between class design choice, gameplay/balancing choice and player expectation.
Warden have 3 distinct skills with specific role: DPS, heal and tank.But it only work fine in PvE. But it's much more polarized than other class.

• Player look at all the Cryomancers NPC : "cool, I will try to make one". Bad news, Frost staff = tanking. It's not even a viable option because taunt everything and have bad damage.
• I won't speak of the skill used by NPC, shown in the Morrowind cinematic and player don't use.
• There's strange passive too like. The buff to Magical and Frost damage is good but what about the stamina user ? Scorch is ok in PvE when mobs are tanked. But in PvP against other player, the delayed damage is just bad. Just make it direct damage with a short cooldown ...
• et cetera

My opinion
A rework of the gameplay is needed.

• The change to DoT, HoT and Light/Heavy Attack won't be effective as long most of our skill are DoT/HoT.
• Removing the weaving mechanism will be the most effective change against lag. With Light/Heavy attack becoming the new spam skill, it leave room for things like reactive ability, cooldowns, proc, stack, etc. Slowing the pace will make some actual passive and ability much more interesting.
• The result of Hybridization is an aggravation of existing skill design choice.
• Class Identity problem are just design choice but show up because of the other problem.

Even without the Weaving change that might be too big, gameplay change are more than welcome. Changing some Dot to hard hitting ability with condition/proc/cooldown would be very appreciated. And a global pass on all skills (class, weapon guild, etc) would be important to change those strange passive.

The community can help. There's a lot of good idea.
Each weak, make a specific discussion for a class or skill line where Dev explain what would be a good evolution for them.

Astin_nds

Nathyiel wrote: »

Between lag, Stam/Magicka balance, no-magicka healer, class Identity, ..., there's so much problem actually. I don't think a few change over a few update will be able to address them. So I hope something bigger is work under the hood for the next chapter.

And I will add one big problem : there's no gameplay change at all in years. We get new classes, new skill. And a few skill get a few change. The gameplay is still the same.

But back the main problems.

Lags
Part of the reason behind lag problem in combat is the number of "event". The game need to tract Buff/debuff, DoT, Light/heavy attack, skill, ..., every few millisecond. I don't know the value but 250ms shouldn't be that far. Compared to other mmo, ESO have to specificity : lot of DoT/HoT effect and Anim Cancel as a core gameplay. Considering all of this, I'm amazed at how stable and responsive server are.

Dev are actually nerfing DoT/HoT to limit their use. But it's difficult to limit the use of DoT/HoT when more than half the skill use them. Most of the skill if secondary effect is accounted. So actual change are only bandaid, short term solution.
To be effective : a lot of skill need to be changed to effectively remove DoT/HoT and give player better option.

Anim Cancel is another part of the problem. ESO is the only mmo that I know to allow Animation Cancellation to such extend, to the point it's part of the core gameplay. It even have a name.
Sorry for all the Weaving fan but it will have to go at some point. Animation length is another way to help bandwidth problem.


Magicka/Stamina balance.
Hybridization is the culprit. On paper, it work fine. It work well for some class. It wouldn't be a problem in PvE But in PvP, player will always go for the Most Effective Tactic Available. IN competitive game (like LoL, Fornite, Valorant, ...), there's regular change to keep the game interesting by changing the META. I would love to be like this in ESO but there's bigger problem to resolve before.

So in short, the hybridization push the META build outside of Magicka use because of some design problem : delayed burst, cast time, Magicka regeneration, range, close gap, etc. Hybridization give some benefice of Stamina to Magicka user, so Magicka get nerf to not be dominant. Added with skill design problem and system change (like DoT/HoT), some class are going off-meta like Magsorc and Magden.
And there's actual discussion to see it's worth using an heal staff at all. Something related on how heal are scaling ...


Class Identity.
It's what I could call the contrary of the Meta. It design what the player want to play and be at least effective with it. It's the main point of ESO design.
Interestingly, the class that have identity crisis are the same with magicka problem : MagSorc and MagDen.

For MagSorc, the class identity is well defined but skill design heavily impact it.

• The passive damage increase Physical and Shock damage. That good but near of it's ability are doing Magic damage, not shock.
• The pets. Sorcerer is a summoning class but even now that they have a better AI, they are barely useful.
• Design choice are strange. For example, why Daedric Curse isn't in Dark Magic ? Why Blood magic scale of Max Health and why did it proc of skill that are cast every few second at best ?

For MagDen, it's kind of the same problem. It's a mix between class design choice, gameplay/balancing choice and player expectation.
Warden have 3 distinct skills with specific role: DPS, heal and tank.But it only work fine in PvE. But it's much more polarized than other class.

• Player look at all the Cryomancers NPC : "cool, I will try to make one". Bad news, Frost staff = tanking. It's not even a viable option because taunt everything and have bad damage.
• I won't speak of the skill used by NPC, shown in the Morrowind cinematic and player don't use.
• There's strange passive too like. The buff to Magical and Frost damage is good but what about the stamina user ? Scorch is ok in PvE when mobs are tanked. But in PvP against other player, the delayed damage is just bad. Just make it direct damage with a short cooldown ...
• et cetera

My opinion
A rework of the gameplay is needed.

• The change to DoT, HoT and Light/Heavy Attack won't be effective as long most of our skill are DoT/HoT.
• Removing the weaving mechanism will be the most effective change against lag. With Light/Heavy attack becoming the new spam skill, it leave room for things like reactive ability, cooldowns, proc, stack, etc. Slowing the pace will make some actual passive and ability much more interesting.
• The result of Hybridization is an aggravation of existing skill design choice.
• Class Identity problem are just design choice but show up because of the other problem.

Even without the Weaving change that might be too big, gameplay change are more than welcome. Changing some Dot to hard hitting ability with condition/proc/cooldown would be very appreciated. And a global pass on all skills (class, weapon guild, etc) would be important to change those strange passive.

The community can help. There's a lot of good idea.
Each weak, make a specific discussion for a class or skill line where Dev explain what would be a good evolution for them.

above all there is a big problem between the magic balance and stamina apart from his damage and his infinitely better executors now he has a healing explosion x2 times better and applies a minor resolve,..... incredibly unbalanced, I have a thread that talks about it theme,
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614506/magickas-we-have-a-big-problem-magickas-healers-too/p1

Rimskjegg

Many good points here, especially about lag. But at the end of the day, IMO the game needs less frequent, more gradual and targeted change. Not even more overhauls.

ToRelax

Nathyiel wrote: »

Anim Cancel is another part of the problem. ESO is the only mmo that I know to allow Animation Cancellation to such extend, to the point it's part of the core gameplay. It even have a name.
Sorry for all the Weaving fan but it will have to go at some point. Animation length is another way to help bandwidth problem.

You're not wrong - the longer you prevent players from using their abilities, the fewer there will be to overload the server.

francesinhalover

I think weapon skill lines should be 100% either mag or stam, no hibridization.

Tonturri

Basically, yes, it needs to happen but it never will because that would be a LOT of work and it's easier to just do worse. I criticize ZOS for having bad class design, but I can understand that basically copy-pasting skills and making 'flavor' changes/mechanics is much easier than deep, thorough class and meta design. Easier to just give sorc 1% extra shock damage.

MindOfTheSwarm

Class Identity is a smaller problem when compared with Build Identity.

Classes already have a clear identity, Sorcs are Lightning and Daedra based. Wardens are nature and Frost themed.

Builds however are lacking, this is mainly an issue down to meta but the bigger problem is that the play styles offered by the different weapons are minor in how they feel different. This is particularly true for Destro Staff as the skills are basically skin swaps.

On another note, ZoS puts a lot of emphasis on sets with new DLC. When to be honest, we have enough sets. What is needed are new skills to open the way for more build options. The selection of skills we have access to outside of Class skills is quite small compared to other MMO’s. This is why I feel strongly about splitting the Destro staves into seperate skill lines because this would remove the skin swap feel and you could tailor fit them into specific play styles.

Nathyiel

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Class Identity is a smaller problem when compared with Build Identity.

Classes already have a clear identity, Sorcs are Lightning and Daedra based. Wardens are nature and Frost themed.

Builds however are lacking, this is mainly an issue down to meta but the bigger problem is that the play styles offered by the different weapons are minor in how they feel different. This is particularly true for Destro Staff as the skills are basically skin swaps.

On another note, ZoS puts a lot of emphasis on sets with new DLC. When to be honest, we have enough sets. What is needed are new skills to open the way for more build options. The selection of skills we have access to outside of Class skills is quite small compared to other MMO’s. This is why I feel strongly about splitting the Destro staves into seperate skill lines because this would remove the skin swap feel and you could tailor fit them into specific play styles.

I mostly agree. But I think instead of new skill, they can began to work on existing one. There's no talent in Eso but build flexibility come from weapon choice and passive that work only with specific spell, etc. The problem is that we ar always using the same skill because there's no real option.

There's a lot of redundant skill and a lot of skill that have little to no use at all. I would love to see some data about skill usage in PvP, Dungeon, Cyro, etc. It should be easy to make a list of unused skill.