Empower change's effect on Support Necros

VolrathStormborn

With the new changes coming to Empower the Necro Tanks and Healers no longer bring anything unique or needed to the table for Raid Comps. Nothing more than maybe an extra Colo. The Class itself will only be used as a DPS. Please either reconsider those changes, or perhaps add an additional function to a Necro's Class skill or all of the time spent by players building those Cro Tanks/Healers are wasted until something else comes down the line.

There have been a lot of unnecessary changes, especially attacking anything and everything that enhances Light Attacks which is going to effect players at all levels but to modify Empower without giving the Necro Supports anything to bring to the table is a little far. I had just been spending a bunch of time on my Necro Tank and Healer only to see the change to Empower and have to put them on the back burner. Now I'm back to building a Warden Tank, and my Warden & Templar healers I already have will do.

That really is a big let down for sure. I was looking forward to using them, and the Necro Healer was awesome - spent hours at the Outfit Station setting it up.

VolrathStormborn

I spent many many more hours leveling the skills. Granted we still have Medium Weaving it the current Week 5 state, but that will not stick around and everyone knows it. I would not waste time perfecting it. That increased the skill gap by miles and is bound to go.

BronzeCaiman

We support necros are now the defined by Bone Totem synergy, with that AoE Minor Vulnerability.

fizl101

Come join templars with our minor sorcery

Horny_Poney

Yep, it’s dead imho.

VolrathStormborn

So obviously @ZOS_RichLambert confirmed Empower will only be for Fully Charged Heavy attacks if you are not paying attention. @ZOS_GinaBruno , any chance the Necro can get a different buff to bring to Raid Comp? Preferably something unique so they are still desired as a Healer or Tank instead of the same offering as another class?

WrathOfInnos

Yeah, Necro support seems about as useless as Templar now, bringing nothing unique to a group. Dragonknight tank + Warden healer seems like the obvious choice for 4-man content, but I wonder what will become the meta for trials.

Nightblade could be interesting now that they have access to both Major and Minor Cowardice on demand, maybe as a tank with the new Dark Cloak.

Lena_HJ

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah, Necro support seems about as useless as Templar now, bringing nothing unique to a group. Dragonknight tank + Warden healer seems like the obvious choice for 4-man content, but I wonder what will become the meta for trials.

Nightblade could be interesting now that they have access to both Major and Minor Cowardice on demand, maybe as a tank with the new Dark Cloak.

Whoa, whoa! Maybe step back into the box and forget meta for a while? Not everyone is chasing meta, most people are happy with just doing a trial cause it is a challenge, something else than writs and dailies and you can show off in the chat by linking perfected gear.

Templars are still sought after healer class when it comes to trials because of the shards and ritual. Parse dummy is providing shards synergy after all, so people are expecting it to be there. I often heal vet semi-pugs [I mean not progs] in my guilds and I noticed people are more at ease when one of healers is a templar. Personally, I find healing on a templar very boring, but if we are going for an easy clear, and folks not panicking templar is a way to go. Necro has a similar effect due to necro rezz [depending on a group I do have it on my bar sometimes], and the warden heals just has an opinion of "being a good healer class" and for most people this is good enough and they are not interested in intricacies of what actually makes it good XD
I can understand that, DDs are interested in their builds and how to squeeze the most out of their gear and they don't pay much attention to what buffs and debuffs their healers are actually providing. Healer is the one that HPSes and this is what they care about. And in no-prog it really doesn't matter. But bring a DK or NB healer.. there is panic XD People are not used to refreshing path and sudden speed boost for example [I think I may have killed some folks in dungeons by using this ability, ehh ], and they will follow your DK healer cause they have it imprinted in their heads that DK is the tank.

That all being said... yep, I do feel I should probably find a worthy successor for my precious Necro heals since when I asked my prog buddies about who is going to switch to HA build I was met with "huh?" and we started discussing me and the other healer looking into some more oldschool sets like Sanctuary, cause with all those changes incoming maybe we will have to focus more on "just raw healing". We'll see.

Treeshka

There is still Saxhleel and Colossus combo, but yes main reason about Necromancer Healer is Empower buff. I assume high end raiding teams will not utilize heavy attacks as their primary damage source so those groups does not require Empower buff in their kit.

WrathOfInnos

Lena_HJ wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah, Necro support seems about as useless as Templar now, bringing nothing unique to a group. Dragonknight tank + Warden healer seems like the obvious choice for 4-man content, but I wonder what will become the meta for trials.

Nightblade could be interesting now that they have access to both Major and Minor Cowardice on demand, maybe as a tank with the new Dark Cloak.

Whoa, whoa! Maybe step back into the box and forget meta for a while? Not everyone is chasing meta, most people are happy with just doing a trial cause it is a challenge, something else than writs and dailies and you can show off in the chat by linking perfected gear.

Templars are still sought after healer class when it comes to trials because of the shards and ritual. Parse dummy is providing shards synergy after all, so people are expecting it to be there. I often heal vet semi-pugs [I mean not progs] in my guilds and I noticed people are more at ease when one of healers is a templar. Personally, I find healing on a templar very boring, but if we are going for an easy clear, and folks not panicking templar is a way to go. Necro has a similar effect due to necro rezz [depending on a group I do have it on my bar sometimes], and the warden heals just has an opinion of "being a good healer class" and for most people this is good enough and they are not interested in intricacies of what actually makes it good XD
I can understand that, DDs are interested in their builds and how to squeeze the most out of their gear and they don't pay much attention to what buffs and debuffs their healers are actually providing. Healer is the one that HPSes and this is what they care about. And in no-prog it really doesn't matter. But bring a DK or NB healer.. there is panic XD People are not used to refreshing path and sudden speed boost for example [I think I may have killed some folks in dungeons by using this ability, ehh ], and they will follow your DK healer cause they have it imprinted in their heads that DK is the tank.

That all being said... yep, I do feel I should probably find a worthy successor for my precious Necro heals since when I asked my prog buddies about who is going to switch to HA build I was met with "huh?" and we started discussing me and the other healer looking into some more oldschool sets like Sanctuary, cause with all those changes incoming maybe we will have to focus more on "just raw healing". We'll see.

Necro rez is a fair point. I don't see it used much, but that is a powerful tool for progression through any difficult content. I still think they need something unique that can be useful for groups when nobody is dying. Empower fit that role perfectly, since DPS could not easily use it (unlike colossus) it often justified a Necro healer or off-tank.

Templar healer continues to disappoint me. Ritual and Breath of Life are so weak compared to a few years ago. PotL lost its unique debuff (Minor Breach added to Pierce Armor). Shards lost its unique synergy (shared with Orb). Nova lost its unique mitigation (now just 10% Major Maim, which is available in spammable form with Frost Clench). Minor Sorcery became redundant with Minor Brutality + Igneous Weapons with hybridization. They simply have nothing to stand out.

Warden is still in a great spot for heals. They are the only class that can give the group Minor Toughness and Major Resolve (and warden DPS cannot easily cover this duty). They also have easy access to Minor recovery buffs (along with Sorc and Nightblade), provide a unique synergy with Harvest, can easily contribute to Minor Brittle uptimes.

I realize most players don't care about this level of detail, but it still bugs me when some classes end up so watered down you can't even identify their flavor.

VolrathStormborn

Bringing additional light to this concern. Please find some utility for Cro Supports again, or adjust Empower back the way it was. Attach it to any skill you want, but kindly add something unique to bring to the whole group that is not already covered by another class. Empower was that option which will no longer be of use in 90% of groups.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin Sorry for my ignorance on which person to ping on this.

Galiferno

Necro support is now more accessible don't worry about it

EldritchSun

Empower thing is a sad change, but I'm worried more about how the new major vulnerability easy sets outperformed the colossus ultimate.

WrathOfInnos

EldritchSun wrote: »

Empower thing is a sad change, but I'm worried more about how the new major vulnerability easy sets outperformed the colossus ultimate.

I wouldn't worry about that. Using a support set to replace a class skill is never going to give better results. That is why Galenwe never caught on and a Necro healer was desirable for Empower. And a Templar with PotL was always preferred over Sunderflame or Dragons Defilement (until Pierce Armor replaced all of these). Nobody uses Infallible Aether now that Warden's Fetcher gives Minor Vuln.

Using Turning Tide on a tank instead of bringing a Necromancer means giving up another support set, maybe Yolnahkriin or Crimson. I don't see this being a threat to having Necros in group. However I do think that having a few Necro DPS and no Necro support is looking like a good option when the patch releases.

dmnqwk

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

EldritchSun wrote: »

Empower thing is a sad change, but I'm worried more about how the new major vulnerability easy sets outperformed the colossus ultimate.

I wouldn't worry about that. Using a support set to replace a class skill is never going to give better results. That is why Galenwe never caught on and a Necro healer was desirable for Empower. And a Templar with PotL was always preferred over Sunderflame or Dragons Defilement (until Pierce Armor replaced all of these).

Using Turning Tide on a tank instead of bringing a Necromancer means giving up another support set, maybe Yolnahkriin or Crimson. I don't see this being a threat to having Necros in group. However I do think that having a few Necro DPS and no Necro support is looking like a good option when the patch releases.

Turning Tide backbar only means you get to control when it goes off, pairing it with Nazaray monster set as you horn to extend it.

Since it has a far superior uptime to a single Necro ult, it's definitely going to give better results.

EldritchSun

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

EldritchSun wrote: »

Empower thing is a sad change, but I'm worried more about how the new major vulnerability easy sets outperformed the colossus ultimate.

I wouldn't worry about that. Using a support set to replace a class skill is never going to give better results. That is why Galenwe never caught on and a Necro healer was desirable for Empower. And a Templar with PotL was always preferred over Sunderflame or Dragons Defilement (until Pierce Armor replaced all of these). Nobody uses Infallible Aether now that Warden's Fetcher gives Minor Vuln.

Using Turning Tide on a tank instead of bringing a Necromancer means giving up another support set, maybe Yolnahkriin or Crimson. I don't see this being a threat to having Necros in group. However I do think that having a few Necro DPS and no Necro support is looking like a good option when the patch releases.

Major vulnerability is one of the strongest buffs in the game worth keeping up. It basically makes content clearing 10% faster, which is way superior than minor courage and penetration buff. Archdruid and Turning tide setup allows 100% uptime with little effort, the colossus ult grants only 12 seconds and only when the ultimate is ready.

WrathOfInnos

EldritchSun wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

EldritchSun wrote: »

Empower thing is a sad change, but I'm worried more about how the new major vulnerability easy sets outperformed the colossus ultimate.

I wouldn't worry about that. Using a support set to replace a class skill is never going to give better results. That is why Galenwe never caught on and a Necro healer was desirable for Empower. And a Templar with PotL was always preferred over Sunderflame or Dragons Defilement (until Pierce Armor replaced all of these). Nobody uses Infallible Aether now that Warden's Fetcher gives Minor Vuln.

Using Turning Tide on a tank instead of bringing a Necromancer means giving up another support set, maybe Yolnahkriin or Crimson. I don't see this being a threat to having Necros in group. However I do think that having a few Necro DPS and no Necro support is looking like a good option when the patch releases.

Major vulnerability is one of the strongest buffs in the game worth keeping up. It basically makes content clearing 10% faster, which is way superior than minor courage and penetration buff. Archdruid and Turning tide setup allows 100% uptime with little effort, the colossus ult grants only 12 seconds and only when the ultimate is ready.

I have to disagree on this one. 100% uptime on Major Vuln only reaches 10% damage increase if there are no other additive damage taken debuffs (Minor Vuln, Martial Knowledge, Engulfing Flames, Encratis). In reality it's closer to 9% while active and Turning Tide only gives maximum 66% uptime for a 6% group DPS gain. Archdruid is significantly lower with only 46% uptime max.

Crimson Oath alone is a 7% to 9% DPS increase for anyone not reaching the penetration cap (medium armor users) and can easily reach 100% uptime with a 3 grace period.

I'm not saying that Crimson should be used to replace Major Vulnerability. You can have both and get all of the advantages just by having a few Necromancers in group rotating Colossus ultimates. All they give up is Shooting Star, which is not much better than Colossus for solo damage anyway. Necro also happens to be one of the best DPS classes, so leaving them out and filling multiple support sets with Colossus substitutes simply is not worth it. It's a nice option for groups where nobody is willing to play Necro, but it is objectively weaker overall.

Necrotech_Master

dmnqwk wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

EldritchSun wrote: »

Empower thing is a sad change, but I'm worried more about how the new major vulnerability easy sets outperformed the colossus ultimate.

I wouldn't worry about that. Using a support set to replace a class skill is never going to give better results. That is why Galenwe never caught on and a Necro healer was desirable for Empower. And a Templar with PotL was always preferred over Sunderflame or Dragons Defilement (until Pierce Armor replaced all of these).

Using Turning Tide on a tank instead of bringing a Necromancer means giving up another support set, maybe Yolnahkriin or Crimson. I don't see this being a threat to having Necros in group. However I do think that having a few Necro DPS and no Necro support is looking like a good option when the patch releases.

Turning Tide backbar only means you get to control when it goes off, pairing it with Nazaray monster set as you horn to extend it.

Since it has a far superior uptime to a single Necro ult, it's definitely going to give better results.

i have at least 1 friend that uses those 2 sets in combo and works out pretty well

EldritchSun

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I have to disagree on this one. 100% uptime on Major Vuln only reaches 10% damage increase if there are no other additive damage taken debuffs (Minor Vuln, Martial Knowledge, Engulfing Flames, Encratis). In reality it's closer to 9% while active and Turning Tide only gives maximum 66% uptime for a 6% group DPS gain. Archdruid is significantly lower with only 46% uptime max.

Crimson Oath alone is a 7% to 9% DPS increase for anyone not reaching the penetration cap (medium armor users) and can easily reach 100% uptime with a 3 grace period.

I'm not saying that Crimson should be used to replace Major Vulnerability. You can have both and get all of the advantages just by having a few Necromancers in group rotating Colossus ultimates. All they give up is Shooting Star, which is not much better than Colossus for solo damage anyway. Necro also happens to be one of the best DPS classes, so leaving them out and filling multiple support sets with Colossus substitutes simply is not worth it. It's a nice option for groups where nobody is willing to play Necro, but it is objectively weaker overall.

Maybe you're right, but I still have feeling Archdruid+TT is gonna be the new meta. Anyway, ppl who stay will see.

UPD: Also, don't forget TT and Nazaray quickly has become the new meta, even on necros.

WrathOfInnos

EldritchSun wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I have to disagree on this one. 100% uptime on Major Vuln only reaches 10% damage increase if there are no other additive damage taken debuffs (Minor Vuln, Martial Knowledge, Engulfing Flames, Encratis). In reality it's closer to 9% while active and Turning Tide only gives maximum 66% uptime for a 6% group DPS gain. Archdruid is significantly lower with only 46% uptime max.

Crimson Oath alone is a 7% to 9% DPS increase for anyone not reaching the penetration cap (medium armor users) and can easily reach 100% uptime with a 3 grace period.

I'm not saying that Crimson should be used to replace Major Vulnerability. You can have both and get all of the advantages just by having a few Necromancers in group rotating Colossus ultimates. All they give up is Shooting Star, which is not much better than Colossus for solo damage anyway. Necro also happens to be one of the best DPS classes, so leaving them out and filling multiple support sets with Colossus substitutes simply is not worth it. It's a nice option for groups where nobody is willing to play Necro, but it is objectively weaker overall.

Maybe you're right, but I still have feeling Archdruid+TT is gonna be the new meta. Anyway, ppl who stay will see.

UPD: Also, don't forget TT and Nazaray quickly has become the new meta, even on necros.

Yeah that is a fair point. I suspect that TT + Naz on a Necro tank is not the true meta for pushing damage/time/score, but handling Major Vuln solo without needing to coordinate with 2-3 teammates just makes things so much easier. Most DPS players wouldn't complain about this because they all get to run damage ults and ignore the colossus rotation, even if it means the boss dies a few seconds slower.

I'm sure some players will choose to do solo Maj Vuln for the same reason, and can now do it on a DK tank with those 2 sets. I don't think it will be the best plan for optimizing, but it is certainly a fun idea especially for pug runs without coordinated classes and ult rotations.