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Why does PvE need to be nerfed?
MECHA_STREISAND
✭✭✭
*Tone of this post disclaimer: confusion / sadness, not to be mistaken for anger / ranting*
What I don't understand at all is why nerfing for PvE is even necessary. If power creep at the top is a thing then just make newer content harder so there's some skill progression that feels rewarding. That's exactly what this game does already. When I was Lv50 for the first time did I expect to clear DLC vet HM dungeons? No, I started with nFG and worked my way up.
The thing I love about this game is that there is a really clear* skill progression through the endgame content that encourages you to improve. That's how all good games work and what makes them rewarding to play. The newer content doesn't just add ridiculous amounts of health to the bosses, it adds really fun and interesting mechanics that at the higher end are very difficult to master. That's exactly how this should work. That's what makes this game so much fun.
(* Actually not that clear, because the dungeons are not listed in order of difficulty. I had to use Reddit to find out which ones to do first.)
There will always be a small number of players who master content to such an extent that it's easy for them. Always, without exception. This is true for every game ever made. They will overcome every nerf and exploit-fix and still outperform the rest of the player base by miles, because they've mastered the game. What we should say is "Good for them"!
Why, then, is it necessary to make life harder for the overwhelming majority of players with nerfs and / or massive balance changes? I keep saying "overwhelming majority" because it literally is - I think we have one Godslayer in our guild, who joined only recently, and they are chill af. The rest of the "elite" players (as we like to call them apparently) in our guild are really really good, but even so it takes us weeks of struggling to get clears as we work through the hardest content - that's with DPS at it's highest.
High DPS is not the issue with harder content.
People get so mad about nerfs for a very good reason - 99.9% of us already find the end-end-endgame content difficult enough! But also, it just feels terrible to put so much work into your build, rotation, and practising content, to have your damage output reduced. We take a step forward and two steps back, and that is never satisfying.
To summarise:
Endgame PvE content is hard enough for the majority of players. It doesn't need to be made harder, or easier, we just need to learn to get through it.
=============
What would make things more fun for newer players? Make it easier for lower level players to do more damage. How do you do that? By giving them a damage modifier.
That's it. That's the fix. We already do it, it just needs tweaking. Don't even touch the top end. If you want to reduce the skill gap, start at the bottom, not the top.
If people want to clear vet HM trials by spamming one skill and not weaving, well.. that's not how this game works. That's not how any game works.
You have to improve to progress through content. Lower-skill players need to become higher-skill players. That might sound toxic and elitist but it's just how any game that rewards improvement (i.e. is satisfying to play and not boring) works. How do people get more good more quickly? With [practise and] help from other players with more experience. What do you have to do to ensure that's a possibility for them? Encourage more experienced players to stick around.
That last point is exactly why these massive balance changes and nerfs are such a problem. I'm not saying everyone is going to stop playing the game, but people are going to be A - pissed off, and B - confused. I actually forget which patch it was last year, but I remember there was a period of months after one of the big combat change patches where no new builds were being posted online - probably because the people who do that sort of thing had to do so much experimenting to figure out what works. That's months where lower-skilled players were trying to figure out how to improve but getting very little advice. We had people in our guild asking what they should do with their builds and we had very limited ways of helping them, because we barely knew ourselves.
It took the entire patch cycle to get to grips with the changes, and then we had another major balance upheaval. Thankfully not as drastic, but still.. it makes it really difficult to have experts on hand to help other players improve when the goalposts are constantly shifting like this.
If you discourage and confuse the more experienced members of your player base to the point where they can't or won't help members that need it, then your skill gap issues are only going to get worse.
To summarise:
We need time and stability so that people can master combat, and help others master it too.
The right way to close a skill gap is by improving the skill of players.
The right way to close a power gap is to boost the bottom, not restrict the top.
=============
So let's say hypothetically that the devs stop messing around with balance changes.. what would they do with their time?
I dunno.. maybe fix some of the bugs? The game-breaking bugs that reset bosses mid-fight, crash you to desktop, put mechanics visualisations on the ceiling instead of the floor, insta-kill you for jumping / dodge-rolling. The clunky animations that people have hated for years. The bar-swap / blocking bug that stops you being able to use skills. The things we have been complaining about for so long but never seem to be addressed. The stuff we actually ask for.
Make it more obvious to newer players which endgame content they should be starting with, and what order to progress through it.
Or, if you really have to mess with balance, how about.. work out a method of isolating PvE and PvP balancing and how to implement it effectively. Fix the stuff that becomes ridiculously OP in PvP without ruining it for PvE and vice-versa. This is the thing that has been forcing us to use the same meta sets and skills for years, and restricting people's ability to use creative builds. I understand this is complicated and will be fraught with difficulty, but.. cough.
There are tonnes of really cool sounding sets, skills, weapons etc in this game that would make for really interesting and diverse builds, but unfortunately aren't viable for PvE content because they've had their wings clipped in the name of PvP balance. Instead we have, what, less than five viable PvE endgame sets for DDs? This shouldn't be the way.
To summarise:
Developer time is better spent fixing issues that affect everyone, not a minuscule number of players.
PvE and PvP are two very different games within a game, so should be treated as such.
=============
So ZoS, if you read this, I want to emphasise that I mean this in the most constructive way: if you take anything from the outrage over this patch, it's that you need a major attitude adjustment.
You are "fixing" things that the vast majority of players don't think are broken. Your attitude towards the more experienced players comes across as hostile and punitive when patch after patch you try to restrict our ability to succeed.
The consensus amongst your players is that these changes are uncalled for and unnecessary.
You are hampering your own efforts to close the skill gap by making it impossible for us to help each other.
What I don't understand at all is why nerfing for PvE is even necessary. If power creep at the top is a thing then just make newer content harder so there's some skill progression that feels rewarding. That's exactly what this game does already. When I was Lv50 for the first time did I expect to clear DLC vet HM dungeons? No, I started with nFG and worked my way up.
The thing I love about this game is that there is a really clear* skill progression through the endgame content that encourages you to improve. That's how all good games work and what makes them rewarding to play. The newer content doesn't just add ridiculous amounts of health to the bosses, it adds really fun and interesting mechanics that at the higher end are very difficult to master. That's exactly how this should work. That's what makes this game so much fun.
(* Actually not that clear, because the dungeons are not listed in order of difficulty. I had to use Reddit to find out which ones to do first.)
There will always be a small number of players who master content to such an extent that it's easy for them. Always, without exception. This is true for every game ever made. They will overcome every nerf and exploit-fix and still outperform the rest of the player base by miles, because they've mastered the game. What we should say is "Good for them"!
Why, then, is it necessary to make life harder for the overwhelming majority of players with nerfs and / or massive balance changes? I keep saying "overwhelming majority" because it literally is - I think we have one Godslayer in our guild, who joined only recently, and they are chill af. The rest of the "elite" players (as we like to call them apparently) in our guild are really really good, but even so it takes us weeks of struggling to get clears as we work through the hardest content - that's with DPS at it's highest.
High DPS is not the issue with harder content.
People get so mad about nerfs for a very good reason - 99.9% of us already find the end-end-endgame content difficult enough! But also, it just feels terrible to put so much work into your build, rotation, and practising content, to have your damage output reduced. We take a step forward and two steps back, and that is never satisfying.
To summarise:
Endgame PvE content is hard enough for the majority of players. It doesn't need to be made harder, or easier, we just need to learn to get through it.
=============
What would make things more fun for newer players? Make it easier for lower level players to do more damage. How do you do that? By giving them a damage modifier.
That's it. That's the fix. We already do it, it just needs tweaking. Don't even touch the top end. If you want to reduce the skill gap, start at the bottom, not the top.
If people want to clear vet HM trials by spamming one skill and not weaving, well.. that's not how this game works. That's not how any game works.
You have to improve to progress through content. Lower-skill players need to become higher-skill players. That might sound toxic and elitist but it's just how any game that rewards improvement (i.e. is satisfying to play and not boring) works. How do people get more good more quickly? With [practise and] help from other players with more experience. What do you have to do to ensure that's a possibility for them? Encourage more experienced players to stick around.
That last point is exactly why these massive balance changes and nerfs are such a problem. I'm not saying everyone is going to stop playing the game, but people are going to be A - pissed off, and B - confused. I actually forget which patch it was last year, but I remember there was a period of months after one of the big combat change patches where no new builds were being posted online - probably because the people who do that sort of thing had to do so much experimenting to figure out what works. That's months where lower-skilled players were trying to figure out how to improve but getting very little advice. We had people in our guild asking what they should do with their builds and we had very limited ways of helping them, because we barely knew ourselves.
It took the entire patch cycle to get to grips with the changes, and then we had another major balance upheaval. Thankfully not as drastic, but still.. it makes it really difficult to have experts on hand to help other players improve when the goalposts are constantly shifting like this.
If you discourage and confuse the more experienced members of your player base to the point where they can't or won't help members that need it, then your skill gap issues are only going to get worse.
To summarise:
We need time and stability so that people can master combat, and help others master it too.
The right way to close a skill gap is by improving the skill of players.
The right way to close a power gap is to boost the bottom, not restrict the top.
=============
So let's say hypothetically that the devs stop messing around with balance changes.. what would they do with their time?
I dunno.. maybe fix some of the bugs? The game-breaking bugs that reset bosses mid-fight, crash you to desktop, put mechanics visualisations on the ceiling instead of the floor, insta-kill you for jumping / dodge-rolling. The clunky animations that people have hated for years. The bar-swap / blocking bug that stops you being able to use skills. The things we have been complaining about for so long but never seem to be addressed. The stuff we actually ask for.
Make it more obvious to newer players which endgame content they should be starting with, and what order to progress through it.
Or, if you really have to mess with balance, how about.. work out a method of isolating PvE and PvP balancing and how to implement it effectively. Fix the stuff that becomes ridiculously OP in PvP without ruining it for PvE and vice-versa. This is the thing that has been forcing us to use the same meta sets and skills for years, and restricting people's ability to use creative builds. I understand this is complicated and will be fraught with difficulty, but.. cough.
There are tonnes of really cool sounding sets, skills, weapons etc in this game that would make for really interesting and diverse builds, but unfortunately aren't viable for PvE content because they've had their wings clipped in the name of PvP balance. Instead we have, what, less than five viable PvE endgame sets for DDs? This shouldn't be the way.
To summarise:
Developer time is better spent fixing issues that affect everyone, not a minuscule number of players.
PvE and PvP are two very different games within a game, so should be treated as such.
=============
So ZoS, if you read this, I want to emphasise that I mean this in the most constructive way: if you take anything from the outrage over this patch, it's that you need a major attitude adjustment.
You are "fixing" things that the vast majority of players don't think are broken. Your attitude towards the more experienced players comes across as hostile and punitive when patch after patch you try to restrict our ability to succeed.
The consensus amongst your players is that these changes are uncalled for and unnecessary.
You are hampering your own efforts to close the skill gap by making it impossible for us to help each other.
46
-
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »
High DPS is not the issue with harder content.
People get so mad about nerfs for a very good reason - 99.9% of us already find the end-end-endgame content difficult enough! But also, it just feels terrible to put so much work into your build, rotation, and practising content, to have your damage output reduced. We take a step forward and two steps back, and that is never satisfying.
To summarise:
Endgame PvE content is hard enough for the majority of players. It doesn't need to be made harder, or easier, we just need to learn to get through it.
Amen! Last night I dragged three nice PUG players who hadn't run veteran Unhallowed Grave last night through the dungeon as their healer. It was a long slog and we didn't even do the HM but it was a fulfilling moment when I saw these guys complete the content. After update 35 I don't think we could have done completed the dungeon with the DPS and healing changes which tells me that update 35 will actually run counter to ZoS' stated accessibility goal and make veteran content far less accessible to the majority of player.28 -
GloatingSwine✭✭✭MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »What would make things more fun for newer players? Make it easier for lower level players to do more damage. How do you do that? By giving them a damage modifier.
They already have one.
The way to make things fun for players coming from solo and starter normal content into later DLC and veteran content is to actually tell them how the game works, and make sure it works in a way that's easy to pick up.
That means:- Teach people what a rotation is and why it matters in game using a dungeon tutorial.
- Teach people about the support roles of tank and healer and why they matter in game using a dungeon tutorial.
- Design skills with cooldowns which regularly synchronise so that it is easy to build a memorable rotation (including damage effects and debuff effects).
- Make buffs from sets easier to sustain*
- Make a genuine full-charge-heavy based build that benefits from a different approach than LAW and is competitive with it via itemisation support, whilst leaving LAW as a viable path.
* So for example take Kinras, it's a set basically built around LAW, don't change that but make a stack last 6 seconds instead of 5 so you have a little bit of grace period to get to 5. Same with other LAW sets, build them around less-than-perfect weaving.11 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of trial bosses complained that power creep was making it too hard for them to kill players while they were dying like chumps.
Also, the snow was starting to settle down in the Meta Snowglobe. That means it's time to shake things up and make a whole new landscape for players to play around in.
Also also, ZOS sold a fair chunk of power creep in the High Isle chapter, but so that the train doesn't run away down the tracks, powercreep has to be nerfed back so that they can sell more powerful Mythic Items in the future. See also Thrassian's Stranglers, Ring of the Pale Order, and Harpooner's Wading Kilt, all of which were powerful PVE items, were overused in PVE, and then nerfed three-six months after launch. It's a pattern at this point.
Okay, less analogy and more seriously, it's that power creep pushes the ability of the Devs to design content for everyone. The current state of affairs where the Devs design Vet HM challenge content that can only be completed by a relatively tiny number of players is not really good, and the method ZOS has chosen is to nerf that top layer of players so they can design content that's easier to reach. Problem is, that method has never worked, and they only hit progressing players harder each time.
You also have to consider that ESO is a game of horizontal progression, and so ZOS can't afford to give players a time of peace and stability with which to progress, accomplish their goals, get bored and leave. The meta can't be allowed to get stale, because the people with the top classes are going to get good then get bored and leave, while the people who don't have top classes are going to feel bad, get bored, and leave. So that's why there are PVE shakeups every three-six months.
And no, none of this would be better if PVP and PVE were balanced separately. ZOS can't afford for the PVE meta to stagnate (example: Elsweyr had a meta with 8 necromancer DDs for a while) and for players who are left out of the meta to get bored and leave. So ZOS would continue to shake up the PVE meta just to keep things fresh, and to keep players grinding away. Yes, this induces change fatigue, but it takes a long time for change fatigued players to actually throw up their hands and say "I'm done" and in the meantime, it's a great way for ZOS to get more playtime and money out of them.
TL;DR: Periodic PVE nerfs are a feature of the way ZOS does business, not a bug. See also Morrowind, Murkmire, Scalebreaker.10 -
Everaen✭✭✭As a more casual player just starting to really venture into vet content and trying tanking and such for the first time, I also don't understand these changes from a PVE perspective.
Power creep is the incentive players like myself have to keep playing. The more newer powerful sets I slowly acquire, the more access I get to content that I once deemed too difficult for myself. At the end of the day, we all want the characters we invest time and energy into to feel powerful in the world and to grow in power over time.
This patch has really just killed my drive to try anything new or push toward any particular goal. Sorta just treading water atm until the dust settles... because why would I invest in learning medium weaving, or invest toward the new Empower ability, or into gears or skills that may drastically change a couple of months from now, if that?
There needs to be enough stability in the game for players to have a target, hit the target, and enjoy hitting the target for some time, before drastic changes upend the rules and damage output.Edited by Everaen on August 12, 2022 1:51PM21 -
gariondavey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I only really read the bolded summaries, but those seemed good!PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden3 -
BronzeCaiman✭✭✭gariondavey wrote: »I only really read the bolded summaries, but those seemed good!
Let me try.
The reason PvE (DPS) needs to be nerfed is because the game is almost entirely horizontal progression, DPS checks are not real mechanics, and the mechanics of fights and even how to fight are very poorly explained in game.4 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Have a basic help option that explains and lists buffs as well explaining what a 5 piece set bonus is.0 -
Faded✭✭✭✭✭MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »If power creep at the top is a thing then just make newer content harder.
That would be a bad use of limited dev time and resources for the tiny fraction of the playerbase that would want or play it.
They could stop dropping OP gear into the game every patch that facilitates crazy DPS numbers for that tiny fraction, but a decision has been made at some level that keeping players on the gear treadmill is the way to go. That just leaves direct nerfs to player characters.6 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭They seem to want to make eso a esport.
It will be eso battle royal
Eso card games! And eso trial team vs trial team!Edited by francesinhalover on August 13, 2022 4:28AMI am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!1 -
merpins✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just add a hell difficulty to dungeons and trials. Don't lock any new or better gear behind a hell difficulty, just an achievement or something behind completing them. Score pushers and end game players will love it.8 -
dmnqwk✭✭✭✭✭GloatingSwine wrote: »MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »What would make things more fun for newer players? Make it easier for lower level players to do more damage. How do you do that? By giving them a damage modifier.
They already have one.
The way to make things fun for players coming from solo and starter normal content into later DLC and veteran content is to actually tell them how the game works, and make sure it works in a way that's easy to pick up.
That means:- Teach people what a rotation is and why it matters in game using a dungeon tutorial.
- Teach people about the support roles of tank and healer and why they matter in game using a dungeon tutorial.
- Design skills with cooldowns which regularly synchronise so that it is easy to build a memorable rotation (including damage effects and debuff effects).
- Make buffs from sets easier to sustain*
- Make a genuine full-charge-heavy based build that benefits from a different approach than LAW and is competitive with it via itemisation support, whilst leaving LAW as a viable path.
* So for example take Kinras, it's a set basically built around LAW, don't change that but make a stack last 6 seconds instead of 5 so you have a little bit of grace period to get to 5. Same with other LAW sets, build them around less-than-perfect weaving.
Um, Kinras and other charges last 5 seconds from the last time you generate one NOT 5 seconds to get all the charges in. Adding 1 second is nothing, you just seem confused about how the charge timer refreshes.
Having said that, I do also agree there's no reason the charges can't last 10 seconds so they last from one group to the next slightly more easily (The Harpooner's Kilt went from 1 minute to 20 seconds, meaning ZOS must've thought 20 seconds was an appropriate timer for charge management; otherwise they'd have used the generic 5 of most sets?)2 -
AinSoph✭✭✭✭✭They saw that >1% of their playerbase were optimizing the hardest content in the game for minimal rewards and they said "nope" and proceeded to punish literally every player.19 -
ellmarie✭✭✭✭MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »*Tone of this post disclaimer: confusion / sadness, not to be mistaken for anger / ranting*
People get so mad about nerfs for a very good reason - 99.9% of us already find the end-end-endgame content difficult enough! But also, it just feels terrible to put so much work into your build, rotation, and practising content, to have your damage output reduced. We take a step forward and two steps back, and that is never satisfying.
To summarise:
Endgame PvE content is hard enough for the majority of players. It doesn't need to be made harder, or easier, we just need to learn to get through it.
=============
Just discussing this. Especially having done a few one bar builds with Oakensoul. I worked very hard, playing everyday for the past 2 years to get to where I am. I don't do a lot of trials or vet dungeons, more of a PvE quester. But I worked my way up through the grind. I kept changing my build to get to a certain "level", so I can keep up really. I don't want the game to be easy, but not a chore either.Xbox X- NA3 -
Enundr✭✭✭BlackArgonian wrote: »gariondavey wrote: »I only really read the bolded summaries, but those seemed good!
Let me try.
The reason PvE (DPS) needs to be nerfed is because the game is almost entirely horizontal progression, DPS checks are not real mechanics, and the mechanics of fights and even how to fight are very poorly explained in game.
that doesnt make it harder or more challenging , just annoying. a poor design is all it ends up to. if you have to nerf player damage to make a fight seem harder then your clearly doing something wrong as a dev. it doesnt add challenge or anything else , just makes a fight longer , or if the nerf is over kill makes the dps check impossible to pass by design. Nerfing isnt the answer to balance issues , granted i think their original stated purpose was to make the game more accessible for newer players or whatever with this update? either way none of this alligns up with that , much less has anything from the combat update.3 -
Enundr✭✭✭MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »*Tone of this post disclaimer: confusion / sadness, not to be mistaken for anger / ranting*
People get so mad about nerfs for a very good reason - 99.9% of us already find the end-end-endgame content difficult enough! But also, it just feels terrible to put so much work into your build, rotation, and practising content, to have your damage output reduced. We take a step forward and two steps back, and that is never satisfying.
To summarise:
Endgame PvE content is hard enough for the majority of players. It doesn't need to be made harder, or easier, we just need to learn to get through it.
=============
Just discussing this. Especially having done a few one bar builds with Oakensoul. I worked very hard, playing everyday for the past 2 years to get to where I am. I don't do a lot of trials or vet dungeons, more of a PvE quester. But I worked my way up through the grind. I kept changing my build to get to a certain "level", so I can keep up really. I don't want the game to be easy, but not a chore either.
ironically i think the purpose of the combat changes was to make the game more accessible for newer players or some other such stuff. so it sounded like their original intent was to be a little easier XD0 -
ellmarie✭✭✭✭MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »*Tone of this post disclaimer: confusion / sadness, not to be mistaken for anger / ranting*
People get so mad about nerfs for a very good reason - 99.9% of us already find the end-end-endgame content difficult enough! But also, it just feels terrible to put so much work into your build, rotation, and practising content, to have your damage output reduced. We take a step forward and two steps back, and that is never satisfying.
To summarise:
Endgame PvE content is hard enough for the majority of players. It doesn't need to be made harder, or easier, we just need to learn to get through it.
=============
Just discussing this. Especially having done a few one bar builds with Oakensoul. I worked very hard, playing everyday for the past 2 years to get to where I am. I don't do a lot of trials or vet dungeons, more of a PvE quester. But I worked my way up through the grind. I kept changing my build to get to a certain "level", so I can keep up really. I don't want the game to be easy, but not a chore either.
ironically i think the purpose of the combat changes was to make the game more accessible for newer players or some other such stuff. so it sounded like their original intent was to be a little easier XD
I know, but I worked hard on my way up, so to make it easier for beginners now, that seems a slap to all those who worked hard at it. I'm wondering about all the people that have been playing for a long long time, how they feel. I'm saying I don't want it to be a chore now, at my current level 1500, like it was in the beginning for me. That's, if, they nerf some of the things is all. Hard to relay I guess.Xbox X- NA0 -
prof_doom✭✭✭✭✭And regardless of the validity of the initial goals of the patch, the past 5 weeks have seen it turn into a nearly unreadable mish-mash of changes, rollbacks, partial rollbacks, unstated changes, and things we have to learn from watch a skinnyCheeks video as opposed to reading it in an official update.
Which in my mind is the primary reason to not put this update out.Edited by prof_doom on August 15, 2022 3:51PM12 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭A case could be made that PvE for quests, overland random mobs, delves, public dungeons and normal non-DLC 4-man dungeons is currently too easy and should have its difficulty increased a bit.
But I'm not even sure if that's the case because anyone like me who has been playing since release, who knows all about foods, mundus, gearing with easy to get overland sets, how to build a character properly to handle packs and mini bosses... in short, all the advantages of knowing the game well, is probably the worst judge of appropriate difficulty for the part of the game that new players unfamiliar with everything will experience. Ask those new players, watch them, measure them... not us.
That content should not be developed to cater to my capabilities at all. It will be very easy for me. It SHOULD be very easy for me. What it should do is provide a reasonable but not discouraging challenge to those leveling 1-50 for the first time.
Edited by Iselin on August 15, 2022 4:46PM15 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭And regardless of the validity of the initial goals of the patch, the past 5 weeks have seen it turn into a nearly unreadable mish-mash of changes, rollbacks, partial rollbacks, unstated changes, and things we have to learn from watch a skinnyCheeks video as opposed to reading it in an official update.
Which in my mind is the primary reason to not put this update out.
Yes, thrashing, the devs are thrashing. Lot's of changes quickly with not enough thought. And it's such a mish-mash now I have no idea how exactly U35 compares to live (other than U35 is worse).
PS5/NA5 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭They saw that >1% of their playerbase were optimizing the hardest content in the game for minimal rewards and they said "nope" and proceeded to punish literally every player.
You mean selling runs for 40mill gold?
I am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!4 -
Enundr✭✭✭MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »*Tone of this post disclaimer: confusion / sadness, not to be mistaken for anger / ranting*
People get so mad about nerfs for a very good reason - 99.9% of us already find the end-end-endgame content difficult enough! But also, it just feels terrible to put so much work into your build, rotation, and practising content, to have your damage output reduced. We take a step forward and two steps back, and that is never satisfying.
To summarise:
Endgame PvE content is hard enough for the majority of players. It doesn't need to be made harder, or easier, we just need to learn to get through it.
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Just discussing this. Especially having done a few one bar builds with Oakensoul. I worked very hard, playing everyday for the past 2 years to get to where I am. I don't do a lot of trials or vet dungeons, more of a PvE quester. But I worked my way up through the grind. I kept changing my build to get to a certain "level", so I can keep up really. I don't want the game to be easy, but not a chore either.
ironically i think the purpose of the combat changes was to make the game more accessible for newer players or some other such stuff. so it sounded like their original intent was to be a little easier XD
I know, but I worked hard on my way up, so to make it easier for beginners now, that seems a slap to all those who worked hard at it. I'm wondering about all the people that have been playing for a long long time, how they feel. I'm saying I don't want it to be a chore now, at my current level 1500, like it was in the beginning for me. That's, if, they nerf some of the things is all. Hard to relay I guess.
ironically this update isnt making anything easier contrary to what they said they intended to do for accessibility to newer players. its not making it challenging , its just that mobs will be slower to kill is all , among the class skill nerfs and such that are irritating players beyond belief.1 -
Enundr✭✭✭A case could be made that PvE for quests, overland random mobs, delves, public dungeons and normal non-DLC 4-man dungeons is currently too easy and should have its difficulty increased a bit.
But I'm not even sure if that's the case because anyone like me who has been playing since release, who knows all about foods, mundus, gearing with easy to get overland sets, how to build a character properly to handle packs and mini bosses... in short, all the advantages of knowing the game well, is probably the worst judge of appropriate difficulty for the part of the game that new players unfamiliar with everything will experience. Ask those new players, watch them, measure them... not us.
That content should not be developed to cater to my capabilities at all. It will be very easy for me. It SHOULD be very easy for me. What it should do is provide a reasonable but not discouraging challenge to those leveling 1-50 for the first time.
Overland content doesnt need any changes in difficulty , it would kind of alienate casual players really......and all i can say is i foresee wildstar all over again trying to make things not as casual friendly. but nerfing player damage doesnt make the difficulty harder , mechanics make fights harder and challenging. nerfing player dmg is......well......the politest way i can say it is ....lazy......players have expressed this update is a mess and for good reason , it doesnt fulfill their vision for the update of making the game more accessible or whatnot , nor does it make things challenging , it just made it literally impossible to meet dps check mechanics , thats pretty bad in design because it was an already existing mechanic and the nerfs made it impossible to meet at all.4 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭GloatingSwine wrote: »l
* So for example take Kinras, it's a set basically built around LAW, don't change that but make a stack last 6 seconds instead of 5 so you have a little bit of grace period to get to 5. Same with other LAW sets, build them around less-than-perfect weaving.
There's a lot in this thread so I probably won't make a bigger reply to the rest but this right here, is 🤌.
There are several sets that require a repeated action, like Kinras, that unnecessarily require a perfect LA weave to proc. What difference would it make if the timer was increased to 10 seconds? You'd still have to hit the LA's but if you missed one or a couple it wouldn't make the set OP.I drink and I stream things.1 -
Zastrix✭✭✭✭✭It's nerfed because people who spend time in the game have higher dps than what people who don't spend any time and that's you know not acceptable as everyone knows that the the true vision of the endgame is housing or just getting stuff from those wretched RNG lootboxes and they wanted to force people to play that way.
If you think trials are endgame those are just knee-jerk reactions and you should trust the devs because they know what they're doing as they have a clear vision. /s110-114k Stage 4 Vamprie Magblade u39
Aldmeri Dominion did nothing wrong in Shadowfen.12 -
Delgent✭✭✭PVE needed to be nerfed so that I would stop spending so much darn time and money on this game. Mission accomplished. FREEDOM!To live for good is to die in the name of honor.
SEEK AND DESTROY12 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭It is ZOS' 'kneejerk reaction' to high end players' performances. Hence, we all eat nerfs instead of getting actual fixes.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel11 -
Enundr✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »It is ZOS' 'kneejerk reaction' to high end players' performances. Hence, we all eat nerfs instead of getting actual fixes.
wonder how long itll take them that the "high end players" were probably a handful of the overall community? literally wildstar catered to this group and that game died fast (sad day for a fun game in its own rights) , the casual players felt ignored and neglected....guess whats happening here? XD while not catering to them , still treating the casual / majority poorly just like wildstar did (honestly at the rate i keep pointing this out for them i wouldnt be surprised if i got banned at this point XD). its literally a death sentence for this game.1