Why is ZOS obsessed?

terrasight

"We hear you!"

Well...there's a difference between "hear you" and "listen to you"...

Ragnarok0130

VaranisArano wrote: »

They honestly think that this update either fits into their long-term plan that's good for the game or that they can fix the worst of the Live pain points in three-six months. They don't think they're ruining ESO.

The devs of SWG didn't think they were ruining/killing their game, the Ghost in the Shell First Assault devs didn't think they were literally killing their game and both sets of changes were met by push back from players that had the same intensity as these changes elicited from our playerbase and the devs there did exactly what ZoS devs did here by digging their heels in and insulting players as being "afraid of change" and "knee jerk reactions" and then radio silence - and guess what....the players were right and both games closed. These devs need to do a little math at the number of sweeping changes they've done just since 2019. Nefas recounted it and out of the past 14 patches 12 of them were large changes with only 2 being the small incremental fine tuning that ZoS recently committed to and outright abandoned IOT do another sweeping changes that they said they wouldn't do again - no wonder we are all just burned out and willing to die on this hill and I've played since closed Beta so the number of sweeping changes I've seen is much larger. I hope the devs revert most of these changes in the next patch like they've done historically but honestly the dramatic pendulumimg of this team and their drastic balance shifts are becoming more grating than the crown store and everything being an overpriced MTX.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Also, remember that most players in the Live playerbase aren't nearly as frustrated as the players paying attention to the PTS, and thus are much more likely to keep playing in hopes of getting those fixes instead of quitting outright.

Not yet but they will be when they come back after this patch and their skills are much more ineffective than before and they have a much more difficult time just wandering about and questing. The reason they aren't frustrated right now is they don't know these changes are coming because most players are not in the forums or active community members, and for them it'll be like walking into an unexpected headshot. I foresee many more new forum accounts being created to voice their displeasure when update 35 drops.

I'm in several raiding guilds and they are ghost towns now, people don't even log in so I went from raiding almost nightly with several guilds to maybe once a week and that's before the patch drops in the next couple of weeks because end game players are done with ZoS' nonsense, lies, and disrespect to the end game community. Before update 35 PTS I was super happy at the growing numbers of raiders and active raiding guilds and now that positive trajectory has entirely reversed course. This just shows how developer hubris can negatively affect a game.

HEIIMS

Well that is quite easy question to answer. Firstly, [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] and that's it, it is what it is.

YandereGirlfriend

Marto wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

However, ZOS must recognize the problem that the 8.1.0 adjustments were too large and out of touch with the player base, including plenty of adjustments that were not requested and had no clear reason for modification. In fact, most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0. ZOS needs to explain in more detail what happened with 8.1.0, who led this part of the design, who was responsible for it, what his/her rationale was for making these changes, and whether it has changed since the end of this terrible public test, rather than being more vague. I believe this is the only way to regain player confidence. Losing player confidence is a disaster for any game.

That's exactly what the PTS is for, no?

It's for releasing adjustments that ZOS themselves know aren't perfect. But they aren't sure which way to go about them.

I doubt anyone in the combat team felt 8.1.0 was perfect. Some devs probably thought removing the scaling of LA was over-nerfing. Some devs probably thought that having 2s ticks on ground AoE was not going to make a noticeable difference. They probably had the exact same arguments we forum users had.

It's why it was released for testing. It's why they asked for feedback.

And 8.1.2 , 8.1.3, and 8.1.4 are the answer to that feedback.

ZOS' answer was :

"You're right, oakensoul was overnerfed in mid to end-game PVE. We'll follow your suggestion and add slayer and aegis to it."
"You're right, light attacks not scaling is too much of a nerf for low-tier players. We'll make them scale again, but with different calculations."
"You're right. Making everything 30s makes the combat to slow. But we think having some things be 30s does help accessibility a lot. Plus, we think having some abilities be short and some long makes the game less repetitive."
"You're right, reducing damage of LA/HA makes HA builds too weak. Here's a reworked empower to help with that. But now it only works with HA, since we think the damage of LA on 8.1.3 is on a good spot."

You're saying "most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0." as if that's a bad thing. When that is exactly how the PTS is supposed to work.

Well, if you play a Warden then all of the patches post-8.1.0 were just additional random nerfs for your class.

Wardens largely wish that the PTS would have ended in Week 1, FeelsBadMan.

chessalavakia_ESO

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

However, ZOS must recognize the problem that the 8.1.0 adjustments were too large and out of touch with the player base, including plenty of adjustments that were not requested and had no clear reason for modification. In fact, most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0. ZOS needs to explain in more detail what happened with 8.1.0, who led this part of the design, who was responsible for it, what his/her rationale was for making these changes, and whether it has changed since the end of this terrible public test, rather than being more vague. I believe this is the only way to regain player confidence. Losing player confidence is a disaster for any game.

That's exactly what the PTS is for, no?

It's for releasing adjustments that ZOS themselves know aren't perfect. But they aren't sure which way to go about them.

I doubt anyone in the combat team felt 8.1.0 was perfect. Some devs probably thought removing the scaling of LA was over-nerfing. Some devs probably thought that having 2s ticks on ground AoE was not going to make a noticeable difference. They probably had the exact same arguments we forum users had.

It's why it was released for testing. It's why they asked for feedback.

And 8.1.2 , 8.1.3, and 8.1.4 are the answer to that feedback.

ZOS' answer was :

"You're right, oakensoul was overnerfed in mid to end-game PVE. We'll follow your suggestion and add slayer and aegis to it."
"You're right, light attacks not scaling is too much of a nerf for low-tier players. We'll make them scale again, but with different calculations."
"You're right. Making everything 30s makes the combat to slow. But we think having some things be 30s does help accessibility a lot. Plus, we think having some abilities be short and some long makes the game less repetitive."
"You're right, reducing damage of LA/HA makes HA builds too weak. Here's a reworked empower to help with that. But now it only works with HA, since we think the damage of LA on 8.1.3 is on a good spot."

You're saying "most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0." as if that's a bad thing. When that is exactly how the PTS is supposed to work.

Well, if you play a Warden then all of the patches post-8.1.0 were just additional random nerfs for your class.

Wardens largely wish that the PTS would have ended in Week 1, FeelsBadMan.

They did change scorch back to 3 seconds.

YandereGirlfriend

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

However, ZOS must recognize the problem that the 8.1.0 adjustments were too large and out of touch with the player base, including plenty of adjustments that were not requested and had no clear reason for modification. In fact, most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0. ZOS needs to explain in more detail what happened with 8.1.0, who led this part of the design, who was responsible for it, what his/her rationale was for making these changes, and whether it has changed since the end of this terrible public test, rather than being more vague. I believe this is the only way to regain player confidence. Losing player confidence is a disaster for any game.

That's exactly what the PTS is for, no?

It's for releasing adjustments that ZOS themselves know aren't perfect. But they aren't sure which way to go about them.

I doubt anyone in the combat team felt 8.1.0 was perfect. Some devs probably thought removing the scaling of LA was over-nerfing. Some devs probably thought that having 2s ticks on ground AoE was not going to make a noticeable difference. They probably had the exact same arguments we forum users had.

It's why it was released for testing. It's why they asked for feedback.

And 8.1.2 , 8.1.3, and 8.1.4 are the answer to that feedback.

ZOS' answer was :

"You're right, oakensoul was overnerfed in mid to end-game PVE. We'll follow your suggestion and add slayer and aegis to it."
"You're right, light attacks not scaling is too much of a nerf for low-tier players. We'll make them scale again, but with different calculations."
"You're right. Making everything 30s makes the combat to slow. But we think having some things be 30s does help accessibility a lot. Plus, we think having some abilities be short and some long makes the game less repetitive."
"You're right, reducing damage of LA/HA makes HA builds too weak. Here's a reworked empower to help with that. But now it only works with HA, since we think the damage of LA on 8.1.3 is on a good spot."

You're saying "most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0." as if that's a bad thing. When that is exactly how the PTS is supposed to work.

Well, if you play a Warden then all of the patches post-8.1.0 were just additional random nerfs for your class.

Wardens largely wish that the PTS would have ended in Week 1, FeelsBadMan.

They did change scorch back to 3 seconds.

While subtracting an additional 14% of its damage (which stacked with the previous nerfed 8%). The trade was absolutely not worth it.

deleted221106-002999

HEIIMS wrote: »

Well that is quite easy question to answer. Firstly, [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] [snip] and that's it, it is what it is.

A cogent, eloquent, well-reasoned and thoroughly insightful analysis presented with breathtaking clarity.

Thanks.

orgin_stadia

I have but one question. What's the point in learning new rotations, weaving and whatnot if it's constantly changed every 3 months?

shadyjane62

To answer your question, there is no point. I haven't changed armor since no-proc. Figured it would just come round again.

Necrotech_Master

shadyjane62 wrote: »

To answer your question, there is no point. I haven't changed armor since no-proc. Figured it would just come round again.

when they added the no proc to all of cyro, i both: played cyro less, and didnt change my gear off of proc gear because i knew it wasnt going to stick lol

YandereGirlfriend

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

To answer your question, there is no point. I haven't changed armor since no-proc. Figured it would just come round again.

when they added the no proc to all of cyro, i both: played cyro less, and didnt change my gear off of proc gear because i knew it wasnt going to stick lol

It has stuck so far but hopefully that will change soon. Raven is dead these days.

Necrotech_Master

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

shadyjane62 wrote: »

To answer your question, there is no point. I haven't changed armor since no-proc. Figured it would just come round again.

when they added the no proc to all of cyro, i both: played cyro less, and didnt change my gear off of proc gear because i knew it wasnt going to stick lol

It has stuck so far but hopefully that will change soon. Raven is dead these days.

well the first test was no procs in every campaign, but after they finished that year of useless tests they put it only in the no cp camp

i just stopped playing in the no cp/no proc camp entirely and generally refuse to play there because its insanely boring with no procs

Destai

Marto wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

However, ZOS must recognize the problem that the 8.1.0 adjustments were too large and out of touch with the player base, including plenty of adjustments that were not requested and had no clear reason for modification. In fact, most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0. ZOS needs to explain in more detail what happened with 8.1.0, who led this part of the design, who was responsible for it, what his/her rationale was for making these changes, and whether it has changed since the end of this terrible public test, rather than being more vague. I believe this is the only way to regain player confidence. Losing player confidence is a disaster for any game.

That's exactly what the PTS is for, no?

It's for releasing adjustments that ZOS themselves know aren't perfect. But they aren't sure which way to go about them.

I doubt anyone in the combat team felt 8.1.0 was perfect. Some devs probably thought removing the scaling of LA was over-nerfing. Some devs probably thought that having 2s ticks on ground AoE was not going to make a noticeable difference. They probably had the exact same arguments we forum users had.

It's why it was released for testing. It's why they asked for feedback.

And 8.1.2 , 8.1.3, and 8.1.4 are the answer to that feedback.

ZOS' answer was :

"You're right, oakensoul was overnerfed in mid to end-game PVE. We'll follow your suggestion and add slayer and aegis to it."
"You're right, light attacks not scaling is too much of a nerf for low-tier players. We'll make them scale again, but with different calculations."
"You're right. Making everything 30s makes the combat to slow. But we think having some things be 30s does help accessibility a lot. Plus, we think having some abilities be short and some long makes the game less repetitive."
"You're right, reducing damage of LA/HA makes HA builds too weak. Here's a reworked empower to help with that. But now it only works with HA, since we think the damage of LA on 8.1.3 is on a good spot."

You're saying "most of the work from 8.1.2 to 8.1.4 was spent on fixing the massive damage caused by 8.1.0." as if that's a bad thing. When that is exactly how the PTS is supposed to work.

I think the problem was how jarring the initial proposal was and having to walk back from there. It's alarming that it started there. I am happy they've adjusted things in response, which showed that they do listen somewhat and that PTS has some kind of value. My concern is that it took an uproar for them to see it needed a lot more attention.

ThirdEye_PULSE

Mazio wrote: »

I think there's an awful lot of ego and self importance in the ZOS team, you can almost taste it the way they talk and the comments they make.
Feels like there is a culture of superiority over the players/customers, and they absolutely refuse to give us anything we want without it 'coming at a cost'

As someone else pointed out... we think we are the customers because we pay ZOS. Unfortunately, ZOS first goal is to please the shareholders. The main goal is to make the game the most appeasing to the greatest amount of people for the most profit.

So, as long as the changes ZOS makes works towards that goal... which it seems is what accessibility is all about: they want the game so easy a Chimpanzee can play it, then all is going as planned.

They didnt expect this type of backlash. The only thing which will make them change course is the bottom line: money.

The way these things work, ZOS wont know if they messed up until a month or so after U35 goes live. If it effects their income, they will start walking it back. If they gain a bunch of new people who are the target audience with this update... then expect more of the same for the future.

We dont know the type of indepedent research ZOS is doing. Id be willing to bet they asked people why they quit their sub, ect ect and combat was probably the main answer. We dont know what this update was a reaction too on behalf of ZOS. Thats part of the problem... again, lack of communication.

VaranisArano

orgin_stadia wrote: »

I have but one question. What's the point in learning new rotations, weaving and whatnot if it's constantly changed every 3 months?

neferpitou73

VaranisArano wrote: »

orgin_stadia wrote: »

I have but one question. What's the point in learning new rotations, weaving and whatnot if it's constantly changed every 3 months?

Now, it makes sense! The hamsters have revolted and taken over ZoS after being abused to run the servers for years.

Marto

Destai wrote: »

I think the problem was how jarring the initial proposal was and having to walk back from there. It's alarming that it started there. I am happy they've adjusted things in response, which showed that they do listen somewhat and that PTS has some kind of value. My concern is that it took an uproar for them to see it needed a lot more attention.

Just because there was an uproar doesn't mean an uproar is needed. It took literally days for ZOS to "admit" their changes needed adjustments. They never stubbornly said they were always right, nor did they fight or push back against the community.

In other patches, in previous years, ZOS was definitely more stubborn and less receptive. I know what those situations look like. But U35 is not one of them.

YandereGirlfriend

Marto wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

I think the problem was how jarring the initial proposal was and having to walk back from there. It's alarming that it started there. I am happy they've adjusted things in response, which showed that they do listen somewhat and that PTS has some kind of value. My concern is that it took an uproar for them to see it needed a lot more attention.

Just because there was an uproar doesn't mean an uproar is needed. It took literally days for ZOS to "admit" their changes needed adjustments. They never stubbornly said they were always right, nor did they fight or push back against the community.

In other patches, in previous years, ZOS was definitely more stubborn and less receptive. I know what those situations look like. But U35 is not one of them.

Contrast that with how the entire forum Warden community has told them that nerfs to the class were devastating and unreasonable... and we're getting them (plus even harsher nerfs) anyway.

That is a situation where feedback is 1000% NOT being listened to.

neferpitou73

Marto wrote: »

Destai wrote: »

I think the problem was how jarring the initial proposal was and having to walk back from there. It's alarming that it started there. I am happy they've adjusted things in response, which showed that they do listen somewhat and that PTS has some kind of value. My concern is that it took an uproar for them to see it needed a lot more attention.

Just because there was an uproar doesn't mean an uproar is needed. It took literally days for ZOS to "admit" their changes needed adjustments. They never stubbornly said they were always right, nor did they fight or push back against the community.

In other patches, in previous years, ZOS was definitely more stubborn and less receptive. I know what those situations look like. But U35 is not one of them.

And it took us literally minutes to see the problems with the patch notes. You mean to tell me that people who get paid to develop this game over months didn't see the problems we saw in a single readthrough of the patch notes. That is the bigger issue here.