NB surprise attack - That's a nerf, not a buff

Fhritz

Taking away was a bad idea, but for a 100% crit, why not. However, now with this 4 sec cooldown the crit isn't as powerful as the live stun. We need either a real buff or not doing any change honestly, because SA is fine on live.

Firstmep

Fhritz wrote: »

Taking away was a bad idea, but for a 100% crit, why not. However, now with this 4 sec cooldown the crit isn't as powerful as the live stun. We need either a real buff or not doing any change honestly, because SA is fine on live.

Well imagine how the other classes feel.
Crystal wep, molten whip and jabs all got much more heavy handed nerfs.

Fhritz

Firstmep wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

Taking away was a bad idea, but for a 100% crit, why not. However, now with this 4 sec cooldown the crit isn't as powerful as the live stun. We need either a real buff or not doing any change honestly, because SA is fine on live.

Well imagine how the other classes feel.
Crystal wep, molten whip and jabs all got much more heavy handed nerfs.

Yeah, I know, sadly

universal_wrath

Fhritz wrote: »

Taking away was a bad idea, but for a 100% crit, why not. However, now with this 4 sec cooldown the crit isn't as powerful as the live stun. We need either a real buff or not doing any change honestly, because SA is fine on live.

Here is a thought, probably need testing. Does the cooldown effect you normal/critical chance? Like say you are 100% critical chance and you crit with SA from back, since the garnteed crit from the skill itself goes on cooldown, does it also effect your overall 100% critical chance to apply more critical strikes during the cool down?

birdik

Agree here, thinking about manablade now coz concealed)

Tommy_The_Gun

With the changes to SA and it no longer having a stun, I think I will simply change to a different spamable. Stun was very important as it either gave you utility or a chance to land other single target skill.

Right now, It seems that all I am getting is a guaranteed crit chance every 4 seconds that has a very complicated conditions. I have to do it after cooldown, but also I need to position myself properly a be lucky for the server to register that. Too many "ifs". And as a NB I already have a guaranteed crit with cloak and on top of that I also have decent crit chance, so SA crits often anyways.

I guess it all boils down to:
- Surprise Attack: guarantee crit every 4 seconds.
Or:
- Concealed Weapon: 10% damage bonus from all sources for 5 seconds.

Idk about you, but the above choice is kinda obvious. Even for a stamina - based NB. I am also considering Dizzying Swing to replace Sunspire Attack, but idk... Concealed Weapon looks so nice... and you also get minor expedition...

Surprised Attack will still be decent spamable, but I would not consider it to be "one of the best spamables in the game" next patch. Currently it is, but after next update it will drop one or two tiers lower - to the decent / ok-ish category.

Falcon_of_light

Firstmep wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

Taking away was a bad idea, but for a 100% crit, why not. However, now with this 4 sec cooldown the crit isn't as powerful as the live stun. We need either a real buff or not doing any change honestly, because SA is fine on live.

Well imagine how the other classes feel.
Crystal wep, molten whip and jabs all got much more heavy handed nerfs.

Oh, SA hit twice per 1 usage? No? Or maybe SA aoe? No? So why u justify nerf of balanced ability because zos nerfed overtuned ones?

Jeezye

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

With the changes to SA and it no longer having a stun, I think I will simply change to a different spamable. Stun was very important as it either gave you utility or a chance to land other single target skill.

Right now, It seems that all I am getting is a guaranteed crit chance every 4 seconds that has a very complicated conditions. I have to do it after cooldown, but also I need to position myself properly a be lucky for the server to register that. Too many "ifs". And as a NB I already have a guaranteed crit with cloak and on top of that I also have decent crit chance, so SA crits often anyways.

I guess it all boils down to:
- Surprise Attack: guarantee crit every 4 seconds.
Or:
- Concealed Weapon: 10% damage bonus from all sources for 5 seconds.

Idk about you, but the above choice is kinda obvious. Even for a stamina - based NB. I am also considering Dizzying Swing to replace Sunspire Attack, but idk... Concealed Weapon looks so nice... and you also get minor expedition...

Surprised Attack will still be decent spamable, but I would not consider it to be "one of the best spamables in the game" next patch. Currently it is, but after next update it will drop one or two tiers lower - to the decent / ok-ish category.

BS, you forgot about free minor breach on stamina which is also very strong.
Stammblades are in a great spot compared to Magicka oriented players.
Having a stun on one of the strongest spammavles was never a good idea.

Both skills are strong, much stronger than the rest of the NB toolkit or other class spammables

Minalan

It must be hard getting one small nerf after 20 consecutive patches of nb buffs.

Falcon_of_light

Jeezye wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

With the changes to SA and it no longer having a stun, I think I will simply change to a different spamable. Stun was very important as it either gave you utility or a chance to land other single target skill.

Right now, It seems that all I am getting is a guaranteed crit chance every 4 seconds that has a very complicated conditions. I have to do it after cooldown, but also I need to position myself properly a be lucky for the server to register that. Too many "ifs". And as a NB I already have a guaranteed crit with cloak and on top of that I also have decent crit chance, so SA crits often anyways.

I guess it all boils down to:
- Surprise Attack: guarantee crit every 4 seconds.
Or:
- Concealed Weapon: 10% damage bonus from all sources for 5 seconds.

Idk about you, but the above choice is kinda obvious. Even for a stamina - based NB. I am also considering Dizzying Swing to replace Sunspire Attack, but idk... Concealed Weapon looks so nice... and you also get minor expedition...

Surprised Attack will still be decent spamable, but I would not consider it to be "one of the best spamables in the game" next patch. Currently it is, but after next update it will drop one or two tiers lower - to the decent / ok-ish category.

BS, you forgot about free minor breach on stamina which is also very strong.
Stammblades are in a great spot compared to Magicka oriented players.
Having a stun on one of the strongest spammavles was never a good idea.

Both skills are strong, much stronger than the rest of the NB toolkit or other class spammables

Yea, but nightblade doesnt have something like streak. So yeah, maybe nb gets streak and sorc get SA? Deal?

Falcon_of_light

Minalan wrote: »

It must be hard getting one small nerf after 20 consecutive patches of nb buffs.

Are u play another game, [snip]?

[edited for flaming]

Tommy_The_Gun

Jeezye wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

With the changes to SA and it no longer having a stun, I think I will simply change to a different spamable. Stun was very important as it either gave you utility or a chance to land other single target skill.

Right now, It seems that all I am getting is a guaranteed crit chance every 4 seconds that has a very complicated conditions. I have to do it after cooldown, but also I need to position myself properly a be lucky for the server to register that. Too many "ifs". And as a NB I already have a guaranteed crit with cloak and on top of that I also have decent crit chance, so SA crits often anyways.

I guess it all boils down to:
- Surprise Attack: guarantee crit every 4 seconds.
Or:
- Concealed Weapon: 10% damage bonus from all sources for 5 seconds.

Idk about you, but the above choice is kinda obvious. Even for a stamina - based NB. I am also considering Dizzying Swing to replace Sunspire Attack, but idk... Concealed Weapon looks so nice... and you also get minor expedition...

Surprised Attack will still be decent spamable, but I would not consider it to be "one of the best spamables in the game" next patch. Currently it is, but after next update it will drop one or two tiers lower - to the decent / ok-ish category.

BS, you forgot about free minor breach on stamina which is also very strong.
Stammblades are in a great spot compared to Magicka oriented players.
Having a stun on one of the strongest spammavles was never a good idea.

Both skills are strong, much stronger than the rest of the NB toolkit or other class spammables

Minor Breach comes from Sundered status effect that SA has. And if you read some wiki, it says: The Sundered status can be applied by dealing Physical Damage
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat
It can not proc from LA/HA, but any skill or set that deals Physical Damage can proc this effect. SA just have it as a guaranteed effect.

Falcon_of_light

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Jeezye wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

With the changes to SA and it no longer having a stun, I think I will simply change to a different spamable. Stun was very important as it either gave you utility or a chance to land other single target skill.

Right now, It seems that all I am getting is a guaranteed crit chance every 4 seconds that has a very complicated conditions. I have to do it after cooldown, but also I need to position myself properly a be lucky for the server to register that. Too many "ifs". And as a NB I already have a guaranteed crit with cloak and on top of that I also have decent crit chance, so SA crits often anyways.

I guess it all boils down to:
- Surprise Attack: guarantee crit every 4 seconds.
Or:
- Concealed Weapon: 10% damage bonus from all sources for 5 seconds.

Idk about you, but the above choice is kinda obvious. Even for a stamina - based NB. I am also considering Dizzying Swing to replace Sunspire Attack, but idk... Concealed Weapon looks so nice... and you also get minor expedition...

Surprised Attack will still be decent spamable, but I would not consider it to be "one of the best spamables in the game" next patch. Currently it is, but after next update it will drop one or two tiers lower - to the decent / ok-ish category.

BS, you forgot about free minor breach on stamina which is also very strong.
Stammblades are in a great spot compared to Magicka oriented players.
Having a stun on one of the strongest spammavles was never a good idea.

Both skills are strong, much stronger than the rest of the NB toolkit or other class spammables

Minor Breach comes from Sundered status effect that SA has. And if you read some wiki, it says: The Sundered status can be applied by dealing Physical Damage
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Combat
It can not proc from LA/HA, but any skill or set that deals Physical Damage can proc this effect. SA just have it as a guaranteed effect.

Yea, sundered so overpowered, so maybe crystal weapons will have 1 stack but sunder armor, and SA will have 2 stacks instead? How sorcs think about it?)

Minalan

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

It must be hard getting one small nerf after 20 consecutive patches of nb buffs.

Are u play another game,[snip]?

I was trying to be funny. If nightblades dislike this patch it really must be bad.

[edited to remove quote]

Firstmep

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Fhritz wrote: »

Taking away was a bad idea, but for a 100% crit, why not. However, now with this 4 sec cooldown the crit isn't as powerful as the live stun. We need either a real buff or not doing any change honestly, because SA is fine on live.

Well imagine how the other classes feel.
Crystal wep, molten whip and jabs all got much more heavy handed nerfs.

Oh, SA hit twice per 1 usage? No? Or maybe SA aoe? No? So why u justify nerf of balanced ability because zos nerfed overtuned ones?

Well, actually, that's subjective.
All those other skills got hit way harder than suprise attack.
At least suprise attack still deals good damage.
Meanwhile jabs is going to tickle people.

Mayrael

Minalan wrote: »

It must be hard getting one small nerf after 20 consecutive patches of nb buffs.

After 40 patches of consecutive nerfhammers yup it is. They have nerfed every usefull tool in NB's aresnal and now they are trying to buff useless skills nobody will use anyway, because they need complete rework not buffs. 100*0 still gives you 0.

Runkorko

Adapt, its a good change.
It hurts only spammers. Dont be a spammer.
having stun on demand is way better than kust spam one key.
One of the few good changes in this patch

xDeusEJRx

I would be fine with the change if they fixed the clunkiness of nightblade skills in the first place.

Reason why class clutches on broken positional stun is because most of our skills are unreliable to use.

Ambush/Lotus fan has a cast time

Incap/soul harvest has a cast time

Soul Tether has a cast time

Merciless Resolve/Relentless focus has a slow travel time

Fear was severely bad to synergize with any of our burst abilities because of the reasons listed above.

These are literally the reasons why nightblade is not great to play with, even with all the damage we have in our kit. None of that is worth crap when our toolkit has NO synergy whatsoever. At the very minimum if they fixed Merciless/Relentless bow travel time that would make this nerf not hurt nearly as much but the bow is still very awful.

I miss my hits with assassins will when my target is literally in the middle of breaking free(how can you dodge my attack while breaking free lmao).

Adding another combo(fear or medium weave) on top of an already clunky toolkit just worsens the already bad toolkit and is the reason why this change is just not good any way you try to break it down. The positional stun might've been pretty bad concept, but they should've fixed the problem skills which they still haven't.

shadyjane62

Good.

boi_anachronism_

Minalan wrote: »

It must be hard getting one small nerf after 20 consecutive patches of nb buffs.

Lol did you read the elswyer patch? It is literally 2 pages of night blade nerfs. The class was just starting to recover and it is exponentially harder to play then any other class by a mile because of the proc bow rotation.

master_vanargand

The dice rolled a 4.
The torture this game inflicts has no meaning.

birdik

Agree here

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I would be fine with the change if they fixed the clunkiness of nightblade skills in the first place.

Reason why class clutches on broken positional stun is because most of our skills are unreliable to use.

Ambush/Lotus fan has a cast time

Incap/soul harvest has a cast time

Soul Tether has a cast time

Merciless Resolve/Relentless focus has a slow travel time

Fear was severely bad to synergize with any of our burst abilities because of the reasons listed above.

These are literally the reasons why nightblade is not great to play with, even with all the damage we have in our kit. None of that is worth crap when our toolkit has NO synergy whatsoever. At the very minimum if they fixed Merciless/Relentless bow travel time that would make this nerf not hurt nearly as much but the bow is still very awful.

I miss my hits with assassins will when my target is literally in the middle of breaking free(how can you dodge my attack while breaking free lmao).

Adding another combo(fear or medium weave) on top of an already clunky toolkit just worsens the already bad toolkit and is the reason why this change is just not good any way you try to break it down. The positional stun might've been pretty bad concept, but they should've fixed the problem skills which they still haven't.

i REALLY cant understand why ZOS ignore that, these are real problems to be solved ( and major brutality/sorcery on leeching strikes). Other +- fine

Make teleport strike stun again!

katorga

It is a gigantic buff, just use the other morph.

olsborg

I dont mind loosing the stun at all, enables you to control when to stun someone and not having it happen at random, because you never know when SA currently will stun because positioning and desyncs in positioning is impossible to control. (lagg)

FrankonPC

Fhritz wrote: »

Taking away was a bad idea, but for a 100% crit, why not. However, now with this 4 sec cooldown the crit isn't as powerful as the live stun. We need either a real buff or not doing any change honestly, because SA is fine on live.

i think it's a buff personally. going to function much better now than it did for lining up burst

FrankonPC

olsborg wrote: »

I dont mind loosing the stun at all, enables you to control when to stun someone and not having it happen at random, because you never know when SA currently will stun because positioning and desyncs in positioning is impossible to control. (lagg)

what he said

MentalxHammer

As someone with over 5k hours on the class, no it doesn’t need a buff.

The real issue is the nerf to dark cloak. It makes no sense that vigor would be reverted to live healing values and dark cloak gets severely nerfed in PvP. It’s like ZOS wants to force all NB’s to use shadowy disguise, which I have no interest in. All this change does is diminish class variety.

Ragnaroek93

The class won't work properly as long as Incap and Bow are so delayed that you can't even hit a stunned target with them properly. Everybody except the devs get it. There's no point in trying to kill someone with a proper build who just starts rolling or blocking after getting hit by either Incap or Bow.

Tommy_The_Gun

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The class won't work properly as long as Incap and Bow are so delayed that you can't even hit a stunned target with them properly. Everybody except the devs get it. There's no point in trying to kill someone with a proper build who just starts rolling or blocking after getting hit by either Incap or Bow.

Yep. And "No Stun" on Veiled Strike will actually make it even harder to pull of the NB burst combo. Good players will probably adapt somehow, but the ones who are just trying out the class will get a hard time figuring this out. The entry skill level for NB yet again went up, in a patch that was supposed to be all about accessibility...

Firstmep

Well they also buffed jabs, by making it shorter and deal less damage so you can weave it better with weaker light attacks.
Seems like suprise attack got off easy.

Falcon_of_light

Runkorko wrote: »

Adapt, its a good change.
It hurts only spammers. Dont be a spammer.
having stun on demand is way better than kust spam one key.
One of the few good changes in this patch

No problem so streak will not stun anymore and not ignoring block? or maybe templars lose their unblockable javeline stun? No?
Nightblade balanced abour SA, now its nerfed to the ground and nb must give up on execute to get cc, already manathirsty stamina spec must use one more magica ability, so nb need to use sustain backbar instead of buff\deffence one, its chain nb in pvp will dissapear and only bombers will be somehow viable. Its disaster nerf, [snip]

[edited for flaming]