Do the Veiled Strike walkbacks make it weaker than live?

DrSlaughtr

So with the latest PTS patch, we once again catered to the most vocal people who don't understand the way skills work. The CC was removed from Surprise Attack to make way for the crit strike flank ability, and now that has been driven into the ground with a 4 second cooldown. For a class that needs to hit hard and fast, that seems kinda pointless in both PVE and PVP. The stun was much more useful when chasing down sprinting targets. My crit % is around 50%. I'm likely going to crit in that window anyway, so what's the point?

Concealed Weapon's 300 damage after leaving stealth would have allowed stamblades to switch to mag without losing the frenzied momentum buff. Now we have a paltry 7% to 10% increase to damage, which seems like a nerf to me (I'm going to check it out to be sure). Also am I reading this correctly that there is an "in-combat" requirement to even get this bonus? So if I am not in combat, and I attack someone from stealth, do I not get the bonus?

I'm downloading the latest PTS now to check it out. I know a lot of people have been on fire over this PTS cycle (and most of it has been a little overblown). But with the nerf to caluurions, which many NBs rely on, it seemed fair to increase damage output, as our toolkit does not have the same raw power as other classes. Namely DK. We need CCs and crit damage to succeed. We've lost both.

CameraBeardThePirate

The stun being removed is a buff for PvP for good players. Being able to control your stun with an off balance medium weave is 100x better than stunning every cast.

Runkorko

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The stun being removed is a buff for PvP for good players. Being able to control your stun with an off balance medium weave is 100x better than stunning every cast.

On pc NA maybe. Try doing this in EU lag fest.
I do like the change tbh, but i feel the NBs

MashmalloMan

ninjagank wrote: »

So with the latest PTS patch, we once again catered to the most vocal people who don't understand the way skills work. The CC was removed from Surprise Attack to make way for the crit strike flank ability, and now that has been driven into the ground with a 4 second cooldown. For a class that needs to hit hard and fast, that seems kinda pointless in both PVE and PVP. The stun was much more useful when chasing down sprinting targets. My crit % is around 50%. I'm likely going to crit in that window anyway, so what's the point?

Still one of, if not the strongest and most fun spammable in the game. Trading a stun for 100% crit every 4s is a fair trade, 100% crit chance with no CD was overtuned, I'm happy they managed to keep it, but found a way to balance it out a bit more..

It still gives off balance (which you can medium weave for a stun still), sundered for more damage+minor breach, and ranks up in damage done. It's a great skill, just count your blessings it wasn't given the Jabs/Crystal Weapon treatment.

ninjagank wrote: »

Concealed Weapon's 300 damage after leaving stealth would have allowed stamblades to switch to mag without losing the frenzied momentum buff. Now we have a paltry 7% to 10% increase to damage, which seems like a nerf to me (I'm going to check it out to be sure). Also am I reading this correctly that there is an "in-combat" requirement to even get this bonus? So if I am not in combat, and I attack someone from stealth, do I not get the bonus?

Maybe I'm wrong because the dev's are stingy about their comments, but it seems to me like they realized as many of us did, that NB's already get 300 weapon/spell damage from Grim Focus, when you coupled week 1s change with Grim Focus and Vampirsim which is practically a 4th skill line for NB at this point, you're looking at +900 weapon/spell damage out of stealth.

I think changing it from damage to damage done was to focus on improving the spammable rather than the entire NB kit which was maybe their original intention without giving it much thought. 10% does seem kind of weak though, it doesn't have Sundered or 100% crit, the interaction with major expedition is odd, but I think they're trying to add some flavour to mag NB's, the speed theme and reinforcing the use of Path. To that, I commend. The skill feels more distinct.

Edit: Nevermind, 10% damage done is fantastic... I thought it was only for the skill. This was probably done to avoid it increasing healing. Smart.

ninjagank wrote: »

I'm downloading the latest PTS now to check it out. I know a lot of people have been on fire over this PTS cycle (and most of it has been a little overblown). But with the nerf to caluurions, which many NBs rely on, it seemed fair to increase damage output, as our toolkit does not have the same raw power as other classes. Namely DK. We need CCs and crit damage to succeed. We've lost both.

Not a lot of consideration was given to buffing other tools in other class kits either. ZOS just blanket nerfs things without seeing the larger picture. Like Jabs was very strong, but they didn't do anything to improve or incentivise the rest of the Templar kit which just makes them feel like bleh. Remember empower and how Templar could get high uptime using Empowering Sweep or Solag Barrage? Well yeah, thats gone unless you want to spam shock heavy's.

The change to Beam was incredibly unnecessary and was done based on spreadsheet, dummy parsing, ZOS logic instead of actually playing the game. Be prepared for more 1 tick deletes in pvp from 28m away the instant your health gets low.

Firstmep

I think suprise attack change is good.
Spectral bow should be burst skill, not the spammable ability.
Off balance stun will make it much easier to land merciless.
Also concealed weapon looks juicy as hell, 10% dmg is pretty big. And it kept the minor expedition too.
Been a while since I was this excited to play magblade tbh.

Firstmep

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

MashmalloMan

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Firstmep

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Thanks, had to uninstall PTS to make space for other stuff, will keep my eyes glued here.

MashmalloMan

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Thanks, had to uninstall PTS to make space for other stuff, will keep my eyes glued here.

Yep, it procs anytime major expedition is refreshed. The in combat thing, only applies to expedition. You can still sneak/invis to get the bonus out of combat.

robpr

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Standing in own Twisting Path refreshes the buff duration + 5s when Path ends. Also confirmed by built-in buff tracker.

Didgerion

Devs just shooting themselves in the leg. Why adding 4s cooldown? Have they fixed the lag and there is room for new cooldowns? Why not just removing the crit condition and buff the skill by 5% instead. Let players spec into crit chance if they want more crits!
Now the servers need to do more work to calculate it and the players need to scratch their heads and find the new sweet spot for the crit chance.

Also I guarantee you that the skill will require further nerfs for pvp. It still got 100% crit chance when gankin. Cloak + Incap + Surprise Attack + execute... rinse and repeat.

velt88_ESO

Not going to lie, it's a pretty useless change in my eyes.

Most NBs are already running 50% crit at least... you're already critting more than once every 4 seconds with Surprise attack if you're spamming it... and you're already going to crit with it if you open out of stealth while using the crit / stealth cloak morph.

It looks neat on paper but you're not really gaining anything tangible.

DrSlaughtr

velt88_ESO wrote: »

Not going to lie, it's a pretty useless change in my eyes.

Most NBs are already running 50% crit at least... you're already critting more than once every 4 seconds with Surprise attack if you're spamming it... and you're already going to crit with it if you open out of stealth while using the crit / stealth cloak morph.

It looks neat on paper but you're not really gaining anything tangible.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Buffed up I hit about 50% crit chance. You think I'm not already hitting crits in that 4 second cooldown? It makes the flank crit useless because it's unnecessary. I didn't care about losing the CC initially. But to also be rolled back on that seems unfair. And no I don't care what is happening with other classes.

And per someone above, it's disingenuous to use Grim Focus as a complaint against buffing concealed via w/s damage. The whole point of the buff was to allow the mag morph to compete with stam. Stam players also use focus. Not to mention the fact that is completely unreliable. If you get it to five, you're just as likely to immediately lose before you can either proc it or take advantage of the damage buff. Maybe if they fixed the conditions on this skill, it would be less an issue.

casparian

Getting a Major Slayer that works in PVP is pretty nice. Concealed Weapon now looking very good.

MashmalloMan

ninjagank wrote: »

velt88_ESO wrote: »

Not going to lie, it's a pretty useless change in my eyes.

Most NBs are already running 50% crit at least... you're already critting more than once every 4 seconds with Surprise attack if you're spamming it... and you're already going to crit with it if you open out of stealth while using the crit / stealth cloak morph.

It looks neat on paper but you're not really gaining anything tangible.

And per someone above, it's disingenuous to use Grim Focus as a complaint against buffing concealed via w/s damage. The whole point of the buff was to allow the mag morph to compete with stam. Stam players also use focus. Not to mention the fact that is completely unreliable. If you get it to five, you're just as likely to immediately lose before you can either proc it or take advantage of the damage buff. Maybe if they fixed the conditions on this skill, it would be less an issue.

How is it disengenuous to see that giving a combined total of +900 weapon/spell damage for NB's kit which effects healing is probably too powerful? Did you really think it made sense that 2 skills in the NB kit gave 300 weapon/spell damage? It's almost like ZOS forgot.

The shift from 300 damage to 10% damage done gives the same effect without touching your healing, that seems entirely intentional. It is barely a nerf damage wise, if at all. Unamed 10% damage done is nuts.

Literally 2 of the best spammables in the game. How does 10% damage done and minor expedition not compete with Surprise Attack?

Plus, the 10% now applies from major expedition which gives it a unique interaction with the functionality of the skill having a focus on speed. It feel's more thought out because a mag NB is more likely to use something like path, which applies major expedition once a second. This also gives mag NB a huge buff for pve where the previous design wouldn't of worked.

Tommy_The_Gun

I find the whole situation with Surprise Attack kinda (from the lack of better term) um... hilarious ? I guess we can call it "Surprise Attack drama":

1. ZOS Buffs Concealed Weapon, because no one is using it (magicka melee spamable and most magicka builds are ranged because staves).
2. ZOS then buffs Surprise Attack, so it would have same amount of effects as Concealed Weapon.
3. The result is that they look at it, and remove one effect from all morphs (stun).
4. Surprise Attack is now left without a stun, but with a guaranteed crit strike when flanking. A lot of people are concerned that it will be too strong in PvP (but they forget that Oakensoul wont have Major Force next patch & Caluurion is getting nerfed).
5. Next thing that happens is ZOS adds a cool down on Surprise Attack guaranteed flank crit, effectively making the skill very niche and close to useless for builds with 37%+ Crit chance.

So now we have:
A single target spamable with a short range (only 5 meters, others have 7), that can be dodged, that can proc off-balance & can crit every 4 seconds... if you managed to flank the enemy on top of that.... that is so many conditions stacking on each other... lel

Don't get me wrong, Surprise Attack is overall one of the best stamina spamables in the game, but, but... next patch, for an "overall" skill - it will drop at least 1 tier down. At least, because it may drop even lower. It still will be good, but something tells me that many stam NB that use 2-handed will switch to Dizzying Swing.

What is also surprising (no pun intended) is that no one is talking about the other morph: Concealed Weapon:

10% more damage from all sources ? Are you kidding me ? Passively ? All I need to do is to exit stealth ? Or re-cast Race Against Time to refresh Major Expedition while I am still in-stealth ? I do pretty much nothing and passively get unique 10% dmg bonus, that can stack with other bonuses ? Really ?!

I can not see how it wont be abused at all lol. Bomber ? Yep. You go out of stealth and you get 10% dmg bonus for all your proc sets. Nice. Or Snipe. Remember those ? I am at range, 35 meters away, and as soon as I start charging snipe - I am revealed and I get 10% dmg bonus. Cool

^ This will probably be the morph of choice for both stam & mag, as it is clearly better. Especially is you consider that you can still have guaranteed crit with cloak. If Veiled Strike will be nerfed in the future - it will be because of this. 10% dmg bonus to all sources that can stack with other % bonuses is way, way stronger than a guaranteed crit melee spmable could ever hope to be.

You may call it a buff or nerf... because it is both (so um.... burf ? ). It is a substantial nerf for pretty much every build, except for PvP gankers. And this is something that I find concerning. Why are NB gankers (mag & stam) getting buffed at the expense of... pretty much every other NB build out there ? It is kinda um... dangerous move. I don't get it. And I am a NB main....

xDeusEJRx

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The stun being removed is a buff for PvP for good players. Being able to control your stun with an off balance medium weave is 100x better than stunning every cast.

I highly disagree. In Open world pvp, it's hard to stick to one target, unless you're an invisibility spamming nightblade. You hit 1 person, and they run away or their teammates swarm you or body block the one person you want to medium weave stun.

Off balance stunning is never reliable unless you play shadowy disguise(obviously, they can't avoid if you follow up medium weave out of invisibility). It's nice for nightblades who can cloak out and hit that person from stealth but it's just a straight nerf for people who like play nightblade with dark cloak as they can just see the medium weave coming at them and roll dodge or simply choose to just run away.

I don't like the change personally.

MashmalloMan

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The stun being removed is a buff for PvP for good players. Being able to control your stun with an off balance medium weave is 100x better than stunning every cast.

I highly disagree. In Open world pvp, it's hard to stick to one target, unless you're an invisibility spamming nightblade. You hit 1 person, and they run away or their teammates swarm you or body block the one person you want to medium weave stun.

Off balance stunning is never reliable unless you play shadowy disguise(obviously, they can't avoid if you follow up medium weave out of invisibility). It's nice for nightblades who can cloak out and hit that person from stealth but it's just a straight nerf for people who like play nightblade with dark cloak as they can just see the medium weave coming at them and roll dodge or simply choose to just run away.

I don't like the change personally.

Don't forget their reasoning for the change was that NB's can now better rely on their stun specific skills like every other class has to for a non Shadowy Disguise build. It was odd that they added the stun to a spammable to begin with after making a huge point to remove it from Dizzy Swing, which also provides off balance.

I wouldn't say removing the stun is a nerf, it's just correcting a mistake that should of never been added in the first place using ZOS's own logic, but apparently they did it because they knew the NB Fear's were hot dumpster fire.

Doesn't make sense to leave the fears in a bad place for multiple patches and overbuff a spammable, but apparently thats what happened?

xDeusEJRx

MashmalloMan wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The stun being removed is a buff for PvP for good players. Being able to control your stun with an off balance medium weave is 100x better than stunning every cast.

I highly disagree. In Open world pvp, it's hard to stick to one target, unless you're an invisibility spamming nightblade. You hit 1 person, and they run away or their teammates swarm you or body block the one person you want to medium weave stun.

Off balance stunning is never reliable unless you play shadowy disguise(obviously, they can't avoid if you follow up medium weave out of invisibility). It's nice for nightblades who can cloak out and hit that person from stealth but it's just a straight nerf for people who like play nightblade with dark cloak as they can just see the medium weave coming at them and roll dodge or simply choose to just run away.

I don't like the change personally.

Don't forget their reasoning for the change was that NB's can now better rely on their stun specific skills like every other class has to for a non Shadowy Disguise build. It was odd that they added the stun to a spammable to begin with after making a huge point to remove it from Dizzy Swing, which also provides off balance.

I wouldn't say removing the stun is a nerf, it's just correcting a mistake that should of never been added in the first place using ZOS's own logic, but apparently they did it because they knew the NB Fear's were hot dumpster fire.

Doesn't make sense to leave the fears in a bad place for multiple patches and overbuff a spammable, but apparently thats what happened?

I would have no problems with using fear for a change were it not every part of our burst toolkit is limited due to cast times/travel times.

Fear > incap/soul harvest > merciless/relentless focus. That combo is gonna be terrible to use because of cast time of incap/soul harvest plus slow travel time of the bow. And trying to rely on medium weave stunning is also not gonna be good unless you can just cloak away prior to it.

For dark cloak nightblades it's just a downgrade for us on top of the already nerfed dark cloak. I get nightblade is "supposed to be the stealth class" but I'm a nightblade just as much as a cloakblade is yet this playstyle is just continually nerfed patch after patch for no good reason and for the longest time hasn't even benefitted from some of the class skills due to being tied to invisibility(like how concealed weapon has been)

The fact the kit straight up does no synergize at all with dark cloak players make me wonder why they even continue to keep dark cloak in the game

DrSlaughtr

Listen, if you are going to tell me "use fear" as a solution to losing the only way we can reliably chase down kiters, then we aren't going to agree on anything. Maybe if it actually worked well (it doens't) AND maybe if I didn't have to slot multiple passive skills just to get my damage remotely close to other classes, then I wouldn't have any issue fitting fear onto my bars.

Either way, let's focus on concealed weapon. The image below is from the PTS.

I don't understand the "in combat" requirement for a class that operates from stealth.

They need to clarify if this will proc when attacking -while not in combat-. So if I roll into a siege and go after a target while NOT IN COMBAT, will the condition proc on my first strike (like Stygian), or will I have to cloak AGAIN and attack AGAIN to get the proc? If it is the former, then okay. If it is the latter, then that's just silly and makes it useless.

Even if you're a bomber and you force yourself in combat with an inferno LA or HA, there's a good chance the moment you cloak and move in, you lose the combat condition. This is why Grim Focus fails so often (once again, pointing out to the person above who thinks it's some massive advantage). The game is very quick to kick NBs out of combat, except of course when we're having to sneak from keep to keep. I literally lose Focus multiple times a session when I'm surrounded by enemies, actively attacking. But I hit cloak or bar swap and boom, no combat. Bye bye focus.

Tommy_The_Gun

ninjagank wrote: »

Just by looking at this, I can say that this will be the morph of choice, probably even for a stamina builds. 10% damage done from all sources, even for 5 seconds is kinda insane. Especially if it is a unique buff that can stack with other damage done % modifiers. Because all you need to do is to re-cast skill (and probably passive too) that gives Major expedition. Bow Passive (Hasty Retreat) or Race Against Time skill for example has it. On top of that this skill has Minor Expedition too.

Comparing this to Surprise Attack, Magicka Morph feels superior, especially if you consider that you can still have guaranteed crit with cloak and since both skills are missing the stun, then it can not be used as a "utility" stun for a Brawler build, so it will be used more like additional passive. Also, Veiled Strike in general on live server is kinda um "hard to land" more than 2 times in a row, as it is well telegraphed and for the most part (unless target is CC-ed) - they are gonna dodge it.

MashmalloMan

@ninjagank I'm not sure why you keep misquoting me or referring to me as "person", but I never said Grim Focus was OP and I'm fully aware how frustrating the skill is to use. I said ZOS probably changed the +300 damage to 10% damage done so it didn't effect your healing. Getting +900 damage from Grim Focus, Vampirism and Concealed Weapon is clearly over the top and doubling the same bonus on 2 skills in the same class kit was an odd choice.

The trade to damage done makes perfect sense imo, it's more interesting of a proc condition for what the morph does with expedition, works for brawler blades and can now be used in PVE.

ninjagank wrote: »

I don't understand the "in combat" requirement for a class that operates from stealth.

They need to clarify if this will proc when attacking -while not in combat-. So if I roll into a siege and go after a target while NOT IN COMBAT, will the condition proc on my first strike (like Stygian), or will I have to cloak AGAIN and attack AGAIN to get the proc? If it is the former, then okay. If it is the latter, then that's just silly and makes it useless.

Even if you're a bomber and you force yourself in combat with an inferno LA or HA, there's a good chance the moment you cloak and move in, you lose the combat condition. This is why Grim Focus fails so often (once again, pointing out to the person above who thinks it's some massive advantage). The game is very quick to kick NBs out of combat, except of course when we're having to sneak from keep to keep. I literally lose Focus multiple times a session when I'm surrounded by enemies, actively attacking. But I hit cloak or bar swap and boom, no combat. Bye bye focus.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Thanks, had to uninstall PTS to make space for other stuff, will keep my eyes glued here.

Yep, it procs anytime major expedition is refreshed. The in combat thing, only applies to expedition. You can still sneak/invis to get the bonus out of combat.

Already tested and clarified in my previous comment.

To add to your question, if you have major expedition before you're in combat, enter combat, then it expires or refreshes, you will get the buff.

The only condition is that you're in combat at the time of major expedition expiring or refreshing.

This also means if you have major expedition in combat, leave combat, then it expires 2s later, you will not get the bonus.

ccfeeling

I never run Concealed Weapon in PVE , it's useless skill for years , maybe give it a try this time .

Doesn't matter if someone says its OP , it gets to nerf , I'm fine to drop it atm ... maybe Magblade not worth a good class spammable ? IDK

DrSlaughtr

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@ninjagank I'm not sure why you keep misquoting me or referring to me as "person", but I never said Grim Focus was OP and I'm fully aware how frustrating the skill is to use. I said ZOS probably changed the +300 damage to 10% damage done so it didn't effect your healing. Getting +900 damage from Grim Focus, Vampirism and Concealed Weapon is clearly over the top and doubling the same bonus on 2 skills in the same class kit was an odd choice.

The trade to damage done makes perfect sense imo, it's more interesting of a proc condition for what the morph does with expedition, works for brawler blades and can now be used in PVE.

ninjagank wrote: »

I don't understand the "in combat" requirement for a class that operates from stealth.

They need to clarify if this will proc when attacking -while not in combat-. So if I roll into a siege and go after a target while NOT IN COMBAT, will the condition proc on my first strike (like Stygian), or will I have to cloak AGAIN and attack AGAIN to get the proc? If it is the former, then okay. If it is the latter, then that's just silly and makes it useless.

Even if you're a bomber and you force yourself in combat with an inferno LA or HA, there's a good chance the moment you cloak and move in, you lose the combat condition. This is why Grim Focus fails so often (once again, pointing out to the person above who thinks it's some massive advantage). The game is very quick to kick NBs out of combat, except of course when we're having to sneak from keep to keep. I literally lose Focus multiple times a session when I'm surrounded by enemies, actively attacking. But I hit cloak or bar swap and boom, no combat. Bye bye focus.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Thanks, had to uninstall PTS to make space for other stuff, will keep my eyes glued here.

Yep, it procs anytime major expedition is refreshed. The in combat thing, only applies to expedition. You can still sneak/invis to get the bonus out of combat.

Already tested and clarified in my previous comment.

To add to your question, if you have major expedition before you're in combat, enter combat, then it expires or refreshes, you will get the buff.

The only condition is that you're in combat at the time of major expedition expiring or refreshing.

This also means if you have major expedition in combat, leave combat, then it expires 2s later, you will not get the bonus.

You missed my concern. I'm not talking about refreshing the buff with race while in combat.

I'm taking about targeting from stealth out of combat. Will it work out stygian, where the hit out of stealth procs the buff, or will you have to be in combat already while in stealth prior to attack?

If it is the latter then it is not useful for mag melee ganking. It would be mostly useful on mag brawlers, yeah?

Tommy_The_Gun

ccfeeling wrote: »

I never run Concealed Weapon in PVE , it's useless skill for years , maybe give it a try this time .

Doesn't matter if someone says its OP , it gets to nerf , I'm fine to drop it atm ... maybe Magblade not worth a good class spammable ? IDK

Concealed Weapon on live is by any means not a bad spamable. It does pretty much same stuff as Surprise Attack.

The reason why you don't see many magicka Nightblades using it, is because it is a melee skill, that on top of that has short range (5 meters, while other spamables tend to have 7 meters). Magicka NB for the most part are ranged builds, because staves are ranged weapon. So they also tend to use ranged spamable too.

Given the nature of Veiled Strike and how infrequent one is casting it, I would not be surprised if even stamina based NBs would switch to Concealed Weapon. It just seems better, despite the magicka cost.

Right now I am thinking if I should run Dizzying Swing or Concealed Weapon on my stam NB brawler. Because for sure I am gonna drop Surprise Attack, especially given the fact that it no longer has a stun that I was using primarily for utility.

Falcon_of_light

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

So with the latest PTS patch, we once again catered to the most vocal people who don't understand the way skills work. The CC was removed from Surprise Attack to make way for the crit strike flank ability, and now that has been driven into the ground with a 4 second cooldown. For a class that needs to hit hard and fast, that seems kinda pointless in both PVE and PVP. The stun was much more useful when chasing down sprinting targets. My crit % is around 50%. I'm likely going to crit in that window anyway, so what's the point?

Still one of, if not the strongest and most fun spammable in the game. Trading a stun for 100% crit every 4s is a fair trade, 100% crit chance with no CD was overtuned, I'm happy they managed to keep it, but found a way to balance it out a bit more..

It still gives off balance (which you can medium weave for a stun still), sundered for more damage+minor breach, and ranks up in damage done. It's a great skill, just count your blessings it wasn't given the Jabs/Crystal Weapon treatment.

ninjagank wrote: »

Concealed Weapon's 300 damage after leaving stealth would have allowed stamblades to switch to mag without losing the frenzied momentum buff. Now we have a paltry 7% to 10% increase to damage, which seems like a nerf to me (I'm going to check it out to be sure). Also am I reading this correctly that there is an "in-combat" requirement to even get this bonus? So if I am not in combat, and I attack someone from stealth, do I not get the bonus?

Maybe I'm wrong because the dev's are stingy about their comments, but it seems to me like they realized as many of us did, that NB's already get 300 weapon/spell damage from Grim Focus, when you coupled week 1s change with Grim Focus and Vampirsim which is practically a 4th skill line for NB at this point, you're looking at +900 weapon/spell damage out of stealth.

I think changing it from damage to damage done was to focus on improving the spammable rather than the entire NB kit which was maybe their original intention without giving it much thought. 10% does seem kind of weak though, it doesn't have Sundered or 100% crit, the interaction with major expedition is odd, but I think they're trying to add some flavour to mag NB's, the speed theme and reinforcing the use of Path. To that, I commend. The skill feels more distinct.

Edit: Nevermind, 10% damage done is fantastic... I thought it was only for the skill. This was probably done to avoid it increasing healing. Smart.

ninjagank wrote: »

I'm downloading the latest PTS now to check it out. I know a lot of people have been on fire over this PTS cycle (and most of it has been a little overblown). But with the nerf to caluurions, which many NBs rely on, it seemed fair to increase damage output, as our toolkit does not have the same raw power as other classes. Namely DK. We need CCs and crit damage to succeed. We've lost both.

Not a lot of consideration was given to buffing other tools in other class kits either. ZOS just blanket nerfs things without seeing the larger picture. Like Jabs was very strong, but they didn't do anything to improve or incentivise the rest of the Templar kit which just makes them feel like bleh. Remember empower and how Templar could get high uptime using Empowering Sweep or Solag Barrage? Well yeah, thats gone unless you want to spam shock heavy's.

The change to Beam was incredibly unnecessary and was done based on spreadsheet, dummy parsing, ZOS logic instead of actually playing the game. Be prepared for more 1 tick deletes in pvp from 28m away the instant your health gets low.

Fair rade? Oh yeees, u must give up executioner for cc now, and guarantee crit is so usefull and defenitly will not be wasted on openers with cloacks for example? [snip] you know that its just straight nerf in pvp, big, fat, undeserved nerf.

[edited for baiting]

MashmalloMan

ninjagank wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@ninjagank I'm not sure why you keep misquoting me or referring to me as "person", but I never said Grim Focus was OP and I'm fully aware how frustrating the skill is to use. I said ZOS probably changed the +300 damage to 10% damage done so it didn't effect your healing. Getting +900 damage from Grim Focus, Vampirism and Concealed Weapon is clearly over the top and doubling the same bonus on 2 skills in the same class kit was an odd choice.

The trade to damage done makes perfect sense imo, it's more interesting of a proc condition for what the morph does with expedition, works for brawler blades and can now be used in PVE.

ninjagank wrote: »

I don't understand the "in combat" requirement for a class that operates from stealth.

They need to clarify if this will proc when attacking -while not in combat-. So if I roll into a siege and go after a target while NOT IN COMBAT, will the condition proc on my first strike (like Stygian), or will I have to cloak AGAIN and attack AGAIN to get the proc? If it is the former, then okay. If it is the latter, then that's just silly and makes it useless.

Even if you're a bomber and you force yourself in combat with an inferno LA or HA, there's a good chance the moment you cloak and move in, you lose the combat condition. This is why Grim Focus fails so often (once again, pointing out to the person above who thinks it's some massive advantage). The game is very quick to kick NBs out of combat, except of course when we're having to sneak from keep to keep. I literally lose Focus multiple times a session when I'm surrounded by enemies, actively attacking. But I hit cloak or bar swap and boom, no combat. Bye bye focus.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Thanks, had to uninstall PTS to make space for other stuff, will keep my eyes glued here.

Yep, it procs anytime major expedition is refreshed. The in combat thing, only applies to expedition. You can still sneak/invis to get the bonus out of combat.

Already tested and clarified in my previous comment.

To add to your question, if you have major expedition before you're in combat, enter combat, then it expires or refreshes, you will get the buff.

The only condition is that you're in combat at the time of major expedition expiring or refreshing.

This also means if you have major expedition in combat, leave combat, then it expires 2s later, you will not get the bonus.

You missed my concern. I'm not talking about refreshing the buff with race while in combat.

I'm taking about targeting from stealth out of combat. Will it work out stygian, where the hit out of stealth procs the buff, or will you have to be in combat already while in stealth prior to attack?

If it is the latter then it is not useful for mag melee ganking. It would be mostly useful on mag brawlers, yeah?

The part I wrote in the comment you replied to was further clarifying some tests with expedition which does require you to be in combat.

For stealth or invis, the condition is not attached to being in combat, so it does not behave like Stygian. The moment stealth or invis ends, it procs.

MashmalloMan

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

So with the latest PTS patch, we once again catered to the most vocal people who don't understand the way skills work. The CC was removed from Surprise Attack to make way for the crit strike flank ability, and now that has been driven into the ground with a 4 second cooldown. For a class that needs to hit hard and fast, that seems kinda pointless in both PVE and PVP. The stun was much more useful when chasing down sprinting targets. My crit % is around 50%. I'm likely going to crit in that window anyway, so what's the point?

Still one of, if not the strongest and most fun spammable in the game. Trading a stun for 100% crit every 4s is a fair trade, 100% crit chance with no CD was overtuned, I'm happy they managed to keep it, but found a way to balance it out a bit more..

It still gives off balance (which you can medium weave for a stun still), sundered for more damage+minor breach, and ranks up in damage done. It's a great skill, just count your blessings it wasn't given the Jabs/Crystal Weapon treatment.

ninjagank wrote: »

Concealed Weapon's 300 damage after leaving stealth would have allowed stamblades to switch to mag without losing the frenzied momentum buff. Now we have a paltry 7% to 10% increase to damage, which seems like a nerf to me (I'm going to check it out to be sure). Also am I reading this correctly that there is an "in-combat" requirement to even get this bonus? So if I am not in combat, and I attack someone from stealth, do I not get the bonus?

Maybe I'm wrong because the dev's are stingy about their comments, but it seems to me like they realized as many of us did, that NB's already get 300 weapon/spell damage from Grim Focus, when you coupled week 1s change with Grim Focus and Vampirsim which is practically a 4th skill line for NB at this point, you're looking at +900 weapon/spell damage out of stealth.

I think changing it from damage to damage done was to focus on improving the spammable rather than the entire NB kit which was maybe their original intention without giving it much thought. 10% does seem kind of weak though, it doesn't have Sundered or 100% crit, the interaction with major expedition is odd, but I think they're trying to add some flavour to mag NB's, the speed theme and reinforcing the use of Path. To that, I commend. The skill feels more distinct.

Edit: Nevermind, 10% damage done is fantastic... I thought it was only for the skill. This was probably done to avoid it increasing healing. Smart.

ninjagank wrote: »

I'm downloading the latest PTS now to check it out. I know a lot of people have been on fire over this PTS cycle (and most of it has been a little overblown). But with the nerf to caluurions, which many NBs rely on, it seemed fair to increase damage output, as our toolkit does not have the same raw power as other classes. Namely DK. We need CCs and crit damage to succeed. We've lost both.

Not a lot of consideration was given to buffing other tools in other class kits either. ZOS just blanket nerfs things without seeing the larger picture. Like Jabs was very strong, but they didn't do anything to improve or incentivise the rest of the Templar kit which just makes them feel like bleh. Remember empower and how Templar could get high uptime using Empowering Sweep or Solag Barrage? Well yeah, thats gone unless you want to spam shock heavy's.

The change to Beam was incredibly unnecessary and was done based on spreadsheet, dummy parsing, ZOS logic instead of actually playing the game. Be prepared for more 1 tick deletes in pvp from 28m away the instant your health gets low.

Fair rade? Oh yeees, u must give up executioner for cc now, and guarantee crit is so usefull and defenitly will not be wasted on openers with cloacks for example? [snip] you know that its just straight nerf in pvp, big, fat, undeserved nerf.

I'm sorry.. what?

Leave the constructive arguments to the rest of the NB's in this thread please. You're not helping at all by name calling.
[edited to remove quote]

Bokila

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@ninjagank I'm not sure why you keep misquoting me or referring to me as "person", but I never said Grim Focus was OP and I'm fully aware how frustrating the skill is to use. I said ZOS probably changed the +300 damage to 10% damage done so it didn't effect your healing. Getting +900 damage from Grim Focus, Vampirism and Concealed Weapon is clearly over the top and doubling the same bonus on 2 skills in the same class kit was an odd choice.

The trade to damage done makes perfect sense imo, it's more interesting of a proc condition for what the morph does with expedition, works for brawler blades and can now be used in PVE.

ninjagank wrote: »

I don't understand the "in combat" requirement for a class that operates from stealth.

They need to clarify if this will proc when attacking -while not in combat-. So if I roll into a siege and go after a target while NOT IN COMBAT, will the condition proc on my first strike (like Stygian), or will I have to cloak AGAIN and attack AGAIN to get the proc? If it is the former, then okay. If it is the latter, then that's just silly and makes it useless.

Even if you're a bomber and you force yourself in combat with an inferno LA or HA, there's a good chance the moment you cloak and move in, you lose the combat condition. This is why Grim Focus fails so often (once again, pointing out to the person above who thinks it's some massive advantage). The game is very quick to kick NBs out of combat, except of course when we're having to sneak from keep to keep. I literally lose Focus multiple times a session when I'm surrounded by enemies, actively attacking. But I hit cloak or bar swap and boom, no combat. Bye bye focus.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Thanks, had to uninstall PTS to make space for other stuff, will keep my eyes glued here.

Yep, it procs anytime major expedition is refreshed. The in combat thing, only applies to expedition. You can still sneak/invis to get the bonus out of combat.

Already tested and clarified in my previous comment.

To add to your question, if you have major expedition before you're in combat, enter combat, then it expires or refreshes, you will get the buff.

The only condition is that you're in combat at the time of major expedition expiring or refreshing.

This also means if you have major expedition in combat, leave combat, then it expires 2s later, you will not get the bonus.

You missed my concern. I'm not talking about refreshing the buff with race while in combat.

I'm taking about targeting from stealth out of combat. Will it work out stygian, where the hit out of stealth procs the buff, or will you have to be in combat already while in stealth prior to attack?

If it is the latter then it is not useful for mag melee ganking. It would be mostly useful on mag brawlers, yeah?

For stealth or invis, the condition is not attached to being in combat, so it does not behave like Stygian. The moment stealth or invis ends, it procs.

Are u sure? Did you test it in the pts?

DrNukenstein

I really thought they were going to buff my class for like 3 solid weeks. Even said the nerf to Caluurions was worth the buffs.

This week, it's like reading my own obituary.

DrSlaughtr

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

@ninjagank I'm not sure why you keep misquoting me or referring to me as "person", but I never said Grim Focus was OP and I'm fully aware how frustrating the skill is to use. I said ZOS probably changed the +300 damage to 10% damage done so it didn't effect your healing. Getting +900 damage from Grim Focus, Vampirism and Concealed Weapon is clearly over the top and doubling the same bonus on 2 skills in the same class kit was an odd choice.

The trade to damage done makes perfect sense imo, it's more interesting of a proc condition for what the morph does with expedition, works for brawler blades and can now be used in PVE.

ninjagank wrote: »

I don't understand the "in combat" requirement for a class that operates from stealth.

They need to clarify if this will proc when attacking -while not in combat-. So if I roll into a siege and go after a target while NOT IN COMBAT, will the condition proc on my first strike (like Stygian), or will I have to cloak AGAIN and attack AGAIN to get the proc? If it is the former, then okay. If it is the latter, then that's just silly and makes it useless.

Even if you're a bomber and you force yourself in combat with an inferno LA or HA, there's a good chance the moment you cloak and move in, you lose the combat condition. This is why Grim Focus fails so often (once again, pointing out to the person above who thinks it's some massive advantage). The game is very quick to kick NBs out of combat, except of course when we're having to sneak from keep to keep. I literally lose Focus multiple times a session when I'm surrounded by enemies, actively attacking. But I hit cloak or bar swap and boom, no combat. Bye bye focus.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I wonder if reapplying major expedition before it ends procs the concealed buff, that would be pretty strong.

Thats typically how proc conditions like this work. I'll try it out on PTS when I can.

Thanks, had to uninstall PTS to make space for other stuff, will keep my eyes glued here.

Yep, it procs anytime major expedition is refreshed. The in combat thing, only applies to expedition. You can still sneak/invis to get the bonus out of combat.

Already tested and clarified in my previous comment.

To add to your question, if you have major expedition before you're in combat, enter combat, then it expires or refreshes, you will get the buff.

The only condition is that you're in combat at the time of major expedition expiring or refreshing.

This also means if you have major expedition in combat, leave combat, then it expires 2s later, you will not get the bonus.

You missed my concern. I'm not talking about refreshing the buff with race while in combat.

I'm taking about targeting from stealth out of combat. Will it work out stygian, where the hit out of stealth procs the buff, or will you have to be in combat already while in stealth prior to attack?

If it is the latter then it is not useful for mag melee ganking. It would be mostly useful on mag brawlers, yeah?

The part I wrote in the comment you replied to was further clarifying some tests with expedition which does require you to be in combat.

For stealth or invis, the condition is not attached to being in combat, so it does not behave like Stygian. The moment stealth or invis ends, it procs.

Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.